I heard a story about a man who was killed in prison

[Horse with no Name]

I consider myself as liberal as they come, but for some reason, I found a great satisfaction at this man's demise.
I had a necessity to call Child Protective Services this weekend regarding a patient. Basically was just doing my job.
Procedure is that I have to call the hospital Social Worker first, so I did.
We had a conversation and she related a story that made my blood boil.
Before her current position, she spent 20 years as a CPS caseworker.
She told me of her worst case.
A 60-year old man and woman had custody of their 2-year old granddaughter.
He was addicted to drugs, so, he sold drug dealers "turns" at his granddaughter.
The caseworker relayed the story that several would molest this child at a time.
It took months to catch them and they held their breath through the trial, because she said if ONE thing wasn't followed to the tee...this man could regain custody of this poor child.
Apparently the man took care of this himself.
He told the judge that he shouldn't be on trial, because this 2-year old girl WANTED the sex as much as he did.:mad:
She said that when this man got shanked in prison after becoming an object of many affections...that she got a sense of satisfaction from it.
And, I had to admit, I did too.
:(

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. That poor baby! How will she ever be able to have a normal well-adjusted life

after that?

[Horse with no Name]

2. She won't

The social worker said it was heartbreaking because they knew it was happening but they couldn't catch them.
They heard about it on the streets.
They had an anonymous caller one day (she thought it might be the grandmother)that said to "GO NOW" and gave them the address where the "party was occuring.
That was the only way they were able to catch him.

[Iris]

111. how could a baby even survive this?

I mean, what are the chances of a child surviving these sorts of repeated attacks given the possiblity of injury and disease?

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You know I am a progressive but I had a similar reaction

at court two weeks ago

I went for Jury Duty... and while we were wating the sherifs marched by with one of the Arellano brothers in chains

Having seen the effects of what they have done in the streets, I took a strange pleasure to see that guy in between two guuards, in prison daylight orange and both hand and feet restraints.

Oh and I KNOW he is going away for a LOOOOONGGGG TIME

[CoffeeCat]

4. As a victim of someone exactly like this...

...I find your anger really healing.

Your story also illustrates the absurdity of these predators. Most of them really do believe
that the child initiates and wanted the abuse. They are very efficient at drilling this into
their victims' heads--which usually renders the victims silent, confused and traumatized beyond
recognition.

I just wanted to say that it was helpful to see your outrage. Thanks.

[Horse with no Name]

7. Words fail me

I can't imagine. I simply cannot. I am sorry for your ordeal.
:cry::hug:

[bloom]

14. That's what I was thinking.

I can't think of the words that express how outrageous and horrible are the actions of such people as those you described in the OP.

:cry:

[CoffeeCat]

39. Thank you...

You're very sweet.

:)

[Canuckistanian]

24. Really? You were a victim similar to this?

I literally can't imagine what you must have gone through. Although I have seen people damaged in this way (including my own sister), I can't fathom the strength you must need to face each day.

You're an example of triumph over adversity.

I wish you the best of life.

[CoffeeCat]

44. Thanks for those nice...

words. Yes, I'm a victim of triumph over adversity--and so is everyone. We're
all courageous and triumphant--and suffering is universal.

I went through 3 years of intensive therapy--and I gained a ton of
insight and I learned a great deal about myself and life. I have
a very full life, an amazing husband and 2 of the most delightful
children you'd ever want to meet. They're being raised with joy
and they are loved dearly.

I consider myself blessed and lucky.

Thanks for your kind words and wishes. :)

[JeffR]

69. That is incredibly touching

and beautifully stated.

[Az]

5. There is a difference between the state and people

We feel emotions. We feel rage and anger and love and compassion. Unfortunately these things can tend to make administering justice difficult at times. This is why we say Justice Is Blind.

Vengence serves our personal desires. It does not serve a societies needs.

[bloom]

22. A lot of times - so-called justice isn't all that just.

That's the problem.

[Selatius]

6. It's natural to feel like that because we are all humans

We are frail, weak, imperfect creatures, but we have the Gift of Reason to show us the way.

Our principles, born of Reason, dictate that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than our impulses may want of us. The only question is to what will you listen? Your principles? Or your impulses?

I'll readily admit that it does feel good sometimes, but I'm not going to give into my darker half. Sometimes you have no more control over your emotions or your feelings than you do over the weather. What counts is how you react to them. The rest is inconsequential.

[uppityperson]

Me too. Poor little kid.

I do not believe in the death penalty, but do believe in consequences. Poor little girl.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. That's a bullshit story

Why would drug dealers want to molest a 2 year-old? This guy just happened across people that both satisfied his business needs and managed to have an extremely rare mental disease? Come on. Gimme a break. Suspension of disbelief for such fictions only goes so far. I'll be needing a newspaper article and police report to believe this high flown fable.

Utter fucking nonsense.

That said, taking satisfaction from this sort of thing, supposing it did happen (which it certainly did not), is nearly as perverted as the putative original act. The salivating that goes on on these boards over prison rape and other forms of torture is sickening, and nothing more than a symptom of how pathological our Revenge Culture has become. It's out-and-out sadism, now even tied to bullshit fantasy stories like this one. The Punishment Mafia here should just go ahead and get involved in the BDSM community - at least there, their sadistic fantasies can be fulfilled in safe and consensual ways.

