Psst, America - Iraq does not owe America anything

[Solly Mack]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

America did not do anyone any favors by invading and occupying Iraq or by detaining and torturing Iraqis.

Iraq is not responsible for the "mistakes" (the cowards way saying crimes) of America.

Those "mistakes" include but are not limited to:

Invading Iraq.
Implementing a torture policy
Extraordinary renditions
Illegal and indefinite detentions
Plundering Iraq's resources

America hasn't given Iraq anything...not a chance, not hope, not freedom, not democracy, not the "chance to have a normal government" - not anything - except for bloodshed and destruction.


All done ranting.

[madokie]

1. Yes so true

The Iraqi did nothing to deserve what the bush* regime has rained down on them, nothing at all. That's why it pisses me off to no end when people put the onus on the Iraqi to do something.

[Solly Mack]

3. It chaps my otherwise happy ass too.

[iamahaingttta]

2. But, they're sitting on our oil!

Someone actually said that to me, and he totally meant it.
That person, and lots of other Americans, don't give a fuck about the Iraqis or anyone else, as long as they get (relatively) cheap gas and other petroleum products.

[Solly Mack]

4. Amazing isn't it?

[EFerrari]

5. It's so weird when American politicians nag at Iraq to "stand up".

We've been beating up on them for nearly 40 years but they aren't recovering fast enough for us.

[Solly Mack]

6. It's the language of lies

It helps to legitimize Bush's criminal actions.

By pretending the problem in Iraq is the Iraqis and not a case of what America has done is allowing America to skate free for her actions.

America pretends that "we've done all we can to help" - when the ugly fact is..America has done nothing but hurt Iraq and Iraqis. But by blaming the Iraqis we attempt to absolve ourselves...we are attempting to portray our actions in Iraq in a favorable light. ...that we had good cause or good reason to invade..

[Karenina]

7. Didn't you get the memo?

"We've given Iraq an OPPORTUNITY to become a "normal country" -McConnell

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1127663

[Solly Mack]

8. Yeah...I saw that...among other ignorant remarks

about Iraq needing to stand up

It's the language of lies...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. They Don't Owe Us Anything, They Owe It To Themselves.

Are you saying they shouldn't put more effort forth to stabilize their country, regardless of who the actors were that sent it into chaos?

I'm not sure I quite get what your trying to put forth here.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluerthanblue]

21. hey OMC- since you are

choosing to set this thread up as an 'enlightened thinker' vs. 'knee-jerk follower' issue, i've go to add my own verbose perspective here.

Solly points out in the OP- the simple TRUTH-

Not the 'comfortable LIE' surrounded by a mountain of $10 words, and excuses- the twisted 'logic' that many people choose to champion because it gives 'us' that all important semblance of "honor" that appears to be so crucial to far too many Americans.

The sorry- ugly- cruel perspective that you (hopefully inadvertently) promote by your 'twist' on the "Iraq needs to 'step up to the plate'" bullshit by saying:
"they owe it to themselves"- isn't honestly fooling ANYONE.

At least not anyone who has a conscience, or who is willing to face the uncomfortable, troubling FACT that "we"- the American people- "own" the ... guilt- responsibility- blame- word it any way you like- for what has BECOME of the nation formerly known as Iraq.

It doesn't matter shit what "Saddam" was like as a leader. The country was a SOVEREIGN nation- and WE- without provocation or justification, invaded and destroyed the infrastructure of this country. We encouraged the chaos- (check out the pulling down of the 'Saddam' statue, you'll find it was a US propaganda opportunity) and did little or nothing to stop or discourage the looting and anarchy that followed.
We brought pallets of cash into this mess, armed people indiscriminately, enabled some 'gangs' - harassed others - pushed the 'notion' of 'free-elections' while the basic necessities of human life- clean water, electricity, food, medical help, shelter were left as 'secondary'.

Our 'assault' on Iraq, violated many of our own 'moral standards'- and also violated internationally agreed upon 'standards'.

Now, many politicians- even Dems- cry "we aren't going to do it for them, they have to 'stand up for themselves"- and i say to this " bullshit!" as I believe the OP does.

