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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:20 AM
Original message
The Logic of Suicide Terrorism
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:22 AM by Emit
Interesting interview.

The Logic of Suicide Terrorism

It’s the occupation, not the fundamentalism


Interview with Associate Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago, author of Dying to Win suicide terrorism:


TAC: If you were to break down causal factors, how much weight would you put on a cultural rejection of the West and how much weight on the presence of American troops on Muslim territory?

RP: The evidence shows that the presence of American troops is clearly the pivotal factor driving suicide terrorism.

If Islamic fundamentalism were the pivotal factor, then we should see some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world, like Iran, which has 70 million people—three times the population of Iraq and three times the population of Saudi Arabia—with some of the most active groups in suicide terrorism against the United States. However, there has never been an al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from Iran, and we have no evidence that there are any suicide terrorists in Iraq from Iran.

~snip~

I have the first complete set of data on every al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from 1995 to early 2004, and they are not from some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world. Two thirds are from the countries where the United States has stationed heavy combat troops since 1990.

Another point in this regard is Iraq itself. Before our invasion, Iraq never had a suicide-terrorist attack in its history. Never. Since our invasion, suicide terrorism has been escalating rapidly with 20 attacks in 2003, 48 in 2004, and over 50 in just the first five months of 2005. Every year that the United States has stationed 150,000 combat troops in Iraq, suicide terrorism has doubled.

TAC: So your assessment is that there are more suicide terrorists or potential suicide terrorists today than there were in March 2003?

RP: I have collected demographic data from around the world on the 462 suicide terrorists since 1980 who completed the mission, actually killed themselves. This information tells us that most are walk-in volunteers. Very few are criminals. Few are actually longtime members of a terrorist group. For most suicide terrorists, their first experience with violence is their very own suicide-terrorist attack.

There is no evidence there were any suicide-terrorist organizations lying in wait in Iraq before our invasion. What is happening is that the suicide terrorists have been produced by the invasion.

TAC: Do we know who is committing suicide terrorism in Iraq? Are they primarily Iraqis or walk-ins from other countries in the region?

RP: Our best information at the moment is that the Iraqi suicide terrorists are coming from two groups—Iraqi Sunnis and Saudis—the two populations most vulnerable to transformation by the presence of large American combat troops on the Arabian Peninsula. This is perfectly consistent with the strategic logic of suicide terrorism.

~snip~

TAC: Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders also talked about the “Crusaders-Zionist alliance,” and I wonder if that, even if we weren’t in Iraq, would not foster suicide terrorism. Even if the policy had helped bring about a Palestinian state, I don’t think that would appease the more hardcore opponents of Israel.

RP: I not only study the patterns of where suicide terrorism has occurred but also where it hasn’t occurred. Not every foreign occupation has produced suicide terrorism. Why do some and not others? Here is where religion matters, but not quite in the way most people think. In virtually every instance where an occupation has produced a suicide-terrorist campaign, there has been a religious difference between the occupier and the occupied community. That is true not only in places such as Lebanon and in Iraq today but also in Sri Lanka, where it is the Sinhala Buddhists who are having a dispute with the Hindu Tamils.

When there is a religious difference between the occupier and the occupied, that enables terrorist leaders to demonize the occupier in especially vicious ways. Now, that still requires the occupier to be there. Absent the presence of foreign troops, Osama bin Laden could make his arguments but there wouldn’t be much reality behind them. The reason that it is so difficult for us to dispute those arguments is because we really do have tens of thousands of combat soldiers sitting on the Arabian Peninsula.




More: http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. The question is are they nuts or
committed and willing to die for their cause...Are Americans will to die for anything?
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I don't think they're nuts
Suicide missions aren't unheard of in the US military -- usually in cases where a soldier willingly sacrifices his life for his comrades. If we were invaded and occupied, I think you'd see it happening among the civilian population for the same reason. For the cause, for the family, etc.

It's more a product of sheer desperation than craziness, in my opinion.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'm not sure I agree
We are 'soft' different than the rest of the world. Can you imagine living daily, always knowing where the nearest shelter is? I think American, minus 10%, would expect our government to protect us from an invasion.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Brainwashed and frustrated
:( and they think their lives are shit, so why bother to live it. the next illogical step: If they are willing, ready, eager to die, why not take the "enemy" with them :(

Their "leaders/mentors" are very much like Bush.. Not willing to DO the dying, but more than willing to send someone else to do it :(
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. From the interview
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:40 AM by Emit
"This information tells us that most are walk-in volunteers. Very few are criminals. Few are actually longtime members of a terrorist group. For most suicide terrorists, their first experience with violence is their very own suicide-terrorist attack."

"Walk-in volunteers" -- sounds more like they're pretty desperate.

Edited to add that this interview was enlightening for me because this is a subject that seems so foreign to me -- I often ponder what the previous poster asked -- would I ever become so desperate? I just can't imagine that.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Women are a hot commodity in those cultures..
they are covered up/locked up and are "used" for barter in marriages. A young guy who is not well connected, and is socially immature may NEVER have his own wife.. That one thing can make a lot of young men(often jobless) very WEIRD..

the thing that normally settles down a "wild guy" is the tempering effect of a loving marriage and children. with little or no access to a young woman of their own, it's not unreasonable to see why some of these guys go off the deep end in their religion. The payoff is 72 virgins, remember? That;'s not the kind of payoff you would expect for a well adjusted family man...
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. This author's data suggests that
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:54 AM by Emit
"The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland."

