Are meat-eaters who are unwilling to kill animals hypocrites?

[wtmusic]

Poll question: Are meat-eaters who are unwilling to kill animals hypocrites?

Yes -- Maybe not W-grade hypocrisy, but by picking up their little wrapped styrofoam dish at the supermarket they are accomplices to suffering and death, and should at least in theory be williing to do the dirty work.

No -- One can be perfectly aware of the pain and suffering and choose not to have to participate, without the slightest hint of hypocrisy.

[emmajane67]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[wtmusic]

2. Corn-killer! nt

[sam sarrha]

corn is safe.. when they start making fuel out of it.. you wont be able to afford to eat it

[youthere]

14. You have the right idea...

:popcorn:

[Chimichurri]

3. Are vegetarians unwilling to farm hypocrites? This is a silly question.

[tridim]

19. Unfortunately humans have evolved as omnivores.

Eating meat isn't hypocritical, it's nature.

I've never killed an animal, but if I had to for survival I would. Vegetarians would too. ;)

[Chimichurri]

22. Of course. That's why it's a silly question. Any of us would do what

was necessary to feed ourselves. If that meant hunting or farming, instead of taking a trip to the supermarket, we'd be doing it.

[Warpy]

57. Nah, we evolved the meat so we could eat it.

I'll believe humans are meant to be omnivores the day I see some hunter tearing through a deer hide with his teeth and munching the raw flesh below.

[PVnRT]

105. See, a loooooooong time ago, a thing called "fire" was invented

And early man used it to cook the raw meat that otherwise made his stomach feel upset.

History is a wonderful thing.

[johnaries]

126. Look at your teeth.

See the ones in front? Those are specifically designed to tear meat. The teeth in back are designed to chew vegetables.

[BoneDaddy]

23. Totally agreed

Are people who drive who don't make their cars...hypocrites?

[wtmusic]

30. Closely-related question:

are so-called "chickenhawks" who refuse to fight in Iraq hypocrites? Your car analogy ignores a moral component.

[NeedleCast]

49. Few Weeks Back

there was a topic on this where one person suggested (very strongly) that any able bodied American who voted for Bush should immediatly be drafted and sent to Iraq. I disagreed (and because of my low post count was immediatly tagged as a "freeper").

We live in a specialized society. I am a software trainer and am skilled in several other IT related fields. I am ex-military and have a wide skill set based on my training/experience. I am not a mechanic. I drive a car and rely on someone else to fix it when it breaks. I rely on someone to produce the liquids that power it (gas) and protect it (oil, grease). Should I not be allowed to drive because I can't maintain and fuel my car by myself?

I understand your question about the moral component and it's something to be considered but I think it's still a silly question. Are you a hypocrit if you love children and have a high amount of income but don't adopt a poor child?

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Really? Why?

Morality is always a relative judgment. Knowing that the car might be made in Mexico by people only being paid $3 per hour means some american family no longer has a good job, that the mexican worker is being exploited, and that the redistribution of wealth is directed more up than out. For some people those things would have high moral implication.

Everything has the potential to have a moral component. Might require digging a little deeper than would be considered productive, but it's still there.
The Professor

[wtmusic]

64. That's why I'm asking the question

I can't equate killing animals with hiring a plumber, as some here are. Nonetheless, I'm not a veggie. It's something I've never felt completely at peace about.

[ProfessorGAC]

77. Well, Several Times. . .

. . .you've accused others of a false analogy. However, i see a fundamental flaw in your moral premise. If one digs deeply enough, a moral implication can be applied to anything.

So, those people who are making the analogy are no more flawed in their reasoning than you are in yours. You may both be wrong, both be right, or both be "half-right half-wrong". (If there is such a thing.)

And, btw, i share your squemishness. I can eat steak with a bone in it, pork or beef ribs off the bone, and i can eat chicken if it's boneless, but i would puke if i tried to eat chicken off the bone. I don't know it there's a moral component in that or not. It certainly isn't logical, but one of those bothers me and the others don't. But, somehow i can't bring myself to conclude that there is hypocrisy involved. A logical disconnect, yes. Hypocritical, no.

