S.D. elementary at center of dispute (prayer in school)

[Squatch]

Link

A San Diego public school has become part of a national debate over religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned an Arabic language program that gives Muslim students time for prayer during school hours.

Carver Elementary in Oak Park added Arabic to its curriculum in September when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly Somali Muslims.

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An investigation by the San Diego Unified School District failed to substantiate the allegations. But critics continue to assail Carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate Muslim students who wish to pray. (Those who don't pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.)

Some say the arrangement at Carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. Others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.

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[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I'd have to side with the critics on this one

As a teacher, prayer in school comes up a lot in our conversations. And every time it does, I point out that to allow Christian prayer means we have to allow Jewish prayer and Muslim prayer and any other prayers that our community asks for. And we just don't have the time to stop 6 times a day for kids to pray.

Besides, it's unconstitutional. :)

[wuushew]

3. Why do schools allow religious observance days then?

At least be consistent

[Squatch]

4. Good question.

(Although I am *all for* more time off from school/work)

[dmallind]

6. sorry need help here

Do you mean normal Federal vacation days? Or do (some) schools give off time for other observations? Is it for all kids? Does it count as an absence? I mean if the parents want to keep a kid out of school for Purim or whatever that's up to them just like you can keep a kid home to go on a family vacation one day early. But the two should be counted the same - as an excused absence, not as a separate class for religious absences.

[wuushew]

8. I was thinking of Jewish holidays

Yom Kippur perhaps. I'm not sure though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Good point

In my district, we call it Winter Vacation instead of Christmas. I think that is fairly standard now. So by changing the language, they aren't allowing a religious holiday.

[wuushew]

12. Except that with Xmas and Easter everybody gets off

so it is egalitarian in that sense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. But they call it Winter Vacation, not Christmas Vacation

And from what I understand, when a student takes off for a religious holiday, we still count it as an absence. In our state, if you are absent 20 days in a year, you are retained. So we tell our parents that if they want to take their kids out of school for a religious holiday, they have to be sure not to exceed 20 days.

[WinkyDink]

31. Because of the high absentee rate ANYWAY that would occur.

Same reason my school district allows the Monday after Thanksgiving: It's the beginning of hunting season here.

[churchofreality]

5. This is great! Normally the repubs would be pissed about this

But since its Muslims, they can't argue for it!

[unpossibles]

7. no, there is a difference

between forcing kids to pray and allowing them to pray. This is not an endorsement of a religion, bt a break where people are allowed to practice their religion or to simply do nothing.

I am not religious at all, but I have no problem with allowing people to practice whatever as long as no religion is endorsed by the school or teacher specifically.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. I understand what you mean

My point is that with the demands placed upon our curriculum by No Child Left Behind, we just don't have the time to stop and let kids pray. We don't even have recess anymore. I know I would fight to get that back if my school district decided we needed to take time to stop and pray.

[unpossibles]

15. true. I would rather they had time to play music or art or something n/t

[hfojvt]

18. No recess?

That's amazing. And disgusting.

Plus I thought part of the point of recess was to let the little jumping beans burn off some of their excess energy so they would/could concentrate more. So has recess been replaced by ritalin?

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. No time for recess

They now dictate a strict schedule which does not include recess.

[hfojvt]

27. What about physical fitness and burning off excess energy?

There is always time for the things that are considered important. Plus in my day most of us walked to school and played outside afterwards. I think there is less of that now.

I also dislike the words (and concepts) of 'dictate' and 'strict'. It doesn't sound like things are getting better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. PE is required in MO

but only for an hour a week.

[AllegroRondo]

21. kids already may pray any time they like

as long as they do not interrupt the class or others. Why do they need a special time set aside for it?

I would think the religious would be *against* set times for prayer, as it implies that this is the only time kids may pray.

[unpossibles]

25. well, I may be wrong, but don't Muslims require prayers to face Mecca and kneel?

I'm not defending religion in school, but I am defending everyone's right to their own beliefs.

[dmallind]

2. Pretty cut and dried really.

Yes it is special treatment and yes it does cross the line.

