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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 09:47 AM
Original message
No Pardon for Libby

"Study a question from all sides, and you will be sure to discover where error has crept in."
-- Kahlil Gibran


Part One: The Waas Article

On July 3, the National Journal published an interesting article by Murray Waas, titled "Bush Directed Cheney to Counter War Critic." The article tells how people close to President Bush and Vice President Cheney describe conversations between those two, as well as what Bush told Patrick Fitzgerald in their June, 2004 conversation about the Plame scandal.

The article confirms previous reports that both Bush and Cheney had been involved in the decision to declassify a NIE in order to defend the administration from allegations made by Ambassador Joseph Wilson. And it actually takes an important step forward in identifying a goal od discrediting Wilson.

Waas quotes one "senior government official familiar with the discussions between Bush and Cheney" as saying Bush told Cheney to "Get it out" or "Let's get this out." That, as Waas noted, is very similar to Libby's testimony to the grand jury that Cheney told him that their goal was to "get all the facts out."

We know, of course, that Cheney and Libby were not interested in getting "all the facts" about the Niger yellow cake forgeries out to the public. Doing so would have discredited the administration in general, and the OVP specifically. Instead, they had another agenda.

Waas notes that while "other White House officials were working through a formal interagency declassification process to make public" information about Iraqi weapons programs, Cheney and Libby were making plans for Scooter to talk to reporters on the sly. He writes that it is "unclear why Cheney and Libby were apparently acting without the knowledge of other senior government officials," and that Bush was "unaware that Cheney had directed Libby to leak classified information" to reporters.

Bush, according to Waas's source, told Mr. Fitzgerald that "he had never directed anyone to disclose the identity of then-covert CIA officer Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife. Bush said he had no information that Cheney had disclosed Plame's identity or directed anyone else to do so."

The article raises a number of interesting questions. An obvious one is: did President Bush know that Plame was a covert CIA officer? One assumes that Waas's source would know if Cheney told the president. Equally interesting is to consider who was Waas's source? And why would he or she share this information with Waas at this time?

Part Two: Countdown

On July 5, Keith Olbermann and guest Larry O'Donnell discussed the Waas article on MSNBC's Countdown. The segment was a wonderful example of how the media can be used to either focus on what is important in the article, or how it can be used to spin misinformation. O'Donnell is, of course, a perfect guest for doing just that, as he has been both accurate in breaking news on the case, and in error in predicting the direction the investigation is headed in. For example, in July '05, he was the first to publicly reveal that Karl Rove had been Matt Cooper's source on Plame. But then, in October, he reported on his blog that "we now know that Rove has received a target letter from Patrick Fitzgerald," and he predicted "at least three high level Bush Administration personnel indicted and possibly one or more very high level unindicted co-conspirators."

Olbermann noted in his opening of the segment that, "Niceties aside, the point was not just to rebut Ambassador's Wilson's allegations, but also to discredit him." O'Donnell notes correctly that, "It's all turning on one senior government official." He then promotes that one senior official's agenda by saying, "It is a generally helpful story for Scooter Libby's image in terms of what he was actually doing in talking to reporters."

Olbermann asks Gibran's questions, attempting to identify where the error has crept into Larry's reasoning: "How does it help anybody in the administration to have a line that starts with the president, goes through the vice president, and moves on to Scooter Libby? Would that not be somewhat troublesome, were it to be aired out at the trial of Mr. Libby?"

O'Donnell then delivers the senior official's message: "Well, if this goes to trial. But if what we have here is groundwork for a pardon after the congressional election, say a Christmas pardon, this story would actually be helpful, because this story would put Libby in a position of having been authorized, and, in effect, ordered to get out there, making the administration's case about Joe Wilson's claims ..." Larry continues to let errors creep into his thinking when he adds: "And, you know, there were some very legitimate things that the White House was interested in, in Joe Wilson's op-ed piece. One was the implication, for example, Keith, that the vice president ordered this mission, which the vice president, I think at this stage, very clearly didn't."

