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DRAFT. The only answer that will turn this shit around. Would you agree?

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:08 AM
Original message
DRAFT. The only answer that will turn this shit around. Would you agree?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes. But that will be the straw that breaks the back finally. nt
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. If by "turn around" you mean "bring people together against the war"
Then yes, I do agree.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That is what I mean.
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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. I agree, too.

That's why there will never be on while the Repukes are in charge. And in the Democrats get to be in charge, there would be no need for one.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. I used to think so.
but I think some people want it to happen (rapture too)
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. Unfortunately, martial law is more likely than a draft.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 01:15 AM by Selatius
A terrorist attack that gives the corporatists who control the government the excuse they need to ditch the last vestiges of the Bill of Rights and introduce a purified form of authoritarianism in the form of "martial law" is more likely than a draft, but I could be wrong.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. I tend to agree
That or a real depression.
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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. Draft beer? .... it might help...
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Massive amounts! The good stuff!
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nope. We wil just sit here on our fat, lazy asses and go "cluck, cluck"
and wonder just What in the Hell some Knight in Shining Armor might come swooping in and save us from.

Otherwise, we are screwed.

We, as a Nation, have become worthless and useless.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
67. Yes.
Watching the Mexicans exercise their citizenship brings into high relief exactly what we've lost.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yep
People only care about thier own asses . Welcome to the new world order.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't think you really mean it. If they do a draft they aren't going to
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 01:19 AM by The_Casual_Observer
be playing games, they will send them to the ME & a lot of people will get killed. Make no mistake, if a draft happens they will get their monies worth from the draftees. A draft is very serious business, don't wish for something you really don't want.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. The exemptions will be interesting
I don't think they will get to allow the deferments like they did in Vietnam. The Republican chickenhawks might actually have to go.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:26 AM
Original message
I hope we don't have to find out.
There are better ways to teach the bastards a lesson, like get them voted out of office. Having a draft isn't going to make anything better, if they had more solders they will kill more solders.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Why is everyone so convinced there will be no exemptions? . . .
What possible shred of evidence have we seen in the past five years that convinces us there would not be exemptions, dispensations, exceptions, and immunities -- in a word, privileges, should a draft be reinsitituted.

This is not to attack you personally, Erika, but rather to question the conventional wisdom that's gained such credibility in recent years, that a new draft would not include means for the privileged to stay out. Every draft this nation has ever had -- and especially those held during widely unpopular conflicts -- has had means built in by the wolves who instituted it to protect their cubs. I see no reason to believe it wouldn't happen this time, too. We see daily affirmation that, as a nation, we didn't learn any of the "lessons" of Vietnam. Why should we expect that, as a people, we'll avoid the divisiveness of another unequal draft?
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. I'm afraid those most connected will find a way out. Call it POWER.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
60. Don't bet on it. The fat cats have never HAD to go.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. My post was not a wish. It was an attempt to see how others felt about
the issue. No way do I want more death. If I were queen (pft!)I'd end all American involvement in all conflicts around the world and use our money to find peaceful solutions. I'm just trying to imagine how we may stop what has spiraled out of control.I'm wondering: If the upper middle class had to send their kids, would they continue to support these maniacs? (we know the very rich won't have to)
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Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. NO!
No nation has the right to survive with slave armies.
Thank Ares I'm too old for it.
I could never stand by and watch my nieces and nephews sent off to their deaths so Carlyle Group execs can get richer faster.
I will take whatever illegal or blood splattered action it takes to get those kids clear of the Republican mess.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. I don't want a draft. I just think it is the only thing that may mediate
this rampant slaughter. When will it end? I say when Their children are called to war. right now, we don't have a draft and we can keep our kids out of it if we chose. (And so many don't, which blows my mind)
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
65. if you don't want a draft, stop suggesting one.
mass political action is the answer.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. My GOPrich friend who has blackmailed her son from going into the
service says the draft would be a real shame because that is how the poor kids were helped. Bless her heart.
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gkdmaths Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Sure, okay...
As an only son with Spina biffida, what do I care??