If you approve of rape - ANY rape - you're little better than a rapist yourself. We don't get to pick and choose moral imperatives. That's why they're...uh...imperative. Categorical.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Perhaps I should introduce you to soem of the animals

I had the pleasure to transport (NOT) over the course of ten years of EMS

most of my patients were good people, but some of them were truly sickening...

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. I have no doubt that their are sickening fucks in this world

Unfortunately, that does not constitute evidence that this story is accurate.

Sounds like revenge fantasy and urban legend. So and so said. Yeah, right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. If I never met any of those folks

I would have the same kind of skepticism as you do.

I perosnally transported to the hospital a man who was convicted of raping a three year old... lets just say it was the prison animals who shall we say used some of their lovely sense of justice.

Oh and article, he was sent to jail in 1987 and I transported him in 91

I'd sincerely doubt he will survive the 20+ he was given either.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Why do you assume that I never met people like this?

It's really fucking arrogant of you, you know? You think everybody on this board is naive, and you're the expert. You don't know shit about me. My skepticism derives from the fact that I have encountered numerous scumbags in my travels, not becaiuse poor little naive me needs to be schooled in the ways of the real world by the likes of you. Hop off that high horse there, Charlie. You ain't the only one with experiences.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Fine if you think its bullshit it is bullshit

if we showed you studies from experts it would not convince you either

Bullshit, fine. Have it your way.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. What "studies from experts" - WTF are you even talking about???

I want to know whether THIS SPECIFIC EVENT actually happened. How would a 1000 studies from experts demonstrate that?

What kinds of studies do you mean? Studies that demonstrate child sex abuse? I never denied the existence of child sex abuse, so I'm not sure why those would be necessary. The only evidence that would demonstrate the facts of the case here are - oh, I dunno - a newspaper article, a court record, something, anything, other than an uncorroborated report by some unnamed party? Am I asking for too much?

Jesus. You act like I'm denying child rape as a phenomenon. I'm not, so stop misrepresenting my position. I'm denying the veracity of this specific case. It should be relatively easy to confirm it, if it's real.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Start with the FBI and the national database of

exploited children'

Wait it's bullshit

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. OMG...what are you talking about now

I'm more than happy to have this case verified if it is indeed true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. You said that it was bullshit

so it is bullshit

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. That's fatuous

I said it was bullshit because there is no evidence. Feel free to provide or encourage the OP to provide at your leisure. I am currently searching major news databases for any hint of this story. I think you can guess what my results are...

[Horse with no Name]

47. Hey

I pm'd you the county and the city and the time frame.
I don't NEED to be "encouraged". I did it, but I wasn't going to draw a bullseye on where I work and live in public.
If you CHOOSE not to use the information that I have given you...I guess then we can guess what EXACTLY your motives are...

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. As I say in the very post you're responding to, I'm currently trying to verify

I'll let you know my methods and results shortly. So far, though, nada.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Would you like some crow

here you go

* CHILD-ABUSE CONVICTION

Published on December 5, 1990. Article 1 of 1 found.
SOURCE: ASSOCIATED PRESS
A Park County District Court jury yesterday convicted Michael G. Warner II of Canon City of child abuse resulting in the death of his former girlfriend's toddler. Warner, 20, faces up to 48 years in prison. Warner and Deborah Staton were arrested in the death of Staton's son, Eric, 2, who died Dec. 9, 1989. An autopsy showed the child died of a blow on the head. Staton, 23, pleaded guilty to a child-abuse charge and was sentenced to six years in the community corrections... 132 words, Rocky Mountain News (CO)

Click for complete article

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=RM&p_theme=rm&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB4D75D7151501E&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


Mind you Eric WAS two years old

[piedmont]

56. Are you just completely ignoring A_M's posts, or what?

The case you found does NOT match the description of events posted by Horse With No Name. THAT is the case Alcibiades_Mystery wanted a link to.
Geez!!

[MonkeyFunk]

58. I don't understand

that doesn't sound at all like the story in the OP.

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. That's because it's not the original story

bryzenski has somehow gotten it into his./her head that I'm denying that any 2-year old was EVER raped. Needless to say, that is not what I'm saying, though I guess it is easier to dispute me if you invent that as my supposed argument. What I AM saying is that the event described by the OP did not happen. But bryzenski refuses to follow this simple point, whether through misunderstanding or malice I'm not sure.

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. Let me go over this VERY SLOWLY, since you have comprehension problems

I do not doubt that people rape two-year olds. I believe that happens.

I do doubt that the event described by the OP happened. I will gladly eat crow when you prove to me it did happen. As per the PM I received from the OP< that is not the case he is referring to (it is not in the right place or time). Try again next time, please.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I don't have access to the information you were sent

that said you said that this did not happen, that this was an urban legend, this case proves you were and ARE still full of it

[MonkeyFunk]

65. I'm sorry

but I have to agree with Alcibiades.

He's simply asking for confirmation of the story presented in the original post. Stories about OTHER children who are abused are simply irrelevant to this debate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I am sorry you missed it

he said these cases were an urban legend

THEY HAPPEN.

And you can agree with whoever...

[MonkeyFunk]

67. No

YOU missed it.

Nobody said all these stories are urban legends.

It was claimed that this particular case had all the hallmarks of an urban legend.

