London Bomb--What a Crock of Crap!!

[ProSense]

Just Another Day

London Bomb--What a Crock of Crap!!

by
Larry C Johnson

So I turn on the telly this morning and find breathless CNN anchors hyperventilating over the nuclear suicide car weapon of mass destruction discovered smoldering outside of a London nightclub. One report from the scene notes that:

London police were contacted when witnesses saw a Mercedes being driven erratically near London West End night club Tiger Tiger, and the driver jumped out of the automobile and ran away. The car was reported to have two gasoline canisters and be full of nails.

CNN adds:

Explosives officers discovered the fuel and nails attached to a "potential means of detonation," inside the vehicle. Officers "courageously" disabled the trigger by hand, he said. Security sources told CNN that the "relatively crude device" in the first car contained at least 200 liters, or about 50 gallons, of fuel in canisters.

You know what you call a vehicle with 50 gallons of gas? A Cadillac Escalade. The media meltdown over this incident is simply shameful.

For starters, gasoline is not a high explosive. If we were talking 50 pounds of Semtex or the Al Qaeda standby, TATP, I would be impressed. Those are real high explosives with a detonation rate in excess of 20,000 feet per second. Gasoline can explode (just ask former owners of a Ford Pinto) but it is first and foremost an incendiary. If the initial reports are true, the clown driving the Mercedes was a rank amateur when it comes to constructing an Improvised Explosive Device aka IED. Unlike a Hollywood flick the 50 gallons of gas would not have shredded the Mercedes into lethal chunks of flying shrapenal.

The fact that "officers courageously disabled the trigger by hand" coupled with the report of the smoke in the car leads me to believe that the mad London "bomber" tried to construct a Molotov cocktail of sorts and lit a cloth fuze. Fortunately he left the windows in the car up and there was not enough oxygen to really get the fire going. Looks like the brave British police reached in and snuffed the flame.

Judging from the overreaction to this non-incident I think we can safely conclude that Osama Bin Laden will remain holed up in Pakistan and let the fear mongers at CNN, MSNBC, and FOX do the dirty business of scaring the shit out of people.

I'm more afraid of the SCOTUS.

[babylonsister]

1. Ah, yes, a voice of welcome reason. nt

[still_one]

2. and fertilizer isn't a high explosive either, but it can kill /nt

[XOKCowboy]

9. Ammonium Nitrate is a high explosive

when mixed with fuel oils. I refer you to Wikipedia

As a strong oxidizing agent, ammonium nitrate makes an explosive mixture when combined with a fuel such as a hydrocarbon, usually diesel fuel (oil) or, sometimes, kerosene. Because ammonium nitrate and fuel oil (ANFO) are readily available in bulk, ANFO mixtures have occasionally been used for improvised bombs, for example by the Provisional IRA and in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Ammonium nitrate is used in military explosives such as the daisy cutter bomb, and as a component of amatol. Military mixtures are often spiked with ~20% aluminium powder as well, increasing the blast power, but with some loss of brisance. One example of this is Ammonal, which contains ammonium nitrate, TNT & aluminium. Aluminised mixtures are very effective under confinement, as in underwater demolition, torpedoes, and rock blasting. Very cheap water-based blasting slurries tap the power of an aluminium-water reaction with enough ammonium nitrate added to burn off the resulting hydrogen.

Ammonium nitrate is also an explosive in its purest form although it is an unusually insensitive one. Explosive properties become much more evident at elevated temperatures. When ammonium nitrate is fused and "boiled" to generate nitrous oxide, it has been claimed to be as sensitive as dynamite at the ~240 °C operating temperature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate

The point of the OP was that gasoline (at least 50 gals) doesn't have the firepower to do much more than destroy the interior of the car. Pretty lame "Terra" plot if you ask me.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Facts over The Big Fear? never gonna happen. nt.

[formercia]

41. Ammonium Nitrate by itself is very difficult to detonate

I did a demonstration once. Laid a sack of Ammonium Nitrate prills on the ground. On top of that, 4 sticks of 40% gelatine dynamite laced together with detonating cord and then put another sack of AN on top. When I set off the Dynamite, the blast sprayed the field with AN prills. It did not appear to have set off any quantity of the AN.

Mix it with fuel and it's a different story.

[MichaelHarris]

20. Ummm

http://www.local1259iaff.org/disaster.html

[Totally Committed]

3. Wouldn't be a proper Friday before the 4th of July without the Big BOO!

When will people learn that this is standard operating procedure these days?

The media has been pitiful on this and just about everything lately.

TC

[Mabus]

46. A little something to set the mood for the 4th of July

Wasn't that sweet of them to remember?

Their attempts to re-create that 9-11 fear don't work anymore. They just haven't realized it yet.

[Eurobabe]

4. Oh but now CNN is hawking that there is a SECOND CAR bomb, another Mercedes

So this surely couldn't be anyone but Al Qaeda. :sarcasm:

:banghead: :nuke: :rant:

[Eurobabe]

6. and AQ always utilizes things in FOURS, so now Wolf is breathless

there could be TWO OTHER vehicles out there, not discovered yet!!

