The 800 pound Elephant in the Room

[Singular73]

I need some explanations on some things:

* What happened to election fraud? What happened to Diebold stealing the election?

* Why didnt Bush put all democrats in jail under the Military Commisions Act?

* Why hasn't the Supreme Court declared the US a police state yet?

I just want some of you to consider, that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and that some of the paranoid delusions some posters here have, don't hold the monopoly on any Truth. When we beleive we have the monopoly on Truth, we end up like the Republicans. Delusional.

[LeighAnn]

1. Explanation for election fraud

The Democratic votes were so many that they overcame the "fix". Votes for Democrats were likely far higher than what the record shows.

[Singular73]

2. Why not flip Virginia? Or Montana?

[Name removed]

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[Strelnikov_]

38. They Tried. Too Big Of A Wave

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2632227

[frankenforpres]

3. hilarious (n/t)

[Name removed]

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[file83]

4. The answer to all your questions: YOUR ASSERTIONS ARE ALL WRONG.

The fact that so many eyes were watching the elections this time around intimidated any potential election fraudsters from tampering with the machines. But don't be blind to the fact that different forms of it (robo-calling) occured in the days up to the election spreading all kinds of disinformation to disinfranchise Democratic voters and turn people against Democratic Candidates in a fraudulant manner. So, in that respect, "we fought back" is the answer to that question, but some of your assertions that it straight up didn't occur, are wrong.

Your second question is a straw man argument. There was never a commonly held belief that he would lock up "all democrats" - sure some joked about it - but the real threat from that M.C.Act was that he could dissappear individuals LEGALLY and we'd never know about it. As far as you or I know, this could have happened, but as it stands we probably will never find out.

Your second question is off track - It's Bush that holds that power declare Martial Law, so not sure what you are talking about there. Explain the reality/perception of your claim if I'm missing something there.

[Malikshah]

Bingo-- the issue with the last two OP points is the principle of

the matter-- not whether many folks' fears come to fruition, but rather that the unchecked regime had/has the freedom to do so.

As long as Habeas Corpus has a knife in its back--thrust by the present regime--then our country is not altogether whole. We must remove the knife through legal means and burn it.

[Marr]

5. It seems to me that they did try to steal Virginia and Montana.

I personally think that they realized too many people were watching- and that the general public is now aware of the election fraud issue. So they tried to steal it as subtly as possible. The House was largely assumed to be going blue, so that was out of the question- but the Senate could be held by just taking a couple of races.

I think they tried, but just didn't cheat hard enough.

[lonestarnot]

6. Who are you calling delusional?

Guess you still believe we have a Bill of Rights?

[Dhalgren]

7. Sorry. But buck up, maybe next election, eh?

[Lex]

8. Encountering hyperbole on an messageboard. You're kidding me?

And, by the way, just because a worse case scenario doesn't play out, doesn't mean that a problem never existed in the first place.

[Singular73]

12. Sure it does.

A few weeks ago, we were all going to prison in Halliburton built immigration camps, remember?

We were all offering ourselves up for "TAKE ME FIRST IM AN ENEMY COMBATANT" threads, rememeber?

Lets be honest here.

[Lex]

16. Actually I have the ability to not believe every single thing I read

on any messageboard. Here or anywhere.

You might want to consider the same.

It will probably cause you much less angst later.

[Singular73]

21. I certainly do.

I'm not speaking to the general poster. I'm speaking to the paranoid bell-ringers that infest these boards, and throw us off track.

[Lex]

28. Funny thing, pretty much everyone gets to post here.

The alarmists, the optimists, the hand-wringers, the sad, the happy, and everyone in between. Even the "paranoid bell-ringers" as you call them.

The truth is that many outrageous things are quite thought-provoking.

It's important to be able to read and be discerning about what you get caught up in. Not just here, but on ANY messageboard.

[Singular73]

29. Agreed.

I'm just trying to talk some people off the ledge at this point.

I mean, for gods sake, Democratic Underground singlehandedly made Karl Rove a deity.

And thats not healthy.

[Rockstone]

43. I resent that remark

it is mental illness, not a deliberate attempt to mislead. So give us conspiracy theorists a break.

[prayin4rain]

24. Humour

I think some of the subtleties of this board are lost on you~

[Warpy]

9. I think the election fraud occurred,

but the 4% flip that has occurred in the past simply wasn't enough to compensate for the anger of most voters.

They weren't quite ready for the prisons and labor camps. Remember, they're not that stupid. They know they have no mandate. The same goes for the USSC, disgraced since the shameful appointment of this gang of thieves in 2000. If they want to see their Lexuses and Range Rovers burning in the streets, that's the way to do it.

[Singular73]

10. Why bother stealing elections...

if you aren;t gonna flip 10,000 votes in Virginia?

Why open yourself up to investigations and new laws where Dems can CHANGE election laws to require a paper trail if you can steal the vote?

Why take that EXTREME risk?

Yes, #2 and #3 were parodies of some of the paranoia people here have (though rightly so), but like I said, I want people to consider that their own opinions are probably not the Truth.

I discovered this myself a few weeks ago. And it wasn't anyone that changed my mind. It was reading the demented Freeper boards for about an hour -- they convinced me that neither side can be correct. Its statistically implaussible.

