Paraphrasing Ghandi, if asked: "What do you think of American Democracy?"

[omega minimo]

(Imagined) MG: "I think it would be a very good idea."


:hi:


Can we please have fewer of the opinionated, info-free, rhetorical questions and strawman polls and MORE informed threads, since we're on a precipice and all.......... ? (oh and that war, too.....................)

One of the quotes I found on www.downingstreet.org pointed out that Congressional investigations and impeachment will provide an opportunity for another generation (or two or three) to learn about the Constitution and the governmental process.

If we're going to talk about these issues at this important moment, what's wrong with making sure we know what we're talking about?

[everythingsxen]

1. Are you referring to my thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2843815

I do not believe that the current system we are using is entirely fair and is a tad bit broken. I was merely asking what others thought of it. I am sure going back in time to Ghandi, explaining how the system works and comparing it to say, Canada's Parliamentary Democracy, I think he would choose option #2.

And I do know about our Democratic system as well as the other "brands" of democracy as I was recently involved in a debate (real world) on the nature of democracy.

[omega minimo]

3. " "Brands" of democracy" ?

See, there's a conceptual problem right there. And if you're viewing this as a marketing exercise.................

You may be informed and the choices in the poll may reflect that. Yet the intro and phrasing of questions played fast and loose with the concept of democracy and "what we have now." It may invite and perpetuate more confused opinions than informed votes.

Ghandi, when asked the question "What do you think of Westen Civilization?" replied,

"I think it would be a very good idea."

In the loose net you cast around the concept of democracy before asking people to vote, there seem some gaps in what the system we have is and whether it is functioning or not. Maybe we need to check the function rather than assume the system needs to be replaced. "A tad bit broken"? Although this is the age of "it's broken, throw it out, get a new one," the Founders carefully crafted a codifying document for the ages, back in a time when planned obsolesence probably would have been viewed as incredibly wasteful, if not insane.

"An informed electorate" is an integral part of that function, that process.

There are so many rhetorical questions and polls thrown up on DU that muddy the waters.

Here's a brilliant one that does the opposite:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2831928&mesg_id=2831928

[everythingsxen]

5. Flavors if you prefer, or styles.

I think I made it clear that I was talking about the system itself.

And the system is broken. Having two dominant juggernaut parties does not represent everyones opinion.

Even if the electorate is "well informed" it does nothing to stop the two gigantic parties that run everything. And if you check the thread, several of the replies have been "It is fine as is, if we fix X"

[omega minimo]

7. Have you checked out that linked thread? Brilliant. Goes to the core of it

:kick:

[everythingsxen]

9. Yes I was reading that thread..

either yesterday or the day before. It was a decent post, however, the basic problem is that DU is a message board on the internet. As far as I know, the US does not change policies based on what a bunch of people say on the internet, otherwise they would read Free Republic and nuke Iran.

That being said, I posted a question that has been on my mind, as everyone else frequently does. Are you saying that there should only be one or two really serious and important threads that are active? That other discussion is superfluous and irrelevant?

Come on, live a little. Besides, as you point out the Founding Fathers set things up a long time ago. Before they even imagined the possibility of some of the things we have now. I just think a revision is in order, not with less freedom, but with more voting power to the people.

[omega minimo]

12. That DUer sees the potential of DU. It was not about "US does not change policies based on........."

That OP, like this one, suggests that the forum can do more to inform and motivate people, which would lead back to your questions about the system of government....

:patriot:

"Brands," "Flavors," "Styles" -- all marketing, not governance.

“And if you check the thread, several of the replies have been "It is fine as is, if we fix X"”

And yet that was not a choice in the poll or mentioned in the OP. That absence suggested a gap in awareness: that one option we have is to correct, maintain, or renew the system that we have, rather than assume a new system is the (only) answer.

“More voting power to the people” is possible simply by getting more people to vote, considering how many people intentionally (or lazily) disenfranchise themselves by not voting. The recent turnout and gains by Democrats are proof that FINALLY enough people can get scared or pissed off and say “Screw you bastards, you’re not taking THIS one away!!”

As for your other questions, that linked post by Exiled in America says it all:


“I am extremely frustrated by the content of the biggest discussion forums hosted on DU. And quite frankly I'm a little embarrassed to think that these discussions would be any kind of cross section of the people in American who make up the Democratic Party.... Now, I understand that in some of these instances, the issues themselves have importance - but not comparative importance to issues absolutely critical to any hope of future social or economic justice or equality in America, which I almost never see as threads while these other topics dominate the boards... I cannot believe that this democratic underground cannot find a way possible to have significant thread discussion devoted to emphasis on human needs and what human needs priorities should take precedence in a democratic congress.”


