CSPAN 3 - Live Hearing on Pre-War Intelligence THREAD #2

[Norquist Nemesis]

Thread one here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1508795&mesg_id=1508795

CSPAN link here: http://www.cspan.org/watch/index.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3&ShowVidDays=30&ShowVidDesc=&ArchiveDays=30

[Cameron27]

1. Why u movin Norquist?

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. When they get over 100 counts

it's sometime gets cumbersome for dial-up folks. :hi:

[Cameron27]

2. never mind just kidding with you

[The Witch]

4. k&r, listening with a dropped jaw...

:wow: :wow: :wow:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. thanks for #2

:)

recommended

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. Dorgin: What was with the creation of the office at the Pentagon

OSP?

W. (paraphrasing) I had no angst as a former member of DOD...Military don't often have the fondest views of the CIA. (however,) It was quite 'ecclectic' in what they collected.

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. Pillar: Feith's office was overwhelmingly trying to collect info

scraps connecting Iraq and AQ. The driving force was an arm of SECDEF office policy side to link Iraq and 9/11.

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. Ford: If 4 or 5 guys in the Pentagon can out think us, shame on

us. If we can't recognize cherry picking, shame on us. But remember, the reason they had to do this is because we (CIA) had failed them. You can go in "I believe". You have to be convincing and persuasive. We were not able to convince our boss about the aluminum tubes.

Dorgan: We didn't even know there was a dispute about this.

F. Sir, I came to the Hill several times about it. It wasn't because we didn't tell you. (So, WHO did he tell?) Dept. of Energy later flip-flopped.

[The Witch]

7. talking about feith's office...

I am not familiar w/it but it sounds shady as the day is long in june...

[Nothing Without Hope]

8. Get ye to the Greatest Page - K & R #5 n/t

[Greeby]

10. Ford:Shame on intel community for allowing OSP to do what they did

nt

[Nothing Without Hope]

12. But how could they have stopped OSP, when it was stovepiped to

the WH, which accepted only what fit their plan to lie? This seens disingenuous to me, ignoring that they WANTED to lie. He continues in a vein of attacking the US intelligence effort: "It isn't any good!" "Until do better work, we can't believe ." Totally blasting all traditional routes of intelligence gathering. Says we can't trust them with the country's security. So what's his alternative? Cheney/Rumsfeld's OSP?

[dogday]

13. I wouldn't trust it...........

[Norquist Nemesis]

14. My experience at INR, was that we were better on Iraq than

any other country.

(Aw, CRAP! Iran, here we come!)

edit: Ooops! That was Ford talking, not me. :D

[Cameron27]

15. Meeting in Praque

[Joanne98]

16. Is that the Republican Jones?

[Norquist Nemesis]

17. NOI told Wilkerson truth about Saddam's getting maps

of the US and exactly how it happened. It WASN'T AT ALL what the administration said! :grr: It was a bonus offered by the company that was selling maps of something else to Saddam.

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. Pillar: The documents from the UK are "quite consistent"

with where the government was going...I agree with you that intelligence was being used to justify a policy.

[dogday]

20. The only one who knows when that decision was made

was President Bush..... Absolutely.....

[Norquist Nemesis]

21. Ford: From my perspective, I had the impression there was

still some chance if Saddam had been more forthcoming,

(Note: Wilkerson already testified that Powell thought as late as Jan 2003 that there was still a chance for diplomacy.)

[me b zola]

31. I'm wondering if they are going to do a round II of questioning

They need to flesh out who is being truthful, and who's testimony needs to be shitcanned

It seems like all but Ford are on the same page, making it seems as though Ford is in an alternate universe

[The Witch]

19. Is this Ford who's saying "Well, we were looking at the POSSIBILITIES"

sounds shillish.

[The Witch]

22. reply to self: it must be him. He's using "we," trying to imply mea culpa.

[Norquist Nemesis]

23. Sounds like the State Dept still hoped for diplomacy to work

up through January 2003. And Wilkerson said that Powell had thought he could influence the decision up to that point in time.

[Norquist Nemesis]

24. Walter Jones up now n/t

[lala_rawraw]

we need a thank you Congressman Jones n/t

[dogday]

27. He is one upset person

sounds like he is going to cry.... :cry:

[The Witch]

35. He does sound on the verge of tears...

I hope Rep. Conyers has talked to him. He could be an important person in getting the truth out.

[Norquist Nemesis]

34. J: What has befuddled me so greatly, (Gen. Newbold) who gave up

third star and resigned...(quotes from his piece)...

to Wilkerson: How did the 4 or 5 neo-conservative put around the DOD ...how did they re-write the intelligence? I don't know how, unless someone wanted them to have that authority; and knowing the previous history of those individuals trying to get Pres Clinton to go into Iraq (PNAC). How could the professionals see what was happening and not speak out?

[Gregorian]

25. Oops. Rep. Jones laments his Iraq War Resolution vote.

This is all starting to take on the sentiment of Watergate. Very somber.

