National Guard on the border -- anyone else nervous?

[radfringe]

It's expected the boy-king will announce sending the National Guard to secure our borders. Articles have indicated this is to be a 'temporary fix'.

Mexican President Fox is upset by this.

While I recognize the need to do something about our borders - the thought of BUSH sending in the troops makes me nervous. If it were anyone else other than the bush mis-administration, I might not be so nervous.

What's making me nervous:

1. that BUSH is doing it. His record has shown he's long on the rhetoric/spin, and short on results - more often than not making a bad situation worse

2. What we don't know is the extent of the duties/responsibilities of the National Guard. I'm not accusing anyone of going out there and being trigger happy - but things happen. What would be the fallout if an illegal were shot?
Or the fallout if one of the Minutemen were shot?

3. What about the Minuteman patrols and similar groups involvment? Will they stand down and let the National Guard handle things?

4. Confrontations with pro-amnesty groups? I keep flashing back to Kent State on this thought.

bottomline - if it were anyone than bush, I probably wouldn't be so nervous.
Anyone else?

[BooScout]

1. No.........I already escaped to Britain....

But I don't take this latest brainstorm of Bush's too seriously. Where the hell is he going to get the troops? He's already sent every spare National Guardsman to Iraq, he wants to bomb Iran and deploy troops along the borders. Obviously math was never his strong point. He ain't got the manpower to do it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I'm a little concerned.

Bush hasn't deployed anything like this that hasn't turned out a disaster. I'm not in favor of open borders, but I do recognize that this option has the potential to become Kent State cubed.

[Skidmore]

2. I'm torn about this. I wonder whether it is a violation

of the posse commitatus (SP?) law. But I do think that we need to do something at the borders to secure them. And, I guess if the NG is going to be deployed, I rather see them home than in Iraq right now. I, too, don't like it that * is calling this though. Anything he does makes me nervous. The man is a sociopath.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. You do realize of course the belief that..............

....we need to or should do something about our porous borders is not an accepted belief at DU, or should I say border?? Many at DU feel we can do anything we want at the northern border but just not at that southern border.

[Skidmore]

24. We should have sealed both borders and our ports following 9/11 and

had a serious discussion about border security. If we want to tout ourselves as a nation state, then we need to maintain our borders.

[Minnesota Libra]

29. I agree completely!!!! Some at DU view that as somehow being.......

...racist and for the life of me I've never figured that one out. I know some people focus strictly on the southern border but I don't. An illegal alien coming across any border or port is still an illegal aliens and I agree with you, that we are simply asking for more trouble if we don't deal with all border once and for all.

On top of all that is the little issue that we went this amnesty route once before. It obviously didn't deal with the issue of illegal aliens any more successfully than it will this time. It doesn't matter how many fines or in what amount those fines end up being, if the illegal alien doesn't have to go back home first and start completely over and do everything legally then they remain illegal aliens with amnesty.

[radfringe]

30. the key word for me

is ILLEGAL

I'm torn on the whole issue. On one hand we need to control our borders, on the other I'm for offering opportunity to others

I'm a 2nd generation American on both sides of my family. Both sets of grandparents immigrated here after WW-2, and they did it legally.

I have no problem with any group immigrating here - but let them do it legally. If there are procedural/governmental obstacles that is preventing the lawful immigration from being processed in a timely manner - then maybe we have to look at that too

[Minnesota Libra]

35. Oh, I have NO problem with immigration at all and I sure hope.............

....I didn't leave you with the impression I was against immigration as a general principle.

My great-great grandparents and great grandparents came here as immigrants through Ellis Island - and I thank them for that too. Had my great great grandparents not made that trip over here my family would have been in the middle of Nazi Germany - so I am VERY GRATEFUL that they packed up and left their homeland. I can only imagine how quick my big mouth would have landed me in Bora Bora or Auschwitz or somewhere equally as horrible.

I DO NOT and NEVER HAVE HAD a problem with LEGAL immigration - if people will just do it legally. In fact I'm of the opinion that immigrants have helped make this country the great place it used to be and will be again one day. No one is saying the immigration process is easy or quick but if they want our way of life so bad it should be worth working for regardless of how long it takes or how much work it takes. So I guess that's the basis of my feelings on the issue right there.