[Flying Dream Blues]

71. Oh, man I missed that. Terra, terra, terra! nt

[Warpy]

11. The other one had spare parts and was illegally parked to

draw attention to it.

Can anybody say "false flag?"

[Junkdrawer]

5. Let's see...Tony (The Poodle) Blair leaves....

How to insure that Britain doesn't change its Iraq policy....

:think::think::think::think::think::think::think:

[MorningGlow]

7. That was my first thought as well

Specifically (spoken aloud to the radio after I heard the report): "Oh puh-leeze. That was a 'Welcome to the prime minister's office, Mr. Brown--tread carefully and pay attention to the script' message if I ever saw one."

[SpiralHawk]

77. "Smirk, smirk, smirk" - Commander AWOL

"Sneer, sneer, sneer" - Dickie "Five Military Deferments" Cheney

[IChing]

12. They have a picture of the suspect

so you might want to recant.......http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1212263&mesg_id=1212263

[Malikshah]

23. Was he a brazilian?? Hope he wasn't shot.

At this point, if they say the sky is blue, they'll have to prove it.

[blm]

37. EXACTLY my first thought - Gordon Brown was being TOLD what will happen by

the BFEE.

[Mabus]

47. I'm even more tinfoil

It's one of their dry-runs for figuring out what will stop the 2008 US presidential election.

:tinfoilhat:

[ButterflyBlood]

55. Too bad it would violate DU policy to dig up old posts like this

Since I'd love to do it after the 2008 election. Just like I could've done with tons of other tin foil crap I've read in the past that never came true (Remember that draft that was coming June 2005?)

[Mabus]

91. Feel free

btw, you did notice the tinfoil hat icon, didn't you?

I don't think it should be a violation if you have the express permission of the poster that you want to reference. Go for it.

[spoony]

8. Yes, as we all know nothing bad ever really happens

It's all just a Bushco conspiracy...even in other countries...:eyes:

[aquart]

29. Funny how the IRA attacks on London were barely covered here.

Londoners are familiar with terrorism, they've been getting blown up for decades. But we never heard a big stink about it until it became useful to George.

[LeftishBrit]

69. True enough...

the largest amount of blowing-up occurred in Northern Ireland itself, but it certainly affected London and other parts of England from time to time. Some of you may remember that the IRA planted a bomb at the Conservative Party Conference in Brighton when Thatcher was PM. A Cabinet Minister was killed, and others were injured. I have to say that while it galls me to say ANYTHING good about Maggie and her government, they did not all whip up fear and hysterics in the population forever afterwards, the way Bush would do in similar situations.

I remember as recently as 1993, being stranded in one part of Oxford for a few hours, because part of the town was cordoned off due to an IRA bomb being discovered in a shop (it was safely disposed of by bomb experts).

The attitude in London tends to be that if London survived the Blitz, it can survive anything.

[pampango]

76. I love seeing DU's reaction to "foiled bombing plots."

The conspiracy theories and Keystone cop stories come out of the woodwork. If the London police jumped to conclusions as fast as we do, we would be all over them. Kind of like the bombing in Spain, that the conservative government blamed on ETA without any evidence, just for political reasons.

The next time a bomb actually does go off, the only thing we will be "sure" of is that it either 1) MIHOP, 2) LIHOP, and/or payback for Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc. In other words, there were no "bad" guys involved, we did it ourselves; if there were "bad" guys involved, we knew about it and let it happen anyway; and/or there are "bad" guys but they have every right to take action in this way, because of what England and the US have done in the Middle East and the London police are bumbling fools.

Some bombing plots in London have succeeded, some genuine plots were foiled and some "plots" that were "uncovered" were discovered to never have existed and were either misunderstandings or intentional exaggerations or fictions. It is hard to tell which category this latest "plot" this belongs to, unless you just "know" these things are always (fill in the blank) without hearing any details.

[conspirator]

101. So who do you think this is? Al-Qaeda? But Al-Qaeda doesn't do puny, despearate attacks. nt

[Common Sense Party]

119. They're not superheros. They're terrorists. Some are smart and

some are very stupid.

Richard Reid? He tried to light his shoes on fire. He was a complete moron. That was puny and desperate.

The problem we seem to have with "Al Qaeda" is that it ISN'T an organization. It's not organized. There's no real hierarchy. It's just hundreds (?) of disparate cells, each doing their own thing in their own way, with little oversight or funding from HQ. Many of them are just loosely or tenuously connected to Al Qaeda idealogically, and they are AQ wanna-be's.

[Warpy]

10. I pointed out in an earlier thread that the only way to make

and effective gasoline powered explosion is to aerosolize the stuff, make sure there's plenty of air to mix it into, and set it off in a closed space.

The "boom" in this case would have been a "whoosh" at most, and while the fire that poured out along the street would have done a great deal of damage, the shrapnel would not have in the absence of another explosive propellant.

There were other cannisters/tanks in the cars, but unless they were cracked and the car full of fumes and air, they'd have provided a poor explosion, too.