Once the error has infected O'Donnell's thinking, he reaches a foolish conclusion: "And then you're left with Libby, who doesn't really have much of a role in this story, except to look like a good and faithful servant who is executing the mission the president wants him to execute .... They wanted to put out another intelligence report that was the opposite of Joe Wilson's report."


Part Three: FindLaw's Errors

It's important to recognize that almost everyone who has covered the Plame scandal has made errors along the way. Larry O'Donnell is certainly not alone in this. Sometimes it is a result of a journalist reporting what a source told them; in October of '05, Waas reported information about what Rove told Bush regarding his role in the leak that was later shown to be inaccurate.

At other times, insightful people have made incorrect predictions. On October 21, '05, in an article on FindLaw, John Dean wrote could not "imagine any of them being indicted, unless they were acting for reasons other than national security. .... I can see this entire investigation coming to a remarkable anti-climax, as Fitzgerald closes down his Washington Office and returns to Chicago. In short, I think this frenzy is about to end -- and it will go no further."

There are others, of course, who purposefully spread misinformation. For example, there was a June 28, 2006 article on FindLaw by one Matthew Segal, that appears to have been coordinated with the OVP attempts to advocate for a presidential pardon of Scooter Libby. While one can disagree with someone like Dean, and still have great respect for him, I find it difficult to have anything but contempt for the preppie Mr. Segal's brown-nosed attempt to ingratiate himself with Cheney and Libby.

The title of his piece is, "Should the President Pardon Scooter Libby? Why Even Administration Critics Should Favor a Pardon." His goal, nor surprisingly, is to "argue that even if you're an Administration critic who thinks this investigation is serious business, you should still favor a presidential pardon for Libby."

Segal instead provides a strong case for the old argument that one in ten attorneys graduated in the bottom 10% of their class. He is either so unfamilar with the case that he should not speak about it, or he purposely is telling lies to promote an agenda. Consider but a few examples ..... starting with his claim that the case "against Libby alleges politically-motivated conduct..." His evidence that the case is political, rather than criminal, is based on quotes from Joseph diGenova and Bill Kristol. Thus, he attempts to convince us that Libby's actions are "at best an effort to discredit Wilson's conclusions and, at worst, simple revenge on Wilson."

That, of course, is very different from what Patrick Fitzgerald told us during his press conference last October. "I also want to take away from the notion that somehow we should take an obstruction charge less seriously than a leak charge. This is a very serious charge and compromising national security information is a very serious charge. But the need to get to the bottom of what happened and whether national security was compromised by inadvertence, by recklessness, (or) by maliciousness is extremely important. We need to know the truth. And anyone who would go into a grand jury and lie, obstruct and impede the investigation has committed a serious crime."

Segal's nonsense continues: "By contrast, prosecuting Libby might deliver nothing at all. .... We do know, however, that Libby is probably not the key figure here. Indeed, Libby is not even the key player in his own indictment." That's odd -- all of the pretrial motions and hearings have focused on Scooter Libby. Does Mr. Segal know something we don't? Should he send a "friend of the court" notice to Judge Walton?

"Who is 'Official A'?" he asks. Considering that it is no secret that Karl Rove is Official A, one wonders how this is a mystery to the young attorney. Why, he asks, "have the facts remained hidden?" He suggests "that the story has either been completely overblown in the press," or else the administration hasn't been fully honest. Perhaps he should take Fitzgerald's place? Consider this gem: "And even if other potential witnesses aren't protected by a Libby plea bargain, they aren't likely to say more at a trial than they did to a grand jury, which apparently was not enough to identify 'Official A'."

Segal concludes that "because the investigation has revealed precious few facts and resulted only in the indictment of one possibly minor player," justice would be best served if the president pardoned Libby. He ignores not only what Mr. Fitzgerald has said, but the fact that the federal judges who heard the appeals of Judith Miller and Matt Cooper all agreed that there were serious legal issues involved in the case. None of them believed the case involved politics rather than potential criminal behaviors by major players. Segal's willingness to ignore this is disgusting.