[treestar]

36. We do maintain them! Just as well if not better than any other nation

state with a long border. Nothing's perfect.

It is a choice not to grant legal status to people who are able to get jobs in our country, that's all. We already have an elaborate and comlex set of laws on it, and it fails to include people who want to come while including people who don't.

The US had tremendous influxes of immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries and became the richest nation on earth. The US is a center of economic activity and attracts people. Countries that can "seal" their borders are countries no one wants to go to.

The desirability of keeping people out just for the sake of keeping them out is absurd. The desire to cut off our economic activity just to keep people out is insane.

[titoresque]

19. Posse Comitatus

I'm worried too!
This may be a ruse.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Trigger-happiness is a concern. Are these troops who have rotated...

...out of Iraq?:shrug:

[Maraya1969]

4. What bothers me is he is doing it right before the start of hurricane

season. Just more people not being there to help.

[rucky]

7. i think we might be better off without the National Guard's "help"

after Katrina.

[MADem]

5. They're there to keep us IN!!!

No, not really...but wouldn't that be a sorry state of affairs! That wall they're building being our Berlin Wall??

[paparush]

18. YES! That's what I feel. Its another step in controlling OUR population.

[bdamomma]

26. Berlin Wall

I wouldn't doubt it at all with these lunatics in office. We are definitely turning into a police state, but again, where is bush getting the guard from??? aren't they all in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[rucky]

6. the minutemen got what they wanted

except maybe the "joy" of shooting a brown person. they'll stand down, or they'll have to find something else to be unhappy about.

at it's best, this is pandering to the brownshirts. and that option sucks.

there's no limit to what it is at it's worst. it's not responding to a real threat (no Bush military action ever is), so it shows that the military can be mobilized on our soil for pretty much any reason they make up. and the fact that many aren't alarmed by this is what alarms me the most.

[radfringe]

8. that may be true.... BUT

given bush*'s track record on actually having something work the way it's advertised...

if there are insufficient troops sent to the borders and/or the Minutemen otherwise feel that the border enforcement is insufficient - the Minutemen could just go right back out there justifying it as "helping"

the minutemen may stand down for a time - but if things aren't as 'advertised'....

another thought - amnesty protests (both pro/con) could heat up.. and if someone is shot on the border by the national guard... it'll really heat up

[rucky]

9. yeah. people like that are just looking for a fight

provoke provoke provoke, and they'll get their wish.

but without their seemingly benign "activist" mission, they'll just be another hate group.

[Mikimouse]

10. I only have two questions about this...

1) Which way did the 'hispanic' vote go in the 2004 elections?
2) Does anyone else think that this might be a way to suppress the vote?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2284756

Edit: added a link that may clarify my concern (if this happens in schools, it could easily happen during voting)

[Robbie Michaels]

11. Here's my concern

What will happen if our National Guard and/or the smugglers shoot at each other?

[ixion]

12. deploying the military because of immigration is reckless

and innocent people will no doubt either be killed or have their lives ruined by it, you can be sure.

Military is NOT the solution to ANY domestic issue, and to very very very very very few foriegn policy issues, IMO.

[MADem]

21. If they vigorously punish EMPLOYERS, the problem goes away

These people aren't coming here for the loving embrace of the friendly American culture. They are coming to WORK. Toss fewer than a hundred employers in jail for a mandatory one year sentence, with fines up to 100 grand, and VOILA!!! Problem solved.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....rather than round up a hundred employers, and let the word go forth that hiring has ceased, let's deploy thousands to the border. Thousands of people who are doing their two week ACDUTRA...sure, Corporal, we know your job is stacking skivvies, but you're gonna guard this here fence!! Certainly, Private, I realize your job is maintaining personnel records, but too bad--watch that line and holler if anyone comes over it! This mission will REALLY help you in becoming a more professional guardsman....not.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Does anybody remember Esequiel Hernandez?

This Native Born American Citizen died because the Marines were sent to guard the Border as part of the "War on Drugs."

On May 20, 1997, Esequiel Hernandez, Jr. was herding his family's goats 100 yards from his home on the US-Mexican border in Redford, Texas, as he did every day. Six days before, he had turned 18 years old.