Yes, I agree with you, that the Iraqi people will be the ones to ultimately make the difference in the long run- They are the ones who are impacted the most- but

The malicious, disingenuous attempt to pretend our hands are not bloodstained, are not those who bear true responsibility for what has happened as a result of OUR PREMEDITATED ACTIONS- and trying to dump our shame back on this violated, broken society- as if to say "shame on them- we gave them everything, and they are simply lazy, fanatical, ingrates"- just won't work.

YES- we need to get out of there- our presence isn't doing anything except prolonging the agony-

And No- things are not going to just 'settle down' easily- but unless we are going to take this fiasco full circle and make Iraq the 51st 'state' - we cannot remain in Iraq, and demand that the government conform to "american" approval. (hitler?) If we have to use force, threats, and violence to maintain the 'status quo' in Iraq, how are 'we' any different than what many condemn Saddam for having been???-

Screw the oil. It ISN'T 'ours' and if we cannot maintain our society without becoming despicable aggressors in order to 'feed this 'need' - then I believe our society Should fail- a society built on the continued exploitation of other smaller nations isn't worth supporting.

I believe we need to be reminded that those inalienable rights championed by our forefathers extend not only to "us" but to ALL mankind.


I'm speaking for myself in this- I heard the OP as a timely reminder to those who would like to jump on the "Iraq has to step up" bandwagon, to look at the truth. Even when it hurts, it is always best to stand for truth- else we'll have to spend our lives trying to run from it.-

peace,
blu

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. I Would've Preferred The OP Speak For Themselves But Since They Refused; No Biggie. But I Appreciate

your doing the job for her.

Couple points of note I'd like to address though:


"Solly points out in the OP- the simple TRUTH- "

That was the problem. It was far too 'simple'. There was no substance or theory given as to what the counterside of the argument were saying they DID owe us. What exactly were the premises the OP was arguing against, that I was supposed to think about and deduce she was correct about? My objection thereafter was that the logic was half stated: I believed that though they didn't owe us anything, they still owed things to themselves. There was nothing wrong with my response inquiring about additional details of premise.


"The sorry- ugly- cruel perspective that you (hopefully inadvertently) promote by your 'twist' on the "Iraq needs to 'step up to the plate'" bullshit by saying:
"they owe it to themselves"- isn't honestly fooling ANYONE."

This is nonsensical to me. What are you even talking about? Fooling who? Attempting to fool them how? Where is the logic in your statement? Are you saying that Iraqis shouldn't now stand up and secure their country? That's false on its face. Instead of just throwing out the premise without the substance behind it, can you provide me reasons why my statement in my initial reply was a "sorry- ugly- cruel perspective"? And the statement is logically sound and rationally deduced. Has nothing to do with fooling anyone, since it is in fact a legitimate statement. If it isn't, please show otherwise.

"At least not anyone who has a conscience, or who is willing to face the uncomfortable, troubling FACT that "we"- the American people- "own" the ... guilt- responsibility- blame- word it any way you like- for what has BECOME of the nation formerly known as Iraq."

Actually, my statement holds true for them as well. In fact, I'm one of them.


"It doesn't matter shit what "Saddam" was like as a leader. The country was a SOVEREIGN nation- and WE- without provocation or justification, invaded and destroyed the infrastructure of this country. We encouraged the chaos- (check out the pulling down of the 'Saddam' statue, you'll find it was a US propaganda opportunity) and did little or nothing to stop or discourage the looting and anarchy that followed.
We brought pallets of cash into this mess, armed people indiscriminately, enabled some 'gangs' - harassed others - pushed the 'notion' of 'free-elections' while the basic necessities of human life- clean water, electricity, food, medical help, shelter were left as 'secondary'."

You're preaching to the choir here. Have I stated anything to the contrary? I was also heavily amused by your little insinuation that I wouldn't be aware to the propaganda stunt of the pulling down of the statue. That was cute, but quite silly. But really, I fail to see how any of that has anything to do with the fact that the Iraqis still owe it to themselves to do whatever they can to put their country back in order.

"Our 'assault' on Iraq, violated many of our own 'moral standards'- and also violated internationally agreed upon 'standards'."

No shit. Hey, did you know that water is wet?


"Now, many politicians- even Dems- cry "we aren't going to do it for them, they have to 'stand up for themselves"- and i say to this " bullshit!" as I believe the OP does."

