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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:12 AM
Original message
08 Litmus Test
Aside from brilliant, kind, compassionate, free-thinking, etc. etc.,
I believe our 2008 candidate, should pass the following Litmus Test - characteristics that were Kerry's fatal flaws that made it impossible for him to beat the "fraud spread."

DOES YOUR CANDIDATE PASS?

1. Does your Candidate have a controversial past? In 04, we picked a candidate that had a known controversial past in Vietnam and opened the door for it to continue. His service record was swift-boated in previous senatorial races and no one saw it coming in 04. It is inevitable that the Republicans will create controversy if there is none, but why start out with fuel for the fire?

2. Did your Candidate vote for the Iraq Invasion without subsequent retraction? In 04, the Iraq Invasion was Bush's Achilles heal and we had a candidate who's position was murky at best. Although by 2008 people will be saying, "Ok, what do you do about it going forward?", it would be great to be able to preface your solution with, "I was against this from the start, but this is the way I see things going forward..."

3. Does your Candidate have courage of conviction? The American people are yearning for someone who speaks and acts with unmistakable conviction. A person who automatically knows what is right and just no matter how the political winds blow (Dean, Kucinich, Carter, Kennedy immediately come to mind).
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. I totally disagree with 1.
For one thing there isn't a Democratic Candidate that Republicans haven't been lieing about for as long as they have been a Democrat. I do think that Kerry could have handled the Swift Boat Liars, but if we only run candidates who the Right Wing isn't going to lie about, get used to Lieberman/Zell Miller in '08.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, if you KNOW you are going to get an elephant in the room
why would you pick someone who already has an elephant in the room? If you want to win and 50% of the public claims they would never in a million years vote for that person, does that make sense?

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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. No - and that's why Teddy Kennedy shouldn't run
In Kerry's case it was not the event (his honorable and heroic service in Vietnam) that was the problem; it was Republican lies about that service.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well, I didn't say Kennedy should run - he doesn't pass item #1
He has controversy already with Chappaquiddick. I just meant that he passes the 3rd item, unflinching courage of conviction.

I agree with you - Kerry got a horrible rap on Vietnam. But, the fact remains, there are pieces about his service that were already controversial back to his previous senate campaigns - i.e. shooting the guy in the back, in Cambodia or not. I certainly think that they definitely lied about him when he talked about the atrocities - he was quoting someone else but they attributed the comments to him every single time. Even if nothing bad was true, it was already out there as an albatross.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes, Laura, you start from an erroneous assumption...
Kerry did not have a controversial Vietnam record. This was something completely manufactured by the Bush campaign when it started getting worried about Kerry's service making him an attractive candidate in time of war.

None of the 'Swiftboaters' were even close enough to Kerry's boat during any action to see what happened. None of them had ever made accusations against him before.

There WAS a simmering anger against Kerry among some Vietnam vets for appearing before congress in 1972 and saying the things he did, but the things he said made him a hero in my book.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I am sure it was all embellished, yes, you are right. But I am
sure also that I read that all this stuff had come up before. I'll look for a link.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. If you are going to start down this road...
... I can save you a lot of trouble. You are probably going to end up with Barack Obama. If a lack of "Things someone has said, voted for, or stood for" that could come back to haunt them is your goal, he is your best bet. He also does have the courage of conviction. He is on my list of top four, but I am still undecided.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, you're right, there are always going to be things someone
can dredge up - My only point is more - why pick someone who already has skeletons?

I guess whether or not someone passes all three is pretty subjective. I happen to think Gore and Clark do. Obama? Jury out for me. Clinton - she fails on #1, #2, and probably #3.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. This is more of an anti-Hillary process I think.
Speaking of negatives, we should say "negatives for WHO". If we are talking about not having major negatives for the right wing wackos, you will end up with only one name on your list: Ronald Reagan, and he's dead.

The question isn't really whether you have negatives (everybody does), but can you HANDLE them.

Exactly what negatives does Hillary have anyway that fail her on #1?

One person's "negative" is another person's hero material.

Barak has admitted to using marijuana and cocaine.

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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. The last I heard, 50% of the electorate would NEVER vote
for her. I believe this may have come down since then - but you surely
have to admit - that's a negative.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-13-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I'd like to see that poll.
I know it's true that somewhere between 35% and 45% say they would definitely not vote for HC given a list of names to pick from, but that is better than Al Gore or John Kerry does in the poll. And it is also not the same as "never" going to vote for her. So, that's not what I would call an "empirical" number in that there are 45% of people who would definitely not vote for her. It just means that 45% prefer someone else on a list of many names. But... more people choose HC than any other single choice.

She still leads all other Dems in all polls all the time. We'll see how Barak does since he's getting so much attention now. I'm just sayin', the automatic disqualification is, I think, based on erroneous information and a leap of logic anyway.

http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm#misc
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Poll from January
CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Jan. 20-22, 2006. N=928 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 4.

.

"Next, I'm going to ask you about some people who may run for president in 2008. For each one, please tell me whether you will definitely vote for that person, whether you might consider voting for that person, or whether you will definitely not vote for that person. How about ?"