In any case, most of the explosion would have been spent blowing the windows out of the car due to the limited amount of oxygen inside the car to fuel it---unless the tanks/cylinders were 02 cylinders, but the gasoline would still need to be aerosolized.

I guess these guys don't watch "Mythbusters." Making big things go BOOM isn't always as easy as it looks.

[Edweird]

26. Sorry, but you're wrong. The difference between "whoosh" and "BOOM!"

is an oxidizer. Add an oxidizer to fuel and you have an explosive. That includes gasoline. Mythbusters have pathetic methodology and their "facts" are often wrong. Their "pop science" should not be relied on for anything except entertainment.

[Warpy]

54. Not enough to have propelled shrapnel any considerable

distance.

[butterfly77]

13. I turned off the television...

I am sick of hearing about it, ABC came in with a special report as if they were warning us about an attack in America. What difference does it make if we can't do anything about it. When I would like them to give a special report not a peep. "Special report" Cheney is a separate branch of the government"

[spoony]

18. "as if they were warning us about an attack in America"

Some of us do care about things that happen outside of America.

[Eurobabe]

14. Bush monitoring London sitch from Maine: Now watch this cast!

[stirlingsliver]

15. When Will Our Press STOP?

When will our press stop being little lapdogs for those people who tyr to make us into slaves by scaring the hell out of us?

This is an old trick -- scare the shit out of the people -- so they will give up more and more of their freedom.

[cgrindley]

17. Larry Johnson is a fucknard

And he deserves a good smack in the mouth for spouting such horseshit. What an idiot. I was in London shortly after the last terrorist bombing and saw the wreckage of the London bus not half a block away from where I was staying. I was in NYC two days after 9/11, when the smoke was still rolling up 5th avenue. Anyone who downplays these sorts of terrorist events only deserves derision and scorn. The nerve of this asshole.

Just because the Right Wing is a bunch of idiots, and just because they're going about combating Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism in an entirely foolish and counterproductive manner doesn't change the basic truth of the situation: there are groups of both organized and disorganized Islamic fundamentalists who want nothing more than to kill us.

Personally, I think that the best policy is complete economic and military disengagement from Islamic Republics in the Middle East and elsewhere. Bring everyone home and have nothing more to do with these nations and their wretched and disgusting politics.

[spoony]

19. Spot on.

[Malikshah]

24. Oh, OK. As if they've been so truthful thus far.

Unless they provide proof, they can shut the hell up.

I was in London as well--three frikkin days after the 7/7 bombing--and in London the day of the 2 week "repeat"

Blair's government (it's still there, whoever is PM) can't be trusted--they still answer to the Liar Regime of this country.

[CJCRANE]

31. Exactly

there hasn't been a proper investigation of 9/11 or an acceptable inquiry into 7/7.

The victims' families' concerns are completely ignored by the MSM.

[jaksavage]

28. What about Ours?

wretched politics...

[aquart]

30. Oh, how ridiculous.

Please stay in a perpetual state of terror because some assholes once blew something up.

Anyone who up-plays these attacks encourages them.

And how nice of you to visit us two days later. Tourist.

[cgrindley]

43. tourist?

I live in CT and work in NYC.

[spoony]

59. Once?

Be sure to "stay in a perpetual state of" denial because some assholes once committed political and war crimes because other assholes blew something up. Regardless of what this admin does, it doesn't make terrorism not exist.

[CJCRANE]

32. Unfortunately

these attacks, foiled attacks, false alarms, terror alerts etc. benefit the BFEE/MIC more than anyone else so it's likely they're here to stay.

[stirlingsliver]

53. Exactly!

Bush, Cheney, and all of their croneys and lapdogs want to keep us enslaved.

What's the best way to do that?

Keep us all in a perpetual state of fear.

Anyone who believes that there was a bomb in London is truly naive.

[ButterflyBlood]

112. oh yes. They've been so beneficial to themm lately.

That must be why Bush's ratings skyrocket after every one and support for the Iraq War bounces too.

Except that doesn't happen.

[redqueen]

33. how do you know 7/7 wasn't an(other) inside job? n/t

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Parche]

50. 7/7

9/11 was, so 7/7 had to be

Just terra tactics to scare the people into submission........to get their minds off of subpenis........:hi:

[LeftishBrit]

73. How do I know that Gordon Brown isn't going to kidnap me tomorrow?

There's a difference between being cynical about the British government and being utterly paranoid about it.

And on a slightly more serious note: in what way would/did 7/7 benefit the British government? Far from rallying the British around their Noble Leader and making us all support the War on Terra, it made us if anything even more hostile to the Iraq war ("we should never have gone into this mess, and now it's putting our country into danger"). Even if the government was inclined to operate in this way, it wouldn't have had the motivation here.

[ButterflyBlood]

111. You bring up a great point, but the tinfoilers always ignore this

They'll just use the argument "well it backfired, it didn't accomplish its intended goals, that doesn't mean it wasn't an inside job", etc.

