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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:46 PM
Original message
Why Bush-Cheney Can Never Allow a Peaceful Transfer of Power
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 12:50 PM by leveymg
Even here at DU, few of us really understand how high the stakes truly are for members of the Administration to keep control over Congress, the White House, the federal courts, and ultimately, the military. In the starkest possible terms, many ranking officials are facing the near-certainty of long periods of imprisonment even if Bush grants a presidential pardon to everyone. They are playing for keeps. Let me tell you why.

THE UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE AND THE U.S. TORTURE ACT OF 2000

In 1987, the United Nations Convention Against Torture (CAT) came into effect. The United States Senate ratified the CAT in 1994 and President George H.W. Bush signed the Torture Act of 2000. 18 U.S.C. §§ 2340, 2340A, and 2340B. That law provides domestic teeth to enabling legislation that penalizes anyone convicted of ordering, inciting, assisting or committing torture forbidden by the treaty. That felony statute provides for 20 years imprisonment for a U.S. person committing a torture crime, with the potential death penalty if the act results in death of the victim. American military personnel are subject to similiar measure under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_against_Torture; also, see, http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/detainees/us_torture_laws.htm

The CAT treaty binds all 140 signatory states to arrest and try at the Hague anyone who violates the torture convention if the state in which the offense took place is either unable or unwilling to do so. There are no exceptions for perpetrators who have received pardons or amnesties from their own governments. It matters not at all whether this Administration refuses to acknowledge the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice at the Hague. It is now clear that U.S. officials have committed offenses under the convention, as well as other crimes against humanity, and a trial cannot be prevented except by force.

"THE MEMO"

Just before the media sand storm about U.S. ports blanketed the news earlier this week, The New Yorker magazine published another of its extraorinary articles about the crimes of state that have marked the Bush-Cheney era. On February 20, the on-line version of that magazine's February 27 issue appeared. It contained an article by Jane Mayer with the ominously simple title, "THE MEMO". The subtitle reads, "How an internal effort to ban the abuse and torture of detainees was thwarted." It is long, but absolutely required reading. It finally gives the details about the papertrail that was created by Pentagon lawyers that leads from Abu Ghraib directly to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as well as dozens of ranking officials at the Defense and Justice Departments. See, http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/060227fa_fact.

Mayer's article lays out the roadmap of evidence by which either the domestic or international torture prosecution of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Gonzales, Yoo, and the others will inevitably have to follow.

A useful accompanying piece by Pat_K appeared here at DU earlier this morning. In addition to providing a good synopsis of the major points in Mayer's piece, it gives a comprehensive Guide to Key Players, that will be particularly helpful for those who have not been closely following the Abu Ghraib and Extraordinary Rendition stories. See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=503566&mesg_id=503566

PROSECUTION UNDER US LAW

The organization Human Rights First provides a useful primer on the subject. HRF outlines the three relevant statutes under which domestic prosecutions of Iraq war crimes could take place (link above):

The Torture Act of 2000
18 U.S.C. §§ 2340, 2340A, and 2340B

SNIP

The Torture Act makes it a federal crime for any U.S. national (or anyone later found present in the United States) to commit torture or conspire or attempt to commit torture outside the United States. Crimes under the Torture Act are punishable by fine and/or imprisonment up to 20 years; or, if the victim dies, by life imprisonment or death.

Although the Torture Act is intended to implement the United States' treaty obligations under the Convention Against Torture (which the United States ratified with certain reservations in 1994), there are some important differences between the definition of "torture" under U.S. law and the concept of torture in the Convention, particularly with regard to "mental pain or suffering," which is more narrowly defined in the Torture Act.

The Torture Act defines "'torture' an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control." The law then limits the scope of "severe mental pain or suffering" to mean "prolonged mental harm" resulting from (i) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction upon the victim or a third person of "severe physical pain or suffering"; (ii) the administration or threatened administration upon the victim or a third person of "mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality"; or (iii) the "threat of imminent death" of the victim or a third person. Unlike the U.S. law, the Torture Convention does not require that mental harm be "prolonged," nor does the Convention limit the types of causes for mental harm.

Most non-U.S. nationals fall outside the jurisdiction of the Torture Act, since it only applies to suspected torturers who are U.S. nationals, or who are later found physically present in the United States. Conduct prosecuted under the Torture Act need not, however, be linked to armed conflict, nor must the accused have any connection to the military. As with MEJA and the War Crimes Act, there have been no completed trials under the Torture Act"


In addition to The Torture Act, there is a second US felony statute under which Bush-Cheney officials could be prosecuted for human rights offenses in Iraq.