Just a quirk in personality or something. Perhaps your discomfort is rooted in the same place as mine. It doesn't make sense, but does it have to?
The Professor

[BoneDaddy]

88. No they are not

Eating meat is only a moral issue if YOU make it one.

How can you possibly compare chickenhawk behavior to eating meat? They are vastly different.

[Warpy]

47. Exactly. Plants die (or their progeny do) to keep us alive along with

the meat most folks eat and most people are completely disconnected from that process. Family gardens have fallen out of favor due to the increase in the hours people must work to support themselves. It's also really hard to garden or raise small livestock if you live in a big city.

[Catherine Vincent]

4. Don't know.

I guess it's the same answer if vegetarians are unwilling to grow and pick their own vegetables instead of someone else doing it for them.

[wtmusic]

7. Is it the same?

Is there no moral element to killing animals? :shrug:

[IA_Seth]

60. No, no there isn't. n/t

[toadzilla]

11. im perfectly willing

to grow and pick my own vegetables. If only I had more sun in my yard, I cant grow too much as it is.

[TheBaldyMan]

5. Definately, yes we are. I think a trip to the average slaughterhouse

or intensively farmed meat-producing farm would turn most people veggie in a second.

[HereSince1628]

16. everyone should see what's lurking under the mats in produce

departments refrigerated and watered cases.

It'd make them a believer in washing and cooking their veggies if it didn't absolutely convince them that fresh veggies shouldn't be purchased at all.

[jgraz]

39. That's why I only eat humanely-raised, organic meat

Factory farms are horrible no matter what they produce. Take a trip through Central CA and see how the pickers are treated.

[Vanje]

87. Good for you! Me too

I raise my own. Its a great pleasure for me.
Though they may not live long, they live well.
When the time comes, I butcher myself, right here at home.

Happy animals just taste better!
Dont eat a stranger!

Many people cant grow their own.
Buying home grown is the next best thing.

[gollygee]

66. I've been to a slaughterhouse

I used to work for a newspaper and was given a tour. I still eat meat. I doubt there are very many vegetarians working at slaughterhouses either, so all those meat eaters who work there would also kind of ruin your theory.

[geek tragedy]

6. Are people unwilling to work with human feces

hypocrites for using toilets?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. best response ever

[NeedleCast]

8. ...

I am unwilling to harvest cotten so I guess I should remove my clothes?

Trust me, no one in my office needs that kind of pain in their lives.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. Only in the same way

that people who like their teeth but are unwilling to drill them themselves are.

[LittleClarkie]

10. I want my food killed gangster style

I give the word, and the little bugger is offed.

[havocmom]

34. um, in some cases, wouldn't that be 'the little buRGer'?

:rofl:

[Taxloss]

46. "Tonight, he sleeps on some dishes"

You could have little concrete shoes for your turkey instead of those paper chef's hat thingies.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Tony, see that chicken? The one with the attitude?

He needs to be taken care of... knowwhatImean?

[PVnRT]

107. As long as they make it look like an accident

n/t

[jobycom]

12. Nah, they're just lucky they don't have to do the dirty work.

I'm vegetarian, so I'm biased, but not militant on this. I have no issue with meat eaters, but in general I feel like someone who hunts now and then for their own food is more connected to their food supply. Somehow in my mind that makes them a little more realistic, or a little more a part of their own circle of life. Hard to explain. But I don't hold it against meat eaters who don't or wouldn't kill their own food.

Although, if I am being totally honest, I wonder about people who are extreme animal lovers, who oppose animal abuse and want to see crimes for cruelty to animals, and who love their pets as though they were family members... in other words, people who love animals and believe that animals can love. I guess I do feel like people like that are not being complete with themselves, in some way. Not that I'd hold it against them.

Just my take. I didn't vote in the poll. Seems a bit flame-baitish. But I responded, so... whatever that means.

[wtmusic]

26. Fine line between flamebait and controversy

and the only reason I ask is that I'm torn myself.