This is standard tinfoiler operation:

1-Automatically ssume all terrorist attacks are black ops done by the CIA/MI6/Mossad/etc. and all thwarted terrorists attacks are completely false and made up, all for the purpose of frightening the American public into supporting Bush and the Iraq War (even though there has been no such effect from a successful or thwarted attack on the polls in at least 2 years...doesn't matter to these folks). This is even without a shred of evidence pointing in this direction.

2-Create "evidence" backing up your theory which is easily debunked but ignore all such debunkings.

3-Accuse anyone doubting your tinfoil theories of being media lemmings, right wingers, or people who refuse to see "the truth", etc. just like cultists for the most part (We hold the truth, if you can't see it, you are blind to our glorious way of thinking!)

Normally I wouldn't care, but these people are exactly the reason DU has such a poor reputation internet-wide.

[originalpckelly]

74. How do you know this wasn't going to be a 7/7-like inside job?

:shrug:

[Mz Pip]

36. Thank you

for putting my thoughts in word so clearly. Bombs are not jokes. Just because they didn't go off THIS TIME doesn't make this something to ridicule.

Would Larry Johnson been happier if they did go off?

Mz Pip
:dem:

[XOKCowboy]

38. The problem is how do you define a "bomb"....

There were no explosives in the car. The OP pointed out that gasoline is not an explosive (the vans we drive cross country have more gasoline on board also). If it was a "terrorist" bomb it was a pretty lame excuse for a bomb.

[cgrindley]

60. Tell us how great you'd feel if it was parked in your driveway(nt)

[wurstie]

110. Sure, no problem...

...the only hassle would be to call the fire department to have it hosed down and towed.

[spoony]

61. Lame excuse indeed

I mean the one you're using for dismissing terrorism because some of their efforts are less than genius. The second round of London bombers were fairly lame themselves when they failed to detonate their bombs, but they existed. Something tells me the people around them didn't think it was no big deal since it didn't go off.

[originalpckelly]

75. Excuse me, but what is propane? Last time I checked...

that's what patio gas from the UK was.

[Scout1071]

84. No, it was 50 gallons of gasoline, propane and nails.

Most definitely a bomb.

As pointed out above, it's not easy to ignite the type of fertilizer used in OKC.

[Malikshah]

102. 50 gallons or 50 liters-- big difference.

Definitely a bomb? Oh, ok.

[Scout1071]

113. Yes, 50 gallons.....200 liters.

[cherokeeprogressive]

88. Ammonium Nitrate isn't a bomb. Diesel Oil isn't a bomb.

Tell the families of the 168 dead and 800 injured in OKC at the Murrah Building that they weren't bombed.

[burythehatchet]

82. Would you mind posting your credentials or bio?

Here's Mr. Johnson's. I want to make an informed decision on whose analysis I should weigh more heavily. Thanks.


Biography

Larry C. Johnson is CEO and co-founder of BERG Associates, LLC, an international business-consulting firm with expertise combating terrorism and investigating money laundering. Mr. Johnson works with US military commands in scripting terrorism exercises, briefs foreign governments on a regular basis on terrorist trends, and conducts undercover investigations on product counterfeiting and smuggling.
Mr. Johnson, who worked previously with the Central Intelligence Agency and U.S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, is a recognized expert in the fields of terrorism, aviation security, crisis and risk management.
Mr. Johnson has analyzed terrorist incidents for a variety of media including the Jim Lehrer News Hour, National Public Radio, ABC's Nightline, NBC's Today Show, the New York Times, CNN, Fox News, and the BBC. Mr. Johnson has authored several articles for publications, including Security Management Magazine, the New York Times, and The Los Angeles Times. He has lectured on terrorism and aviation security around the world, including the Center for Research and Strategic Studies at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, France. He represented the U.S. Government at the July 1996 OSCE Terrorism Conference in Vienna, Austria.
From 1989 until October 1993, Larry Johnson served as a Deputy Director in the U.S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism. He managed crisis response operations for terrorist incidents throughout the world and he helped organize and direct the US Government’s debriefing of US citizens held in Kuwait and Iraq, which provided vital intelligence on Iraqi operations following the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Mr. Johnson also participated in the investigation of the terrorist bombing of Pan Am 103. Under Mr. Johnson’s leadership the U.S. airlines and pilots agreed to match the US Government’s two million-dollar reward.
From 1985 through September 1989 Mr. Johnson worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. During his distinguished career, he received training in paramilitary operations, worked in the Directorate of Operations, served in the CIA’s Operation’s Center, and established himself as a prolific analyst in the Directorate of Intelligence. In his final year with the CIA he received two Exceptional Performance Awards.
Mr. Johnson is a member of the American Society for Industrial Security. He taught at The American University’s School of International Service (1979-1983) while working on a Ph.D. in political science. He has a M.S. degree in Community Development from the University of Missouri (1978), where he also received his B.S. degree in Sociology, graduating Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa in 1976.

[Scout1071]

85. Big deal.

Larry posted that article almost immediately after the news broke. Larry didn't have any more info than anyone else here and I for one and totally embarrassed this is getting so much play in the progressive blogoshpere.