Pointing to other stories about child abuse is irrelevant.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. No, I said THIS case was an urban legend, not THESE cases

And nothing has shown me otherwise. At least we've gotten to the bottom of your misunderstanding, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. No we haven't

you will do all you can to try to destroy people's cred, taht is your goal

By the way, the fact that you have not found anything does not mean it did not happen

I happen to know that many a case NEVER makes it to the paper... and in fact most child abuse cases don't

But I am sure you knew that

[alcibiades_mystery]

80. Since I say that explicitly in my discussion, I obviously know that

As for "destroying people's credibility," I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I am asking a simple question: can anyone prove that the facts stated AS FACTS in the OP actually ARE FACTS? That makes me a villian in your eyes, fine. I'll side with the search for truth anytime.

As for child abuse cases going unreported, yes, of course. But would this case, which was reported to the authorities, and adjudicated in public court, have gone unreported in newspapers? With a fact set like that described in the OP? That's doubtful.

As I have said, I'd be happy to retract if even a hint of actual evidence supported the OP's story. I made an effort to locate such evidence, as did you. We neither of us found any. I'll wait for the evidence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Yes it would not be reported in papers

shockign I know.

Why don't you try County Records?

If they are online, you may be able to find it.

[MonkeyFunk]

84. Why would it not be reported in papers?

I see news reports of arrests for child-molestation all the time. Surely a case as lurid as this would be covered.

If not, why not?

[Warren Stupidity]

92. Good question.

No answer.

It seems that there is a vast conspiracy to cover up insanely lurid crimes. Who Knew?

[MonkeyFunk]

99. well

you know how the mainstream media shy away from anything lurid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. There are many of these cases taht don't make it

to the paper... the reasons are many, but they are

So if you cannot believe that, or believe that everything makes it to the paper. you are living in fantasy land

Some ressons, espeecially in small towns

1.- Perosn is white (Yep that has not stopped, even today if you are a minority and commit a crime you WILL lead the news)

2.- Person is well connected

3.- The editor decides the story is not worth covering

I could go on

If you believe all lurid stories make it to papers, you are living in fantasy

[piedmont]

34. What studies from what experts?

He just wanted verification of this particular story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Agreed It's Bullshit, And Agreed On Your Other Points As Well.

[Horse with no Name]

11. I have no reason to doubt this social worker

None.
You don't believe it?
Sorry.
I do.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. I do - The story is completely implausible

Show me a newspaper article. Better yet, tell me the town that it happened in, and I'll use my vast research capabilities to find the newspaper article myself. But it's a fool's errand, because this never happened.

[Horse with no Name]

17. Check you pm. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. This has happened

perhaps in your town.

The problem is that most people have a huge problem wraping their heads around this form of abuse.

I've seen some things that would make your head stand up

And you know what? Many of these stories make it to the papers, but the large majority do not.

;-)

That said any child abuser is considered the lowest form of life in any prison yard around the world.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. Oh well that settles it then.

Not only has it happened, but probably in my town. And the evidence is?

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. I have no doubt that such things happen

But they are implausible nonetheless. Moreover, I have zero trouble wrapping my head around it. You're quite fond of invoking your vast personal experience as warrants for your claims here. Don't assume others are inexperienced or naive on the other side. I've seen my share of shit, trust me on that one. And that's precisely why I know a bullshit story when I see one.

That said, this would make the paper. There would be a record, somewhere, for verification. I doubt we'll find any.

As for the sociology of prison systems, you've stated the well-known and the obvious. When you have some information that I didn't have when I woke up this morning, I'll be happy to hear it.

;-)

[CoffeeCat]

37. Yes, my story will never make the newspapers...

I've met hundreds of childhood sex abuse survivors--and the majority of
these victims remain silent their entire lives.

I've never met a victim who had his/her story in the media. I've heard
some horrendous stories and I've seen the untold damage from these
perpetrators, and it is real.

Most of these crimes are never reported. 90 percent of children who
are sexually abused never tell. They are terrorized into silence.
The perpetrators are skilled at convincing their child victims that
they are the ones at fault, and that they will not be believed. My perpetrators
told me that I would be killed and that my younger sister would be killed.

I told local police and 2 Federal agencies about what happened to me--years
of sexual abuse by a police officer and my father. A Federal Agent visited
me in my home and interviewed me several times. He cried with me, he said
he knew I was telling the truth--because I was like so many victims he had
met and my story matched the exact modus operandi of sexual perpetrators.
In the end, I was told that there would be no case, because these crimes
happened more than 30 years ago. There was no proof--and it would be my
word against "a decorated police officer" and my father was was "a prominent
community member". I was told that they needed "a fresh case"--which means
another molestation has to happen--before anything is done. I wasn't expecting
indictments. I understand the judicial ramifications here. I just wanted
to protect other children from these very violent, sadistic sexual predators.
I failed though.

Most children never tell--and even if a survivor musters the courage to report
these crimes--nothing materializes because there is no proof.

These child sex crimes really are the underbelly of society--that most do not want to acknowledge.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. But this crime was reported...according to the story

the perpetrator was caught, tried, and sentenced.

So, it should be easy enough to get evidence. I have no doubt that most cases of child sex abuse go unreported. But that's not the case here, right? According to the OP, it's not the case.

[Warren Stupidity]

90. with the urban legend the facts are not important.

It seems that this particular case would be a matter of public record. There may be some region of the country where such a sordid tale would go unreported, but it sure as heck isn't anywhere I've ever lived.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I know

and it takes a lot of guts to speak of it even now.