My sis participated in a survival class called Outward Bound at the end of which participants were required to slaughter a lamb for a feast. The put a wire around the lamb's neck and all pulled. It changed her outlook, and sometimes I think all meat-eaters should have to go through this at least once.

[Giant Robot]

13. In some small way more likely than not

But I am ok with my hypocrisy. Thats part of being human as well.

[The2ndWheel]

15. Not in our specialized world

It's just the reality we live in.

[sam sarrha]

17. is it ok if you only eat road kill..??

[toadzilla]

21. waste not, want not.

[sam sarrha]

45. before the "Red Zone"..LINK>.. i would collect the choice cuts off the morning deer kill in WA along

my mountain road, i tanned hides and fed allot of poor people around.. also lost allot of girlfriends stopping to get dinner on a date..

see http://www.maddear.com check out the links.. a study i heard on NPR showed that about 12-16% of Alzheimer's patients had CJD. probably from infected beef.. it is spread by social licking among deer, and dear congregate around grazing land cattle salt licks

[mondo joe]

18. To the same degree that people who usecomputers but aren't willing to build one are.

:crazy:

[Buzz Clik]

I didn't build my home, I can't fix my car, I don't manufacture aspirin...

Damn, what a ridiculous question.

[ComerPerro]

24. No kidding. The veggies have really been reaching lately

[wtmusic]

38. So then "chickenhawks" who won't fight in Iraq

aren't hypocrites either? :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

50. Did these chickenhawks eat the dead?

Jesus effing Christ. What a wild-assed tangent.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. also last i heard humans were sending other HUMANS to die..not chicken/cows'/pig/shrimp

[wtmusic]

56. Oh come on

These people are responsible for death and dying and are not willing to participate. It's not that difficult.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. death and dying of your own species is very different from the massacre of salmon.

its not that difficult.

[wtmusic]

68. How different?

You choose to ignore any moral component whatsoever.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. do you honestly believe that killing a cow equates killing a soldier

you choose to ignore common sense...


are the deaths of salmon equal to the holocaust? (in all fairness way more salmon have died for food than did jews in the holocaust)

honestly try to make a realistic argument

[wtmusic]

78. Of course not

Do you honestly believe killing animals for food has no moral component?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. i dont,

have you ever seen a lion kill its prey?

its not moral, its just called food

[wtmusic]

82. And it's irrelevant that humans can do just fine without any meat at all

Please don't take it personally. Just asking.

[Buzz Clik]

94. How can you charge someone with being morally compromised and expect no reaction?

Of course it will be taken personally.

[wtmusic]

98. Show me where I've done that?

Thanks.

[Buzz Clik]

103. You've got to be joking.

You've equated eating animals to killing people.

You've dismissed analogies about cars or houses because "there is no moral component." Are you telling me that you are not suggesting that people who kill animals for food are committing an immoral act? If not, then exactly what did you mean by your "moral component" comment?

[wtmusic]

112. quotes, quotes

You're putting words in my mouth. Show me where I've equated eating animals to killing people.

I'm asking questions, and you're interpreting them as opinions. Why?

[Buzz Clik]

113. See post #38. Your words exactly as I said.

Now you have resorted to fucking around with words.

I'm done here, but I created a similar jackass poll in your honor:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2903441

[wtmusic]

116. Yeah, words can be a pain in the ass

when they're taken at face value.

:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

122. Oh, I see. Now it's all a big joke.

:eyes:

[PVnRT]

109. So, what is "THE" moral standard, hmmmm?

You must be privy to some fundamental knowledge that the rest of us don't know. Please outline for us what THE one and only correct moral code is. We'll wait.

[wtmusic]

118. Tut, tut

No need to get defensive.

Everyone has their own moral code. I had little knowledge of others' moral codes here on this subject...that's why I'm asking.

Try it sometime.

[PVnRT]

120. Then why did you ask in a combative manner?

The way you framed the question pretty well guarentees you the responses you have. Which means you are either remarkably bereft of either tact or conversational skills, or you were just trolling.