[cgrindley]

95. Well, whoever he is, I bet he feels pretty fucking dumb now

after the Glasgow incident. oooops. You wanna take back your words?

[burythehatchet]

96. The Glasgow incident? Are you joking? There's a fugging car fire!!

Even BBC won't call it a terrah attack. Only the Corp Media. Jeez, open your eyes.

[cgrindley]

97. The BBC bloody well does call it thus

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

[burythehatchet]

100. here's another link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6257194.stm


"A Whitehall spokesman said the incident was not being treated as a national security threat....

"Eye-witness Richard Grey told BBC News 24: "A green Jeep was in the middle of the doorway burning.

"There was an Asian guy who was pulled out of the car by two police officers, who he was trying to fight off. They've got him on the ground.

"The car didn't actually explode. There were a few pops and bangs which presumably was the petrol."

Stephen Clarkson said he saw people running towards him and "panicking" then noticed a crashed Cherokee jeep..."

[cgrindley]

105. It is so terrorism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6257606.stm

[Malikshah]

104. Oh, you mean the BBC which folded like a 3.00 whore...who won't investigate the mysterious death

of a key witness in the Blair-Bush Liar Tour that led to the Iraq war.

That BBC?

Got some real estate in Brooklyn, if'n anyone's interested.

[cgrindley]

106. Stop being stupid

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6257606.stm

[Malikshah]

107. I have. That's why I wish folks would stop being gullible.

If folks would merely research the actions of both the Blair and Bush actions over the last six years, they might not duct tape their brains.

[Scout1071]

87. I agree with you.

But, there are a lot of DU'ers who don't like people to stray from the group opinion, so be prepared to be flamed endlessly.

[Coexist]

21. "Terror Plot Foiled: MSNBC Ignores It"

Terror Plot Foiled: MSNBC Ignores It
While CNN and Fox News Channel were in breaking news mode early this morning, broadcasting continuous live coverage of the London bomb scare, MSNBC was acting like nothing had happened.

MSNBC's First Look, live at 5am and repeated at 5:30am, barely made mention of the developing story. The top story was yesterday's immigration defeat in Congress.

Anchor Joel Connable was finally forced to mention the terror plot once, when tossing to CNBC Europe for a market update. "The discovery of what police in London are calling an explosive device is having a big effect on the markets there," he said.

But viewers wanting to know more about the "discovery" had to turn to CNN or FNC...

http://www.mediabistro.com:80/tvnewser/msnbc/terror_plot_foiled_msnbc_ignores_it_62091.asp




WTF?!

[Snarkoleptic]

22. Gasoline is NOT explosive OR flammable while in a liquid state.

Gasoline vapors OTOH are quite volatile.
So my question is-
If these vehicles contained gas cans and nails, how were they supposed to do any damage?
How were these vehicles any different from a car on the way from the hardware store?
Remember...Terra, Terra, Terra, Bin-Laden. BOO!

[TX-RAT]

121. Poor attempt at a fuel air bomb?

[Vincardog]

25. Hands up - anyone who believes the truth makes any difference to the FAUX SnewZ "Reporters"

crickets

[Morgana LaFey]

27. Well, the BFEE has to instill the fear of Terrorism into the new PM

I've basically turned the TV off -- or to non-news channels (Food, DIY). Blech. Who neeeds that shit? Not I.

[malaise]

34. Diversion

plus more diversion while the constitution is torn to shreds. Gordon Brown is worse than Poodle. it took him all of two days to come up with this crap.

[KiraBS]

63. What?

Gordon Brown creates a diversion for what exactly?
Two possible explosions in London barely even stopped the traffic, a couple of closed tube stations was the maximum impact, the USA seems to care more than London commuters yesterday.
Sheffield is underwater, the biggest danger to the UK is the weather and more rivers bursting their banks, so what would Gordon Brown "arranging" for a car bomb to be found distract us from?
A new Government? That was still the big story and if anything is getting positive press, especially as this gave the new Home Sec an interesting first day/ The Post Office Strike? The Gay Pride Parade?
The Concert for Diana? Maybe he is part of that conspiracy too.

[LeftishBrit]

114. So I suppose Gordon Brown also caused the floods?

Those have created more 'diversion' than the car bombs.

[Javaman]

35. "disabled the trigger by hand" aka pulled the rag out of the gas can. nt

[XOKCowboy]

39. Well Lets Just See What The Guardian Says.......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2114970,00.html

12.30pm
Gas canister bomb 'an amateur job'

James Sturcke
Friday June 29, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

The builders of the bomb found in central London today would have probably been "keen amateurs", an explosives expert said.

Patio gas cylinders found by police in the light green Mercedes would have been an unlikely weapon for experienced terrorists unless they wanted to create a fireball for the cameras, Sidney Alford, founder of explosives company Alford Technologies, told Guardian Unlimited.

As a readily available combustible material, the propane gas held in such cylinders might be considered by someone unable to source high explosives.