[lala_rawraw]

29. he sent 8k letters... my god...

[Cameron27]

26. Jones wrote 8000 letters to families in America

Genl Greg Nubolt gave up 3rd star because he couldn't stay a dept. of defense...Jones reading his letter

[shadowknows69]

32. This is getting good.

too bad the media will ignore it completely

[Supersedeas]

99. the Media wants no part of this man's perspective (R & regretting War)

[bettyellen]

28. oops.

[The Witch]

30. who is this Jones fellow?

He seems genuinely troubled.

[Norquist Nemesis]

38. Originally, he was Rep. Freedom Fries

Completely turned when he found out the intelligence was cooked.

[Joanne98]

74. I thought that was Bob Ney? (my congressman) yuk

[berner59]

40. woah....the 3 words...

THE VICE PRESIDENT....!!!!!!!!!!

[Idioteque]

50. He is a very good man.

His dad was a Democratic Congressman from NC. He was a Democrat in the state legislature . He switched to the GOP when he ran for Congress.

He originally voted for the war. He even helped lead the effort to change "french fries" to "freedom fries". After seeing so many young men come home in flag draped coffins, he eventually changed his position on the war and apologized for voting for it.

[Greeby]

33. He's getting into PNAC

:popcorn:

[shadowknows69]

39. I'll forgive any lawmaker that signed on to this war

If they pass the buck right up to the chimp.

[lala_rawraw]

36. Boom... HE nailed it!!!!

-Who gave the Neocons this much power?
-We saw them try to force Clinton toward war with Iraq?
-Did they rewrite the intel?

BOOM

[lala_rawraw]

41. BOOMBOOMBOOMB

on edit, what Wilkerson just said answered the questions directly, DIRECTLY!!!

[The Witch]

42. Can we (not as liberals, but as citizens/truth-tellers), reach out to him?

OH MY GOD :the vice president:

[babylonsister]

37. Color me naive, but would it not make more sense for this to be

happening on the floor of the Senate instead of the flag-burning amendment?

[dogday]

47. Priorities are screwed up for sure

does not give me a lot of confidence......:shrug:

[Cameron27]

53. This is HIstoric..

I don't remember anything as significant as this particular hearing in my lifetime...Watergate pales in comparison IMO

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. I dislike saying this, but although you are 100% correct, you're naive.

God forbid they should challenge this insane administration....

[dogday]

43. As a Republican, I am ashamed

... Three words... The Vice President.... Wow

[me b zola]

59. be still my heart!!!

:bounce:

[Greeby]

44. Jones: "How did these people get so much power"

Wilkerson: "Two words: Vice President" :wow:

[The Witch]

45. Q: How did they get that much power? A: 3 words: The Vice President.

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:wow: :wow: :wow:

My heartbeat sped twenty times its rate when he said that....

[lala_rawraw]

Now go back and re-read 15 articles I did on this in order

and given this context and you have the HOW:)

[The Witch]

55. ITMFA.

I feel like screaming.

[lala_rawraw]

58. BOOM - welcome Larry Franklin to the party

[Norquist Nemesis]

57. Which of the panel said that?

missed it! Dammit!

[The Witch]

65. Larry Wilk. Others agreed, I think.

And I think I heard Difi say "Oh, dear..."

[Norquist Nemesis]

72. I'm going to have to re-watch this!!! n/t

[cal04]

46. the Vice President

whoa

[Nothing Without Hope]

48. How did these people with the history of trying to get Clinton into

war with Iraq get so much power? "Three words: The Vice President"

There it is.

[Norquist Nemesis]

49. White: I didn't even know about OSP until 6-7 mos before the war

Found out about it when someone in the office showed it to him as 'comic relief'.

[lala_rawraw]

56. They cannot say the same thing about the Iranian Directorate remake

of OSP ... they now know that ahead of time!

[TexasLady]

51. wow, gettin' juicy here!

thank goodness for the live link on cspan.

[dogday]

52. One Word---------DICK nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. Sorry 3 words. Shrub, Blair and Dick. Remember, it was Shrub and Blair's

decision to go to war no matter what.

[cal04]

60. to Carl Ford from Pillar

policy makers didn't like the answer
There was NO alliance

[Cameron27]

61. Pillar

CIA was doing it job...they were asked so many questions, the policy makers in dept of defense didn't like their answers.

[Norquist Nemesis]

63. Pillar's saying that they used 9/11 intelligence failure as proof

that what intelligence was saying about Iraq was wrong; because they were so wrong about 9/11, they are wrong about a connection between AQ and Saddam. (summed up) :grr:

[Greeby]

64. Jones going after The Rendon Group nt

:popcorn:

[The Witch]

67. and my media player freezes up :argh:

:argh:

[Nothing Without Hope]

106. Happened to me too - got a note that it "timed out" I just refreshed the

CSPAN page and it started up again.