[wtmusic]

121. This is interesting

I have an internal conflict about this, and IMO everyone does to some extent. I have acknowedged hypocrisy on my own part. What part seems combative to you?

[Buzz Clik]

83. This argument is a twisted trail of one group imposing morals on others.

The war analogy fits this line of thinking quite well if you are willing to stand back and abandon the conversation at hand. Likewise, we could introduce the abortion debate. Or fetal stem cells. Or the immorality of using IUDs, birthcontrol pills, or (in the extreme case) condoms. Life is being denied in all cases.

I frankly don't care that plants cannot feel pain in the same style of animals; if you kill a plant to eat it, you're still causing life to cease. Veggies are okay with that because plants don't bleed like animals, moo, or squeal.

The bottom line is damned simple: everybody draws the line somewhere.

So, vegetarian fundamentalists, get out of my face!

[The2ndWheel]

91. What about the salmon that don't die for food?

The Nazis weren't killing Jews because they wanted to eat them.

[Buzz Clik]

96. Okay -- killing salmon for recreation (not eating) is immoral.

I'm good with that.

[Buzz Clik]

63. Why the radical change in subject? Did I deny the existence of hypocrisy?

Yes, hypocrites exist. It is also possible that some meat eaters would stop eating meat if force to skin and gut their meals. That makes them hypocrites.

I have slaughtered the animals I have eaten, but not for many years. I continue to eat meat. Am I a hypocrite? Hell no.

This conversation is a stretch, and this diversion is silly.

[NeedleCast]

74. Actually it is pretty difficult

The government of Turkmanistan is one of the most brutal, oppresive regimes on the planet, yet neither the Democrats or Republicans talk about it at all. Since neither party has expressed much interest in this issue, aren't you supporting an brutal regime by voting for Democrats (or Repbulicans)?

I really don't see the link between supporting something and having to be an active participant in its (doing/creation/manufacture/whatever) and being a hypocrit if you don't.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. well do meat eaters typically eat HUMANS?

its not like the chickenhawks sent off a bunch of cow/chickens/pigs to fight the war

[Buzz Clik]

58. brilliant minds...

;)

[BoneDaddy]

20. Are people who like to wear wool

hypocrites if they don't do the shearing?

That said, there most likely would be more vegetarians if people did have to kill and prepare their own food.

[Lex]

33. When people used to have to kill & prepare their own meat

do you think there were more vegetarians due to how they felt about animals?

I don't think so.

[jgraz]

67. Wrong spot...and Bush Sucks

[BoneDaddy]

95. You are comparing modern civilization with

history and I believe they are vastly different.

I think you are correct if it came down to a matter of survival. For instance if people had to kill animals to survive, you would find that people would have no problem doing the killing as they would need it to stay alive.

But the modern "civilized" people, who are far removed from the process of killing animals, would consider the process horrific, unless it meant their survival. But it doesn't make them hypocrites, just removed.

Apples and oranges, nice try.

[Lex]

100. Not apples and oranges.

People are removed from the killing of animals so that makes them more sensitive to it. That's all.

Right now, in modern day, if we were not removed from it, we wouldn't have that sensitivity and it wouldn't be a big deal. And not only for survival either.

You are confusing being civilized with being sensitive to raising animals for food. They are not mutually exclusive.

[AngryAmish]

25. I am sick of vegetarian hypocrites

Will they think for a moment about a plant's suffering? No. They just greedily devour them without a thought.

[RebelOne]

43. No, we vegetarians do not think for a moment

about a plant's suffering because a plant has no nerve endings and can't feel pain.

[Jack_DeLeon]

115. So if a person was born without never endings it would be okay to kill them...

cause they cant feel pain right?

Murder is murder. :)

[NoPasaran]

52. Yeah! Salad is murder!

No wonder Hitler was a vegetarian!

[AngryAmish]

104. My point exactly!

[ComerPerro]

27. I vote other, I'd like to see a third choice. "NO - duh"

[youthere]

28. IBTL

[gollygee]

29. I would kill animals if I couldn't buy them already killed

I don't kill animals because I don't have to. Just like I don't do many tasks I'm lucky enough to be able to pay someone else to do.

