Lawrence O'Donnell - The Last Word - Ignorant Dangerous Action by Wisconsin Conservatives

[onehandle]

Run time: 08:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boyNxv1XGsE   Posted on YouTube: May 28, 2011 By YouTube Member: onehandle Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: May 28, 2011 By DU Member: onehandle Views on DU: 11590

 

[crim son]

1. Yeah, so?

:sarcasm:

[dorksied]

2. I find it funny that these people claim to value human life, and prove it by taking human life.

We need to stop these crazy people.

[demwing]

3. The Universe tends to unfold as it should

Lang thought he wasn't 100% in sync with God, but God seemed to have a clear handle on what Lang was up to. If that gun hadn't accidentally fired, people would have died.

Call that misfire intervention, call it fate, call it random, call it karma, call it ignorance.

I call it a damn good thing, and toast the Universe in its wisdom.

[canuckledragger]

4. there's a reason that these laws are being pushed by conservatives..

quite simply they are trolling to for assassins.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/14/936300/-Trolling-for-Assassins:-MRFF-Confronts-Slurs,-Becking,-and-More-Explicit-Threats

interesting snip from the article I found:

Stochastic terrorism is the use of mass communications to stir up random lone wolves to carry out violent or terrorist acts that are statistically predictable but individually unpredictable. . . . The person who actually plants the bomb or assassinates the public official is not the stochastic terrorist, they are the "missile" set in motion by the stochastic terrorist. The stochastic terrorist is the person who uses mass media as their means of setting those "missiles" in motion.

Here's the mechanism spelled out concisely:

The stochastic terrorist is the person who uses mass media to broadcast memes that incite unstable people to commit violent acts.

One or more unstable people responds to the incitement by becoming a lone wolf and committing a violent act.

[The Nexus]

6. k&r

:toast:

[KansDem]

55. "Scott Roeder" comes to mind...

He was the "missile," and Bill O'Reilly was the "Stochastic Terrorist."

[Thornleylv]

5. Wisconsin must be the worst state in U.S.

They are torching the earth.

[The Nexus]

7. I thought it was either AZ or TX. nt

[Merlot]

8. It's not the state of Wisconsin, it's the repubs

The state has multiple recall elections in the works.

[Dawgs]

12. If the people are too stupid to continue putting Republicans in charge then it's the peoples fault.

They don't get to make these laws without first getting elected.

[russspeakeasy]

15. Many of them were elected by 2% margins..so everyone in Wisconsin

is stupid? Come on Dawgs you know better than that.

[kimsarah]

19. How reliable

are the voting machines there?

[Welibs]

21. Nazis and fascists don't broadcast their agenda. They wait until they are elected and

then show their true colours. Voters didn't vote for THIS. They were duped of course and once Republicans got to their stations in January '11 they mutated into dictators.

[geckosfeet]

24. I would disagree. There is a difference between being duped and willfully ignorant.

History has demonstrated the republican/corporate agenda over and over again.

People were not 'duped'. They buried their heads in the sand.

That said, the voting process seems to have been questionable.

[gejohnston]

9. So if Wisconsin decides to go along with 48 other states

in their gun policy. So what? It is not like they are adopting Vermont's no permit for anything. Which works them. It reminds me of the Ohio hysteria when all they were doing was making their rules similar to 42 other states. My question is what does concealed carry have to do with Ralph Lang?
I was OK with O'Donnell's arrogance for awhile. On this his condescension, fear, and misdirection on a subject in is misinformed on or being dishonest about is beyond tiresome. It is wrong when the right does it, it is equally wrong when our side does it.

[Bacchus39]

17. agree with you, and it was never said if he had a permit for the gun

what difference would a requirement to have a permit for a concealed weapon make to such a person??

[Red Knight]

20. I agree

Handguns should be banned completely. They're only good for killing humans.

I know, I know...then only criminals will have guns. But those laws should be strengthened and enforced with tough penalties. You get caught with a gun you go to jail--for a long time. Period.