Anyone can say 'bullshit', but at times it can be more of a tic then it is a logical deduction. Since I don't know which of the two this is, can you provide reasoning as to why it's bullshit? There is a ton of civil conflict going on there that the Iraqis themselves are responsible for, regardless of our part in facilitating the chaos. Are you trying to say that the Iraqis, at this CURRENT place in time, do not bear any responsibility in getting their country back in order? Just what is it you actually are saying? How exactly do you expect things to get better then, if they are not to be charged with taking control of the situation and striving for stability within their borders? Just how do you expect us to do that for them? Haven't we messed things up enough already? If so, how on Earth do you magically see us being able to stabilize Iraq without the Iraqis taking a huge part in the responsibility process of getting there?

"Yes, I agree with you, that the Iraqi people will be the ones to ultimately make the difference in the long run- They are the ones who are impacted the most- but"

Well good; since that's all I really friggin said to begin with.


"The malicious, disingenuous attempt to pretend our hands are not bloodstained, are not those who bear true responsibility for what has happened as a result of OUR PREMEDITATED ACTIONS- and trying to dump our shame back on this violated, broken society- as if to say "shame on them- we gave them everything, and they are simply lazy, fanatical, ingrates"- just won't work."

For the most part I agree. That's typical RW bullshit.


"YES- we need to get out of there- our presence isn't doing anything except prolonging the agony- "

I haven't claimed otherwise. Not sure why the need for this part, as if I already hadn't agreed.


"And No- things are not going to just 'settle down' easily- but unless we are going to take this fiasco full circle and make Iraq the 51st 'state' - we cannot remain in Iraq, and demand that the government conform to "american" approval. (hitler?) If we have to use force, threats, and violence to maintain the 'status quo' in Iraq, how are 'we' any different than what many condemn Saddam for having been???- "

Agreed (for the most part).


"Screw the oil. It ISN'T 'ours' and if we cannot maintain our society without becoming despicable aggressors in order to 'feed this 'need' - then I believe our society Should fail- a society built on the continued exploitation of other smaller nations isn't worth supporting."

Jesus. Where in the world did that come from? You really are spinning this off topic and on tangents. Are you just ranting about anything and everything Iraq now? I guess that's ok, but I fail to see why it was necessary in reply to me.


"I believe we need to be reminded that those inalienable rights championed by our forefathers extend not only to "us" but to ALL mankind."

Again, no kidding. Wait, have I ever told you that water is wet? Water is wet ya know.


"I'm speaking for myself in this- I heard the OP as a timely reminder to those who would like to jump on the "Iraq has to step up" bandwagon, to look at the truth. Even when it hurts, it is always best to stand for truth- else we'll have to spend our lives trying to run from it.- "

You keep saying the OP asked to look at the truth. I still see no truth in the OP or thereafter that gives serious substance to the concept against the Iraqis standing up. The OP and even your reply was just a rant on American policy there, but completely void of reasoning as to why the Iraqis shouldn't stand up a bit more or in absence of that what actually would then need to be done. It was all just somewhat empty, without a whole lot of 'truth' to go by.

Yes, we fucked them up and did so based on horrible premise. But going forward, from today, the Iraqis absolutely bear a large part of responsibility for doing whatever they can to stabilize their country after disaster, even if we caused that disaster. Furthermore, though we have and continue to be the primary cause for that disaster, many Iraqi citizens themselves have contributed much to the chaos as well.

I think what we've done over there is disgraceful. That's a no brainer. But now it's about moving forward, and forward progress CANNOT be made without their full support, motivation and dedication to stand up and do whatever they can to stop the civil war and secure their country. I'm not sure how on earth you could argue with that concept or consider such a legitimate premise to be one attempting to fool people somehow.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. ya know you actually made me smile today-

and that hasn't been easy.

I think you might be even more verbose than me-:P

and THAT ain't no easy thing either.

You want to trade insults?- sorry, I'm not interested.

You want to make a fight where there is none?- I'm not interested in that either.

Solly Mock stated the obvious SUCCINCTLY- (something that isn't easy for me)

You want a war of words-

Why?

You dis me for stating that you have simply stated the obvious "The Iraqi people owe it to themself"-
to 'stand up'-

That statement only SERVES to throw the attention AND the responsibility for what WE "owe"- off of us- (as it appears Hilliary did just today- there is a post above about it)

And dumps it back on to them.