Part Four: Honest Journalism

In a July 6 article in The Guardian UK, Suzanne Goldenberg reported the truth: "The revelation that Mr. Bush instructed Mr. Cheney to personally oversee the campaign to discredit Mr. Wilson arrives at an inconvenient time for a White House vehement in criticising leaks."

And Dan Froomkin's July 5 article "What Bush Told Fitzgerald," in the Washington Post, was also on target. "Publicly, Bush has consistently portrayed himself as not only uninvolved with the leak of Plame's identity, but utterly in the dark about it -- and determined to punish any wrongdoers. But Waas's story suggests that Bush was directly responsible for the sequence of events that resulted in that leak. .... it certainly seems clear by now that Bush knows a lot more about this case -- and his White House's enthusiasm for discrediting its opponents -- than he's let on in public. Isn't it about time Bush stopped pretending ignorance about this story -- and came clean about his own role? Why should that information only be shared with criminal prosecutors?"

Froomkin's wonderful article goes on to quote a Barton Gellman - Dafna Linzer article in the April 9 Washington Post,that noted the information "Cheney and Libby selected to share with reporters had been disproved months before." More, he quoted Warren Strobel and Ron Hutchenson in the April 7 Knight Ridder Newspapers: "The revelation that President Bush authorized former White House aide I. Lewis 'Scooter' Libby to divulge classified information about Iraq fits a pattern of selective leaks of secret intelligence to further the administration's political agenda .... Much of the information that the administration leaked or declassified, however, has proved to be incomplete, exaggerated, incorrect or fabricated."

It's rather difficult to see Bush's role in the scandal as justifying a presidential pardon for Libby. Quite the contrary: it is even more reason for citizens to demand the President honor the letter that Harry Reidand three other senators wrote to Bush in November of '05, requesting that he not deny justice in the case by pardoning Libby.

In fact, it provides strong evidence that the public needs to demand that the Plame scandal be a part of all this year's election debates. We need the House and Senate to begin investigations of the role that VP Dick Cheney played in the Plame scandal -- even if it leads directly to the role that George Bush played. That is why no one should consider talk of a pardon for Libby as anything other than part of a cover-up made necessary by the up-coming trial threatening to expose Dick Cheney as a criminal.

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Again, thank you for providing clarity on this
most complex case.

Bookmarked - K & R.

Do you have a prediction for Fitz' next step?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Thank you .....
for reading my essays.

I think Mr. Fitzgerald will be busy this summer with more of the pre-trial hearings to determine what evidence will be heard in court. I also think that as the summer comes to an end, there will be further efforts to reach a plea agreement. It is almost always easier to do this before an indictment, but I think Libby will feel the need to accept what Mr. Fitzgerald is offering.

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. On a side note,
what is the pic in your post? Looks like a collage with McCartney but can't make out the metal object in upper right or words in lower left. Just curious.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It is
the album cover of his "Red Rose Speedway," along with a bowl of my mini-roses. DUers who read my ramblings will also be subjected to photos of my roses. The recent floods did a great deal of damage to this year's crop .... but I will continue to be posting my roses! Over 1000 blooms so far this summer.....
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I am glad you and your roses have survived! n/t
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. thanks for this essay
That picture of McCartney looks like a ransom note.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Ha!
It was one of Paul's better mindless albums. Perfect for a lazy day, floating in the pool.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Your Rose Is A Lovely Antidote
To Scooter Stink.

Does anyone know what Joe Wilson's current take on the situation is? How does he think things are going?

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Wouldn't it be fun
to be able to talk, off the cuff, with him about the case? Think of the amount of information that he knows about, that isn't public. On July 6, for but one example, TruthOut reported on the 5-16 transcript of a pretrial hearing regarding the journalists that Team Libby wants to put on the stand. Among the more interesting things was the bit about Time reporter Massimo Calabresi, who had spoken to Ambassador Wilson at some point about Rove's chatter regarding Valerie.