[gejohnston]

25. respectfully disagree for two reasons

all of my handguns must be defective, because they have never been used to kill a human. Since I gave up hunting a long time ago, they punch holes in paper. When I did hunt, growing up in a very rural area, the small game I hunted as a kid with a revolver helped feed the family on my mom's meager wage.
As for laws, current federal gun laws are rarely enforced or prosecuted. Even ones that has been on the books since the 1930s. Local DAs plead them away. Usually things like felon in possession. It should be mandatory that all federal gun crimes go to federal court. That is one area both Brady Campaign and the NRA agree.
Gun bans never reduced murder rates. Other violent crime like home invasions have increased afterward in some places. Besides all of the countries that have higher murder rates have stricter gun laws than us or Europe. All of us yahoos out in the sticks know that. Being scapegoated for urban problems does not play well outside of a few large cities. That causes people to vote Republican, which prevents real workable solutions.

[TPaine7]

10. Isn't there a forum for this?

Has a pro-gun rights post ever made it to the front page?

[baldguy]

11. K&R for Lawrence telling the truth.

[gejohnston]

13. yeah about as honest as RM's plastic gun canard.

[baldguy]

14. So, you support terrorists who want to get guns & carry them around

to fulfill their plans for committing mass murder?

Good to know where the gun "enthusiasts" are coming from.

[gejohnston]

16. Mr. Straw man

How did you come to that conclusion? No I am not for terrorists getting anything other long jail sentences or bullets inserted in them. Do you seriously think that Lang got a Kansas CCW? I simply asked what Wisconsin allowing licensed concealed carry had to with Lang. Since Vermont has the laxest gun laws in the country, does that mean Howard Dean promoted terrorism because he did not try to pass any gun control in a state that never had any? You won't answer that. You will reply with another straw man or some other absurd claim.
The Plastic gun existed only in a Mel Gibson movie that gave Glock product placement. Congress decided to ban something that does not exist, can not exist with current technology. The BATFE directer and every firearms expert told congress the same thing. Next, you are going to tell me that the ATF is in the NRA's pocket. RM knows that as well as I do. She continues to spread it.
Where did I say that I support terrorism? All I said was that LO either did not know what he was talking about or was intellectually dishonest. How you turned that into pro terrorist is beyond me, so please explain it to me.

[baldguy]

29. I think someone didn't watch the video.

Lawrence isn't talking about Kansas, Vermont, or plastic guns. He is talking about a terrorist getting & carrying guns legally under NRA-backed & GOP-supported Wisconsin laws - which you apparently support as well.

Who's the straw man here?

[MikeMc]

43. + 1, Nt

[PavePusher]

32. Your accusations are filthy and vile.

Provide evidence or retract your statement.

[baldguy]

33. They are less so than accusations that Dem gun control advocates are liars, fools, racists or Nazis.

[kimsarah]

18. Next thing you know

they'll outlaw bullet-proof vests. Does anyone know if Wisconsin allows guns in the Legislature during sessions?

[PavePusher]

22. Lo-Do is a condescending, patronizing, holier-than-thou, fatuous fat-head....

whose ignorance about firearms and firearms law is stunningly breathtaking.

He has no credibility on this subject and his opinion is meritless, absurd and his authoritarian proclivities are vile in the extreme.

[perdita9]

23. In the US, crazy people have easy access to guns

THAT was the point of Mr. O'Donnell's essay. If you'd been paying attention, you would have realized that.

[gejohnston]

26. That is true everywhere. The only difference is that in the US

sane, law abiding who are not part of the wealthy elite also have easy access to guns for the most part.

[PavePusher]

30. No, it was not.

Perhaps you should "pay attention".

[perdita9]

34. I do pay attention...

...every time a child is shot in this country. Or some idiot shoots up a YMCA in an effort to 'teach his girlfriend a lesson'. If you were paying attention, you'd see the gun violence in this country is out of control.

Do I want to take your hunting rifle away? No.

Do I want to put limits on people getting access to assault guns with 30 shot capacity clips? Yes, I do.

[baldguy]

36. For some the problem with gun violence is that there isn't enough of it.

That's the attitude - so often displayed in DU's gungeon - we're fighting against.

[PavePusher]

37. "assault guns"

You don't even know what that is.

[benEzra]

38. And there's a big part of your misunderstanding.

Do I want to take your hunting rifle away? No.

Do I want to put limits on people getting access to assault guns with 30 shot capacity clips? Yes, I do.

And there's a big part of your misunderstanding. The overwhelming majority of lawful gun owners in this country are nonhunters.