Unknown to Esequiel or any of the other residents of Redford, a group of four Marines led by 22-year old Corporal Clemente Banuelos had been encamped just outside the small village along the Rio Grande River for three days. After watering his small flock of goats in the river, Esequiel started on his way back home when the Marines began stalking him from a distance of 200 yards.

The four camouflaged Marines were outfitted with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment and weapons. Esequiel carried an antique .22 caliber rifle -- a pre-World War I, single shot rifle to keep wild dogs and rattlesnakes away from his goats. The autopsy showed that Esequiel was facing away from the Marines when he was shot. He probably never knew the Marines were watching him from 200 yards away....

... Corporal Banuelos... led the Marine unit that patrolled the Redford area. He fired the shot that killed Esequiel on the orders of an unidentified commander who was not present at the scene. He and his fellow Marines, trained to kill the enemy, were placed in a situation which was inconsistent with the role of the military. Now he will have to live with the guilt of killing an innocent man for the rest of his life. He too is a victim of our present drug policy. Photo courtesy of The Big Bend Sentinel.

www.dpft.org/hernandez/gallery/

Notice that this source does NOT condemn the Marines as "trigger happy." They were simply put into a situation for which they had not been trained.

Now, it's the turn of the National Guard.

The INS is now the ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). The name change occurred when INS was made part of Homeland Security. Just like FEMA.

[Justice Is Comin]

15. They better be retstrained, well trained

and keep their M-16's pointed in the air. Any killings down there could spark an international incident.

[KyuzoGator]

16. No, it's nice to have the National Guard guard our nation for a change.

I'd rather have them guarding our border than guarding a Halliburton oil rig in Iraq.

[DemonFighterLives]

20. Nervous yes

The whole situation could have been avoided with a few deportations from the big offenders. The Klansmen er I mean the minutemen are just waiting for the situation to escalate.

The whole mess is a diversion. People who have nothing to lose are up in arms about the immigrants, legal and illegal.

[MADem]

22. Two words--POSSE COMITATUS

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.



Guess the Monkey thinks he's more important than either the Constitution or Congress.

For more on this, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

[HereSince1628]

23. Think the rubber-stamp republicans will deny Bush the authority?

That ain't likely.

The only sticky issue is really gonna be how to equip and pay for such a force. Undoubtedly some progressive program is gonna get axed to make HSD fatter and sassier.

[spanone]

33. Remember, laws don't apply to Mr. Bush*

:sarcasm:

[catmandu57]

25. First step to martial law?

Maybe, trump up an incident, declare martial law cancel election, declare dictatorship, this like everything else the boy idiot* touches will end in disaster. Yes, it's right to be nervous.

[bdamomma]

27. this sick administration

wants to promote, conquer and divide, and pump out that fear.

[Kansas Wyatt]

28. As usual with Bush, too little too late

Because he has failed to even consider stopping the flood of illegals running across the border. Why? Corporate America wants CHEAP LABOR, while working class America gets bent over and fucked severely.

Yes, I would put troops on the border, except I would put enough to stop the flow, instead of Bush's token effort (token, because Corporate America still wants more cheap labor). However, I would specifically target all employers hiring illegals, with massive fines and the business (and it's assets) seized on the third offense. All proceeds from fines and seizures would go to an Extended Unemployment Fund, on top of existing unemployment, for legal workers screwed out of fair wages and conditions. Illegals already in the country would be granted NO amnesty, special status, citizenship, or immunity from existing laws. Immigration enforcement funding would be increased, and illegals would still be held accountable to existing laws. Since the employers of illegals will no longer risk losing so much money by hiring them anymore, most illegals will have no choice but to return to their country just to be able to survive. Don't like it, tough shit, the illegals already agreed to and accepted these terms when they made the choice to illegally enter the U.S. and stay.

[El Fuego]

31. A cheap trick to raise his approval rating above 30% again.

[trixie]

32. his followers will think this is good

We know this is just to keep us in and controlled. He is definately stepping up the police state tactics.

[porphyrian]

34. All show.

When they turn up less than the regular patrol, or when there's an incident that gets out of hand with those neonazi minutefuckers "volunteering," this'll go away. Nothing will change but the headlines for a week.