If the Wilsons are indeed considering a civil suit against Rove, we may actually find out more about what Joe Wilson does think about the case.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. metal object...
looks to me like the carbeurator and engine cover to an old (new in the pic) Triumph motorcycle... beautiful machines if you can get them running. :)
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
I look forward to the trials.

I want this "Libby" trial to point to the Leaker at chief.

I also want Bush, et al tried for war crimes.

I realize this is asking for a lot.

But, I STILL believe!

Thanks H20man
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Things are good.
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Greybnk48 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
It sickens me that there is even a possibility that they will walk on this.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Hopefully, the fact
that Bush enjoys seeing others suffer -- even his "friends" -- will come into play on this.

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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. Larry O'Donnell
I am glad he dropped the bomb about Matt Cooper and KKKarl.... but - He got that scoop because he and Cooper are friends. Other than that, O'Donnell ain't got nuthin IMHO.

Libby is leaking like a never-changed baby. My hero (Patrick!) is driving them all crazy cause he ain't talking.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Larry knew
that two magazines were preparing "It's Rove!" stories for the next week. Thus, his Friday evening identification of Karl wasn't particularly brave on his part.

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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. Wonderful analysis as always. Although I think you're being far too
generous to O'Donnell and giving him the benefit of the doubt. I watched that discussion on Olbermann's show and it was obvious that O'Donnell was purposely trying to spin the story to benefit the White House. There's no way that O'Donnell believed a word he was saying. I was screaming at the TV the whole time he was talking.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Bush Apologists
have been out in force since Rove's lawyer made the claim that he won't be indicted.

BushCo is working very hard to convince the public that the investigation is over and Fitzgerald will be closing up shop soon. Again, they are trying to create their own reality. Makes you wonder what last ace they have up their sleeves that makes them all seem so smug? Or is it just a facade and behind the scenes they ripping each other apart at this point? The smell of desperation hangs in the air.



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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. AMERICAN JUDAS
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 10:17 AM by seemslikeadream

Suicide of Judas
1120-30
Stone
Cathedral of Saint-Lazare, Autun

Dick Cheney exposed Valerie Plame to cover up his association with A.Q. Khan's Nuclear Walmart. Read about it here: http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/AMERICANJUDAS.pdf or


AMERICAN JUDAS
Selling the Security of America and the World for 30 Pieces of Silver
By
Robert Paulsen
Compiled From the Research by Posters on “The Plame Indictment Threads”
At democraticunderground.com
1st Edition

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2178477#2180220
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Great resource - thanks for posting. n/t
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Second that - DU and the involved DUers were so far ahead of the curb
that they weren't even on the same highway anymore.

These things should be brought to the spotlight every now and then to remind people, especially all the new ones and those who don't have search capabilities yet.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. American Judas
remains one of the single best things ever to appear on DU.
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. So are you
:-)

Your "running analysis" of the Plame case shows a clarity of focus and a determination to get to the bottom of things that, when it would (have to) be applied by US politicians after the 06 landslide (whether apparent in the results or the resulting protest), would bring light to many a dark corner.

I believe this will happen.

Whether AQ Khan and Brewster Jennings ever get to the spotlight, is another thing.

Never Give Up.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Shucks H2O, I'm speechless!
:yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock:
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. So let's include the Waterman papers
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank you, I need to bookmark this thread!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. There is quite
a bit of good information in this thread. Probably too many of my pictures of my roses, but what the heck.

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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Not at all..
... the roses are beautiful and an omen of hope. Amid all this political BS it's nice to see the Earth is still making beautiful things :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Thank you.
I believe that old saying about how sometimes you need to stop and smell the roses is right.

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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. What a sweethart!
Daughter?

pretty roses too!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Yep.
My pool-soaked youngest daughter.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. Seeing your picture of what happened to the original Judas...
Makes me wonder how our American Judas sleeps at night.