You're not proposing to ban fringe guns; you're proposing to outlaw the most popular civilian rifles in the United States, including the one I shoot competitively with. I don't own a hunting rifle; neither do most gun owners.

And I'd be very interested in hearing your rational basis for a ban on rifle handgrips and magazines, given that rifles are the least misused of all weapons.

Don't take my word for it; check the FBI data yourself (go to the link below, download the data in Excel, and sum the columns).

FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2009, Table 20, Murder by State and Type of Weapon

Total murders...........................13,636.....100.00%
Handguns.................................6,452......47.32%
Firearms (type unknown)..................1,928......14.14%
Other weapons (non-firearm, non-edged)...1,864......13.67%
Edged weapons............................1,825......13.38%
Hands, feet, etc...........................801.......5.87%
Shotguns...................................418.......3.07%
Rifles.....................................348.......2.55%

Rifles aren't a significant violence problem in the United States and never have been, though you'd never know it from the corporate media. Fear sells, after all.

[baldguy]

41. Not many people were killed by nuclear weapons last year either - too few to count really.

We still don't let anyone build one in their basement.

[benEzra]

42. Except that "assault weapons" dominate the civilian rifle market, and they're STILL not a problem.

Besides, the last time I checked, my rifle makes sub-quarter-inch holes in things, and can deliver about 2 kJ of energy to a small target with a precision of about 1 arcminute. A W88 warhead makes half-mile-wide holes in things, and indiscriminately delivers about 1,987,400,000,000 kJ to a city-sized target.

If you can't tell the difference between a thermonuclear warhead and a .22 caliber civilian rifle, then you might be a gun control activist. :hi:

FWIW, the line between civilian small arms and nukes is drawn at .51 caliber small arms and automatic fire. Non-automatic centerfire .22's like the AR-15 fall well on the civilian side of that line, but you knew that.

[MikeMc]

44. You will NEVER achieve parity with the gov., in firepower terms.

You starry-eyed dreamer, you. No one will sell you a weapon that will allow you to compete with our armed forces, on the field, in a stand up fight. Go get a weapon off the black market. The bad guys know you have it before you get back to your base, ben. That mobster you bought the machine gun and rocket launcher off of, he already ratted you out. Please stop talking about muzzle velocity and impact, 'cause you're obviously an anti-fascist who knows about weapons. You may be well versed and armed, but I call bull shit.

Hey what is kJ anyhow? Kilo Joules? Inquiring minds want to know.

22 cal used to go through law-enforcements vests. It's the CIA's weapon of choice in assasinations, while the mob used 38's. I heard that a cross-bow bolt defeats the jack-booted thugs (from the census bureau, IRS, DEA, blah-blah-blah).

I also heard a vicious rumor that our troops were not allowed to deploy loaded M-16's, according to the Geneva Convention, because it was an unstable high-velocity round that would kill any innocent civilian if it hit them. It tumbles at high-velocity. A whisper of a breeze sets it off course to cause heart-ache among the living, and the dead. Hence our troops were the sitting ducks that got blown away, under the repugs' heroic leader in Lebanon, in the '80's. (Saint Ronnie Reagan is the Heroic leader, I ought ta say.)


Good luck and God bless to you, ben-Ami.

[PavePusher]

46. We don't have an absolute need for parity....

though it would be nice and make things easier should the worst ever come to pass.

"Quantity has a quality all its' own." Stalin, IIRC, or one of his minions. And though he was a whirling sonufabitch, he got that one dead on.

[benEzra]

47. Ummm, what? I'm not following your argument here.

You starry-eyed dreamer, you. No one will sell you a weapon that will allow you to compete with our armed forces, on the field, in a stand up fight.

Ummm, what?

Dude, I'm a competitive shooter (USPSA/IPSC) and civilian gun owner. I'm a technical writer by trade (aviation industry), I own and shoot a civilian carbine in .223 Remington and a Smith & Wesson 9mm that onehandle wants to outlaw, and I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please clarify.

My point was that fearmongering about civilian rifles with handgrips that stick out is silly (rifles are the least misused of all weapons in the United States), and equating private rifle ownership to private nuclear weapon ownership is just silly. Portraying a civilian centerfire .22 as a WMD renders the term WMD meaningless.

That mobster you bought the machine gun and rocket launcher off of, he already ratted you out. Please stop talking about muzzle velocity and impact, 'cause you're obviously an anti-fascist who knows about weapons. You may be well versed and armed, but I call bull shit.