Death is a natural part of life. I don't understand why people are so disturbed by death. I certainly hope that animals' suffering can be minimized, and I buy local meat where I know the source so I'm pretty comfortable that the animals I eat were raised and killed humanely.

[Lex]

35. Yes, that's the way it worked for thousands of years

so we'd just go back to doing that if necessary. It's not necessary, so we don't.

[leftofthedial]

32. are internet users who are unwilling to manufacture PCs hypocrites?

[havocmom]

41. And how about people who eat but refuse to cook?

Or those who insist on eating off clean plates but won't wash the damn dishes?

[mondo joe]

48. If they can work out that arrangement, no problem. NT

[porphyrian]

36. I pay other people to dispose of my shit, too.

A meat-eater who complained about meat being eaten would be a hypocrite. As far as I know, meat-eaters aren't doing that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. are you willing to drill your own oil? mine your own coal? clean out your sewers?

i am equally unwilling to do these things as i am of killing my meat.

[wtmusic]

40. False analogy nt

[havocmom]

71. How so?

:shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. just cause you call something false doesnt make it false.

i often dont do my own dirtywork. its not hypocrisy. we all have jobs to do. i am not a butcher. or a sewer cleaner. or a coal miner.


could i do it, if i werent raised as a city girl? sure.

[wtmusic]

89. You could kill animals to feed yourself?

How do you know? I see a lot of people making that claim.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. i used to fish as a child...and have watched slaughter of animals before

didnt stop me from eating it

[wtmusic]

119. IMO it's good for everyone to have that experience

I have hunted and killed before myself. I didn't enjoy it, but I sure as hell eat meat.

[Taxloss]

42. Are car dirvers who are unwilling to work in a bauxite mine hypocrites?

Or something. I was born in India and am consequently unsqueamish about the notion of home slaughter, but I completely understand why veggies might ask the question.

[jgraz]

44. Want to really see hypocrisy? Ask a veggie why they had children

After all -- will all their kids be veggie? All their kids' kids? And even if they are, won't the collective output of CO2 and waste products from their descendents hurt far more animals than my once-a-month organic burger does?

[mondo joe]

54. What about people who produce garbage but are unwilling to take it to the

landfill?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

55. Not always participating in pain and suffering

An animal can be killed ritualistically, where prayers are offered in gratitude for their sacrifice, and the deed is done as quickly as possible. I have eaten meat killed in this way, and there is a difference.

[jody]

62. Or is a hypocrite someone who buys non-essential things while others starve? n/t

[ContraBass Black]

65. I have my feet on a carpet I didn't weave.

Shame on me.

[ecstatic]

69. Are anti-war Americans whose tax dollars pay for bombs hypocrites?

:shrug: Yes, but sometimes in life, we have no choice but to be hypocrites. The system is just set up that way.

[wtmusic]

75. agree

I had no idea people would take this thread so personally.

I'm a hypocrite. Everyone posting here is a hypocrite, to some degree. But my oh my, just point that fact out...:scared:

[jgraz]

76. Well, the thread is flame-bait to some degree

You kinda had to see that coming, didn't you?

[Buzz Clik]

92. No shit, Sherlock. And Bush sucks.

[ecstatic]

81. I think the retorts are all in good fun

Don't worry, your post might make someone think twice before buying a steak or turkey in the future.

[Buzz Clik]

90. Nobody likes to be preached to or given negative labels.

Your willingness (eagerness!) to do so is the single cause for the reactions you are getting.

[wtmusic]

97. The post was a question

I haven't given anyone any labels. IMO it's more a case of people unwilling to acknowledge some level of hypocrisy.

[Buzz Clik]

108. You are correct: eating meat I did not prepare is not hypocritical.

Your question was black or white: eating meat you refused to prepare is hyprocrisy or it is not.

You have been confronted with several instances on this thread where people have told you that they have and are willing to slaughter, skin, and gut their meat, but not every day.