You are correct, it is the underbelly, not only of American Society, but many societies.

And it is the crime nobody wants to talk about

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Not To Overly Challenge, But If It Were True I'd Bet My Bottom Dollar There Should Be An Article

online somewhere about it. A story like that doesn't go unwritten. In the absence of a link of some sort for verification, I will continue to have an extremely hard time buying this as truth. But if some verification is provided, than I would absolutely share with you in your reaction.

[piedmont]

20. A story like that would make regional or national news, I would think

depending on what else happened that day.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. It would be reported at the arrest stage, at the trial stage, at the sentencing

and at the death of said douchebag...precisely because it is so "satisfying."

The notion that this would make no news at all is laughable. So, I'll wait for the verification.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. Exactly.

[piedmont]

85. yep.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. It is a classic urban legend format friend of a friend tale.

Sorry you got duped and manipulated.

[seriousstan]

82. You also believed margarine was one molecule away from plastic.

This was also "knowledge" from your workplace.

[Wonk]

86. Did you know, the word "gullible" isn't in any dictionary?

Some stranger I called on the phone for an unrelated matter told me that once, so it must be true :D

(ibtl)

[CoffeeCat]

26. "an extremely rare mental disease" ?

Obviously, I cannot verify that this story is true. However, I can
say that child sexual abuse is not "an extremely rare mental disease".

One in four girls and one in seven boys is sexually abused before the age
of 18. That statistic has been validated in hundreds of studies.

Sexual abuse happens to so many children. It's an epidemic in this
country--unfortunately, not a rarity.

I've met hundreds of sexual-abuse survivors--and most of them were
from typical, middle- and upper-middle class families. Most were molested
by fathers/stepfathers/grandfathers/uncles who were doctors, accountants,
insurance agents, construction workers, pastors, etc.

This stuff is pervasive.

I talked with the FBI, the Postal Inspector's Office and local police
about my situation--which included years of molestation and forced
participation in child pornography. My story was not shocking to them.
They hear this stuff every day. My therapist treats perpetrators, and
he was continually shocked by the seemingly "normal" facade these people
present to the world---while they commit these crimes.

Child sexual abuse is rampant.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. I believe it is rampant

Go recheck those studies and find out how many were abused before age three.

Seriously. Child sex abuse, defined as any abuse of prepubescent children, is relatively common. Before age three? Not so much.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. Nobody should believe factual claims I make if I can't provide evidence

You're right about that.

And if I make a factual claim, and somebody asks me for evidence, and I am unable to provide it, then that person would be perfectly correct in his or her skepticism. "My uncle told me..." is not verifiable evidence. It just ain't.

So, yes. You shouldn't believe me. You should believe support for claims when you see them.

[Horse with no Name]

43. Honestly? I don't care what you do or don't believe.

It's totally your option.
Just like I can decide who to believe or not.

On edit:
Sorry I thought you were one of the ones calling me a liar. My apologies.:blush:
I pm'd the guy what he says he needs to "prove it". No words on it yet.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. No, actually, you are making a claim of fact, and I'm disputing it

It has nothing to do with opinions. Is it a fact that this really happened? You say yes. I ask for evidence. You say, well, it's all about an opinion. That's not evidence. That's puffery and evasion.

[Horse with no Name]

48. LOL

You are so full of yourself. I gave you what you wanted yet you continue to blow yourself up like a frog here. One has to wonder what YOUR motives are...I am starting to figure that part out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. Oh are you? I'll make it easy for you

Here's my motive: truth.

What's your motive?

[Horse with no Name]

52. Sorry. I don't believe you.

I've seen you attack various DU'ers since you have been here.
I know of one that you attacked mercilessly. She rarely posts here anymore because of you. You aren't about truth. Not at all.
There is no love lost here--for sure.
I simply shared a story that was shared to me.
My source was reputable. Had no reason to lie or make up a story.
As far as your sources? Meh. I don't know you.
Just like you don't know me. I could care less if you believe this or not. My source is much more reputable than you would ever dream of being.
You could do as I do when I see a story that I don't believe. Just move on. Instead, you choose to remain in this thread bullying those that disagree with your assessment and coddling the ones that do. You are making this "all about you". Pretty sad, really.
You wouldn't come back to this thread and eat crow if your life depended on it, so I am guessing you won't "find" anything.
When this happened...as I told you, it was in the 90's. It may or may not be in the online county database. But please let me know when you make your trip down here to look at the public records. I will buy you coffee to go with that crow. It isn't that large of a county.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I have some crow for our friend

don't know if it is your case, but it IS a case of a two year old who was abused and killed

[MonkeyFunk]

60. and the case

you mentioned didn't mention sexual abuse, drug dealing, or any of the other particulars in the original story.

Nobody's saying children aren't abused. People are rightly asking if there's a source for the claims made in the OP, because it sounds like a typical urban legend.

[alcibiades_mystery]

63. Why are you finding this so difficult to understand: I believe 2 year old are raped

Are we settled on that? Good. Now try to find a relevant story so I can start my crow feast, please.