The War Crimes Act of 1996
18 U.S.C. § 2441

"The War Crimes Act provides federal jurisdiction over prosecutions for "war crimes," which the law defines as "grave breaches" of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, violations of Common Article 3 to the Geneva Conventions, and certain other offenses. These so-called "grave breaches" can include offenses against noncombatants, or surrendered or injured combatants, involving "willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment . . . willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health."

The Act applies whether the crimes are committed "inside or outside the United States," and whether the "person committing such war crime...is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States." (It does not apply to non-citizens or nationals of the United States.) The statute also applies if the victim is in one of these categories. War crimes committed in the course of declared or undeclared armed conflicts, or during military occupation, are covered by the Act."


Finally, HRN states that civilian contractors working for the US military could be tried for abuses under the The Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000 (MEJA), 18 U.S.C. §§ 3261 - 3267. The full range of offenses and a detailed explanation of the crimes alledged have been committed by and with the complicity of the the Defense Secretary are laid out in a civil suit filed by Human Rights Now and the American Civil Liberties Union. See, the Amended Complaint of January 5, 2006, http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06105-etn-rums-complaint.pdf

It is now clear, after "THE MEMO", and the filing of the suit against Rumsfeld, that U.S. officials have committed offenses in Iraq and at secret torture chambers around the world, as well as other crimes against humanity, and they face either a trial in federal court or by international tribunal. One or the other of these eventualities cannot be prevented except by force.

It is only a question of whether the U.S. courts or an international tribunal try and convict them. It would be better for all parties if America does this ourselves.

Mark G. Levey, 2006



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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yup. They are scared witless.
Dozens in the White House, the Congress, the military, and the Supreme Court are facing serious penalties, once the game is up. They will do everything they can think of to prevent that.
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DarleenMB Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. No they aren't.
They are ABOVE the law. I mean it's *'s government after all.

No. They are not even worried. They will go their way content in the knowledge they will get away with everything.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. That's called hubris. I bet they have wild mood swings between fear and
hubris.
I bet the mood swings are so wild they require pharmaceuticals. And alcohol.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. On the other hand, to make it work
they're going to have to rely on disaffected and disenchanted American troops currently fighting halfway around the world.

Good luck with that, folks.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Private security companies, coming to a town near you
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 01:13 PM by havocmom
Just saw an ad for ITT Tech the other day. Not pushing computer courses of even vet assistant, but studies for 'careers in law enforcement'.

I used to be comforted by the likelihood that US troops would be as disinclined to fire on crowds of their mothers and grandmothers as former Soviet troops were. Now, thinking there is a reason our troops are far away and companies hiring mercs.

Any population will have a percentage of control freaks and sadist wannabees who will gravitate toward positions offering some authority over their fellow citizens. There are plenty of people wanting a uniform who can't pass most police department psych evaluations. Look for them to suddenly find their niche.

The Nazis understood some people will do anything to others to get approval from father figures and/or get the fix for their hunger for a little power themselves.

It can happen again. Human nature hasn't changed much. There are still some weak, borderline evil people out there. And we know there are genuinely evil people who will exploit them for their purposes.

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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It would be a bloodbath...
these idiots would get carried away and piss off the wrong people. They start dragging people out of neighborhoods like mine, and it'll make the L.A. riots look like a World Can't Wait protest. You can't take a bunch of half-trained power junkies and fuck with Americans. There are large segments of the population who would never tolerate it.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Pretty much what happened in Germany. More will just watch
than we would like. More will just watch until the brown shirts come for them too.

The guys in charge let the goons have their way with bystanders to keep them loyal. What's a little collateral loss when millions are killed on purpose? If some of the goons go down too, who cares? Not the guys in the bunkers, that's for sure.

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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Ah, but wouldn't that disrupt "business?"
I'm not sure something like that wouldn't be violently opposed to anything that might disrupt the everyday workings of our economy.

And America isn't Germany. Our democratic history is much longer than theirs was at the time.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. As they are throwing US workers out of jobs very fast
I would guess they are not counting much on business in the US.

The middle class is going exticnt. All but the top 2% will be losing ground so fast they won't be a market pretty soon.

