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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:57 AM
Original message
We need a Truth Commission
Enough is enough.

What we are seeing now has been in the works for decades.

Since WWII, our country has been taken over by the same insane extremists that came to power in Germany in the 1930's. Poppy Bush and the CIA were the result of this transfer of power.

Look at the major events in this country since the early 60's. The Bay of Pigs was Poppy's first big fiasco, the Kennedy Assassination, VietNam and Operation Phoenix, Watergate, Iran-Contra, GW1, 2000 election, 9-11, GW2, 2004 election..... The common denominator in every single one of these events is guess who? Poppy Bush.

In the 1970's Poppy's children came of age and BushCo was born and here we are today. Thanks to BushCo we are now on the edge of Armageddon.

For over 40 years BushCo has been consolidating their power, enriching themselves by bankrupting the US Treasury, and infusing every government institution with their incompetent shills.

Since this take over was planned many years ago, BushCo has done everything they can to hide and cover up their actions. They knew there would be secrets and they have managed to maintain a tight control over these secrets. Poppy was the head of the CIA, he is a grandmaster spook, his whole life is a secret.

And that's the problem. EVERYTHING IS A SECRET. War and National Security is their blanket excuse. Yet, these secrets are like poison and they are destroying our country. The only people BushCo is protecting by keeping everything secret is themselves.

It's time to open Pandora's Box and let all the secrets out. It's time for us to face the truth. It's time to expose the corruption that's infecting the soul of our nation.

It's time to starting tell the truth no matter how much it's hurts. The Truth is in the National interest. Lies and Secrets are not. NO MORE SECRETS.



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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. So the 8 great years Clinton was in power are part of the master plan of
40 years BushCo has been consolidating their power. After all, Clinton is Poppy bushs best bud now. Almost like a son. "rolling eyes"

I understand your frustration, but nobody in our country is that powerful to make all the things you listed happen.

Take a deep breath and relax until Jan 19th 2009 as we watch a democrat taking the oath of office or


............. until Armageddon.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Every event I listed
has a direct connection to Poppy Bush.

Clinton blind sided them. They never expected a punk from Arkansas to actually make it. But that was before BushCo controlled the machines and could steal elections.

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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Pre - Clinton
"Poppy Bush and the CIA were the result of this transfer of power. "

Clinton was either a willing dupe or part of the master plan. Which one is it?

I just love these master conspiracy threads. I'm not picking on you, but these type threads are a symptom rather than a actual disease.

It explains away the insufferable truth that we are where we are today for one simple reason: We as a party have lost the confidence of the American voter and don't want to face the fact our party needs to do some serious internal soul searching to find it's vision again to regain the trust of a majority of the voting american public.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. If you don't want to know the truth
then fine.

I don't see what that has to do with Clinton or the short comings of the Democratic party?

This thread is about BushCo and their role in the events of the last 40 years. If you don't wish to believe these events are connected or that there wasn't a plan to take power, then go keep your head in the sand.

In the meantime the following links should prove to anyone willing to open their minds, that BushCo definitely had big plans and they've been working toward fulfilling these plans for a long time.

Project for the New American Century
http://www.newamericancentury.org/defensenationalsecurity.htm

A Clean Break:
A New Strategy for Securing the Realm
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm


STRATEGIC ENERGY POLICY CHALLENGES
FOR THE 21ST CENTURY
http://www.rice.edu/energy/publications/docs/TaskForceReport_StrategicEnergyPolicyUpdate.pdf



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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, the PNAC is the correct link
Edited on Sat May-13-06 09:35 AM by Poppyseedman
for those who believe the nature and scope of conspiracy theorem 101

Just so you don't think me a troll, I certainly think people who run the PNAC have far too much influence within the bush administration. That in itself does not make BFEE a RICO enterprise spanning 40 plus years with Poppy Bush as master.

So just when does bush family finally take dictatorial control?

What happens to the people who refuse to face the truth with our collective heads in the sand when Roberts swears in A Democratic President Jan 20th 2009?
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Confidence of the American Voter...
Rather the American Voter has become one or more of the following: complacent, beguiled, confused, powerfully misled, emotionally manipulated or any number of less than flattering adjectives. Yes, our party must find and return to a vision that can overcome these problems, reach these people's minds and banish their confusions and delusions.

It's hard to speak of losing someone's trust when they've become rationally incompetent and guided by emotions while also having fallen the victim of a series of clever lies and misdirection which have effectively clouded these people's mind's to the point they don't "trust" what is reasonable, right and wise. In such an instance, if you happen to be reasonable, intelligent, honest, and in your right mind--you automatically lose these people's "trust" as a result.

Sure, though, if we can deprogram the people and get them to start thinking clearly, rationally and critically--not only will they finally begin to see how they've been used, abused and lied to, as well as receiving their votes--we will have won their "trust".