I'd be more willing to accept your claim of an innocent question if you'd have acknowledged the shades of gray. This thread is dripping with moralism.

[wtmusic]

114. That's why I posited it

as not "W-grade hypocrisy", but I doubt if many even got to that part without jumping feverishly to the keyboard to defend a perceived slight.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

124. oh my god! i almost choked when i saw this.

:rofl:

[The2ndWheel]

84. Well you have a choice

They'll threaten you if you don't pay, but you do have a choice. It's just rational to go down the easy road.

Like testing on non-humans for human progress.

Or continuing to pay the taxes that feed the military machine.

Or allowing(funny word) corporations like Monsanto to slowly but surely own the rights to food.

Or to keep up the lifestyle that empire has given us.

Or...well, plenty of examples.

We all have a choice. We just enjoy the ease of order more than the alternative.

[mondo joe]

70. Are people who want to have funerals for their dead but refuse to embalm their loved ones

themselves hypocrites?

[youthere]

93. Following that same line..

A couple years ago I didn't want my son to die from septicemia..but I wasn't willing to perform the appendectomy myself...label me a hypocrite too.
Sigh.

[jgraz]

73. What about veggies who won't grow their own food?

How many animals died for your factory-farmed monoculture grains? Or those nice big juicy strawberries you had for dessert? How much CO2 was produced to get those nice New Zealand avocadoes to you for your December guacamole?

Everything has consequences. Meat can be farmed and consumed humanely just as produce can. The real problem is corporate farming, not meat eaters.

[Pithlet]

85. edit nevermind.

This thread is just flamebait.

[LoZoccolo]

86. Yeah, so are pro-choice women who won't eat the fetus! n/t

[last1standing]

101. Of course meat eaters are hypocrites.

Just not necessarily for eating meat but being unwilling to kill it. Every damned one of us is a hypocrite to some extent, much as you are for living off the work of those nasty meat eaters. If you are so adamant in your support for vegetarianism, do you refuse to deal with omnivores? Do you talk to people wearing leather? Do you drive so slowly that bugs can't be crushed on your windshield? Every one of these things makes you complicit in the bloody act of murder against your fellow creatures. After all, in two of these instances you'd be aiding and abetting while in the third you'd be the actual murderer.

I always find these arguments to be silly as none of us is immune to the finger pointing game. If you really wanted to save the lives of animals, you'd campaign to reduce waste and increase health, not try guilting people into changing their entire lives in one fell swoop. Why not ask people to think about letting excess meat rot in the fridge before buying so much lunch meat? Maybe you could talk about the health benefits of tofu and other meat substitutes that can be used to great effect. You could even talk about the Southern European diet that includes far less meat and has been proved to be much healthier.

You'll never get anyone to change their diet with guilt and nagging, at least not in the long run.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

102. this is a thoughtful post.

[wtmusic]

106. ROFL

well at least you didn't call the post silly ;-)

Any guilt you glean from this thread is purely self-induced. I am not a vegetarian and nowhere on this thread do I:

-support vegetarianism
-refuse to deal with omnivores
-admit I refuse to talk to people wearing leather
-admit I drive slowly to avoid killing bugs
-point fingers
-say I wanted to save the lives of animals
-try to "guilt" people
-nag anyone
-give a crap whether anyone changes their diet

See what I mean?

[PVnRT]

110. So, you just wanted to troll?

n/t

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack_DeLeon]

111. Yes...

Althought I have not had to kill an animal to eat I am willing to do so if it was necessary. I did however help tear apart and cook a rabbit that was recently killed by some classmates once. It was a wilderness survival class.

Its pretty sad that some people are ignorant about how food gets to the table so to say.

That being said I have no problem what so ever with the suffering and death my food goes through to get into my stomache. mmm mmm good.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

125. i totaLLy agree

as a cannibaL, i need to make sure each meaL is kiLLed, pLucked and drained by my own hands so as not to branded with the LabeL of hypocrasy.

[Minnesota_Lib]

128. After you get done calling me a hypocrite, could you pass the A-1?

:)

[Moderator]

129. locking...

This is flamebait.