****And this goes directly to the issues you raise about systems and (limited) choices and “more voting power to the people.”


“Some of the most serious historical harms to this country have come in the form of the exploitation of labor and the elimination of strong labor protections in favor of a state of corporate welfare. And please listen to this opinion: it is the unchecked, unbridled rise of corporations that have transformed America into an Oligarchical Corporatocracy that are the ROOT behind the war and violence on the GOP agenda. It is the root behind the notion of preemptive empire-building. And how many threads are devoted to discussing it, or researching it, or talking about the best ways for the people to fight it, or how to develop direct action to counter it? Let's just say in between all the other fluffy threads, its hard to find a lot.

...............................
“There is next to nothing on DU about any of that, or how our government actively, aggressively pushes that agenda, nor how our own Corporatocracy at home fuels the decimation of developing countries around the globe, thus creating much of their own violence and devastation. We never talk about that.

“Education isn't even a national priority right now, but I sure wish we here at DU were committed to making it one, and I wish that the topics and threads in the major forums would reflect that more often it reflected threads about whether or not cows were people to. Health Care has taken a back seat to everything else, even though health care in America is an absolute embarrassment and disgrace and millions of people and their families still cannot get access to the adequate health care they need in what is supposedly the richest and most powerful country in the history of the world. But there are no threads talking about what organizations are moving to change this, or what people are speaking out about it, or what the best ideas should be, or what kinds of opportunities there are to get involved in these fights.

“What I'm complaining about it is an emphasis or focus that seems utterly ridiculous to me considering the number of serious and absolutely critical issues there are to deal with right now. And it pains me quite a bit that I can't see at least as many topics and posts devoted to these issues as I can about whether a guy should be allowed to smoke inside his own single person apartment or not.....”

[cool user name]

2. I thought he was referring to "Western Civilization"

... not American Democracy.

[omega minimo]

4. Yes, TY. Post said "Paraphrasing" "if asked" and "imagined"......

Sorry if that was not clear enough :thumbsup:

[cool user name]

8. Oh, no worries ...

:hi:

[H2O Man]

6. "You are very much

mistaken if you imagine that true democracy obtains either in America or England." -- Gandhi

[omega minimo]

13. "Everything you do is insignificant........"

"and it is very important that you do it" -- Gandhi

Thank you H2O Man

[MazeRat7]

10. Here is a quote that is "not imagined" and directly applicable to this country...

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

MZr7

[omega minimo]

11. "Animals"? How 'bout.........

"Workers"?

or even
"Citizens"?

:wow:

[MazeRat7]

14. The point of the quote is pretty straight forward....

The manner in which an "advanced" society treats its "Citizens" or "Workers" is directly proportional to how it treats other life forms they encounter each day. Your post seems to indicate this is somehow a foreign concept :eyes:

MZr7

[omega minimo]

15. Animals are treated better than Workers

[MazeRat7]

16. Yo.... dude, pass it.....

And while your tokin' on the great blunt of deniabliliy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os3t7lqTdKY">watch this video....

then get back with me for more discussion.....


MZr7

[everythingsxen]

17. Here is another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbXsxS7N2t0 It is about fur trade animals.

Though I admit I am a carnivore, watching these videos with the utter cruelty to animals makes me think some of these people who torture animals like this should be the one cooked and used for food.

What kind of sadist does that to animals?

A quick merciful death is all I ask for in the animals I eat. A quick painless death after a life led well. That is how it should be. And I thank the animal for it's sacrifice.

[MazeRat7]

18. Ding ding ding... we have a winner...

And that is why I chose that particular Ghandi quote... I suspect he would use it to describe "American Democracy" as well....

We don't even let our animals be animals and lead the life they were created to lead... we lock them in cages, in conditions that make Gitmo look like the Ritz, and then wonder why we treat our workers and others that are supposed to be equals in such a cruel manner.

Thanks for to vid....

MZr7

[omega minimo]

19. "Some Pigs are more equal than others"

-- George Orwell

[H2O Man]

23. "Only living things

bring living joy to the soul and must elevate the soul." -- Gandhi

I think that your focus on our non-human relatives is very important. Thank you.