Again, please explain what point you are driving at, because I am not following your argument here.

Hey what is kJ anyhow? Kilo Joules? Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes, kilojoules. And I rounded up; .223 Remington has only 1.5 to 1.6 kJ (1100-1200 ft-lb) out of a 16" carbine barrel, roughly half as powerful as a typical deer rifle (3 to 4 kJ) if you need a point of reference.

22 cal used to go through law-enforcements vests. It's the CIA's weapon of choice in assasinations, while the mob used 38's. I heard that a cross-bow bolt defeats the jack-booted thugs (from the census bureau, IRS, DEA, blah-blah-blah).

WTF times 3. I'm still not following your logic here, unless there is some epidemic of .22LR and crossbow murders of LEO's that I'm not aware of.

I also heard a vicious rumor that our troops were not allowed to deploy loaded M-16's, according to the Geneva Convention, because it was an unstable high-velocity round that would kill any innocent civilian if it hit them. It tumbles at high-velocity. A whisper of a breeze sets it off course to cause heart-ache among the living, and the dead. Hence our troops were the sitting ducks that got blown away, under the repugs' heroic leader in Lebanon, in the '80's. (Saint Ronnie Reagan is the Heroic leader, I ought ta say.)

U.S. rules of engagement have required unloaded chambers (or at times unloaded chambers and magazines) for various political reasons at various times, none of which had anything to do with 5.56x45mm/.223 Remington. It handles wind fine, it just doesn't carry as much momentum or energy downrange due to the considerably smaller and lighter bullet.

And I agree with you that the Reagan administration's requiring Marines to stand guard with unloaded guns in a threat zone was asinine, though I'm not sure what they were armed with.

[MikeMc]

52. ben Ez, I'm not trying to impugn you as a good Democrat, honest.

People that start talking to me about kJ, muzzle velocity, wind speed, etc., are much more proficient and technological than I am.

I'm sure I haven't fired a round off ever, in anger or practice, and have absolutely no way to debate you on the physics of the issue. I swear. Sure, I'm stupid, and so sorry, also.

Also, it was surely stupid, in foreign policy terms, for the repugs to 'lose' 190,000 AK 47's and handguns in Iraq, under the leadership of l'il George. We had < 145 k troops in-country (Iraq) at the time. I just wonder where they purchased the Kalashnikovs, and what repug made the money on the pass-through procurement contract.

Selling weapons to the Iranian terrorists in Lebanon might not have been the brightest idea, in foreign policy terms, 'cos those guys blew up our Marines in several high-profile attacks, right before the repugs' Saint Ronnie pulled out and invaded Grenada.

I'm unable to convert the 1.6 kJ & 1200 ft lb stat into the metric 5.6x45 mm. I can't answer your last statement definitively, but I think that Reagan's Marines in Lebanon were well armed with harsh language. Poor guys. Their service slogan is "First to Die. Last to Know Why".

[MikeMc]

63. DU dum dums.......NT.

[MikeMc]

69. Har. Har. Nt.

[MikeMc]

62. Hey, I'd be willing to bet that yinz (you all, I mean) talk to benEz. Dumm Dums. Nt.

[bowens43]

65. It is insane

to allow anyone to carry a concealed weapon. It is insane to allow ANYONE to own a handgun.

All you need to do is look at the statistics....they speak for themselves. More guns, more deaths. Period.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

27. Crazy enough not to stand trial

but still be able to purchase weapons and ammo. That says it all.

K&R

[MikeMc]

57. Crazy Crazy for being so lonely ... -- Patsy Kline [NT}

On edit: } to ].

[gtar100]

28. This sounds like a plea for sane gun control laws.

But, unfortunately, too many people in the US are willfully blind to the consequences of allowing such easy access.

[PavePusher]

31. What do you consider to be "sane gun control laws"? Specifics, please. n/t

[perdita9]

35. Sane gun laws

You have to register your guns the same way you register your car.

If your guns are used in the commission of a crime, you have to explain how you lost track of them because they were YOUR guns and shouldn't have wound up in the hands of criminals.

If you're on the terrorist watch list, you can't buy a gun. (In this country, people on the terrorist watch list can't get on a plane but they can buy as many guns as they want).