:sarcasm:

though, I do think that it would let the masses coalesce into a unified and ultimately victorious vote of "fuck no".
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zcflint09 Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. A draft may help turn public opionion our way...
But with thousands of 18-25 year olds in the ME getting killed daily, what will it really matter? What will it accomplish besides getting alot of people who have thier entire lives to live killed?

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Huh? n/t
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. That'll turn things
around all-right. What I hate is * is gonna leave the US in a world of shit just like ray-gun, and whoever takes his place will fucked no matter what he does.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. only if you're a Dem.....
A draft is the beginning of the end for the pubs, so we will not see it happen. We will pull out of the ME long before we fire up the machine again.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I could see them doing it
before, and I mean right before the end of *'s term. They might do it if a Democrat wins the White House, and we don't take back congress. I think under the right circumstances, they would love to use it to wreck a Democrat's Presidency.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. No, I have a proposal to turn this shit around a lot sooner.
We all expect Diebold/ES&S to (s)elect the next Congress in November. There is no hope of accurate vote counts. The election reform movement (basically started here at DU) has gathered GREAT momentum, but the forces of electronic election theft are already so entrenched (a coup that occurred in the 2002-2004 period) there is nothing on the horizon that will stop Stolen Election III this year. HOWEVER, there is a great protest brewing to BOYCOTT the voting machines by Absent Ballot voting. If enough people do it (and many are--it's up to 50% in the Los Angeles), it could bring this rigged election system down. If no one will vote on their goddamned rigged machines, and corrupt election officials are presented with MOUNTAINS and MOUNTAINS of Absentee Ballot paper to deal with (--into the shredder, you say? but NOT if the 65% to 70% of the people in the country who despise Bush all vote by AB; they can't get away with it then!), all their expensive, shiny, new election theft machines will be left gathering dust, and those who purchased them will look like the corrupt fools they are--because NOBODY WILL USE THEM!

Americans are overwhelmingly miserable about the Bush junta. This is the most hated regime in American history. If people are given a chance to protest it that they think will be effective, they WILL. Can you just imagine it? MOUNTAINS and MOUNTAINS of paper ballots! The election theft industry will have a heart attack! It's easy. Everybody can do it. It will help voter turnout. It will draw in cynical non-voters because it's a protest aimed at UN-rigging the system. It will also turn voting into an active PROTEST rather than a passive act of despair. This is the protest we've all been hoping would happen. It's been staring us in the face all along. And ordinary citizens have started it--in their individual efforts to get their votes COUNTED. What they want is a PAPER BALLOT, HAND COUNTED. They don't trust the machines. Now, many don't know that AB votes are not safe. (Often the corrupt bastards running our elections just scan AB votes right into the rigged electronic system, thus separating the vote from the tangible evidence of the vote, as with optiscans.) But that doesn't matter--or rather, it does matter, but it doesn't matter from the angle of this PROTEST, which is a REFUSAL TO VOTE ON THE MACHINES. A BOYCOTT. NON-COOPERATION. Like the Montgomery bus boycott, it says WE WILL NOT PLAY YOUR GAME ANY MORE, WE WILL *NOT* COOPERATE WITH OUR OWN SEGREGATION, and it hits them in the pocketbook. They've spent a lot of money on these machines, and have benefited from a lot of lavish lobbying. Now nobody will vote on these crapass, hackable devices. Ha!

A big AB voting protest won't solve the whole problem immediately, and it will not result in accurate vote counts this year, but it will create the momentum needed to get it done. It is a citizen REBELLION. It is a HEARTENING idea, and an EMPOWERING idea. Get rid of these goddamned machines or we will throw them into 'Boston Harbor' ourselves!

Bumper sticker: "Bust the Machines--Vote Absentee!"