.
% % % %
Hillary Rodham Clinton
Definitely........................16
Vote For Might Consider...........32
Voting For Definitely Not.........51
Vote For Unsure...................1


1/20-22/06
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. And a month later,
same target group (registered voters), it was down to 44%, and in May it was down to 42%.
It continues to vary: 47, 29, 34, 37, 45.

And in many similar polls, over 50% say they would definitely or maybe vote for her.

The point is, if you disqualify her based on this, I think you would have to disqualify Kerry, Edwards, Gore, and several others because there are even worse negative poll numbers for them.

You can have whatever litmus test you want of course, but this one doesn't work for me.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. to each his own.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-12-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. 2 and 3 are contradictory.
I agree with the sentiment that the candidate must have good "instincts". The road to the WH is very tough, dirty, unfair, and incredibly over-examined. The candidate should be able to fight in this arena, and even when correcting mistakes, do so with class and conviction.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. I disagree with all, especially 2 - - it should be did your candidate oppose the war from the start?
First of all, there's nothing here really about the candidate proving that they can deliver the goods. Even if a candidate conforms perfectly to an ideological litmus test, voters need to know they can turn their ideas into reality - - and how that reality compares to the original idea.

Regarding #1: This is impractical if not impossible. The whole point of the Republican smear machine is it can manufacture a controversial past out of thin air. They spin a candidate's strengths as liabilities and they take a microscope to a candidate's record and public statements and pull anything that can sounds weird or suspicious out of context and use it (sans context) prove that the candidate is a liar and/or crazy and/or incompetent and/or a craven political hack who can't be trusted. Any candidate is vulnerable to this form of attack unless we reform the media.

Even if there was no Republican smear machine, how exactly are we supposed to be 100% sure we know whether a candidate has skeletons in their closet or not? Candidates don't go around saying, "Hi, I'm Senator Goodhair, and I'm having an affair with my crack dealer, who's a 13 year old illegal immigrant from Honduras. My votes sell for a minimum of $100,000 a piece. Did I mention I haven't stopped beating my wife?" Especially here at DU, it's very difficult to learn anything about the weaknesses of potential Dem candidates - - if somebody posts "It says on OpenSecrets.org that Senator Goodhair is the leading recipient of campaign contributions from Satan, what's up with that?", they will receive a long string of apologies ("Satan supports the separation of church and state!") and abuse ("Only a Freeper would repeat that smear here!! Just because it's a matter of public record is no reason to believe it's true!!!"). Similarly, smears from past or current campaigns about Senator Goodhair will be routinely posted as the truth, without the poster bothering to verify the veracity of their claim. And trivia - - especially if it is the CW of the MSM - - is floated as vitally important fact: "Senator Goodhair can't win, because his middle name is Glockenspiel. There's never been a President whose middle name was a musical instrument before, so one can never win."

Regarding #2: Granted, retraction is better than stubbornly insisting that we should "stay the course", but voting for the IRW in the first place shows that the person either 1.) does not have the ability to tell the difference between a necessary, planned military action and the worst strategic mistake in American history or 2.) can tell the difference but is willing to vote for the worst strategic mistake in American history to gain political popularity or 3.) can tell the difference but is willing to vote for the worst strategic mistake in American history because they're afraid of the right wing smear machine.

Additionally, accepting a candidate who voted for the IWR but recanted concedes a great deal of turf to the Republicans. To an independent voter, what's the difference between a Democrat who voted for the IRW but recanted and a Republican who voted for the IRW then recanted? Very little, but what little there is, isn't good - - it seems more reasonable that a Republican would blindly follow President Bush.

If the Republicans nominate somebody like McCain or Hagel and our nominee is somebody who was also in Congress and voted for the IRW resolution, the national security part of the election quickly moves on from Iraq (because neither side will want to dwell on the fact that they voted for such a disaster) to the more general question of "who has more foreign policy/national defense/anti-terrorism experience"? Unless your candidate (who voted for the IRW but later recanted) has the strongest foreign policy/national defense/anti-terrorism experience in Congress, you've just compromised your principles for nothing.

Also, you risk the Republicans nominating somebody like Guiliani or Romney who did not vote for the war, who can then use the Dem's IRW vote as proof that the Democrat isn't Presidential material.

Regarding #3: There's no internal logic in this list. How can it demand a candidate have the courage of conviction if it also demand that they have recanted their IRW vote? Shouldn't the courage of conviction demand they stick to their original vote?

That to one side, how on earth are folks supposed to tell what is the actual courage of conviction and what is spin? What if the things that the candidate has the courage of conviction about are so popular they are never tested in any meaningful way during their time in office? On any given vote or statment or action, you will read here at DU and in the MSM both that it proves the candidate is a paragon of virtue and that it proves the candidate is a craven political hack. Where is the completely unbiased source where we can research this? Where is the moral equivalent to OpenSecrets.org?
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. If you don't think that they could attempt to swift boat even Gen. Clark
or find some dirt to try and muddy him then think again. Everybody has a past and while I agree that Kerry didnt respond well to the attacks, I don't think we can find this hypothetical pure candidate.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-14-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. bullshit - there is no reason to think that we can no start from
AT LEAST ground zero - sure, they will make up everything BUT
why not start with a PURE canididate;

ala Wesley Clark
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