What business? They want to pay Third World wages and will keep beating us until we beg for that.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It's a disastrous policy...
I just don't think they're savvy enough to figure it out.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. i believe you are right ..more will watch..we talk a good game but
Edited on Sat Feb-25-06 11:57 AM by flyarm
i believe alot of Americans are hot air...my example..

hubby and i lived in Kansas ..for some time...and one weekend morning i looked out our front window and saw a neigbor 6'4"..beating one of his twin boys on his driveway..with a tennis racket....i screamed..and my husband came running and i said go stop him...my husband without skipping a beat ran out the door and ran across two neighbors yards and got to this man and pulled him off this 6 yr old child...my huband did a body block and knocked this guy into the lawn...the guy still had the tennis racket in his hand ..my husband held the guy down ..and then decked him...then my husband got up and broke the tennis racket and then grabbed the child and brought him home to our house..until the mans wife returned home..

i later found out ..because it was the talk of the neighborhood that so many people were watching out their windows..they joked and said wow..i won't mess with your husband..and there were all kinds of remarks...

and my reply was..wtf..you were watching him beat that child and you did nothing??? you sat in your fucking houses looking out the window hearing that child scream for help and you did nothing???

i knew right away i had to get out of kansas...
we had the police come and the man was removed from the home..for 2 weeks..as the law stated..but sure enough not one neighbor went to court to say what they saw..not one...except my husband and i...

the man who beat his child was a lawyer..and his wife shortly thereafter filed for divorce...
not one neighbor then came forward when this man manipulated the law..except again my husband and i...

and yes that man got custody of his 5 children!

we moved shortly after..i could not stay in that enviornment...

and yes all the neighbors said they were religous..all born agains...

this man never went to church with his 5 kids his wife always took them,..and the Monsignor was told about the abuse and allowed this man to serve at the alter knowing full well about the abuse this man did to his children...

i walked out of church one morning when i saw him at the alter and i screamed abuser all the way out of church..i have not walked into a catholic church since.

so i do not have the faith in other americans as i once may have...in fact i think most Americans are all hot air!..brave at running their mouths..but no substance!

fly
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. I am definitely concerned about people who applied for
positions in law enforcement using traditional avenues and were turned down because of their psyche eval. They are ripe for exploitation. I know one personally (brother of a friend) and it would not be a pretty situation.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
50. You HAVE heard of Kent and Jackson State U's, no?
What "reluctance"?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. One renagade squad does not an Army make
And they weren't faceing off with their moms and grannies.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cheney's sneer is Cagney or Robinson in an old movie...
You'll never take me alive, copper!

Difference being, unlike a Cagney or Robinson character, Cheney is not gonna be the one to actually face a hail of bullets by defiantly rushing out of his rat hole. Cheney NEVER takes the consequences for his actions. He always has other priorities.

Yep, there is too much at stake and they will not go peacefully no matter what we have on them.

MIHOP and Martial Law when they get really cornered. The whole world will pay the band while Cheney continues to enjoy the music. He doesn't like people. Why would millions of deaths be a negative to him if it allows him to save himself?
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No, it's more like another gangster line:
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 01:00 PM by Canuckistanian
"Sure, copper, I did it! But you'll never pin the rap on ME."

They think they think they're protected by a sort of God-like immunity. That's why Gonzales was installed. He whispers all the sweet little nothings into their ear like "anything you want to do is legal".
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. For some reason "Bowling" comes to mind.
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 01:11 PM by ClayZ
By insulating themselves with more crooks,
they are just a bigger bunch of crooks.
If you liken their downfall to bowling...




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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. leveymg this is great information...
I am going to book mark this information.

I agree with you that "they are playing for keeps" because they know if they are kicked out they will be prosecuted!!

That is why I believe they will attempt to turn what military forces that are left in the US on the American populace.

They are classifying more and more documents, with their history we can pretty much be assured they are destroying documents and evidence.

Dentention centers on US soil....the list goes on....

Do you think that is possible that a civil war within the US can occur? Is this the only way that we will be able to remove this "self proclaimed king"?

or

Do you think that a war with Iran will allow his removal?

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. I don't think they will be prosecuted.
Even if we get Dems elected (which seems likely) it's going to end up being middle of the road Dems who can safely get through the political weeding out process.

Nobody who's been able to get enough corporate money media support to win is going to prosecute the Bush administration for their crimes.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. I think an Iran War is their last desperate line of defense, but the Joint
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 01:50 PM by leveymg
Chiefs and the CIA aren't going to go along with it to the point of the outbreak of actual hostilities. Everyone knows that an attack on Iran would immediately escalate into an uncontrollable general regional war with huge casualties. A lose-lose proposition that's detrimental to U.S. interests.