I'll be as clear as i can here (call me mud- if it makes you feel better)

this statement:

Yes, we fucked them up and did so based on horrible premise. But going forward, from today, the Iraqis absolutely bear a large part of responsibility for doing whatever they can to stabilize their country after disaster, even if we caused that disaster. Furthmore, though we have and continue to be the primary cause for that disaster, many Iraqi citizens themselves have contributed much to the chaos as well.

I think what we've done over their is disgraceful. That's a no brainer. But now it's about moving forward, and forward progress CANNOT be made without their full support, motivation and dedication to stand up and do whatever they can to stop the civil war and secure their country. I'm not sure how on earth you could argue with that concept or consider such a legitimate premise to be one attempting to fool people somehow.

"The Iraqi citizens themselves have contributed much to the chaos as well."
=
"It isn't really 'our fault'- we only started the fire- they didn't put it out once it was going, and they didn't carry all their valuables to safety!"

"forward progress CANNOT be made without their full support, motivation and dedication to stand up and do whatever they can to stop the civil war and secure their country."

Now, you'd say "NO Duh!" to me if i made this statement, but I'll give this a try-
Do you sincerely believe that the "Iraqi" people WANT the "civil war" that exists right now in their country? I'm not talking about the loud violent minority- I'm speaking about the beleaguered MAJORITY-
Kind of like saying that the American people WANT this country to be where it is right now- right here today- I sure as hell don't- and haven't- I've done what I am able, and what I believed would help to keep this from happening, but i haven't changed anything.

Do you honestly believe the people stuck in Iraq WANT to live in chaos and turmoil- to live in fear and terror on a daily basis??? 9-11 was a cake walk compared to what the citizens of Iraq have endured under our 'care' ---

Why do you feel that it is necessary to interject the OBVIOUS- "the Iraqi's owe it to themselves"- into a post that is pulling back the 'cover' of lies that Americans are using to DEFLECT the guilt and responsibility we cannot get away from???

There are Dems saying "Iraq has got to step up"- You mimic them- well, I ask you- how are they gonna do that??? What makes you think they aren't trying everything THEY can to do just that? It is easy for us in the comfort of our abundance and safety to say "they should"- but it isn't you- or me that has to look through their eyes at the shambles and destruction that faces them.

The OP didn't say- in ANY place that i can see, that the Iraqi's should NOT 'stand up'- but getting annoyed with them-(and again, I'll encourage you to listen to the calls for the Iraqi's to "buck up" "quit whining" "grow some balls" )- even from those in the Democratic party IS CRUEL-

It is akin to ragging on one of our returned Soldiers who has lost their legs, for not signing on to 'march' on DC- How about some prosthesis'- How about understanding that there are hurdles that have to be overcome in order to move forward, and how about not kicking a nation that WE have beaten half to death while they are down? Only because it deflects the attention from OUR deed- to their needs???

I don't know how to help you see this perspective- But I think you see it better than you'd like to admit.

I'm not going to drag this thread down with my run-away replies-

Solly's OP stands just fine on its own merit-
despite me- or you.


peace,
blu

[leftchick]

69. WE owe these babies in Iraq some help. NOW!

babylonsister's thread just up.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1151296

:cry:

[CrazyForKucinich]

31. OP is saying that.....

We can not get into the mindset that success has to happen...because the Iraqis didn't want success themselves from the start. It is not possible to invade countries and make their people care. The only thing that can change minds is enlightenment and the Iraqis are not enlightened...they are the exact opposite. They are living in chaos...no love and no liberty.

Iraq is a failure and always was and always will be. We should get the fuck out...and let them come to enlightenment on their own terms. We are doing no good in Iraq but some Americans feel we must stay until the Iraqis wake up...well that could be 2000 more years. Thinking we must stay is not responsible or practical...it is insane.

Let's get the fuck out now.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CrazyForKucinich]

41. What? What?

Care to explain what you are talking about or do you just want to attack me?

[qwlauren35]

51. It's the "enlightenment" part.

And the suggestion that they won't be "enlightened" any time soon.

Enlightened in what way? To becoming a democratic society? To giving up Islam?

I think it was that one word that makes your statement difficult, at least for me.

[CrazyForKucinich]

53. Enlightenment can not come until one finds love and liberty

Here is my motto...you can disagree if you want.

Without love there is no liberty.
Liberty without love is chaos.
Chaos will kill us all.

[qwlauren35]

71. I guess then, I am curious as to whether

you think that the US is enlightened? Or will be in the next 2000 years?

