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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:22 AM
Original message
NSA database, two opinions, two very different views of the world:
Read this Washington Post article in "favor" of this program:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201656.html
On Thursday, USA Today reported that three U.S. telecommunications companies have been voluntarily providing the National Security Agency with anonymized domestic telephone records -- that is, records stripped of individually identifiable data, such as names and place of residence. If true, the architect of this program deserves our thanks and probably a medal. That architect was presumably Gen. Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and President Bush's nominee to become director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

The potential value of such anonymized domestic telephone records is best understood through a hypothetical example. Suppose a telephone associated with Mohamed Atta had called a domestic telephone number A. And then suppose that A had called domestic telephone number B. And then suppose that B had called C. And then suppose that domestic telephone number C had called a telephone number associated with Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The most effective way to recognize such patterns is the computerized analysis of billions of phone records. The large-scale analysis of anonymized data can pinpoint individuals -- at home or abroad -- who warrant more intrusive investigative or intelligence techniques, subject to all safeguards normally associated with those techniques.




I understand the NSA database is simply phone numbers connecting to other phone numbers, but it isn't anonymous because last time I checked phone books can be used to find people's names and addresses. What am I missing that makes this anonymous?

While some in the government have said it is legal, and this puke of writer says it is also legal, it is going to be on extremely shaky ground. 18 U.S.C. 2709, is so far the only law I have seen wherein some agency might have special privileges to get these records, and would only have to have the certification of the head or deputy of its agency. "Unfortunately," for the NSA, the agency explicitly mentioned in the law is FBI. An agency the NSA used to rely upon to do its domestic spying in the past.

Maybe the NSA will argue that somehow, even though the law mentions explicitly the FBI alone, they were acting in the same capacity. Of course even that doesn't make sense. The NSA would still be required to have its director or deputy director certify the program. Qwest, which would have no reason whatsoever to lie and in fact would stand to make money from this, refused access to its records because no authorization or warrant were ever presented to it by the NSA.

And say somehow they manage to get past all that, this work is not counterintelligence. It is not because every American's phone records, if they subscribe to sell-out companies, were given to the NSA. Unless every one of those people, nearly 200 million, are an Al-Qaeda member, a member of an affiliated terrorist organization, or an agent of a foreign power, this is not counterintelligence work.

The main problem, is that this was unnecessary from everything I have seen. I am highly doubtful that someone can be identified as a terrorist simply from the number of phone calls, their duration, and to whom those calls are made. Why didn't they just request the phone records of suspected terrorists? Why? Wouldn't that be much cheaper and wouldn't that also be much easier to work with? Increasing the number of dots almost certainly makes it more difficult to connect the right ones.

The fact that the agency is looking for new ways to connect the dots, is in my opinion based upon a fallacy. President Bush had a very significant prior warning to 9/11, the August 6th PDB specifically stated terrorists were planning to hijack airplanes. To most Presidents that would be a good reason to put airports and airlines on alert for suspicious activity, but for our current President it wasn't enough for some reason, and he didn't act on this intelligence. In addition to that, we knew Al-Qaeda was planning something at lower levels in the FBI, and that was from the use of traditional intelligence collection methods. The only thing that should have been changed in the FBI, was the flow chart of organization not the intelligence collection method or a shift of duties to the NSA.