American Revolution II. It's time!
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I Love You!!!!! But who can we trust to receive and count the ballots?
This is brilliant! I say let's start a campaign to get the word out by making our own signs and posting them on our car windows. That is the first thing EVERYONE can do very cheeply.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
64. We can't trust ANY of them! Most election officials have been...
...corrupted by Diebold/ES&S (lavish lobbying, $4 billion HAVA boondoggle, sucked in by money, secrecy and power). But that's WHY we have to bust their expensive, shiny, new election theft machines. Break their control. DON'T VOTE ON THE MACHINES! Hit 'em with MOUNTAINS of paper ballots. Of course they won't do an accurate count. They are jerks. So we've got to toss in a big monkey wrench. And this way--AB voting--we can vote (for what it's worth) AND protest the rigged election system. Also, if, say, all the people who despise Bush (70%!) vote by AB, this WILL bring more scrutiny to the counting of AB votes, and to the whole system. It's a way of precipitating the crisis needed for reform. In fact, if even 50% vote by AB across the nation (and it's already up to 50% in Los Angeles), or if 60% or 70% vote AB in just a couple of big states, the "crisis" will be upon them. It will panic the election theft industry. And a panicked enemy is easier to get to the table.

A note about optiscans: Yes, optiscans include a paper ballot--which gets dumped into a box and is never seen again. The vote is separated from the evidence of the vote. Audits (comparing ballot to electronic total) are often NON-EXISTENT, and none are sufficient; and recounts are extremely rare, and the corrupt system militates against them. So, optiscans are little better than touchscreens--especially with central electronic tabulators still in place, also using highspeed, TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code. AB votes are treated similarly to optiscan votes. They are generally scanned into this rigged electronic system. The difference between an optiscan vote and an AB vote is that you are NOT COOPERATING with the rigged system. You refuse to touch their goddamned machines. And if nobody will use the machines, what good are they? It calls the whole system into serious question. That's what we want: serious question! A public "vote of no confidence" in the rigged electronics.

The Dem Party and groups like Common Cause are now laying down the corporate strategy against election reform, in which optiscans are the fallback position--leaving the central tabulators and secret code in place. The touchscreens are so obviously rigged and riggable (many reports of blatant vote switching, right before the voter's eyes!), they will be "sacrificed" to save private, corporate control over the whole system. That will be the next fight (but it's also occurring parallel to this one--the corporate controllers several steps ahead of us). Russ Holt's HR 550 bans secret code in the "voting machines" (among other things), but it's a bit vague on whether this applies to the central tabulators, and--most importantly-- it doesn't have a prayer of passing in the Diebold Congress (and certainly not with the ban on trade secret code in place; it'll be the first to go, in a "compromise" with the Bushites), and I think the Dems know this. It looks good, though. (We do have a problem with collusive Dems.)

BOYCOTT *ALL* THE MACHINES! Bust the machines! Vote Absentee!
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Absentee won't help. If the count doesn't go their way
absentee ballots will be purged just like in the last 2 elections...
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
27. From your post I'll assume you have no sons or grandsons
either at or near draft age.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. That would be correct, but your assumption is wrong that I am pro draft.
I wanted to know what others think...I don't want war, period. I would never support compulsory military service. I have heard some say if government officials had children in harm's way, they would be less likely to support military solutions to problems that could be solved with diplomacy. I think those people would buy their way out.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
28. Didn't seem to work with Vietnam
Because despite the fact that young people were very organized against the war, Nixon still managed to get elected twice. And I'm of draft age so I would prefer not to be sent to fight Bush's oil war.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. Not this stupid shit again.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 04:21 AM by bowens43
No , it's a dumb-ass idea. Anyone who thinks that a draft will cause the children of the rich powerful to be put in harms way is a moron.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
30. If the freepers and the fundie wing-nuts get their wish...
and we end up in WWIII, yep, no American will be left untouched.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
31. There is no movement towards a draft.
Rove is not that stupid.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
33. A draft would enable them to plow right ahead with PNAC.
They want warm bodies at this point. We would be extremely to enact a draft.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
34. Maybe. I could see it coming back after a "national emergency" such
as another 911-style attack that will be pinned on Iran.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
35. No draft please.
I have no faith in the theory that a draft will suddenly cause a light bulb to light up over the heads of the American people.:think:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. I think it would make a lot of Bush supporters wake up and smell
the horse manure. And a lot of younger people who currently aren't politically active would suddenly get involved.

If we had had a draft in 2003, a lot of people wouldn't have been so gung-ho to invade Iraq.