I'm not that impressed with us lately. I think we're acting like barbarians.

[TheWatcher]

54. Mindless Personal Attack.

Real helpful.

[Karenina]

55. See post #31 for a mindless attack

on the character of an entire nation of people. That's PEOPLE, NOT UNTERMENSCHEN. The Iraqi people, JUST LIKE AMERICANS, are NOT a monolith. It is bigotted to ascribe negative characteristics to them as though they were.

[Solly Mack]

56. uh..No. I did not say that

I didn't imply that or infer that or suggest that.

I said exactly what I meant.

[Karenina]

57. As you always do so eloquently

without mincing words. :loveya:

[Solly Mack]

64. Thanks!!

:loveya:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[qwlauren35]

50. Native Americans are in a similar plight.

I hope that's clear enough. The poverty, illness, neglect and addictions that hamper Native American communities are a direct result of Europeans taking over their land and ruining their way of life. I think it would be a correct statement to say that "they owe it to themselves" to create the healthiest possible communities; however, to pretend that their situation is one of their own making is absurd. And they definitely owe US, nothing.

Whatever the US government does to compensate for the destruction of the way of life for entire groups of peoples throughout North America will NEVER NEGATE THE FACT that it was destroyed by European settlers and opportunists greedy for land.

Whatever the US government does to compensate for the destruction of Iraq in the name of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" will never be enough to cancel out the fact that we started the whole d*mn thing in the first place, because of a handful of opportunists, greedy for oil.

Clearly, it is a dangerous thing to have something that someone else wants badly enough.

[personman]

70. Yes, you've nailed it. The problem is the Iraqis aren't trying hard enough...

:sarcasm:

More effort than getting blown up in the streets and functioning without power and running water?

More effort then being indiscriminately bombed by us?

More effort then getting fucked, fondled and sodomized in a prison by our uniformed patriotic heroes?

I gotta tell you...that sounds like a LOT of effort.

Personally, I think we should be honoring the amazing patience and perseverance of the Iraqi people in spite of all we've done to them. If we were interested in any real justice we would meet our responsibilities, such as ending the aggression, and paying reparations for our crimes. Not just for the war but also for the sanctions and their effects on the people of Iraq. Perhaps we might owe them something for supporting Saddam during his worst atrocities on his own people as well.

I think we don't really want Iraq stable unless it's stable with our claws sunk in firmly.

[Bonobo]

10. We should immediately start giving Iraq reparations for what we have done.

All the hundreds of billions that get thrown into the war every few years should go instead to Iraq to spend on their own rebuilding as they will, not into the coffers of Haliburton or anyone else.

We need to leave immediately, start paying reparations with no strings attached and surrender the war criminals who defied US and International Law and lied and bullied their way into a war that has killed hundred of thousands and displaced millions.

[Solly Mack]

13. I can sign onto that

[Matsubara]

12. But, but, all the Iraqis were BEGGING us to bomb and invade them, right?

That's what the check-forger Chalabi said, so it must be true!

And now, they all want us to stay, right?

So shouldn't they have to pay for the privilege of their cities being leveled, their economy destroyed, their children killed and maimed and their oil reserves privatized and sold off to the lowest (US Based) bidder?


:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

14. I know...I can almost recall...if I try hard enough

all those Iraqis on TV begging with America to invade and occupy.

In all seriousness, I'm betting some people actually can....the mind is a funny thing.

[Bluerthanblue]

15. so true- kind of like

the abuser mentality-

Or the bully- "they Made me do it!"

Any way you look at it you are right- we are the ones who owe. We have created a situation that we can never make up for- or 'repair'-


Ranting about the things that matter is a 'good' thing- ;)
:hi:

thanks-
blu

[Solly Mack]

16. It's exactly like the bully blaming the victim

Thank you!!!! :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. But, Al-Queda is deeply indebted to us for accomplishing their mission.

From a relatively obscure group of fanatics, we have managed to elevate them to prominence and achieve most of their goals by making a crime into a brutal war without end.

We have also, brilliantly, ended any chance of peace in Israel/Palestine. We have managed to make ourselves into the common enemy of most of the people of the middle-east and a pariah to the rest of the world.

Oh, and we mustn't forget undermining the few remaining liberties in our own country, showcasing our bumbling military's ineffectiveness against gurerrillas, and put our nation deeply in debt financing the glorious adventure.