A waiting period to make sure you're checked out properly for warrents, arrest records, mental health violations, etc.

These are not unreasonable requests. Republicans make women jump through a heck of a lot more hoops to have an abortion.

[benEzra]

39. How would you feel about barring people on the Bush terrah blacklists

from working at schools, airports, sports stadiums, hospitals, and banks? Should they be allowed to fly airplanes, drive forty thousand pounds of gasoline through your local city, buy fertilizer and diesel fuel, teach at mosques, or adopt children?

Here's the problem: These aren't lists of "known or suspected terrorists"; that description is a Bushism, and a false one at that. They are lists of people who got put on a list for some reason---traveling out of the country, or innocently attending certain mosques, or protesting the Iraq war, or getting involved in the environmental movement, or looking perturbed at a TSA agent, or simply to meet someone's daily quota of new names. Senator Edward Kennedy was on the "no fly" list for a while, and it took a personal phone call to the head of DHS to get him off it. There are a few names on the list who are legitimate suspects, but they are known as such from other sources, not from the terrah blacklists.

Here's a primer on the Bush blacklists from the ACLU, for those who have forgotten why progressives thought they were such a bad idea at the time. They haven't changed.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/us-government-no-fly-list-unconstitutional-and-ineffective

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/unlikely-suspects

And some disturbing Bush-era articles, for those with very short memories:

No-fly blacklist snares political activists

Marshals: Innocent People Placed On 'Watch List' To Meet Quota

Infants on the Terrorist Watch List

And yes, "No Fly, No Buy" was a Bush administration proposal as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=416121&mesg_id=416741

[MikeMc]

45. If you will it, it is no dream -- Ted Herzl and Walt Sobchak. No Text.

[benEzra]

48. OK, I get the Big Lebowski reference, and the Herzl quote,

but I dunno what that has to do with expanding the secret Bush blacklists so that they void the Bill of Rights.

Denying people's rights because somebody put them on a secret blacklist was wrong when McCarthy did it, it was wrong when Nixon wanted to do it, and it was wrong when Bush II did it. We need to go the other way and repeal the Bush civil-liberties violations, not double down on them.

[MikeMc]

53. Not trying to cause you trouble, bE.

Your signature tag line by Ann Mc. prompted me to remember the Herzl and Sobchak quote. I don't want the idiot son's national security policies to continue unabated. He couldn't guard a whorehouse in New Orleans with a fistful of fifties, or a fistful of fifty cal ammo.

I am absolutely no fan of gun control, and one Dem hero of mine, Ted Kennedy, was on li'l bush's no-fly list.
Aprocryphally speaking, I heard from one of my gun-fan co-workers, that while he was Senator, Ted's bodyguards were wielding Uzis.
I never saw it, but just thought that he wasn't going down without a fight, unlike several of his siblings.

I guess I'm a fan of the movie, and Israel, and still don't favor 2nd Amendment issues as a primary means of accomplishing the goals espoused by people who oppose bush. Also, I back JStreet, but I'm just Catholic, unlike Walter. So that ties up the No-fly, Israel, Kennedy catholic, gun control issues that I posted to you, as a Dem. No offense meant, brother.

[PavePusher]

51. Can we apply those rules to all property and Civil Rights?

Or are they just for the ones you don't like?

[gtar100]

49. Can't think of any?

Let's start with: Close the gun show loop hole that allows people to buy guns without background checks.

Or how about limiting access to assault weapons or the size of ammo clips. Or are you planning on overthrowing a government anytime soon? If you are, keep in mind that it's the non-combatant civilians that suffer the most casualties in these "conflicts".

Then there's this thing about concealed weapons - limiting who can be approved.

More here: http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation

I would add that no individual, entity or corporation is allowed to profit from the sale or use of weapons. After all, it's money that drives the sale of guns, not some 2nd Amendment "need". I'm sure the NRA would love this one.

[baldguy]

50. The problem is people who are anti-gun control oppose ALL gun control measures.

They don't believe gun violence even exists. There is no gun show loophole. They're afraid that an assault weapon ban a limit on clip size would apply to their hunting rifle.