To the extent "we" have lost our vision--it's that we failed to recognize the state of politics as having become "total war". We've likewise failed to frame our arguments in sufficiently sophisticated and convincing ways (though actually, if you're willing to lie, you can make more powerful, appealing and persuasive arguments--since you aren't limited to either the truth or reality; so we're automatically at a disadvantage). We must find ways to deflate all the false frames the other side has so successfully erected in the minds of the public. Alas... Seriously, the only real way we can be competitive involves (a) having experts/think-tanks concentrating on forming both convincing arguments for our views as well as endowing them with the keys needed to deflate the false frames of the opposing view; having done that, we need--and this is imperative--(b) access to sufficient MSM/Mass Media to inundate the public consciousness with our messages--on at least an equal footing. Alas, we haven't well done (a), and (b) is beyond our greatest hopes (barring some real leadership, organization and committment). Even if we did have (b) an adequate pathway into the minds of the majority of the people--and even if our messages were well designed to take advantage of the way people think; that's merely parity with the other side--and they have had years and years of exclusive access as well as having fed their mythological false beliefs into the public consciousness slowly over time with experts ('authority') adding their voices (joining the deception), such that their belief system is fully formed in many people's minds. Dislodging such already formed conclusions and long existing belief structure would be all but a miracle unless we, like they have had, have almost exclusive control over the MSM/Mass Media. We would need a period of time during which everyone hears nothing but our views.

The average Joe tunes in and hears that A is true, A is true, and so and so thinks A is true, and here's why A is true, and this group thinks A is true... etc., over and over again, while they get to hear that some disprespected group thinks A is false, and that some group thinks that the group that thinks A is false are terribly wrong because of this and this, and they also see some less than impressive representative from the group thinking A is false and this person is unable to form an articulate expression of why A is false and a roundtable of pro-A 'experts' and popular media personalities proceeds to insult this fellow, dissect his inability to speak clearly, and make ten points as to why A is really true for each of his anti-A arguments... and so on. In the end, average Joe weighs his experience on the issue; reads that polls say 80% of the people believe A is true, remembers that every "credible" argument he's heard has been to the effect A is true... hmmm... and becomes certifiably convinced that A is true. He also concludes that those idiots who think it's false are complete "whackos". Nevermind that the polls are false, that there are many more experts who agree A is false, and that there are many articulate people who have been trying desperately to express the fact that A is false and why--but who've been carefully ignored by the media... This is the story, in a nutshell, of every issue. Democrats, of course, are the ones who have been given the appearance of ignorance and otherwise have received no coverage.

Yes, in such a world, it could be said Democrats have been unable to win or keep the "trust" of those who have fallen for the Republican's propaganda, but it's not really a "trust" issue. Rather, it is simply a matter of the success of a campaign to control the public's access to information (with the caveat that we still need to provide our information in a way that captures the attention and deals with the opposition's clever arguments which are designed to preclude and prevent consideration of the real truth).
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I think you seriously under estimate
the American voter. I didn't say registered voter, but voter.

The ones who actually vote after at least giving some thought going to whom they vote for and why. They decide who runs the country.

Most voters I know, aren't so easily beguiled, powerfully misled, emotionally manipulated like little children.

People don't need to be deprogrammed to start thinking clearly, rationally and critically, they need a vision to follow after.

Your attitude is exactly the reason we will continue to lose election, we think we need to "un trick" people to vote correctly.

We need to present a clear political vision other than bash bushing or continuing the idea that if we drive bush numbers into the ground, people will automatically vote for us because there is no alternative. There is an alternative, it's called not voting.

There have been several threads posted here that tell us that exact thing, the democratic base is just as frustrated with their party leadership as the rethug base is with theirs.

People here think 2006 is going to be a cake walk and take the house. I'm not so sure.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We will have to agree to disagree
Most voters I know, are indeed so easily beguiled. Whether that amounts to a almost half of those who voted or just over half (in the neighborhood of 50 million), is a question for Diebold and others who appear to have manipulated the numbers by some percentage.

Polls showing people, who still believe IRAQ has WMDs (and yes, many of these people did vote) despite authoritative reports to the contrary is just one of scores of examples of Americans who have been beguiled, misled or whatever you wish to call it.

Reports from Democrats who went door to door before the last election refer to depressingly common encounters with people (who fully intended to vote) who believed that Bush was doing everything possible to preserve the environment and fight pollution and likewise believed almost the exact opposite of reality on issue after issue (believing every claim by Bush and even extrapolating from general phrases to believe all sorts of nonsense).