The job of the Generals is to win wars and avoid those that can't be won. I think they'll do their job this time, even if it means unleashing Fitz to issue indictments for the whole WHIG-OSP network, and backing up the prosecution with overwhelming force if necessary.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. In many ways there is much more at stake in the next election
than there were in the last two. I suspect there will be trouble, perhaps they do to, hence the crack down on civil liberties.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I fear we have only seen the tip of the iceberg....
of the criminal activities this * cabal has been involved in.

There will be trouble.....I gotta a feeling that the marches and protests in the 60's and 70's will pare in comparrison...
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. They have been so crooked for so long...
and have gotten worse, on account of the total lack of oversight. If either the Senate or the House (hopefully both) come under Democratic control in this year's elections, it will be like opening a giant Pandora's box.

Your points concerning torture are well taken, but their corruption has manifested its self in other areas, and is waiting to be detected if the lid ever blows off.

Congratulations on an excellent contribution.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Could a Ford-like pardon for an entire administration's evil be given
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 01:12 PM by EVDebs
even as a so-called 'olive branch' ? I personally wouldn't give it, and especially in light of how the lower level is always left to field the charges that higherups should have faced.

The public must eventually teach accountability to this crowd. We've endured six years out of this long march; two more to go. This year, if Congress goes with a Democratic majority...

Democrats, the merciful and compassionate ! Malice toward none, charity toward all. Which gets the ball over the goalline for us quicker ? I say make examples of the highest who brought this all on us. Evil can't be overlooked, but you can't try everyone.

What are the limitations of Presidential pardon powers, anyway ?


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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
46. Yes - and No - and it doesn't matter really
First yes, sure pardons can be given to everyone. They may well be already written; dated 12/24/08. Or they could be promised and provided as an inducement to avoid long, public, damaging (as in "eats into the TV profits") impeachement proceedings.

But no, you can't pardon war criminals. In fact it could be considered an int'l crime to do so; accessory after the fact. And you can't pardon in exchange for something. That's just obstruction of justice. Which is where I must take issue with your post.

Because, yes we can try everyone. And everyone includes Poppy Bush for his criminal pardons of his Iran/contra co-conspirators. Full accountability must be demanded for our own sakes. We must purge any legacy of this never-legitimate, criminal regime. That includes reversing every law and edict, unseating all appointments (regardless of the appointee's culpability/innocence), and prosecuting to the fullest extent all perpetrators and negligent-enablers.

We must do it to cleanse and restore the National Soul of our (once-great) nation.

We have no other moral, patriotic option.

--
www.january6th.org
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. They wouldn't care about international crimes
If they were pardoned by Bush, they will just claim a bunch of leftist surrender monkeys in France have a grudge against them...

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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Which is why we've stopped caring about what they care about...
...or not.

That is in fact the essence of our problem/task.

We must reprogram, first our friends and "leaders," then the euphemedia, and ultimately, as a consequence, our nation back to reality, morality, and (self)respectability.

It is not a difficult, or even necessarily time-consuming, task. We have the facts and the law on our side and simply need to keep pounding them.

They can only pound the table. And in the end, salt.

--
www.january6th.org
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Democrats could change the world with this one idea
Start talking about the Bush Administration crimes against humanity...that they will do anything to stay in power because they are afraid of being tried and convicted in the world court. That the American people have now turned against them, and that Republicans are so desperate that they may resort to widespread election theft.

This is called framing the debate. Say it. Back it. Don't back away. Talk about them like the criminals and terrorists they are.

Of course the Dems wouldn't do this because they are too complicit.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. "It's Tribunal time in the United States of America."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5299745

And, if you do an advanced search on "understandinglife" and "tribunal time" in GD over the past 8 months, you'll find just how much I agree with you.

One of those posts is entitled "Dear Gov. Dean -- On Passing the "Nuremberg chalice" …"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5568226

As you indicate, Bush, Cheney and all their neoconster minions and Congressional, Judicial, and military enablers know that if they lose power they will drink from that "chalice."


Peace.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. If they can succeed in getting a Republican elected president, he could
grant them a pardon like was done with Nixon.