[Horse with no Name]

70. But But But

Don't you know???
He is the all-knowing, all-seeing, yada yada yada.:eyes:
He isn't worth it. I'm not wasting my time on him any further--nor should you. I've watched this one for awhile now.
Anyway, when I speak to the Social Worker again, I will get the Judge's name and other relevant details. Oh wait, she only worked at CPS for 20 years. She probably didn't see ANYTHING and left her job because she was bored. Nobody in Texas abuses their children--dontcha know CPS workers don't have any heartbreaking stories to tell.:eyes:
The case you showed isn't the case--but it is heartbreaking.:(
Thanks for the support!:hug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Oh you welcome

I found the blotter from Arlingont PD on the web for the 1990s... funny did not use the Lexis \ Nexis database either

More cases of indecency, iwth kids under 10, and one where the age is not truly told

[MonkeyFunk]

76. ah

I got that response the other day when I asked someone to back up a simple claim which turned out to be entirely untrue. I was attacked for "knowing everything" and not accepting "common knowledge".

I guess it's the standard response of someone who can't provide any evidence for their claims.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

83. Well

you do have SOME investigative skills. Now how about a link to the story in the OP?

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. That is just plain

nasty and dishonest.

Please do get the details. I will be happy to publically retract my position. Hell, call your terms.

Do not suggest that I don't believe in child abuse. I do believe it happens, and happens often, which is why bullshit stories about it are so fucking disgusting to me. There's plenty of truth out there. I also have the deepest respect for what social workers do and see. It's a despicable charge you're making against me, and you really have no reason to make it, other than your inability to support your point. I have, until this post, said nothing negative about you personally in this thread, and if I have, I apologize. But you have attacked and attacked me personally, without reason and without warrant, attributing outrageous positions to me without evidence and making sick and dishonest suggestions about my motivations. You need to check yourself. It's disgusting behavior.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. I would gladly come back and eat crow, if any verification was provided

See Post #53 for my results.

Why don't you look at the public records? You're the one making the claim? Oh yeah, because you don't care about whether anyone believes you, so now it's on me to prove a negative. As for the rest of your polemics, the only one making this all about ME is YOU. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. You are attacking me personally. I don't see the issue.

By the way, I've never heard of you before this thread, so I'm not sure what to make of your deep knowledge of me. Tell your friend to toughen up. It's the fucking Internet, fer chrissakes.

[Horse with no Name]

64. I don't have access to the VAST knowledge you possess

But for starters--it wouldn't be molestation.
It would be indecency with a child.

[uppityperson]

68. we don't have access to your knowledge of this case

please provide details of proof or delete as urban legend. THIS case proof please.

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. Well, we're talking about newspaper articles

and as I said, I used the terms in various combinations. So, for some searches, I just put in grandfather and prison. Skimmed about a hundred articles for that one. Nada. Take my qualifiers in the discussion for what they are. The search is not definitive, but it suggests that this never happened. Poor bryzenski's been searching google like mad for the last half-hour and has turned up squat as well (he/she did manage to prove that 2 year olds are, in fact, sometimes raped, but we all knew that, so it was less than helpful in determining the facts of this case...)

[uppityperson]

74. well, you know what to do.

Another idea, did you check snopes also?

Edited to add, I checked snopes and found nothing there. Found these 2 though:
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/kogut.htm prisoner kills self with deck of cards (true)
http://www.snopes.com/crime/justice/grambo.htm A gun-toting Australian granny blew the testicles off the two men who raped her granddaughter (false)

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

96. Are you accusing me of something?

If the definition of troll is one who breaks the rules, then a mirror is in order for you.

[Midlodemocrat]

89. ...

:applause:

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. So

You applaud someone hurling personal insults against somebody asking for evidence.

Well done. :eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

104. I applaud her because your posts

are almost always angry and mean-spirited and you need to chill out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. Uh, OK

I haven't attacked anyone in this thread, yet I'm the angry mean-spritied one. This is truly the world turned upside down. Someone posts a dubious story, I ask for evidence, and I'm the Big Dick, while the person completely unable to support his or her post is a beleagured hero. What a fucking pile.

Whatever. Have fun with the WMDs and other false stories. You are supporting a culture of falsehood. Congratulations.

[Midlodemocrat]

107. You didn't ask.

You bullied. You said her OP was 'utter fucking nonsense' and that if she supported someone getting raped in jail she was 'no better than a rapist' herself.

There are ways to ask someone to prove something without being so heavy handed and unpleasant. It is, after all to quote you, the internet. If you want to come across as the 'Big Dick' you called yourself, congratulations. You succeeded.

And, FWIW, hearing an anecdotal story from an anonymous poster on the internet is hardly the same as believing the WMD travesty. :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. No, it is the same thing

It is believing factual claims without the shred of evidence merely because you like the person making them, and viciously attacking anyone who questions such claims. It is exactly the same fucking thing. And just as the WMD BULLSHIT was utter fucking nonsense lacking evidence, so is this. So yes, you participate in the same lax culture of belief that allowed and warranted the war. You damn skippy. It's the same fucking thing, but you just don't want to admit it because it is you this time, with the credulousness and the attack dog tactics. You. Welcome to it.

[Midlodemocrat]

109. LOL. You're funny.

Equating an anecdotal story on the internet with the lies from Bushco and the subsequent deaths in Iraq is too much. You should get out more; posting here obviously means more to you than it does to others. :rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

110. People who believe factual claims without evidence are destructive

Wherever they turn up. I would have thought the lessons of the last few years would teach that. I guess not.