Make no mistake: I am NOT in favor of a draft. I hated the draft in the '60s and '70s and still do. But I do think that would turn a lot of Americans against the Iraq War, and against the Junta.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. No it wouldn't
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:41 PM by NNN0LHI
My Republican parents wouldn't have been upset at all to have seen me get drafted and sent off to Vietnam to die like a dog face down in some rice paddy. Actually they would have been damn proud.

Nixon was their hero. They still think he got a bad deal.

Don
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. 100% Agree - You Change With Skin in the Fight.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
39. We will never be able to invade Iran without a draft
Bush doesn't currently have enough cannon fodder to pull it off.

Don
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
41. Won't happen folks....
This whole draft thing gets batted around incessantly for no good reason. There won't be a draft.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
42. I will never understand why any progressive would push for a draft.
It's like making a point that something is fragile by smashing it with a hammer. The draft is not a political tool, but a terrible necessity in a time when our freedom is actually threatened by an outside force. Our representatives should handle it with care.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
43. I don't want a draft-BUT-it's the only thing that will wake America up!
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:56 PM by TheGoldenRule
People are way too complacent and way too indifferent to what is happening.

When reTHUGs' kids get drafted things WILL change.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. You want to send some confused 19 year old kid to his death because...
...his parents are assholes who support Bush?

Real fucking nice you know?

Don
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Where in the FUCK did I say that?
Your post is as rude as hell and you need to stop twisting my words and get off my back!

What I was saying is that a draft is the only way things will change because thugs-who are the only ones who want this war in the first place-don't care who fights this war for them. But that will change if it's their own kids going to war.

BUT-Why am I trying to explain myself to the likes of you?! Where's that ignore button? :grr:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Your words: "When reTHUGs' kids get drafted things WILL change." n/t
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Who holds the power in this country? reTHUGS. Not dems.
* & his thugs fabricated and implemented this war. Not the dems. However, there are far too many dems in office who are backing the Iraq war right alongside the thugs, which is disgusting and sickening given that Iraq had NO WMDs in the first place. I want the war to end, but the way they've set it up, it will be endless, make no mistake. Look no further than how the majority of the warmongers in office are making buckets of money off of the war for themselves and their cronies. It's ALL GOOD for them, isn't it?! :puke:

They WILL look at it differently if it's their own kids. That's a FACT.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. 4 million young people turn 18 every year
The military inducts about 185,000 new recruits every year. That leaves a lot of peoples kids who wouldn't be needed for any draft doesn't it?

But you think taking 5% of the total pool of possible recruits is going to get the Republican warmongers kids if we start a draft?

:rofl:

Don
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. YOUR WORDS: "We will never be able to invade Iran without a draft"
Yup, YOUR words posted upthread. Everybody KNOWS that Iran is next up on * & Cos evil agenda. So don't give me anymore bull, would ya?! :eyes:

Because you know as well as I do that the FEAR ALONE of the draft is a great motivator-look NO further than the 60s-it sure lit a fire under most peoples asses to get up and DO something to STOP THAT WAR.

I think you just want to find something to pick on me, personally, about. Because there are plenty of other posts on this thread that have said pretty much the same thing as I have, in fact I've seen numerous posts just like mine on DU lately that I'd bet you haven't bothered to reply to.

Here's some advice: Go find someone else to vent your anger at. I have 2 beautiful nephews in their early 20s who I love dearly and who I want to see have families of their own-do you really think I really want a god damn draft?! Get a fucking clue.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
68. This ain't 1970
The science of mass hypnosis has advanced greatly since the days of Mike Douglas. I doubt there's anything that will wake people up. We'll happily poach in our bathwater brought to boil by corporate usa.
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Crowdance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. So, our sons should pay for our failure to maintain democracy?
This is simply shifting the burden of our failure from our own shoulders onto those of our sons. And my son is NOT available for this dark sacrifice. We've been asleep at the wheel, lacking any kind of courage whatsoever to do the hard work of keeping the tyrants at bay. I, for one, will not foist this burden onto my son and his cohort--whether rich or poor. I agree, BTW, that you won't see many rich kids turned into oil war fodder. The Bushes of the world are never swept up in that kind of slaughter.