In fact, the simple fact that fifty three million, give or take, apparently voted for Bush is proof enormous numbers of people have been taken in. Even without any possible voter fraud, which would amount to an extreme high of perhaps 8 million votes, that's still more than 40 million. Remember, these are people who believe that deficits/debt doesn't matter, that they've been being overcharged abusively in their tax burden (which, while debatable, is primarily not true; taxes represent the cost of having our government in all it's glory, some good, some not so good, but still necessary), who think that stem cell research and gay marriage amendments are of primary importance to the country's operation and future, who believe Democrats couldn't handle the responsibility for national security and that Republicans, for whom we have much evidence showing they can't handle it, are the only ones who can. The number of illusions matches the number of issues. There are many, many more, everything from 9/11, the Patriot Act, Tax Cuts, No Child Left Behind, to the honesty and trustworthiness of Electronic Voting Systems. By and large, they still don't realize they've been lied to--they may suspect, or even recognize a few instances, but they don't recognize more than a small fraction of the lies. Very few indeed would believe it if they were told that the MSM actually states and repeats outright direct lies (lies being intentional falsehoods that are utterly untrue/dishonest). That alone, in a sense, is a form of 'programming'; they still believe they get the truth (at least from some sources).

Now then, if you thought I meant everyone and in particular Democratic voters, you were mistaken. They represent the force of rational thought, of critical thinking and are not content with the absurdly dishonest version of reality we're fed through the mainstream media. They show that you cannot fool all the people all of the time. Still, there were far too many voters who were led astray--embarrassingly so for our country.

Happily, more and more people are realizing they've been lied to--and finally seem to be beginning to care; hence the drop in Bush's approval ratings. However, that doesn't by any means mean that those millions of voters aren't still harboring any number of false ideas and frames that preclude discussion of their alternatives.

My attitude, if anything, represents the reason we will win more elections; but only to the extent Democrats recognize the pervasiveness of the lies, the importance of the media (just as the Republicans have; and the reason they've plotted to dominate it--or have their surrogate selves, the Corporations, dominate it). If you mean by "un-trick" people, to present them with the truth in a way that they will give it fair consideration while showing how the Republican version was deceptive and convince them that even the MSM lies to them directly... you're right. However, it's also plainly evident that if you want to change a person's vote, you have to change their thinking. Their beliefs and attitudes are formed, on a basic level, in a similar fashion to our own; they're just more willing to accept what appears to be the popular, most supported and agreed upon answers (as presented in writing, on TV, on the Radio and by 'experts', and the apparent 'winner' of televised debates (ie. rigged roundtable discussions where one side is overwhelmed by the other).

If a majority of Democrats were to reject the well known and understood, almost obvious mechanisms by which people's thinking is manipulated (believe it or not, propaganda if done well and not called "propaganda", actually works), such as you apparently do--then we really are doomed to lose. Lose almost every contest from here on--except for cases in which the Republcans completely destroy themselves all on their own anyway. To continue to ineffectually wish people would somehow elect us, is pointless. Likewise wishing that somehow our message would strike Republicans as a "vision" they would prefer or hoping that somehow we could win back their "trust" doesn't do anything for us either. I'm not even sure it's not incoherent.

"People don't need to be deprogrammed to start thinking clearly, rationally and critically, they need a vision to follow after". You think not, well, you're free to think what you wish. However, I would suggest you give it a shot and try to get them to think clearly, rationally or critically. Better yet, try to get them to even consider a "vision to follow" without getting them to think, to give up their current beliefs. Perhaps "deprogramming" is too strong a word, but Republicans are very set in their beliefs and are not at all very open to considering anything new (at least that element of Conservatism remains unchanged). They are used to ignoring the facts (in the increasingly rare instances in which they're presented with them) that it must at least be considered a mental habit. Convincing them to or persuading them to or hopeing they will overcome that behavior on their own is not easy. Our ideologies do differ significantly, just presenting them with a "vision" doesn't mean they'll even listen, much less consider changing their stance. That's why I include the notion of "frames" in presenting our positions, our arguments, our 'vision'; because we have to get them to consider the assumptions that underly their beliefs and get them to question as well as actually think about how their vision may be flawed--while simultaneously making ours more acceptable (and yet still true to our ideology). None of this is easy.

Still, your notion about presenting them with a vision they can follow, in some ways is consistent with what I was saying... that we must present our beliefs in such a way that it deflates their beliefs, catches and holds their attention... is very much the same thing as providing to them a "vision". Though I would claim it's a new way of thinking with it's own component elements of fact and understanding--a "frame" for understanding--and capable of breaking them free from their currently held "vision". The thing is, the people in question hold their current "vision" so firmly and without rational basis that it's been thus far, impossible to change--and while you might say presenting them with the best, most honest facts and analysis describing an issue is not the same as providing them a "vision" to follow; all I can say is we'd all welcome better framed arguments (presentations of "vision"); so feel free to provide examples.