"If you are making a bomb and you are limited in the amount of explosives you can acquire you could easily get some gas cylinders of propane to add to them. They would give a more impressive fireball on TV," he said. "They are probably keen amateurs who could not get their hands on the real thing and do not realise the limits of what they are doing."

BOO! is right.

[aikoaiko]

40. Maybe it is a crock, but if our Feds had arrested Muslims with box cutters on 9-10-01, would ...

...there have been the same doubt?

[Phrogman]

45. That would of been nice.

Thank you for simplifying the thread for me.

[WinkyDink]

68. Foresight is better than hindsight. But pre-crime arrests are the land of sci-fi.

[file83]

57. Considering it wasn't illegal for them to have box cutters back then...

...the Feds would have been hard pressed for a reason to arrest them.

On the other hand, considering they ALL had box cutters, it should have at least raised some concern. The same I guess could be said for someone parking a car with 10 five-gallon cans of gas in it with bags of nails, it's not "illegal" at first glance, but it should raise concerns.

[aikoaiko]

58. Thats my point. A thwarted terrorist attempt might not look like much.

If the Feds had thwarted 9/11, there would be DUers accusing the Feds of making it up to scare the citizenry. Of course things could be made up. I don't know how to tell the difference.

[WinkyDink]

66. Were box-cutters illegal possessions on 9/10/01? WTH???

Ask your President why he didn't read his own briefing titled, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside US."

And the POINT is NOT that "terror plots" ought not be foiled; it is that such "plots" not necessarily be attributed AUTOMATICALLY to the Big, Bad Al-Qaeda.

[AZBlue]

93. You know it! Certain DUers would have been pooh-poohing the whole "plot"

It's too scary for them to accept the truth.

[BenDavid]

44. Twas a good way for the blair

replacement to be the top of the news and the folks of England getting to see how he handles this situation.... A rather fortuitous timing of this I might say ole chap.....
Of course CNN and Faux ran this story all day....I am so reminded of that line from V for Vendetta."What we need right now is a clear message to the people of this country. This message must be read in every newspaper, heard on every radio, seen on every television... I want *everyone* to *remember*, why they *need* us!"
uh huh...Just do your job and let others do theirs and not broadcast anything....
Scare the sheeple.....but even though these networks do this the opinion of bush will not change....

I get so upset when the right wing says, "we have not been attacked since 911" They are proud of that....Gee, what about the first attack in February 1993 at the WTC...Did you see the Clinton folks run out to the cameras and blame the father bush for this? hell no.....so lets see from february 1993 to september 11, 2001 is a good record as well....
Then the right will come back and say those embasseys were attacked...Well I will say that 3,577 soldiers were attacked by terrorists....

Last September, Rudy said: "The idea of trying to cast blame on President Clinton is just wrong for many, many reasons, not the least of which is I don't think he deserves it," but now he does?Because you're dropping like a wet safe in the polls? The truth is, Clinton caught the first WTC bastards and they're rotting in prison right now. And Clinton told Bush that Osama was his piggest problem, so what did Bush do? He went on vacation and ignored the PDB that said, "Osama is coming - soon." What did Bush do after Osama killed 3,000 people? He swore he'd bring Osama to justice...but instead, he forgot about Osama and invaded Iraq so he could murder Saddam and steal his oil. Rudy knows that, he just being a whore.

I do thank you
Ben David

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Oddity here

Private cars aren't even ALLOWED in central London unless they pay a "congestion charge," so either that car was there illegally or the cops could already trace who it was.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. And the number plate allows the car to be traced as well

Perhaps more relevant is that cameras set up to run the congestion charge system by recording number plates means the route of the car can be traced too - certainly where and when it entered the zone, and possibly other points too.

[file83]

56. I wonder if there was one of those "speaking cameras" at the scene...

"Good evening sir, you who just parked that old Mercedes on the verge. Say, could I get you to be a good sport and please move it along? Sir, why are you running away? Bollocks, why are there so many petrol cans inside your car? Sir, by authority of the Queen, I order you to...oh bugger, the dodgy little character has run off."

[KiraBS]

64. No Congestion Charge after 6pm......

http://www.cclondon.com/infosearch/dynamicPages/WF_ZoneCheck_W.aspx

And there are cameras around there, it is a major tourist area Haymarket.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gabi Hayes]

52. and your expertise is?

thank you

[KiraBS]

62. From London....

It always seems that the US media is more concerned with this car bomb, than the British. They always seem to over dramatise.
The coverage in London was very low key yesterday, Wimbledon still played, people went to work and went shopping, the disruption was minimal apart from the area cordoned off. London has had car bombs before, killing politicians on our streets.
This is the BBC coverage http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6253418.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6256386.stm

This is a week were people are losing their homes to flooding, we have a new government and the smoking ban comes into force, those are the things people are talking about. We also had a postal strike yesterday which was the lead story most of the day.
This weekend London is host to Wimbledon, Gay Pride Parade and The Concert of Diana, all of which are happening. As for Gordon Brown being warned since on his first full day in office two British troops from his own constituency have been killed in Iraq and his second day could have been marred by carnage on our streets. Yet he has put the first Muslim "Parliamentary Under Secretary of State: Shahid Malik*" into his Government, so he is sending his own message.