The OP very clearly indicates that this story is fact. It either is, or it isn't, but few people have even asked for a shred of support, despite their vociferous attacks on me. You're another one of the pile. But yes. It's the same inclination and the same attitude towards argument. Obviously at different scales, but that's not the point.

[Midlodemocrat]

113. Read what I posted in #112.

Maybe that will shut you up. I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. It would shut me up if it were evidence that this event took place

It is not, so it won't.

Why you are so desperate to believe an unsubstantiated report is a mystery to me, but it does have the air of desperation, with excuse piled supra excuse in order to justify the complete lack of any evidence at all (they were moved to Syria, you see...that's why we can't find them...:eyes:.

[Midlodemocrat]

118. I didn't say I believed it. I also didn't say I didn't.

What I said is that this particular event might not be a matter of public record, which isn't that hard for me to believe.

In my experience, social workers are privy to a great deal of information that the average person isn't. Maybe the social worker got the time frame wrong when relating the story, or the spelling of the last name.

Bottom line, dude. You're all in a tizzy over a big nothing. It just isn't that important.

[alcibiades_mystery]

122. I'm not in a tizzy

I'm responding to the posts. In the meantime, I'm cooking dinner, playing with the kid, handling some emails, and chatting with the wife.

Multitasking is fun. Cheers.

PS: It's so adorable that you thought the OP provided an actual NAME. I can't get over it. :rofl:

[Midlodemocrat]

125. Well, since I can't read your PMs, I really wouldn't have any idea

what she sent or didn't.

Why don't you *ask* her for the name via PM? That way your morbid curiousity will be satisfied and you can go eat your dinner.

[alcibiades_mystery]

127. Don't you understand yet?

There is no name. The OP doesn't have a name. Get it?

The only information the OP has is 1) county, 2) town, 3) timeframe (the nineties). That's it.

[Midlodemocrat]

128. Well, maybe YOU can put a name to this mystery and we can

all sleep tonight. :eyes: Seriously, consider prospect research. Hell, go out on your own. I guarantee you'd make more than the $100,000 LN licensing fee.

[alcibiades_mystery]

130. Well that's the point, isn't it

The name doesn't exist. We know why.

But that doesn't mean we can't close off every avenue of escape. Let's see the excuses people throw up when nobody died in Texas prisons matching this fact pattern (he was moved to Arkansas, they'll say, a common practice...)...

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

124. People who don't believe in the Holocaust are idiots

The evidence is abundant and clear, unlike the evidence in this case.

As for your "perpetrator or victim" bit, you are so far out of line that I can't even beginm to explain it. On the basis of this thread, you are essentially accusing me of child molestation. Do the disgusting, outrageous charges have no bounds on these boards?

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. RESEARCH RESULTS

Question: Did the following event happen:

A 60-year old man and woman had custody of their 2-year old granddaughter.
He was addicted to drugs, so, he sold drug dealers "turns" at his granddaughter. The caseworker relayed the story that several would molest this child at a time. It took months to catch them and they held their breath through the trial, because she said if ONE thing wasn't followed to the tee...this man could regain custody of this poor child. Apparently the man took care of this himself.
He told the judge that he shouldn't be on trial, because this 2-year old girl WANTED the sex as much as he did. She said that when this man got shanked in prison after becoming an object of many affections...that she got a sense of satisfaction from it.

METHOD: I searched the following databases, using information provided my in a PM by the OP (location and timeframe):

Lexis/Nexis Academic Universe (Nationwide newspapers)
Newsbank - Americas Newspapers. Without revealing too much information from the OP, this databse allowed me to search 17 local newspapers from the OP's state, though only 14 were available for the relevant time period.
ProQuest Direct (Newspapers)

I used the following search terms, together and in various combinations, searching the full-text: grandfather, granddaughter, drug dealers, prison, (OP's home town), (OP's home county), custody, rape, molested, molest.

RESULTS: Zero news articles turn up in any searches using these terms.

DISCUSSION: The results suggest that my hypothesis was correct: this never happened. Of course, it may have happened and not made the news, or my databases may not have included the newspapers in which the story did appear (they do not include the local newspaper of the town indicated by the OP, for instance). At this point, however, there is no independent verification for this story.

I will donate $20 to DU if anybody can prove me wrong. All you have to do is produce the evidence that anything like this happened as the OP describes in the place and time he described. PM me for details.

Cheers!

[Warren Stupidity]

91. Nice work. nt.

[bloom]

93. That proves nothing.

There are cases all the time that don't make the newspaper. Tried in court or pled guilty or whatever.

And court cases aren't all available - when they are not appealed.



People do not know the sum of what is going on by the newspaper and by what court cases are published.

If you think you do - you are living in a fantasy.


Unfortunately for them - people like social workers do know a lot more about heinous things that people do.

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. I stated all that in the discussion

All your points are obvious, and they were already handled.

The fact remains that not one shred of proof for this story has been provided by anyone, least of all by those purporting to believe it. That IS a fact, and a disturbing one.

[bloom]

98. So it isn't proven that it is true and it isn't proven that it isn't.

What it comes down to is you being an ass - because for no reason you are saying that the OP is a lie - when you have no way to know that.


I happen to know that a lot of these cases never make the newspaper - yet your whole diatribe is based on your belief that if it was true then it would have been in the paper.

So again - you proved nothing except that you like to call people liars if you don't like what they are saying.