We're all being manipulated every day and most strongly by the media. Between the Bush Administration's child-like speech and the media's parroting; I don't see how you can think we're not being treated like children. We've not been given the facts, and such information as we are given is provided as though pre-chewed, pre-digested--infant pablum. We're shown a little bit of the facts and alot of "what it all means" (provided conveniently by Republican talking heads/media personalities). There's no other way to describe it, well--some refer to it as the 'dumbing down' of the American citizen. Nevertheless, it is much like being treated as a child. Sadly, given that we are fed this from every direction (MSM), and since there really are millions of people who are conditioned to believe 'authority', it works. Now then, it's not really that all those people are imbeciles--it's just they've never been exposed to critical thinking (had no example), they're busy with making a living or attending to a wide range of distractions and aren't interested in politics. That people aren't interested in politics--is itself an intended result, a subtle manipulation to help keep the population from being troublesom--and, in a way, a way to keep people on an immature/childlike level. It's also a failing of education--so many people don't even know what their rights are, and so won't miss them, others simply don't know how the government is supposed to act, and yet others don't realize that politics itself is of supreme importance as it affects everything in their lives.

As for soul searching--it appears you haven't been bothering much to keep informed of what's in the Democratic Platform. We have searched our souls and considered and reconsidered our positions. As an individual, I might think we could or need to improve in various ways, but we already have a viable, rational and workable set of plans that generally reflect our ideology. No, more soul searching is not necessary.

Your own arguments, if they could even be called that, are so subjective and ungrounded in reality I would have to wonder if you've fallen for the Republican's efforts to paralyze the Democratic party. It sounds alot like the artificial, but unfortunately effective tactic the Republicans pulled off immediately following their unlikely victory in the 2004 election--to claim Democrat's had lost touch with "values" (when the truth of it was that the Republicans were plainly the ones whose behaviors had most strongly been devoid of "values"--even by their own definitions). Nevertheless, it caused millions of depressed Democrats to wonder--have we really lost touch with the values of Americans? Consider the enormous waste of time that resulted; all of which was just the end result of a Republican "trick". Anyway, if you want to blame someone for Democrat's lack of success at the polls, you should look in the mirror before pointing to others.

Nowhere did I suggest we expend any effort on Bush bashing or trying to drive his numbers into the ground. While satisfying, it doesn't achieve much. What we do need is very smart, well-formed arguments/frames (or to use your words, clear vision). Of course, we also have to find a way to have such arguments or vision reach everyone--and to do so in a competitive volume lest it just be ignored or be ganged up against (in which case they will no doubt distort and present falsehoods about our vision--negating it while ignoring and not reporting our complaints that they've done so). In some cases, however, the alternative of not voting would be desirable. That is, those who no longer like Congress/Bush enough to not vote, so long as the majority of them are Republicans, would be useful. It would always be better if they were to achieve enlightenment, but in many cases that's either very, very difficult or hopeless. The next best thing would be if they didn't vote. We however, cannot afford to not vote; given the level of distress we feel about our government, though, it's not likely many of us will choose not to vote (even if we fear the machines will discard our votes).

Absolutely true that Democrats have a great deal of frustration with their leaders. It's very disappointing that even under such dire circumstances our leadership can't present a united front. Alas, the basic issues of Americans being misled, misinformed, (beguiled if you will) and so on by a "ruling" party by means of a complicit media doesn't go away.

I don't think 2006 will be a 'cake-walk' at all. Even if Republicans continue to screw up, get caught and become more and more exposed, and even if Democrats are able to get their message out in an effective form as much as possible. Few Republicans will change their votes even if they've changed their minds; no matter how unhappy they are with their leaders or how they've come to distrust them (they still distrust us more and reject our beliefs out of hand and won't reconsider). Even if they did, I'm sufficiently convinced that voter fraud (electronic voting and counting, ballot tricks, voter disenfranchisement) both exist and will play a larger role than ever before. Few Republicans know the truth about such fraud--nearly all dismiss it as a paranoid fantasy; that's why so many leading Republicans are convinced they're in deep trouble. I doubt that they are. I dearly hope they are. We should all both hope so and do everything we can to ensure Democratic wins. Now is not the time for complacency.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, a lotta confessions to be made
to restore civility.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. Get Real
you want the NSA to disclose its running operations. That will never happen. Every government, in every country, runs black operations.

The NSA and other agencies are not the problem.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Then cut their funding
There are certainly better ways to provide for our safety and security then blowing unaccounted for billions on black ops.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's some of the truth I was referring to
Know your BFEE: Lies are the Currency of their Realm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1170858

Thanks Octafish :hi:

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