[LeftishBrit]

72. Quite so...

The local media here has been more concerned with the major floods in some parts of Britain, the postal strike, Wimbledon, and Brown's government appointments. The car bomb certainly features as well, but it doesn't seem to preoccupy people here all that much! On DU specifically, there were threads about it on GD at least 24 hours before one appeared on the UK forum.

[KiraBS]

81. Exactly....

It is the American media that is panicked about this not ours. In a week when thousands have lost their homes and the rain seems unending, a bomb scare is a small story to anyone outside London.
The smoking ban which starts tomorrow has had more coverage and debate this week, there is nothing for Gordon Brown to distract us from.

[pettypace]

117. A Muslim in the executive hierarchy?

You've got to be kidding...how progressive is England nowadays. Couldn't imagine what year that would occur in the U.S.

[WinkyDink]

65. I wonder why the IRA, Baader-Meinhof, the Red Brigades, and even Black September never

required a WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST?

No; it took DICK CHENEY to mastermind THIS one, and the concomitant destruction of personal liberty and privacy.

Yet somehow, Baader, Meinhof, the 1972 Olympic massacre killers, etc., were found and captured/killed. Whatever happened to those police methods?

DON'T WE WANT TO GET BIN-LADEN??

Uh, that would be a negative.

EDIT: I was in London with a group of my students about the time Libyan terrorists had a confrontation with Security forces, leading to the shooting death of a British policewoman. As soon as the episode/siege ended, we were allowed to walk RIGHT PAST that building in St. James Park, with only a minimum of police presence.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2110088,00.html

People weren't totally paranoid in those days.

[Strelnikov_]

79. Because the countries they came from

did not have any appreciable supply of petroleum.

- Nearly 70% of the worlds remaining petroleum and 40% of natural gas reserves are located in the Middle East. If we throw in the Caspian Region, which is predominately Muslim, we probably approach 80%/60% of remaining reserves in predominately Muslim regions.

- By maintaining a constant state of tension, high petroleum prices can be explained away as a temporary spike due to politics. This way, the publics attention can kept from the accelerating supply problems worldwide, thus preventing them from starting to make other arrangements for a post-carbon world (they can't have the addicts kicking too soon).

- Whoever controls the remaining (cheap) petroleum reserves stands to make a fortune in the years immediately following the peak of production. Even the most optimistic scenarios indicate it would take twenty years to mitigate the loss of petroleum production following peak. During this period of transition, the 'addicts' will have no choice but to pay, and pay, and pay.

- The demonization of Muslims to raise ‘fear of the other’ to a high state is needed to desensitize the public to the wars of aggression and carnage required to seize and/or maintain hegemony over these resources.


Remember, its only 'terra' when it can be traced back to someone from a country or region with economically viable oil.

And remember, all Muslims are interconnected, kinda like the Borg. So if a band of whack jobs, espousing an extreme version of their religion, and who have been run out of numerous countries, launch an attack from a failed state without oil, it obviously means that all Muslim countries are now fair game (except for the ones that are petrostates in our petrounion, of course, like the one that most of the attackers actually came from).


We'll see how long the story is front and center if it turns out to be a plot by IRA types.

[LeftishBrit]

94. Well, the Middle East would have been a bit remote from the IRA scene!

..Then again, Iraq was a bit remote from Bin Laden.

[WinkyDink]

103. Libya was a wee bit closer, in ideology. And Black September were Arabs.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Yes, Black September was indeed to do with the Middle East

But the IRA and Baader-Meinhof certainly weren't.

[Philosoraptor]

67. New P.M., new terror threats.

[spanone]

70. CNN shamelessly reported how many people COULD HAVE been injured.

this ain't fucking news...it's bullshit.

[Coexist]

78. I just posted the video of Larry on Countdown if you want to watch

what he has to say about the issue

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x37385

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

80. I was thinking about this, yesterday. I was actually afraid to put those thoughts down,...

,...in writing. Why? Because I figured the mere suggestion that, such an ineffective means of creating a car bomb could be acted upon by any dumb person, might get me in trouble.

But, think about it: 40 - 50 gallons of gas plus a bunch of nails? Doesn't that seem almost BEYOND mere amateurishness to you?

:shrug:

The incident smells like another fear-mongering tactic, to me,...no matter WHO is wielding that fear mongering.

btw: exactly what does a "suspicious-looking car" LOOK LIKE?

[malaise]

83. Even more crap is the car accident at the

Glasgow airport.


I swear this is all diversion. No need to discuss the Supremes, Cheney, Gonzo, Bush and whatever else do not discuss Sicko.

Sicko is the most appropriate title for all these hacks.

[Kip Humphrey]

86. When, "Don't worry. If it goes off it won't do any damage" applies, I become suspicious

[donsu]

89. agree

nt

[Andre II]

90. News

"The first car, in Haymarket, was a metallic green Mercedes packed with petrol, gas cannisters and nails, and was defused after police were alerted by an ambulance crew called to an incident at a nearby nightclub in the early hours of Friday morning."
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1272910,00.html

And I thought bystanders reacted cause the car drove erratically and there was smoke inside??