The type of weapon a person desires isn't an indication of actual need as much as it is a product of style (as in fashion) & advertising (as in propaganda) as anything else in American society. They'll never in their lifetime compete in Baja 1000, but they're happy to know that in their 2011 GMC Yukon Denali luxury SUV they'd be able to. Just as they really don't want or expect to overthrow the US govt either, but with their guns the govt actually fears them.

Yea, right.

They don't live in the same world as rational people do.

[benEzra]

54. Abject bullshit.

The problem is people who are anti-gun control oppose ALL gun control measures.

Abject bullshit. I am OK with reasonable gun control, e.g. the National Firearms Act of 1934, most of the Gun Control Act of 1968, the 1986 ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition, the ban on X-ray undetectable handguns, the point-of-sale background check for purchase, and the requirement of a shall-issue license in order to carry concealed.

I support the right of mentally competent adults with clean records to lawfully purchase, own, and use non-automatic, non-sound suppressed NFA Title 1 civilian small arms under .51 caliber, plus shotguns. That's not the same as "opposing ALL gun control measures."

They're afraid that an assault weapon ban a limit on clip size would apply to their hunting rifle.

More abject bullshit. The overwhelming majority of gun owners don't hunt, as you well know. A majority of us do own guns and magazines the gun control lobby wishes to ban.

My concern is that an "assault weapon ban" and a 19th-century limit on "clip" size would apply to my competition and HD rifles and full-sized Smith & Wesson 9mm, and they damn well would. You're talking about outlawing the most popular civilian target rifles in the United States, and banning magazines for the most popular rifles and most 9mm and .40 caliber pistols. No way.

The type of weapon a person desires isn't an indication of actual need as much as it is a product of style (as in fashion) & advertising (as in propaganda) as anything else in American society. They'll never in their lifetime compete in Baja 1000, but they're happy to know that in their 2011 GMC Yukon Denali luxury SUV they'd be able to. Just as they really don't want or expect to overthrow the US govt either, but with their guns the govt actually fears them.

Snort. You think that's why I shoot a non-automatic centerfire .22, a Smith & Wesson Lady Smith 9mm, and an old 5906?

[MikeMc]

56. Starry eyed dreamer...

Please don't shoot my cat, ben Ez.

[MikeMc]

58. Put down the guns, pick up some guts, ben Ez. NT

[benEzra]

60. Got 'em both, thanks. (n/t)

[MikeMc]

61. What is that slogan, something like 'god, guns, guts, gays, grizzlies, and

gorganzola (q mark inoperative)

[benEzra]

59. I've got my own (Maine Coon mix from a shelter), thanks.

Dogs have masters, cats have staff.

And what's with the stereotyping BS? Shooters can't like cats?

[MikeMc]

40. +1 One, Thanks. NT

[MikeMc]

64. I RULE on the issue, I guess. (Poor DU stiffs.)

[MikeMc]

67. And I STILL rule on the issue, I guess. NT.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MikeMc]

66. Well, THIS IS a BONANZA.........

I guess I get to reply to all the old threads, now. Without any technical computer skills, cheats, or even a q-mark or back slash available.


What to do, what to do {no q-mark, sorry)

Har! Har! {Exclamation point operative}

[MikeMc]

70. Post 607 et climbing...

Maybe I can make the vaunted DU '1000+ posts' designation, right here...

The glitch isn't my fault, guaranteed.

I swear.

[MikeMc]

75. I've got nothing else to do on DU, might as well 'post' to achieve

the vaunted '1000+ post' designation.

There sure are a lot of shady 1000+ ers here, but what the hey.

[JDPriestly]

71. The churches, especially the Catholic Church should be held

responsible for the killings of abortion doctors.

People can disagree about whether abortion is right or wrong. That is why we allow the individual woman to have a choice.

But, killing abortion doctors, we can all agree, is obviously wrong. So, why don't the churches, especially the Catholic Church, condemn the killing of abortion doctors just as much as it condemns abortion itself?

[MikeMc]

72. I noted that meeting between D.C. Archbishop Wuerl and Randall Terry,

right after Terry's 'Army of God' underling murdered Dr. Tiller, in church. Wuerl was our bishop in Pittsburgh, a while back. The new guy, Zubic, is no prize either. But Terry is a fundamentalist Prod., not a Catholic. (Media Matters says he is from the Landmark Church of Binghamton, NY).

Catholics have some bad guys up top of the hierarchy. But Al Franken noted that only 28% of US Catholics are against the women's right to choose. We also had some good leaders, like John 23, Paul 6, and JP 1st.