This database, in principle, is a fundamental change in our system of justice. For nearly 230 years, our nation has always believed in placing the burden of proof with accuser not the accused. However, that is not the most disturbing part, every one in America is under some level of official suspicion. That is the most significant change in our system of jurisprudence ever, and I wonder if any system so conceived can ever ensure the guilt or innocence of Americans. It seems the officials running our nation could stand to learn from words originally by Edward R. Murrow, "We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men -- not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular." I couldn't have said it any better myself.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you are not doing anything wrong, as the saying goes, then you
are sort of guilty until proven innocent. Nice.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. what about the 140 people at GITMO
that were held for 4 years until they were declared innocent, under the Patriot Act, you have
no rights if you are designated a "terrorist." They don't have to tell your family that you've
been arrested.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. They are not doing anything wrong either... then again, they weren't
doing anything wrong when they were fighting for us against the ruskies in the 80's.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sad how things come to have consequences later;
We need to be weary of the consequences of the time we now live in because tomorrow may suffer.
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. If our intelligence said there were WMD's & there were none
maybe just maybe, these people's only crime was walking down the street, since Iraq had nothing
to do with 9-11, then the Iraqi people are not collaborators with Osama, one of those being
held is an 80 year old man, how many old people do you know sneak around throwing bombs, one
of his sons is there as well.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. That reversal has already been planted. I have sickened myself
Edited on Sat May-13-06 11:52 AM by higher class
listening to pundits with law degrees on tv do this for nearly fourteen years. Just watch Nancy Grace, Dan Abrams and all their guest lawyer experts. Even lawyers who during the Simpson trial talked about being innocent until proven guilty are still around and not argue guilt from the first moment.

There used to be a big deal about forgetting to speak of a suspect using the word 'alleged'. There is little precaution taken today in the heat of their arguments. Take a look at the guilty attacks on Gary Condit. In the case of the the ship disappearance, they rotated the guilt between the husband, wife, and cruise line staff.

TV became the perfect vehicle to weaken our long standing tenet of innocence until proven guilty in a court and before a judge or jury. We weren't taught that cheapo lawyers in a colored picture box between commercials could declare a person guilty and continually erode the principal - cheapo lawyer employees of ceo's who are partners with corrupt politicians acting on behalf of the barons and reverends.

It is one thing for an individual to start forming opinions based on what is fed to them and to discuss and compare theories - it is ABSOLUTELY unpatriotic for lawyers to declare guilt on tv - even before arrest or charges. But, that's what they have done - laid the carpet for lazy or bigoted citizens.

They have created tv debates so that a citizen who is interested in the crime and a little interested in the law is so confused by the endless arguments of the cheapo lawyer-employees that they take the easy way out and go with their prejudices.

Think tankers who carried out the desires of whoever declared the destruction of our judicial system have laid our plans that attack the legal system from both ends and the middle. They have planted a posse, stake burning mentality in non-thinking end of tv watchers and especially the young. They plant and water carefully. At the other end they steal elections to get the advantage so that they can plant the Supreme Court. In the middle they train, fund, and groom lawyers and judges who take care of the religious, corporate, and political agendas at local, state, and district levels. There are all kinds of foundations funding their own.

They have a huge contingent of lawyers working on changing the Constitution their way - The Federalist Society.

And they have allowed outlaw groups like the Minutemen to also take charge.

It is too transparent.

What is their plan to win/conquer the remaining honest lawyers who revere the law and the Constitution?


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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I couldn't agree with you more; there is a reason people are innocent...
until proved guilty.

Convicting an innocent man is a crime, and it damages the justice of the victim. This is what has happened with people put at GITMO. They are presumed innocent until proved guilty. I am not talking about people who were arrested on that battlefield either.

I am talking about innocent farmers and other people who were arrested and sent to GITMO.

Just read this Wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainment_camp
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Edited to change 'not' to 'now' in second sentence. Lawyers who
formerly said innocent until proven guilty now push guilty until proven innocent.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. He's watching Jeb:
Edited on Sat May-13-06 11:49 AM by originalpckelly
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. I move that everytime the name "Mohammed Atta" is used
to argue their point, they must list the names of every American whose calls were screened.

Some perspective, please.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. This "argument" for domestic spying is reminiscent of the "argument"
for intelligent design. Through sheer bluster and PR, relevance is created from thin air.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. We could lock people away in solitary confinement...
to prevent every crime, but the quality of life left over would be pretty awful. Now this is far from that, but don't expect anything else but a bleaker perspective on your life. You "criminal." You "terrorist."
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