Seems he believes it's less about their religiosity, and, I found it interesting that no where in his entire interview did he mention the 72 virgins.

I wonder how much our media and the powers that be in control right now want to make it about religion?

Edited to add, but, no doubt, the 72 virgin thingy is just a bonus for some, I guess.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Most of the information I read about suggests that the REASON
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:56 AM by SoCalDem
they want us out is because of our DECADENT western lifestyle, and the effect it has on the women..and once the westerners are out, the locals can concentrate on tuilding their society which just happens to be a fundamentalist , restrictive religious lifestyle.. How can they NOT mention religion?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Did you read the article/interview I posted?
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 02:04 AM by Emit
It differs from many of the other articles I've read on the subject.

Edited to add: However, this author brings up some similar points that the author of Imperial Hubris did -- that "US leaders" want us to believe that "Muslims attack us for what we are and what we think rather than what we do..." And that, instead, "a growing segment of the Islamic world strenuously disapproves of specific US policies and their attendant military, political and economic implications..." From Imperial Hubris
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I did read parts of it..One conclusion ties religion/nationalism, together
"His conclusion: “Religion plays a role in suicide terrorism, but mainly in the context of national resistance” and not Islam per se but “the dynamics of religious difference” are what matter (166-67)."

I have a feeling that no amount of analysis will ever really figure these people out..
I just always waonder how awful their lives must be..to be young and not want to live..and to be eager to kill people they don't know along with them.. there has to be some "mind control' somewhere..

The unifying element in the ones we often read about is the "radical Imam or mosque" where so many of these young men hang out.. Think about what the socail life must be for a young man who cannot date, or even party with his pals.. There is the mosque, though, where they can all gather and while away the hours "solving the world's problems"..

Think back to college, when we would hang out somewhere all night, drinking coffee and doing the same.. We never really solved anything, but it was an enlightening experience all the same, to sit and pick other people's brains for hours on end.. I don;t think their culture condones or allows this kind of thing..

another thing I oftebn think of is the parallel with these zealots and the gangs.. It's about the belonging..and doing what the group demands.. Some gangbangers are very well liked in their communities and are looked up to, even though they are common criminals.. They love their families and may even do good deeds...but their main thing is very anti-social dangerous behavior.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Good points, yes
I caught a Frontline special on gangs in/from El Salvador and the behavior was so -- well -- primal and brutal and chauvinistic, particularly within the gang itself. Kids getting beat as punishment -- kicked and punched (while babies watched nearby!), collectively by the gang, for a certain amount of seconds or minutes when they misbehaved or went against the authority of the gang. While watching, I was saddened by the hopelessness of these boys/men -- as you point out -- and I was aware of their resulting anti-social behaviors from this type of life. I think it is a testament to humans needing something constructive to do in their lives.

Anyway, I, too, doubt we can really figure these people out, but what caught my attention from this interview was some of the data presented: That their "clear strategic objective" was less about religiosity than "to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland...." and that "Before our invasion, Iraq never had a suicide-terrorist attack in its history. Never. Since our invasion, suicide terrorism has been escalating rapidly..." and that "Once the occupying forces withdraw from the homeland territory of the terrorists, they often stop—and often on a dime. ..."

Thanks for your input.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I think this might not be a very good study
Sunnis are suiciding against Shiites and sometimes Kurds
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Forrest Greene Donating Member (946 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Are Americans Willing
...to live for anything?
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sure.......
New car, new computer, IPOD, seasons tickets to their favorite team play offs.......

Welcome to DU!
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. ?
Not sure I follow.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. A bit of both
They are as frustrated and desperate as most muslim citizens.
But also they are the equivalent of our reli-fundies; their thinking is not entirely rational. So they are relatively easily coerced by terrorist recruitment organizations.

Given their desperate situation they aren't exactly dying for just "anything", and it's hard to tell whether or not Americans would be willing to die for a similar cause as long as such a situation does not present itself.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. A bit of both
They are as frustrated and desperate as most muslim citizens.
But also they are the equivalent of our reli-fundies; their thinking is not entirely rational. So they are relatively easily coerced by terrorist recruitment organizations.

see "Paradise Now" http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1314

Given their desperate situation they aren't exactly dying for just "anything", and it's hard to tell whether or not Americans would be willing to die for a similar cause as long as such a situation does not present itself.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. interresting way to frame what I have been talking about
"Suicide Anti-terrorism"
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Suicide Anti-terrorism?
I think I follow , but, just to make sure I understand where you're coming from can you elaborate?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. The suicide bombings in Iraq seem to be against sects, not the US
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 01:27 PM by barb162
I think they are being done to destabilize the Iraqi groups in power. Of course, I haven't seen anyone talking about it before they are doing it. But thanks for posting...it's very interesting
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. I've read interviews with Palestinian suicide kids
and some did it because they didn't like school, didn't like Israel, etc. There are suicide schools for kids run by Islamic Jihad
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