[lala_rawraw]

68. Rendon group is DOD 's "public" arm

[babylonsister]

73. The Rendon Group:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rendon_Group

The Rendon Group is a secretive public relations firm that has assisted a number of U.S. military interventions in nations including Argentina, Colombia, Haiti, Iraq, Kosovo, Panama and Zimbabwe. Rendon's activities include organizing the Iraqi National Congress, a PR front group designed to foment the overthrow of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

In a 1998 speech to the National Security Conference (NSC), company founder John Rendon described himself as "an information warrior, and a perception manager. This is probably best described in the words of Hunter S. Thompson, when he wrote 'When things turn weird, the weird turn pro.'"

"Through its network of international offices and strategic alliances," the Rendon Group website boasted in 2002, "the company has provided communications services to clients in more than 78 countries, and maintains contact with government officials, decision-makers, and news media around the globe."

The Chicago Tribune reports (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0511130330nov13,1,4083882.story?ctrack=1&cset=true) that the Rendon Group has garnered more than $56 million in Pentagon work since September 2001. <1>

lots more...

[Norquist Nemesis]

66. *GASP* Now Jones is bringing up the RENDON GROUP!

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[Cameron27]

69. DITTO

[Norquist Nemesis]

71. Wilkerson: I have my theories. We've outsourced things we

couldn't properly put under the DOD.

Translation: DOD Psyops.

[eleny]

76. My jaw dropped too, so I came looking for a thread

Amazing! they must be reading DU. ;-)

[Joanne98]

70. This reminds me of what they did to the Amtrak CEO....

I don't know if anybody watched those hearings but Bushco created a really boring little office then started using it as a detour to bypass the regular process. It was a really sad hearing.

[The Witch]

75. "you propagandize... and overnight Judy Miller's writing about it in NYT"

holy SHITE

[Norquist Nemesis]

Psyops through outsourcing.

Wilkerson nailed it.

[The Witch]

77. AGH! BAD media player! BAD time to cut out!

switching to real players and crossing fingers...

[Norquist Nemesis]

78. Closing comment by Ford

"One of the things people haven't fully grasped. Intelligence community said Saddam had WMD and was reconstituting. That was wrong. Wayne White wrote what Iraq was going to look like, and he was right! ...We have become almost irrelevant to the policy makers." When we're wrong they listen, when we're right, they don't.

DiFi: You are not irrelevant.

Sounds like Ford's been bashed, battered, and tormented.

[lala_rawraw]

81. my feed died:(

[The Witch]

83. mine too, wtf!?

[lala_rawraw]

85. perhaps it is over?

[The Witch]

88. i got it back on real player

maybe a whole buncha people saw my post on gd and tuned in... :D

[Viva_La_Revolution]

89. I'm still up

running the realplayer feed

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

79. read tonight nt

[Greeby]

80. Just my luck to have CSPAN pack up on me at the crucial moment

:argh:

[Gregorian]

84. We all got bumped. Hey, at least we got most of it.

TV, later...

[Nothing Without Hope]

107. Mine stopped, and I reloaded the CSPAN page with the link. Worked.

It's still going and it's incredible. I never thought I'd hear this much truth on the Senate floor.

[Norquist Nemesis]

90. Mine's still going!

Using link with Realplayer. :shrug:

Ooops! Barton link just got 86'd.

[Norquist Nemesis]

82. DiFI: NIE lent itself to what was already going to be Admin Policy

well, duh!!!!

[Greeby]

86. New panel, Michael Smith included nt

:popcorn:

[Norquist Nemesis]

87. Panel #2: Joseph Cirrincioni (sp), Rod Barton, and "someone

from the UK".

Rod Barton up first via sattelite.

[Cameron27]

91. Who was named Righteous among Nations?

Smith...?

[lala_rawraw]

92. Michael Smith is from the UK - broke DSM story, among other things

by the way, I got it back on Real Player too... thanks Microsoft, as usual

[babylonsister]

93. After today, will this be getting anymore add'l attention, does anyone

know?

[Norquist Nemesis]

98. Well, if the MSM doesn't pick it up

hopefully the blogs will push it up.

[babylonsister]

104. MSM? Surely you jest! I'd be SHOCKED, I tell ya! nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

94. Michael Smith on the phone

and we can't hear him! :banghead:

[Norquist Nemesis]

96. Volume fixed!

Going through history with DSM.

[babylonsister]

95. Mr. Smith, associated w/the DSM, up now. nt

[lala_rawraw]

100. he is the brave defense reporter for London Sunday Times

who broke these stories

[cal04]

97. Mr. Smith talking mentioning downing street memos

Sunday tines of London

[Greeby]

101. Finally got back

Had to route through AOL

[Cameron27]

102. Sounds like a grudge match between bush and saddam...

5th document.

Most assessments from us relate to regieme change with no certainty as to how new regieme would be democratic..

[Norquist Nemesis]

103. Thread #3 up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1510020

[Cameron27]

105. Post war action would be protracted

Legality ... us would have to create conditions to make military action legal

[Stand and Fight]

108. I hope this replays tonight... This sounds explosive.

It bites being a cube rat. Thanks for feeding us though!