[alcibiades_mystery]

100. You misunderstand something very fundamental about evidence

The OP made a factual claim, and has thus far provided zero support for that claim. I made a good faith effort to provide evidence, but I found none. In fact, nobody has found any evidence at all that this actually happened.

It has nothing to do with calling anyone a liar. Hell, I take the OP to be a victim of the other party's exaggerations. Nor does this have anything to do with what I think about the story. That's neither here nor there. The only thing I noticed about it was its utter implausibility, and that has been borne out by the continued lack of evidence, despite the numerous searches.

At the end of the day, the burden is not on me to disprove a factual claim offered without support. The burden is on the one making the claim. That's the only way principled argument can proceed. Moreover, if there is no evidence for a factual claim, then anyone who cares about principled argument is utterly justified in not only doubting it, but also publicly requesting supporting evidence. If you make a factual claim in public, be prepared to support it.

The more disturbing thing, as far as I'm concerned, is the ferocity with which so many have accepted the factual status of this thoroughly unsupported claim (although it explains a lot about why people believed in WMD, and Saddam-osama connections, and why so many innocent people are convicted of crimes). People - yourself included - have no reason to believe this claim: no evidence of any value has been provided to support it. And yet you believe it. That's terrifying for a democratic society. utterly, utterly terrifying. It also tells us all we need to know about how we ended up in Iraq. Far too many people assent to factual claims without evidence.

It is not the responsibility of the person who asks - rightly - "Excuse me, do you have any evidence for that?" to disprove the factual claim. It is the burden of the person making the claim to provide evidence. Again, I'll donate $20 to DU if any of this is proved, ever. Two years down the road, someone digs up the records, I will gladly post a gigantic CROW EATING EXTRAVAGANZA thread full with mea culpa. But it ain't gonna happen, because the story didn't happen.

[elehhhhna]

101. Okay, fine. Let's see if you buy his one:

Loner in milwaukee picks up young guys, tries to turn them into sex-zombies, fails, kills & eats them.

Caught, convicted, sent to prison. Get his head bashed in by two other inmates.

My wild-ass imagination or the Jeffrey Dahmer story? You decide. You're the decider.

[alcibiades_mystery]

102. Let me explain this slowly

I am perfectly willing to believe any factual claim for which sufficient evidence is provided. On an initial reading, I would be perfectly reasonable to doubt the facts you just stated. In fact, it would be my duty to demand evidence for a factual claim, as a responsible member of a free society and a community. My duty, do you understand? Then, when you were qustioned about the facts, you would provide the evidence - all the stories about Dahmer, etc. then I would believe you, because the factual claim would have been supported with evidence.

I don't understand why this basic notion is so aggravating to people. You say Jerry fell off a chair. I say "Did he?' You say "yes, so-and-so also saw it, and here are his bruises, and here's his testimony to that effect, etc." That's the way public discourse works. Apparently, the way public discourse works here is like this:

"Jerry fell off a chair."
"Did he?"
"You fucking bastard! We know all about you and your disruption! Go find your own evidence! Why are you calling me a liar! You're a troll! I suppose you don't believe anyone ever fell off a chair? Is that the kind of person you are? The kind of person who doesn't believe that people fall off chairs? Why do you hate people that fall off chairs??? I know what you're up to here! You've pulled this kind of bullshit before, and everyone is wiwse to it! Here's a news story about Jimmy falling off a chair! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you troll! You must even hate EMS people who tend to people who fall off chairs, since you don't believe that anyone has ever in all of human history has fallen off a chair! What kind of idiot doesn't believe that? Only a troll fucking idiot like you, you bastard!"

I mean, this is truly a ridiculous reaction.

By the way, I just put a few of the words from your description into Google and the first hit was Jeffrey Dahmer. Plenty of people have been doing a much more rigorous search for information on the OP's case, and none has found a word about it yet. That's the difference between your example and what we're actually talking about here.

[Pithlet]

103. I agree.

I don't think the OP's story sounds likely, either. Prepared for flames, and for some DUers to hate me now as well, but I think the pile-on you're getting is ridiculous.

[bloom]

131. The General Discussion forum is not a court of law.

So you ought to just get over yourself.


Maybe you could get Skinner to start a section where people put on evidence and we pretend we're a jury. But that isn't what this is. And I think it's bad form to call people liars for no good reason.

[alcibiades_mystery]

132. It's not a court of law, but it is a public forum

And I didn't call anyone a liar. I said the story was false. Those are two different things.

Yes, I said it was a bullshit story. That doesn't mean that I think Horse is a liar. A liar intentionally reproduces a false story as if it is true for the purpose of deception. To be a liar, Horse would have to 1) believe that the story is false 2) represent it as if it were true. I think Horse believes it is true. If Horse believes it is true, then Horse is not a liar.

My mother thought Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. She told me about it again and again. Now, if I say (as I did), "Mom, there are no WMDs in Iraq," or "Mom, show me a shred of evidence for that claim," does that mean I'm calling my mother a liar? Of course not. It means that I think she has been misled. Certainly, someone exaggerated or misled along the way, but it wasn't my Mom. And if I say, "Mom, that's a bullshit story, and utter fucking nonsense," it doesn't mean I love my Mom any less (but that I love truth more...haha...sayeth Brutus).