John Paul II and Benedict can both be hooked into the 3rd Reich, but the 3rd Reich wasn't Catholic. They were Gnostic Cathars, and their religious minister (Rosenberg) pushed the crooked cross and the 3rd Reich bible, not the Catholic doctrine. (See Shirer's 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich').

The US is a Protestant nation, not a Catholic nation. The repug WASPs on top were pissing and moaning about 'Rome Rule' when Kennedy got elected. He was the only Catholic prez. Lucky for them, a lone nut fixed their problems in the most 'Christian' city in America, in late '63. In the 2004 and 2008 elections, the nazi Catholic hierarchy weighed in about the 'sin' that believers would incur for voting Democratic. Like most Catholics, I put the hierarchy on 'ignore' status. I noticed that the WASP repugs that run this country didn't cry about 'Rome Rule' taking America over, in those elections. I wonder why.

Just more 'heads, the repugs win, tails, we lose,' I guess.

[JDPriestly]

73. I understand what you are saying, MikeMc.

The difference is that the Pope actually has some authority in the Catholic Church. Individual pastors have trust and credibility and therefore authority in the Protestant churches, but nothing like the Pope's.

If the Pope pointed out that killing doctors is against the Catholic doctrine against killing, he could discourage some of the most violent extremists among the anti-abortionists.

That the Pope does not denounce the killers gives those of us who are not Catholic the impression that he approves their crimes. Sorry, but it does seem that way.

The Pope would have communion denied to legislators who vote for abortion rights but does not deny it to people who advocate killing abortion doctors? Something very strange there.

[MikeMc]

74. Thanks for the re, JDP.

You may be overestimating the % of American catholics who listen when the pope speaks 'ex cathedra', though. Personally, as an observant catholic, I don't trust that guy. He looks like a Charles Addams cartoon character.

The current pope was the actual lineally-descendant leader of the Catholic church's 'Inquisition', under JP II. (I forget what the office is called, but it is something with 'Dogma' in the official title. He was also a Hitler youth in Austria, during WWII.

We are a 'big tent' organization, with Opus Dei and P-2 jockeying for position with Liberation Theologians, Labor Priests, and Maryknoll Sisters. The side with the guns and the Borgia-style poisoners usually comes out on top. Umberto Ecco writes a lot of great stuff on the subject, but you could always go for the tabloid-style histories depicted by Dan Brown.

The last 2 Papal administrations have been puckering up to kiss some virulent American nazi WASP repug ass, to be sure. They are doing it for money and power, but they'll still always be outside 'the pale'. The Church hierarchy did the same thing for hundreds of years. The fat rich bishops in Ireland excommunicated all the Irish Nationalist leaders, when they were fighting the Protestant British who occupied Ireland. Hundreds of years ago, in the 1800's. But have a sense of proportion, JD. The Catholics aren't running this anti-abortion pogrom in the US. The whack-job fundy fake Kristian prods are, and they're a bunch of repugs.

Last, here's an amusing antecdote from Tip O'Neill's autobiography, 'Man of the House', pp 169 - 170:

"President Kennedy himself called Speed Carroll. 'I'll be happy to do it,' he said, 'but I want to be in and out. No meetings. Just take me to where I'm supposed to be, give me five minutes to freshen up, and then bring me out to meet the young people.'
When the president arrived at the hotel, Speed (Father James 'Speed' Carroll, Tip's friend from the Catholic Youth Org.) was there to greet him. 'I understand your wishes', he said. 'But we have some bishops who are hoping to meet with you, and a group of nuns in the next room.'
Kennedy didn't miss a beat. 'The nuns I'll see,' he said. 'But not the bishops. They all vote Republican.' "

Funny as hell, innit (q mark)

[JDPriestly]

77. Yes. And I am quite aware that Catholic Charities are one of the

best benevolent organizations in the US -- really well run.

So I am not anti-Catholic, but aware that even the Protestant fanatics and hate-mongers look to the Catholic Church for some kind of authority. Strange but true.

Great story about Kennedy. If true, it is still more proof about what a politically savvy guy he was.

[MikeMc]

76. By the way, you are S.O.L., in terms of asking this pope to weigh in against the nazis.

For obvious, aforementioned reasons.