[txindy]

11. Ask right here... (Or do these questions in FL scare that elephant?)

Yeah, thought so. The elephant left the building.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2647434

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2653483

[alittlelark]

13. The evil and power hungry are NOT STOOOOPID

The polls were damning... their election machines had been exposed to way too many ppl, computer professionals were all over their asses. They were hoping to keep the Senate - check the exit polls vs the actual vote count in the last 2 races to be decided (Tester/Webb). Compare those exit vs actual to the 4 obviously won senate seats.


As to your last 2 astericks.... you're on the wrong site bud.... if you wanna be psycho paranoid go to one of the gun-nut sites.
b*sh couldn't have gotten either one of those done w/o support in the next 2 years and another 'terrorist attack'.

[Singular73]

17. So now you are making excuses for the hitlerites?

Very interesting.

Im not trying to start a flame war, its just that after the events of the last few days, we need to look back and learn from our mistakes.

[Name removed]

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[Singular73]

22. Yes, I've waited for years to make this post.

You've found me out. Im so busted. :silly:

[Name removed]

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[Emit]

14. I am not sure they really needed a Republican win

For discussion, including my own comments, See:

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=65469&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Does that make me delusional?

[prayin4rain]

20. Vigilance not paranoia

If we weren't 'paranoid' and therefore creating awareness and watchdogs.....they would have stolen the election

And there are MANY innocent political prisoners at this very moment

And 'police state' is defined differently by different people. Ms. Sheehan was arrested.... AGAIN for protesting

Our vigilance or 'paranoia' helps keep those things from happening.

[Tom Joad]

23. I think some are missing the dead elephant in the room.

I agree with your point, that some posters think anything bad that happens to the democrats is the result of Rove or some plot somewhere. and it looks rather foolish at times. oth, there is truth that voters have been disenfranchised, the admin is limiting civil liberties and so on.

[Singular73]

26. I agree with that

Voters have been disenfranchised for years, especially African Americans and Native Americans, using methods more obvious and brutal -- say non-nuanced -- than now.

But the Halliburton Concentration Camp paranoia that went on here for the last few months had me a bit worried about the sanity of some of the left-wing base.

The MCA still has me worried, but I've always beleived it was done for transgressions of the past, not the planned ones of the future.

Did awareness lead to lack of stolen elections? Doubtfull.

[The Magistrate]

30. Well Said, Mr. Joad

It is a pleasure to find some points of agreement with you, Sir.

[lonestarnot]

31. Tom Joad do you believe the Bill of Rights to be unscathed by

this administration?

[Tom Joad]

41. It is being ripped apart and shredded like wheat. I said in my post

that Bush Co. was curtailing civil liberties. Yes, that is an understatement.
My point is that not all bad things eminate from Rove. We know that sometimes, some posters, get carried away with that idea. If a Democratic picnic was rained out, they'd think that Rove did cloud seeding. I also acknowledge the problems with elections, disenfranchisement, robocalls, and so on. I also think we should work with paper ballots.

How can anyone read my post and think your statement would be true? another example of jumping to conclusions.

[frankenforpres]

37. i agree with you

i believe there should be a paper trail. i also believe with all of the telecommunications, the party can make people aware of who to call


i want the election to be clean

[Tom Joad]

42. I agree with you too. eom

[NoBorders]

25. That's a pretty small elephant.

I'm assuming you meant to be ironic???

[Singular73]

27. Its just a baby elephant

;)

[mmonk]

32. Sorry but the MCA is unconstitutional, an abomination,

and must removed. This is not paranoia. They are acting in contravention of the constitution and your rights. Ask people currently being held without charge, right of counsel, right of trial if they are delusional. Delusional is not seeing this as a grave threat.

[alittlelark]

39. Many do not WANT to see how close we are/ were to the precipice.

The MCA in unconstitutional, against all military codes, and a monstrosity of a slippery slope....


It is amazing how few ppl see it as such - the rest of the world gets it. Why is it that many Americans don't - even those posting on this site.

[hlthe2b]

33. There was one "shoot on sight" order issued.... really...

It was for Karl Rove! :rofl:

[Ecumenist]

34. Pretty skinny elephant...

But I get the idea. Just a theory and may actually seem to be tinfoil-like BUT could it be that the fact that they'd purged so many REAL intelligence agents who turned around and bit them in the rear end? Could it be that these same people put a halt to the reach of these criminals? Whadya think?

[SeattleVet]

40. Well, the current crop of lame-duck congresscritters go back to work

tomorrow, and continue in office until January when the new class takes their seats.


A lame duck congress can do a whole lot of damage before we get our country back. Don't put anything past these bastards; they have nothing to lose now.

[seabeyond]

44. do you recognize the effort dems had to present all the sleaziness

and manipulation, and voter suppression, and covering machine issues on election day.... do you grasp at all the challenge.... blogs, dems, lawyers working to allow voters to vote on tues.

you act as if there was not problems on tues. there were soooo many problems dems had to be on top of all day long.

wtf

why arent you pissed

what if we actually simply allowed the vote on tues without all the energies to challenge allllll the abuses the repugs committed on tues.

if this isnt addressed, every election day will be dems working ass off to make sure repugs are NOT fucking with our vote. there is a problem with that, dontcha think?

that isnt an issue for you?

firstly

secondly... there are races i want looked at closely. i think there was some "theft" going on