Or--- in early 2008 bush could resign, making Cheney president. Cheney could pardon bush. They could then appoint their heir apparent vice president. Then Cheney could resign making the new vice president president. That way that person could pardon Cheney, then run for president as an incumbent. Or Cheney could serve out the last months as president and the new Veep could run for president.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Pardons aren't recognized under the Torture Convention
Here's the alternative title, "WHY PARDONS WON'T MATTER: The Torture Convention"
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Good. Can they refuse extradition?
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. If they refuse extradition the UAE will let swat teams in the ports
to bring them out to justice? Just a thought.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. They might already be here.
:tinfoilhat:
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. Presidential pardon power is Constitutional ...and virtually unlimited
And the US Constitution trumps any international torture act (also recall the US has NOT signed on to the 1998 version of the International Criminal court). The presidential power to pardon is granted under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution.

"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

No standards, and only one limitation -- no pardons for the impeached.

In this case, Bush could resign prior to impeachment, a 'la Nixon with Gerald Ford.

Its actually gratifying (to me at least) that they CAN pardon themselves. This might leave them slightly more inclined to cede power peaceably.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. K & R. When 9/11 happened I kept thinking "They are shooting the moon"
over and over again. And this was before I'd ever heard of PNAC.
NOTHING has happened since to chase that idea from my mind, EVERYTHING they have done has reinforced it.
:dem:
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Ain't gonna happen...
It didn't happen with Vietnam. It didn;t happen with Watergate. It didn;t happen with Chile and Kissinger. And it didn't happen with Iran-Contra.

Bush and his gang will not be prosecuted by anyone outside of mock trials conducted by human rights and anti-war groups.

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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Right and they know they can get away with it.
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The Sleeper Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. The NeoCons aren't going anywhere...
they've just about got everything set up, after 30+ years of work. Why leave now ? It won't take that much anyway to get another one of their own "elected", especially with the media in their pocket. Look at how unbelieveably moronic the Chimp looked vs. Kerry in the debates, yet who is sitting in the Oval Office ? Without a doubt one of the NeoCon mafia will be the republican candidate in 08.
As for moving to martial law, the trick is to make it seem that nothing has changed...No brownshirts on every corner, and our "democracy" and "Freedoms" are as strong as ever. Since these clowns don't obey any laws anyway, they don't really need to formally change anything to have complete dictatorial control, do they ?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. That was their plan during Reagan
and Bush I and Clinton won the election. They are going down with a thud. Hopefully they will be tried for treason and dealt with - all of them. Then this planet will have to sit down and discuss humanity and start with outlawing all nuclear weapons everywhere.
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StefanX Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is what I've always believed
Not only have Bush and Cheney benefitted politically and finanicially like true Mafiosos from sowing insecurity and then running a phony protection racket -- they've also broken lots of laws, some of which might turn out to carry the death penalty. They NEED a crisis in order to avoid getting their asses hauled before some War Crimes tribunals in The Hague -- and you can be damn sure they're quite aware of this, looking at the way they're lawyered up to the hilt with ass-kissers rewriting the laws in a desperate attempt to build some sort of pre-emptive defense.

They are weak, craven, corrupt poseurs who would think nothing of taking down a few million Americans if it was the only get-out-of-jail -free card they could think up.

I think it's time to start speaking "power to nonsense" instead of just truth to power.

It's time to start talking about what kind of amnesty or conditions we're thinking of offering these criminals. Think the "Truth Commission" that was set up in South Africa after the end of apartheid.

Now, that would be a hell of a good example of "framing"!

"We The People are willing to offer Bush and Cheney immunity if they talk."

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
45. No immunity. Indictments, convictions and reparations. Punitive damages.
Some of their lesser minions may get immunity if they're the first to talk.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. I wonder if Dubai has an extradition treaty
or, for that matter, the UAE and Saudi Arabia.
Or the Cayman Islands. They may have their own little dated community prepared for a secret retirement home somewhere.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. We can hope!


Cheney can shoot all the birds bu$h flushes out while "clearing brush".

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. So, prosecute them, already.
They have committed numerous crimes. Charge them, try them, convict and sentence them. I am sick to death of criminals being in charge of this nation and her resources. It's insane!

:rant:
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. thanks Mark I have this and Pat_K's page bookmarked as required
reading, I would be lost without you guys.:headbang:
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StefanX Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is really the whole quandary, the whole raison d'etre of DU
Criminals hijacked our government -- and we all ran to this website where we could talk about what to do about this disaster.

This isn't about politics anymore -- this is about a cabal of criminals who have hijacked the American political system.

And what we're going to to about it.

That's the REAL cognitive dissonance that we on the left have -- we are sitting here like frogs in a pot in the stove while the water gets warmer, wondering if this really could be happening.