(*** Also, while I do not tend to care if people spell correctly, I think that we should make the effort to spell "Gandhi" correctly. In the OP and in several posts that follow, a few people continue to err on this. It is a matter of respect.)

[omega minimo]

26. Thanks for providing correct spelling of GandHi

OoooooOPs :blush:

[Selatius]

20. If I were Gandhi, I would've thought "American democracy" was a terrible idea.

On the idea of civilization, it's a good idea, but the US political system is one case I take exception with out of nearly all the industrialized nations of the world except maybe that one party oligarchy in Japan.

Having a president relying almost totally on the intellectual sluggishness and ignorance of the population is hardly a "good idea," and it's especially not a good idea if you ended up being one of the 655,000 dead Iraqis. For you, the message is "tough shit."

[omega minimo]

21. Good twist on it. Yet the principles of democracy don't boil down to

"Having a president relying almost totally on the intellectual sluggishness and ignorance of the population"

It is the abuse of the principles and powers of American democracy that resulted in "655,000 dead Iraqis."

[Selatius]

22. Not the principles, per se, but the structure.

A few things off the top of my head:

1. Corporations have human rights.
2. Lackluster campaign finance laws, no effective public financing of campaigns
3. Gerrymandering, a problem with the current two-party system.

If I could have the principles without those three, I'd say the country would be a whole lot healthier than it is. The structure of the government deserves a lot of criticism.

[H2O Man]

24. A few quotes

that you may enjoy:

1- You cannot build non-violence on a factory civilization.

2- Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood.

3- The ideally non-violent state will be an ordered anarchy.

4- Without having to enumerate key industries, I would have state ownership where a large number of people have to work together.

-- Gandhi; from Thomas Merton's "Gandhi on Non-Violence"

[omega minimo]

25. Perhaps the promise of the Constitution was an "ordered anarch"

although you cannot build non-violence on a plantation civilization, either.


Thank you H2O for vibrant quotes. There are hints here too of why -- and how -- our individual actions and purchasing power matter.

[H2O Man]

32. Often when I

feel upset by the world, I sit and quietly review my collection of books and quotes from Gandhi. I have most of the "popular" books by and about him, and a few of the less popular ones. I also have a notebook and a hardcover book of Gandhi quotes that I have collected over the past three decades. I will share a few more of my favorites:

1- Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause.

2- Silence is the true language of cosmic adoration.

3- When it is relevant, truth has to be uttered, however unpleasant it may be.

[omega minimo]

28. Consider that those 3 examples are affected through legislation,

not defined in the Constitution or founding structure of government.

All 3 can be changed.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quixote1818]

30. Your post is a perfect look in the mirror for the OP's statement.

You hit the nail on the head. Actually I like some of the lighter posts from time to time. Why are there always a few people who feel they have to tell everyone how they should post? DU already has rules posted on what is and is not acceptable. Not to mention, it NEVER changes anything and usually backfires.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. I'm Not The One Who Offered The Hypocritical Premise.

I'm not the one who posted a thread requesting people to post less of "opinionated, info-free, rhetorical questions", while being guilty of that premise a countless number of times. I'm also not the one who posted the self-righteousness.

I'm also not sure you're the best person to be speaking against attack, with all due respect.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. Edited. No Reply Necessary.

[omega minimo]

34. Democracy and Impeachment have been under discussion lately

The "opinionated, info-free" threads could use a little help with facts and terms. People who mean well are being confused (intentionally?) by red herrings and phony hair-splitting that isn't even relevant-- but keeps people spinning their wheels, thinking they know what they're talking (passionately) about, when they may be misinformed..........

Yeah the fluff has its place and DU defends its right to be fluffy and is very touchy about "Don't tell me what to do" as in your post. Your post is "perfect look in the mirror" showing you didn't read the thread. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2843904&mesg_id=2844529

Some DUers have been providing info-rich threads for anyone who is interested in understanding the process of democracy and impeachment better. Hard for that to "backfire" unless people prefer opinions to facts.

[H2O Man]

35. "Intolerance betrays

a want of faith in one's cause." -- Gandhi

Might not hurt for this to be posted twice for those who become anxious reading your thread.

[omega minimo]

36. Gandhi sure had that PR thing down, didn't he?

Knew how to present ideas to smooth the "challenging" and "anxious" edges...


That quote jumped out at me from above-- it speaks to the heart of ________, whatever the cause may be. (Tolerance, confidence, faith, calm.......)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. It's the best government that money can buy. AKA - an Oligarchy.