Bush should demand payment from Al-Queda for services rendered and a big kiss of gratitude from Osama.

[Solly Mack]

18. Always a bright side...

:(

[qwlauren35]

52. Actually, I think that's what embarrasses me.

Al-Qaeda set out to "punish us" for being what we are...

And in the process, they have caused us to show our true colors. We are behaving every bit as badly as they accused us of being.

Some of us just don't see it.

Are they really the only terrorists here???

[alstephenson]

58. Spot on.

[The Count]

19. Actually you're wrong. Abu Grahib was much more primitive "before" than "after"

The White House frat boys fantasies were bigger than Saddam's. We learned them Iraqis the civilized ways!

[Solly Mack]

20. Good point

[Lars39]

22. And millions displaced, too.

You lucked out, SollyMack...a thread of yours attracted yet another deleted sub-thread featuring a certain poster. Interesting.

[Solly Mack]

24. Yes...the millions displaced and the hundreds upon hundreds orphaned

Yes, lucky me. ..again

[seemslikeadream]

34. Maybe they all be invited here like the Hmong were

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUQI1yTPeI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcxo8BwwURU&mode=related&search=

http://us10.pixagogo.com/S5zbTG1dgOCeCFGwDXVKYFnjhE!E5NzwRoQ8gZfrYlB0Hc7R4X90AuvOo6OxIW5HkHCnv5SP8xv1QxbCO65VUtM3GK!odnswADJl00ZzRA2vFE0biNImXgBQ__/Little_Admiral.jpg



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1947980&mesg_id=1948306





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxfhfHCzb8&mode=related&search=

"HUNTED LIKE ANIMALS" Hmong Hunted and tortured -merciless!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmSWXk1nFRc&mode=related&search=

[Solly Mack]

37. Thank you

:(

[seemslikeadream]

39. Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier

http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml

Writing to an American who was confused about the Hmong people, Jack Austin Smith, a Vietnam Veteran and a retired career soldier, wrote the following in 1996 (quoted from his e-mail to me, with permission):

The war in Vietnam was fought on several fronts and I served in two them. The main American battle ground was in the Southern end of South Vietnam. In order for the North Vietnamese forces to fight us there, it was necessary for their supplies and troops to go through Laos and Cambodia on the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and Laos was controlled by a Pro-Communist Government at that time. Therefore America was not allowed to have any forces on the ground, although we were allowed to bomb and attack North Vietnamese troops with our aerial forces. About 99% of the combat forces on the ground were Hmong irregulars who were persuaded by Americans to forget about being neutral, and to fight the N. Vietnamese regulars (not relatively poorly trained Viet Cong guerrilla forces). We supplied air cover, but every combat trooper knows aircraft can't take and hold ground. We depended on the Hmongs to do this. Without modern arms, without medical help.
After the fall of Saigon we pulled out of Southeast Asia and left the Hmongs to continue the fight without air support. When we left, the Hmong had to fight both the Laotians and the N. Vietnamese. They could not fight tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft with rifles. A great many Hmongs were slaughtered in their villages. Many were slaughtered at airfields where they waited for evacuation planes that never came. A few were able to fight every foot of the way across Laos and cross the Mekong River into refugee camps in Thailand where they were further mistreated by rather corrupt UN and Thai officials. Out of a estimated 3,000,000 prewar Hmong population less than 200,000 made it to safety. One other ill informed or stupid writer said "they were all gone" meaning, I guess, that the combat Hmongs were all dead, they are wrong. Most of the survivors are in Australia, France and here among us.

Now I don't know about those heroes who have never heard a shot fired in anger, but I am embarrassed that my country so mislead these people. The Hmongs gave up literally everything for us: their country, their homes, their peaceful way of life, most of their families, everything that we would cherish. We promised them our continued support and then we bugged out.

You mentioned having relatives who fought in Vietnam and I hope they all survived. However their chances would have been much less if the Hmongs hadn't intercepted over 50% of the N. Vietnamese troops and supplies. If you truly loved your relatives, you should be grateful for the Hmongs' sacrifices.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/hmong.shtml

[Solly Mack]

40. I'm watching the videos again and again

Thanks for the added links

(((seemslikeadream))))

just cause

[seemslikeadream]

47. This is what we left behind fighting COMMUNISM

What are we leaving behind fighting TERRORISM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdwfMStlmXI&mode=related&search=

[Solly Mack]

49. Exactly my thoughts

[WritersBlock]

25. What you said!

I totally agree. I noticed it got a lot worse last year when suddenly the talking points became all about "liberation & freedom" for the Iraqis. And not just repug talking points, either, but the BBC & Michael Moore, of all people.