We see our government striking down the Constitution, striking down international treaties, locking people up and spying on them illegally, replacing our Army with their paid mercenaries -- and for a while, a lot of us are too shocked to really know what to do about it beyond posting here.

We're going to eventually need a two-pronged approach -- we need the media provided by sites like DU (so people will know what's going on and support what's right), but we're also going to need much more "organizing" as well.

This isn't just politics as usual. This is a coup. What are we going to do about it?

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staticstopper Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. yep
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 10:48 PM by staticstopper
what are we gonna do about it?

Well, we cannot do it w/o conservatives, that's why they strive to make us hate each other.

We have all read this: "ALL REPUGS ARE EVIL DUMB AND HATEFUL" maybe they are but saying that really change them?

They learned from the 60's not to let liberals have effective leaders.

We will not get a good set of leaders - THEY WILL BE SWIFTBOATED!!!

or worse like Wellstone....he was my hope at that moment.

so I came up with an idea, it won't cost money, we won't have to fire them in Congress,
all it takes is people on the web and through free media.
I think average people are hungrey for something that won't label them:



New Temporary Political Party


Here is the platform:

To bring to a stop all social wedge issues that currently distract the American people. No pro or con legislation written nor debated by our national Senators and Reps. (if they would bother, it would be nice to quickly make it illegal to spy without notice) and insist that they work to accomplish the following two goals.

The Two Goals

We must, on a national level, fix 2 huge problems, 1) protecting our lands and atmosphere as much as possible and implement a non-military system to rescue victims of further hurricanes, large violent attacks and droughts, 2) stop the deaths of our soldiers, contract workers, and the deaths of so-called “collateral damage victims” by badly planned foreign policy.

WalkerRenterBusRider's diary :: ::
Social wedge issues are now used, (wittingly or unwittingly), by certain powerful people in both major parties to keep their jobs in politics alive or from a learned misguided cart before the horse thing...while America withers. I do not judge their deeper motives.

If they keep doing all this busy work, using America's concerns to hack away at each other's branches, our sword of liberty will continue to dull.

This MUST stop. The existing laws are enough to protect human safety when implemented fairly.

We will not seek to undermine any party, like Republican, Democrat, Green, Independent nor Libertarian.

This new temporary party will work to bring the average people of both (or all) party affiliations together to stop this ongoing madness.

If this work gets done than we will begin to move outward to other issues. And there will be a natural absorption back into the 2 major party system and each will regain their once respectable standing.

And if these two issues are not dealt with post-haste then I believe there is not much hope for a conservative or liberal to sway opinions on any domestic issues. America will be a shadow of its former self.

We will not take donations or monies of any kind. If we cannot do this without a budget, our freedoms may already be gone.



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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. They will be dealt with
sooner or later.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. This is why I repeatedly cite need for Truth & Reconciliation Hearings
frankly, while some must needs face prison, most should be forced to admit what they did in public.

Total capitulation simply doesn't work in the long run.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
35. If they pardon themselves, and don't travel internationally
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 02:43 PM by smoogatz
I think they'd be reasonably safe from prosecution. I can't imagine any administration--Dem or Repuke--agreeing to extradite a former Pres or VP to the World Court. And there won't be any "truth commissions" or other such silliness in the US--the Washington establishment thinks the whole Bush/Cheney/Rove cabal are just remarkably effective players of the crooked power game that is DC politics. Lousy administrators, but admirably ruthless politicians--that's how the DLC power-brokers view them. And the conciliatory, capitulating, corporate-owned center-right politicians/consultants of the DLC, unfortunately, are the power center (money center) of the Democratic "opposition." This ain't no coup, as far as the inside-the-beltway crowd are concerned--it's just politics as usual. I mean seriously--when Kennedy was assassinated, a coup d'etat had clearly transpired. There was an obvious conspiracy, whitewashed by a cockamamie "official explanation" that explained nothing. But no one wanted to hear the truth--that their elected President had been murdered by a gang of thugs, and replaced with one more to the liking of the military/industrial power structure that really runs this country.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. To the Hague, he has no strategic intelligence value. n/t
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schrodingers_cat Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. Hey! I know - they could escape to South America like the Nazis did!
Errrrr...wait a minute...........
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
42. Great work
and thanks for the New Yorker link, leveymg.

The scope of the crimes is immense.

Rec'd.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
49. morning k&r
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-25-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
53. if push comes to shove...
....and they think they'll use hired troops against citizens, they'll have to disarm the citizenry first. That's the canary in the gold mine. Most Americans won't fall for that or submit willingly.
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