Please show me one instance in this thread where I accuse Horse of lying. Just one. The fact is, I do not accuse Horse of lying at all. I say the story is bullshit, but that's a different matter. Plenty of good-intentioned people reproduce bullshit stories, primarily because they believe them to be true. I take Horse to be one of these good-intentioned people, reproducing a false story that he/she believes to be true. My issue is whether the story is true, not whether Horse is being deceptive. But, for the record, I'll state it emphatically here: the OP believes this story to be true. Therefore, the OP is NOT a liar. Happy?

[Midlodemocrat]

112. As a former child psychologist, you are 100% correct, bloom.

A great deal of this type of criminal behavior is handled through family court, which is, or at least was when I was in practice, closed. No reporters, essentially a news blackout to protect the victim. In some cases, I testified to a totally empty court with the exception of the judge and the attorneys. Never saw the defendant, nor the victim.

Frankly, social workers have access to information that none of us will ever have and I, for one, like it that way. People have the right to privacy when something implodes within their family.

Thanks for being a voice of reason, although I don't think it will do much good.

[alcibiades_mystery]

115. This suggests another avenue of research, then

A catalogue of every prisoner who died in the Texas Department of Corrections custody for the time period under consideration. That, surely, wouldn't be covered by the family court business?

I already stated in my discussion that this sort of thing may not end up in the newspaper. As a trained psychologist, you would, of course, recognize a qualifier when you see one. Still, you would also understand that lack of evidence is not proof of a fact, so the only reasonable (you seem to like this word) conclusion to draw at this point is that the claim is unsubstantiated. Am I incorrect about that?

Second, just because there is a press blackout (supposing there is one) doesn't mean there is a records blackout. A conviction is a conviction. It is public record, and I'm not convinced that people can simply disappear into the system with nary a trace of a verdict. I'm also not convinced that the matter as described above would be adjudicated in family court at all. Some parallel cases would be useful on that. It seems like the sort of thing that would go to an adult criminal court, blackout or no. Show me.

[Midlodemocrat]

117. You have the details provided by the OP. Search Lexis for his name.

Search people finder. It will give you date of death and location.

Criminal background checks are something I don't have access to and I'm not willing to pay for it because this doesn't matter that much to me.

[alcibiades_mystery]

120. LOL

There was no name provided by the OP. Just county, town, and timeframe. Oh, for a name! A name! :rofl:

You think I would still be questioning this if we had a name to work with?

I already searched Lexis, as described.

My next step, if I have the time, will be to find out everyone who died in Texas prisons 1990-2006, with their ages and crime. That should narrow it down considerably. Perhaps that way, I can get a name and confirm this. I doubt it, though.

I have access to a Big Ten research library. We'll get to the bottom of this, trust me.

[Midlodemocrat]

121. Well, I wasn't aware of that because she PM'd you the information.

Why do you care so much? Do you have a grudge against the OP or something?

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

123. Not in the least

I care about the truth, which I'm trying to establish.

But, truly, I don't care THAT much. I'll look into it if I have time. I like a mystery. It's fun.

[Midlodemocrat]

126. You should be a prospect researcher. You'd be great it.

Your tenacity is something.

[alcibiades_mystery]

129. I am a researcher

Yes. It suits me. I like information detective work.

This is a particularly tough nut because there is so little information. If you ask about my investment, that's it. Tough puzzle, requiring numerous approaches. That, and a commitment to the idea that factual claims should be supported with actual evidence (another prejudice of the researcher, to be sure). Since the collapse of this simple notion has caused so much destruction in recent years, I am, I'll admit, a bit harsh whenever I see it collapsing in practice. Internet to Congress. Doesn't matter.

[Porcupine]

114. Oh just let them turn to the dark side why don't you.

It's good to hurt the BAD people. It's ok, you're still a good person. Just hit the molester, the pervert, and the wife beater, and the guy who hurts animals and the guy who sold meth at high school and the Iraqi's and the jews, and the communists and the catholics.

It's ok to hurt people. We're with you. Go ahead, do it. You can stop whenver you want to.
:puke:

[piedmont]

13. Satisfying or not, it is not in our best interest....

to send people to a place where evil and ultra-violence are not only tolerated, but necessary for survival. Because when they get out (the ones that do get released), they will apply the lessons they learned there. What lessons do we want to teach to these people?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lipton64]

75. I heard a fucked-up story the other year.....

where this one guy was wrongly convicted of a crime and then killed a man in prison. So the rationale was: hey, you put me in this crazy, gang-runned shithole, and it's your fault I was put into a violent siutation where I killed some dumb gangbanger for trying to knife me for not showing him "respect."

It's shit like this that make me wonder why we still have rational people who advocate capital punishment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. One thing I learned when working with street kids was

how many of them have been physically and sexually abused.

In their street culture, accusing someone of abusing children is tantamount to putting out a death threat, because if the kids believe the accusation, the kid who is accused has good reason to fear for his life.

For the same reason, anyone who is in prison for child molestation probably won't live very long. So many of the inmates have scores to settle.

[Blue_Roses]

94. I worked as a case worker years ago before having

my own kids and it was hard then. Now having kids, I don't think I could restrain myself with trash--and anyone who molests a child IS trash--like this. I had a case where I knew abuse (sexual) was going on but couldn't prove it. I worked with mentally and physically disabled children who couldn't sometimes speak for themselves. Yes, brutal work and it's almost like you have to build a shield around yourself to keep the hurt out. HIGH burn-out rate.

There is some small satisfaction that molesters are the most hated in prison.