:hi:
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. So it looks like "they" think
they can play Libby as the modern day Ollie North. Poor bastard was just doing his patriotic duty carrying out the pretzeldunce's wishes.

It still leaves the president holding the bag that he would get to the bottom of the leak and any leakers would be fired. It is then time for Bush to resign since he may have initiated it and lied to the American people about his involvement.

I sure hope something new pops up soon before I bury this case along with many other bush cases that will not be carried out.

We need more Input.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
22. So Is O'D Being Used?
He has had a lot of prognostications over the span of this affair. My most favorite and the one I was really looking forward to was that there would be an indictment a week, in the month, in the Plame affair. Zip. O'D likes to present himself as someone in the know and that ego thing has put him in the position of being used. He knows better than what he's saying so shame on him, and one has to wonder what his game is, and if it is anything more than getting his face before a camera. The one thing I personally think he was right about is that I think Rove probably did receive a target letter. It only makes sense when clearly he was a target of the investigation that brought him to the GJ 5x.

*shadow government*

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Interesting question.
I do not think that he was alone in being told that there were going to be more indictments. I do not know who his source(s) was/were. But if people on this thread are correct, it could include Cooper and people associated with Time.

One of the things that I think is important to keep in mind is that there are a lot of journalists and analysts who are good and decent people, but who are not necessarily better informed or more insightful than people we encounter daily on DU. There are some with greater access to Washington rumors. But the number of people who qualify as experts is relatively small. And even among them, using Dean as an example, they are not always right in their predictions.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Your Point Is Taken
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 04:08 PM by Me.
& valid. However I would begin to wonder, at some point, when they have been used for messengers of incorrect or dis-info time and again, why people would keep going back to the well?

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. I suppose that,
for example, Larry would prefer to get on Countdown and say what he did, as opposed to get on and say, "I don't know what the heck is going on," ..... or to not get on at all.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Jaded
But probable, which is why we shouldn't take his words as if written in stone.

*shadow government*
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. Another Thing
Is it really in B***'s best interests to pardon Libby? Isn't that as good as an admission. And if his legacy wasn't already in the toilet it would be then. He's now consumed with how history will view him and if we know anything about the felon in chief, it's that more than anyone, he is most concerned with what he wants.

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I suspect
that after the recent Supreme Court decision, President Bush may be less likely to consider Cheney's pal Addington the last word.

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'm about 90% certain there will be no pardon.
The only possible scenario in which I can imagine a pardon would be if Fitz closed the investigation before Libby's trial starts with no further indictments combined with the Dems NOT taking a majority of the Senate this November, which would preclude the possibility of a Congressional investigation into the Plame scandal in 2007. Since I don't see either of those events coming true, I'm very certain Libby will not be pardoned.

Even if one or both of those events came true, Dumbya needs a scapegoat for the history books, so that he has the "appearance" of not covering up the truth. Whether he really cares about that enough or not is open for debate. But Time is right, cowboy diplomacy is dead and the whole world can see the emperor for the clothes he's really wearing.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I agree.
My opinion of Bush was reinforced when he walked out on the WH lawn with Scott McClellan the day scott "resigned." Scott is his friend. But Bush blamed him for some of his problems with the media -- which is diagnostic in and of itself. McClellan was clearly upset, to the point he started to look like he was going to cry. Bush delighted in his friend's suffering.

From Wilson's book, we know that Rove blamed Cheney and Libby for "the problem" they caused the president. It is safe to say that the president also blames Dick & Scooter. I think that his personality type is such that he will see their facing convictions as justice, not for what they did to the Wilsons, but because they created a problem for him. I do not think that he would likely step in to save them by risking his own sense of position.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Yes, exactly. Bush is not going to exert himself on behalf of anyone not
in a position to do him a major favor, and he enjoys the suffering of others, especially when they are his "friends." Someone may have told Libby he'll be pardoned if he stays "loyal," but I can't see it actually happening.