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DemsRBetterLovers Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. as a soon-to-be member
of the LAPD, I am not eligible for the draft w00t!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
47. DAMN RIGHT..."it will make a man out of ya SON!"
Maybe a dead, man, is the part they forget to tell you!
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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. It will make people think twice.
It will bring it into the living-rooms of all families.

I don't know if that's the answer though.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
51. it may help but
They already have enough people desperate enough by design to join up , if it involved all and not only the poor then it may help but it's at really difficult to say at this point .
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
52. No
It would only make things worse by getting more people here and abroad killed. I disagree with this idea every time I see it proposed here and i'll never change my mind about it.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:29 PM
Original message
Your position is the same as the good Charlie Rangel of New York
I don't believe in mandatory conscription. It has proven to only give the state greater power than it deserves and has always been used unfairly.

That said, I agree with you, NoSheep, that should the Draft be re-instituted, the same uprising that existed in the 1960's against he war would re-occur and it would shut down this phony "war on terrorism" (or as Gore Vidal correctly calls it, "perpetual war for perpetual peace").

If the college students of today faced being drafted into war as they did in the 1960's there would be a hell of a lot more protesting the war going on in all 50 states.

So, I agree with your suggestion that the draft would "turn this shit around", but I would not support the draft being re-instituted as it would be just one more of our fleeting civil liberties taken away from us.

When you think about it, the state has always had its thumb on young women through forced pregnancy and its thumb on young men by the draft.

:thumbsup:


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. Would be fine, but richies avoid service at all costs. Money talks
and bullshit walks.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. I think the draft is completely immoral
If the people support a gov't's war, they'll join. If they don't, then we won't have the people-power to fight.

Forcing people to fight in a war they don't believe in is wrong.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
57. I know what you mean, but...
as a mother of sons, I can't go along with it.

I also think that a devastating depression will also turn things around.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
58. Dear USA: You did not pass the ERA, so you may not Draft my Daughters.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
61. agree....but it ain't gonna happen.
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
62. NO
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 09:46 AM by electron_blue
Nobody should be forced into this war. ever. Nobody should be in this war. ever.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
63. Yes. and I've been saying this for some time now.
This is not to say I necessarily support a draft, but that a draft will be the only thing that smacks the American public out of its apathy.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
66. No. Americans are like the frog slowly brought to boil.
There's nothing that the rightwingers can do, provided they do it incrementally, that the sheeple will object to or that the press will bring into perspective.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
69. I think you're all rather missing the point--a Draft is inevitable, and
it's the War Democrats who are going to do it. They will be Diebolded into the WH with a majority in Congress in '08, for that and other purposes. Think strategically for a moment--not about what you want or what you think would help stop the war. Your views don't matter, when our elections are controlled by Bushite electronic voting corporations, using TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls. This is a new fascist capability--which can put a 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites, warmongers and corporatists, without detection (one insider hacker, a couple of minutes, leaving no trace). Now, you think they've created this capability by accident, with no intention to USE it? If that is so, why didn't they create TRANSPARENT elections? It's not difficult. Nope, they deliberately created this NON-TRANSPARENT vote counting system for one purpose: to override majority opinion on the war and other corporate matters.

The Bush junta has created such havoc--a $10 TRILLION debt, for instance--that it will be difficult even to save Social Security. The country is going to come to pieces. That's another reason they want a Democrat in the WH--to take the heat. It will be the Democrats bashing heads in the food riots and other civil disorder. And the only paying jobs left will be in the army. The people may even be grateful for them (as some are now--joining the army to get a job and/or an education). And I hope it hasn't escaped everyone's attention here at DU that the Democratic leaders are enthusiastic Mideast warmongers. There are number of reasons for this--not the least of which is that the whole goddamned bunch of them (or nearly all) were THEMSELVES (s)elected by Diebold/E&S (which "tabulated" 80% of the nations votes in 2004, and a large percentage in 2002 as well). You wonder why the Democratic leaders have been SILENT--mind-bogglingly silent!--about Bushite corporations taking over the election system? Well, friends, I think we had better face it: it is collusion.