The second bomb was in a car that was illegally parked nearby and towed to the Park Lane car pound.

Staff there alerted police because "it smelled of gas."

(...)

It was issued with a parking ticket at around 2:30am on Friday before being towed to the Park Lane car pound where staff alerted police."
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1272910,00.html

Now that's great.
Park your car with explosives inside, buy a ticket and wait till the car is towed away.
That's really al Qaeda stylish I'd say!


Btw
Two cars and still we don't have any names do we?
Why?
Either the cars aren't stolen then it should be easy to look for the carholder
or the cars have been stolen then why isn't this mentioned anyway.
Why one day later we don't have any CCTV images. And this in the center of the city with the highest number of CCTV cameras in the world?
Just like 7/7: No images of the so called terrorists inside London

[AZBlue]

92. Um, the gas was in canisters, not in the fuel tank.

That's just one of the many obvious holes in your "theories."

Just 'cause the media overplays these incidents and the Bush administration uses them to their advantage, doesn't mean the plots and terror don't exist. It's scary to accept, but you're going to have to face reality at some point.

[newspeak]

99. I'll go with FDR

"There is nothing to fear but fear itself." The timing is priceless-right when Tony steps down. It reminds me of that tape of OBL before the election saying how he warned the American people not to vote for *. Of course, that helped someone--ummm, maybe *. How convenient!!!! Well, someone definitely has been profitting on the grand "war on Terror. Let's see, AQ has more recruits, is more recognized, kind of "catapulting their propoganda" to those who have watched a people and their country destroyed. *'s little corporate friends are making moolah big time. Yep, some people are profitting-but it ain't the majority of the American people, and it ain't the Iraqis!!!!

So, if we are fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here--are we counting Great Britain as there or here? Inquiring minds want to know.

[AZBlue]

109. Actually, I don't agree with or believe that quote from Bush. And you're assuming a lot that's false

"So, if we are fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here--are we counting Great Britain as there or here? Inquiring minds want to know." You'll have to figure that out for yourself because you made quite a large and, honestly, stupid leap there. You're assuming that because I don't think Bush & Co masterminded the incidents in London and Glasgow that somehow I support the "war" in Iraq? Huh??? And, as from that quote from Bush, well, I think we're actually fighting them there so his cabal can make money here - and there.

I'm just admitting that there are groups of people in this world who hate the US and Britain and who are terrorists and follow those attributed ways of violence and protest. Their hate has only grown because of the Iraq invasion. And, attacking after a new PM takes over makes perfect sense to me - it's a reminder from them to get out of Iraq. They are hoping a new government means a new direction for them.

But you go ahead and believe what you want about me and my beliefs. You will anyway.

[newspeak]

116. kind of defensive aren't you?

I really wasn't responding to you. However, I do not think * or a nefarious James Bond masterminded the incident-I am saying it is well timed-a transition between one PM to another. Nice of you to jump to conclusions. And, I shall question whether our "allies" are considered sitting ducks for terrorists because of their alliance with us in regards to our actions in Iraq. And yes, I do believe that tape of OBL before the last election was very well timed.

[Common Sense Party]

118. I think the rabid and completely justified hatred people have of *

here on DU often blinds them to the very real threat that terrorists DO pose to innocent people around the world.

Every time there is a terror attack somewhere, the DU instant response is: "It's all fake. They're just trying to scare the sheeple. Bush is trying to save his poll numbers, etc."

Real wackos with real hatred are doing things to try to murder real innocent people.

Just because *Co. capitalizes on this reality, and manipulates and distorts it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I'm completely with you.

[nealmhughes]

98. I used to go to the NYC FD School in Rockaway every summer for a week for recert.

One of the demonstrations they did for us is to put one coffee cup full of gasoline on the upholstery of a car. Ignite. Leave. Wait 5 mins. The entire interior will be engulfed with a ferocity one has to see and feel to believe, if the windows are cracked, of course. After the fire begins in earnest, there is no glass left and the exterior of the car is of an indeterminate color.

The film we had to watch was that of a BLEVE, a "boiling liquid exploding" fire. That is when a continer of a normally gas or liquid is heated to a high degree of heat, yet the container does not melt. Instead, as the liquid/gas expands from the heat it finally explodes the canister and the fire around it is now ready for a second violent fire, that is where the nails come in: by setting a car on fire and having canisters of gasoline within the car and then allowing them to rapidly heat, they could explode and a chain reaction of the others begin until there was flying shapranel and gas containers and glass everywhere in the area.

Sophisticated, no. Do-able, most def.

p.s. John Fatta, a long time Capt. taught me and I take Fatta at his word!

[ohio2007]

108. Isn't this an op ed blog article? Not really breaking news forum

just saying

[Cobalt-60]

120. My grandmother could craft a better car bomb

This is a clumsy effort whether genuine or false flag.
I'm leaning toward false flag.