Thanks for this anaysis, H2O Man. K & R
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
39. K & R nt
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i miss america Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
42. You are much more optimistic than me, H2O Man
After listening to whistleblower's Richard Grove story, I'm starting to believe that Fitzgerald is doing nothing but stalling.

Why is this whole sordid affair taking YEARS to play out?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. A couple things ....
The Miller-Cooper appeals took a significant block of time. Likewise, Team Libby has opted to have a significant delay before going to trial. Those two things add up to a good bit of the time.

The investigation was slowed by Ashcroft giving folks time to "bring the earthmovers in over this one," as Karl Rove gloated to a journalist in December of '03.

I do not think that there is any indication that Mr. Fitzgerald is running anything but a thorough investigation. I have 100% confidence in his ability to do the best job possible.
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i miss america Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Thanks. Too bad the wheels of justice seem rusted to the axle.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
43. Excellent post as usual, H2O Man
I think Libby has already lost his opportunity to get a pardon, if, as we found out from the Court Filings, it was he who told the Grand Jury that it was Bush and Cheney who ordered him to talk to the press. No doubt they expected him to lie to protect them.

At least Bush doesn't have to worry about pardoning his old friend Ken Lay ~ I wonder if Ken Lay was told to forget about it? I also wonder how Bush got the reputation of being 'loyal' to his friends?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Great point.
If Bush were going to pardon Libby etc, he probably would have done so in the first week of January, '04, at the latest. I think that people who worry about his last 14 days in office have a valid concern, although by then I think we will see it is no longer possible for Bush to rescue those in trouble.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I hope you're right ~ I think something needs to change
about the way pardons are handed out by presidents. For example, they should not be able to pardon anyone in order to gain some kind of immunity from prosecution themselves. I'm thinking of Bush Sr. eg. It really makes a mockery of the judicial system and places a president essentially above the law.

Otoh, Bush has so many 'friends' who are in trouble with the law and who are talking, I doubt he can keep track anymore.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
49. Thank you so much.
:applause:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
51. It's all those who "play" politics who melt reason into bs.
This part of your post impacted me most, "None of them (the judges, prosecutor, asst. prosecutors et al.) believed the case involved politics rather than potential criminal behaviors by major players. Segal's willingness to ignore this is disgusting."

Yes. These people are disgusting because they are playing games which serve no one other than themselves. It's incredibly gross how such people show such, psychopathic/narcissistic tendencies. What's particularly obnoxious is that, they get a piece of "special attention" while more normal, feeling, real, compassionate, intelligent, gifted folks are demonized.

No one can convince me I should proud of this nation, except those who are persistent in their stand for basic democratic principles, THE RULE OF LAW BEING ONE ANCHOR FOR DEMOCRACY.

I, again, humbly thank you for your contributions. I wish this site had more like you.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. You hit the nail
on the head. We are facing two related situations here. The first is the "how" .... we have an enemy that uses the media to lie to the public. As Minister Malcolm X used to say, if you believe the corporate media, you will be carrying an unmbrella on a sunny day, and getting soaked in the summer rain. Second, there is the "why" .... which is because we are dealing with an enemy that are sociopaths. They have no sense of right and wrong. They do not believe they have any obligation to other people. They are not guided by an internal moral compass.

Why, indeed! To paraphrase what a friend tauht me, many years ago, it is because in the world according to Bush & Cheney, it is acceptable that a person be a corporate leader, a politician with international standing, a Supreme Court justice, or a television "personality" .... and enjoy the "right" to be a racist, or a sexist, or a petty, vicious, lying, vain, envious, malicious, cowardly SNAKE! Because the "upper crust" of our culture have placed great value on the level of a person's knowledge, but have no sense of shame resulting from their low level of being.

And that, of course, is exactly why we find our nation -- indeed, the world -- in the predicament we are in at the present time. It is exactly why we are a nation that is largely unable to exercise any wholesome control over the immense forces of nature that our knowledge has unlocked .... and why, as Al Gore's new book/film documents, because that level of knowledge is so far advanced compared to our level of being, that our technology absolutely endangers our entire species future.
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