And I'm beginning to see the outline of the Republicrat plan: It's kind of like how the Bushites have gotten Israel to expand the Mideast war, by proxy. (Plan B of the Bushite/NeoCon "Project for a New American Century"--if the American people balk at a widened Mideast war (84% opposed!!), and all our allies and the whole world is against it, get Israel to do it, and then create some "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident to get us into it. Thus, the blame falls on Israel.) The Bushites are the avant garde of Fascist Corporate Rule. They are setting the pace--wholesale destruction of the New Deal and American progress values. Make it bad. Make it real bad. Pile on multiple tax cuts for the super-rich. Stir up bigotry against gays, brown immigrants, and poor Louisiana blacks. And women. Foster outrage at Bushite torture and spying and tyranny. Create a clever snapback for the War Democrats to ride into office upon--complete with Rovian-type pre-written election narratives about why the Democrats "won" in '08. But it won't be OUR Democratic Party. It will be THEIRS. Bought and paid for. Chosen for us by Diebold and ES&S in the primaries. And bent on policies that the majority of Americans overwhelmingly oppose, including a Draft of cannon fodder to finish the Mideast war. Oh, they will throw sops at us--maybe rescind a few fat-cat tax cuts, and "save" Social Security (by reducing benefits). We might even get universal health care--and no doubt A BIT MORE accountability. But we are never going to see the Halliburton billions, or the $10 trillion they've stolen from the future, again. It's gone. And the bite will be on the poor. And we are never going to see lawful, Constitutional government again. It, too, is gone. The Democrats will roll the secret government back A LITTLE BIT--for show--but they will NOT disavow most of the unlawful, unconstitutional power that the Bushites have grabbed. (Remember Kerry on torture during the campaign. You don't? Maybe that's because he said NOTHING about it. Nothing!)

The Corporate Cabal that is running things may have a long term plan to install Hitler II, when all of this falls apart--when the economy collapses, and they've fractured the center/left (a la Germany 1933). Riots in the streets. Big antiwar protests, and veterans' benefits protests. Hyper-inflation. No jobs. People losing their homes. Widespread hunger. Not to mention global warming hurricanes, floods and drought (and a potential collapse of earth's ecosystem). The civil disorder will all be aimed at the War/Corporate Democrats. And into that cauldron comes a "savior"--Jeb maybe?

I've described this scenario before. It first occurred to me in regard to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign (and how cozy she and Bill are with the Bush junta--it has all the appearances of a compact with the Dark Lords). But the recent Democratic leadership reaction to Israel bombing Bierut and invading Lebanon reinforces it. Where have progressive values gone? Where has the rule of law gone? Where have world peace and disarmament gone? Where has sanity gone? I now understand how most of them could have voted for Bush's war on Iraq (besides the obvious financial "military-industrial" complex motives.) THEY--the Democratic leaders--and collusive warmongers, and they are a lot more devious about than Bush.

I think we have ONE CHANCE to stop all this (or some similar scenario that does not include majority rule)--and that chance lay in the window of opportunity we have for election reform. But the tide is rolling against American democracy, and we must act fast. We do have a burgeoning election reform movement. However, there is nothing on the horizon that is going to stop election fraud this November. The corrupt entrenchment of NON-TRANSPARENT vote counting happened too fast. What do we do?

My proposal is massive Absentee Ballot voting. DON'T COOPERATE with these new election theft machines. REFUSE to vote on them. Send our state/local election officials MOUNTAINS of AB votes to deal with. AB voting is not safe, but it IS a PROTEST--and one with the potential to bring this rigged election system down. If enough people do it (and many are--it's up to 50% in Los Angeles), the rigged machines will be rendered obsolete--all these expensive, new, crapass, hackable voting machines gathering dust--and we will have created a crisis in the election theft industry, and the opportunity for reform in the only place in can happen: state/local jurisdictions.