I am not a sociologist or historian, but I've always heard that history is written by the victors. Well, I'm thinking that this is probably the first major revision of history that the "powers that be" have tried since the Internets came about. I'm hoping this particular attempt will fail due to the sheer amount of information available.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2803303

http://auntypatience.blogspot.com/2006/11/rewriting-history-courtesy-of-bbc.html

[Solly Mack]

26. Thanks, WritersBlock! It's failing with me and it always will

and I'll keep speaking out against it...because you're right - it is a deliberate revision of history

[scorpiogirl]

28. I agree with you 100%

The fact that we've gone in there and broken their country and no one considers the morale of the Iraqis. Death and destruction all around and they should just pick themselves up and figure it all out. Meanwhile, they have very little use of electricity or clean water, etc. How well would we function in that situation? I guess the mentality is, better us than them. It's sick IMO.

[Solly Mack]

30. Exactly. The people occupying their country and detaining their people

are the very ones telling them to take charge!

Take charge - even though we want to control your oil, determine your government, detain your people and bomb your cities.

[scorpiogirl]

35. Yes.

I cannot even imagine living with that daily physical fear as they are. The amount of courage needed just to venture out of their homes. It's got to be debilitating to say the least. They don't deserve that- no ones does. Americans would be appalled at the thought of themselves having to live that way, but because it's way over there...it's not even something most people probably think about. It's sad.

[GeorgeGist]

29. Awe shucks ...

all that Shock for nothing.

[porphyrian]

33. "America" doesn't think Iraq owes us anything.

Don't listen to the assholes who keep speaking for us all - most of us didn't elect them and want them gone.

[Solly Mack]

36. Yes - but you morally bankrupt lying piece of petrified war crime enabling Bush toady shit

wouldn't fit :)

Psst, you morally bankrupt lying piece of petrified war crime enabling Bush toady shit - Iraq doesn't owe America anything

See?

[porphyrian]

42. Well, I like that one much better. Perhaps we should petition for longer subject lines.

I just hate being lumped together with those assholes and their actions, which I can't control.

[Solly Mack]

43. I liked it better too.

[merh]

44. You forgot the use of weapons of mass destruction by the USA

as crimes that the Iraqis are not responsible for (but are victims of).

Depleted Uranium and white phosphorous and napalm. :cry:

God forgive us.

[Solly Mack]

45. Yes!! Thank you, merh!!! Exactly right you are

[merh]

46. I really hate being right about this,

I wish I were wrong. :(

:hi:

[genie_weenie]

48. But, Iraq sure owes Blackwater! And Bush is going to

ensure that the American military makes the Iraqi people pay in blood.

[Solly Mack]

61. I always get the feeling Bush enjoys the blood-letting

[genie_weenie]

65. He sure as Hell does! Erik Prince of Blackwater

is whispering in his ear right now about how fuckin' righteous he is. Deus Vult! Deus Vult

[alstephenson]

59. Great rant and I couldn't agree more. I was shocked to hear Hillary..

say during her Hardball interview that if the Iraqis don't "stand up", we should discontinue aid to them. WTF??? So we should discontinue the aid to rebuild their country, the country that WE bombed the shit out of? Just WTF. I was really, really trying to like Hillary, but that comment and a few others she made changed my mind. She's off my short list of Dem candidates to support.

[Solly Mack]

62. I don't like anyone saying it. Never have..always been a major pet peeve

of mine.

The language of lies people are all too willingly adopting does nothing but shape a history that is a lie. It makes it easier for Bush to get away with his crimes.

It is right up there with "mistakes" for crimes

By pretending that our actions no longer matter....

the how of Iraq doesn't matter...

when it matters...it will always matter

[Decruiter]

68. Thank you for your rant. You put pen to paper well and have said it all.

Thanks.

[Binka]

60. Amen Sister

:loveya:

[Solly Mack]

63. Thanks, Binka!

:hug:

:D

[cassiepriam]

66. Sociopaths always blame the victims.

[Solly Mack]

67. Yeah they do