70% of the American people despise the Bush junta. If this huge dissenting majority--or some significant portion of it--votes by Absentee Ballot wherever possible (most places)--it will create the conditions for local election reform in favor of TRANSPARENT vote counting. The beauty of this protest is everybody can do it. It's easy. It will HELP turnout. It provides a motive to vote in a rigged system. And it will fight demoralization by turning voting into an active, positive protest instead of a passive act of hoping against hope for a better outcome (and always getting a worse one).

TRANSPARENT vote counting is the vital first step in restoring democracy. It's working in South America. It can work here. But we must do something NOW. If we wait and let them steal another election without significant protest, and just wring our hands and work for FUTURE transparency, I think the game is lost.

An Absentee Ballot voting protest is the answer! Many people are doing it already--in a desperate effort to get their vote COUNTED. We need to support that indigenous effort. All it needs is a bit of leadership and focus, and it could be huge. It can hook in all the people who are very unhappy with this regime, but would never go to a street protest, or are unable to. People with 3 lowpaying jobs and kids and the elderly to take care of, and can't go to meetings and hearings. People who don't vote because they are so disgusted. (This gives them a reason to vote--to un-rig the system). And all people who support honest elections, or who hate being told they are too stupid to understand the obscure electronics by which their votes are being "tabulated." Pissed off people. And I think there are a whole lot of them in this country right now. Ripe for an effective, doable protest--that has just enough mischievousness to it, to appeal to American voters on a widespread basis.

Make an Absentee Ballot vote into a VOTE FOR CHANGE! A few forests may suffer in the short term, but in the long term, we may save our democracy this way--and it is only by democracy that we can get our environmental laws enforced, and save this dying planet.

-------------------

Why vote for Democrats (generally our only choice)? A fair question--considering what I've just said about them. We cannot overturn the war establishment overnight. We have first to restore some sort of accountability, and then work on increasing that accountability. Right now, NO ONE in Washington DC is accountable the people. No one! A few are good souls, who are trying their best to represent the real interests of the majority. And here and there, we have genuine (elected) officeholders. But virtually none of them really has to listen to us anymore. They are NOT (on the whole) elected by US. They are (s)elected by electronic voting corporations with very close ties to the Bush junta--and they (most of them) vote with the junta on the really important issues (war funding!). It is THAT relationship that we must disrupt--the relationship between DEMOCRATS and electronic voting. Not Republicans (they're a lost cause). Democrats! The Democratic Party is very corrupt, but it remains our only vehicle for change. And we must break its support of rigged electronic voting at the STATE/LOCAL level. So I would say the first goal of voting this November must be to disrupt and reform the rigged electronic system. Not disrupt the election. Disrupt the RIGGED SYSTEM, by Absentee Ballot voting. And the second goal is to elect the most responsive and accountable Democrats (or others) on the ballot.

We need to do a lot of hard work on accountability, WHILE we un-rig the voting system. We cannot do the latter by persuasion (of corrupt officials). We must force the issue. But accountability is a different matter. It requires persuasion--working with half-corrupt, or half-progressive Democrats. We have to deal with reality--and think strategically, which means a realistic assessment of our resources. For instance, a Dem candidate who is moved by good government issues, like transparent elections, or is for financial accountability in military contracts, but may be for a widened Mideast war and/or a Draft. The first issue (transparent elections) is so important, and so critical to our ability to stop this war, that it by far takes precedence over any other--even a pro-war stance by the candidate. (We're not going to find many pro-war candidates who want transparent elections--I'm just using it as an example of the realism we need to apply, to get the system un-rigged.)

Bust the machines! Vote Absentee! Spread the word!


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Bush_MUST_Go Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Come on, other than our tax dollars being wasted on bush's war......
Americans are barely aware there's a war going on.

The ONLY sacrifice we have been asked to make by this wartime president is to go out & spend money.

We don't need a draft to wake people up.... we need to see & FEEL this war.

And take away the tax cuts to the rich to help pay for this mess & you'll see how fast their eyes open up.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
71. The Draft did not bring an end to the Vietnam war and it ...
won't bring an end to this war either. What brought an end to the Vietnam war was time, 55,000 dead GI's and the war images in news papers, magazines and on TV.
Probably the best thing you can do to end the war is to E-mail the most gruesome pictures of the war to anybody you know that supports it
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