Same reasons as would apply for the ever so innocent sounding "moment of silence" Christian sneak-prayer idea. Kids of any faith can pray at school whenever they have a break, and that's as it should be.

No double standards for any religion.

[unpossibles]

9. I thought the ACLU allows for moments of silence

as long as they are not specific to any religion. And that students are allowed to pray, but teachers/schools are not allowed to lead a prayer.

They are not the same. hell, I am an atheist-leaning agnostic, but have no problem at all with moments of silence as long as prayer is not forced upon anyone.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. That's what I thought

a moment of silence, not imposed prayer.

I don't know of any school that punishes a kid for praying during a moment of silence.

And if we say no, that would foster the establishment of religion, then doesn't that mean we force Jehovah's Witnesses to say the Pledge of Allegience? The only reason they don't do it is for religious reasons.

[riderinthestorm]

23. A moment of silence is quite different than a 15 minute chunk out of the school day

for prayer.

Also the JW's not saying the pledge doesn't impact the day's workload like a 15 minute break would.

I've helped out in my kids' classes since they started going to school and since NCLB has been enacted, teachers are under enormous pressure to get everything taught that needs teaching on any given workday. I know 15 minutes/day doesn't seem like much but the teacher's I've worked with wouldn't be too happy with that much time cut out of their available teaching time - especially for prayer.

[dmallind]

26. But the MoS is often a Trojan Horse

It would not take a week before the kids all spent their moment of silence with heads bowed and hands clasped together in traditional Xian prayer mode then ostracized and bullied the few who did not.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. Kindly cite sources

that show this has happened in schools. I'm curious to see if it really has. I know that when Reagan was shot, our principal called for a moment of silence. As I recall, non of my students bowed their heads or clasped their hands as you indicate--and I was teaching in a Bible belt town at the time.

[dmallind]

33. Well Wallace v Jaffree for a start

That law pretty much (and stupidly) was written expressly as a way to get around school prayer bans, and as such was deemed unconstitutional. The whole point of constitutional challenges to the MoS is to avoid this happeneing, so it's rather disingenuous to ask for examples of where it HAS. That would be like asking when mandatory school prayer has caused problems. The very existence of it is the problem. To my knowledge MoS laws have generally been struck down but I'm not a law researcher or expert so it's possible there are some active laws on the books we could look at. I think VA is still undergoing appeal.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Does that mean we force Jehovah's Witnesses to say the pledge then?

I mean, Witnesses believe that is worshipping a graven image, and so they don't say the pledge. So we should make them say it, since otherwise we are catering to their religion?

[IndyJones]

14. They don't have time for that crap in the schools in SD.

The schools need every minute of the day for instruction purposes. The scores are so low that they really shouldn't be giving time for anything extracurricular like this, regardless of what religion.

School time is for school instruction, not to observe every religious and cultural ideology out there.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Why are the scores low?

Just curious. Could it be because of culturally biased tests? (Seeing as you mentioned SD, I had to ask, since there is a large Native American population in that state.) Are schools really teaching any more or are they simply teaching to the test? The last time I taught in public schools, it was in Texas, and that is exactly what they were doing. They didn't care if the kids learned to think on their own--more important they learned which circle to color in.

[IndyJones]

20. greatschools.net gives a good detail if you want to look.

[moggie]

22. What grade do SD elementary schools end at?

Sorry, I'm not too familiar with US education, and I believe the age boundaries vary by state anyway. As I understand it (someone correct me if I'm wrong), prayer at prescribed times is only compulsory for Muslims above the age of puberty.

[kwolf68]

30. Im for keeping all this shit out of schools

be it muslim, hindu, christian, vishnu, the fat oriental guy, whoever...

As soon as we give concessions to muslims for taking 10 minites to pray looking in a certain direction, then we'll be speaking in tongues and that Becky Bitch from Jesus Camp will be our education secretary.

If your God exists, he hears you if you're taking a shit. So, get a hallpass to go to the toilet and pray then. Pray at lunch...there is ALL KINDS of free time at school. You can pray and it's your right, do it. Shit, I don't even mind having a "praying section" the way schools used to have "smoking sections".

However, when the class door closes, I want EDUCATIONAL enrichment.

[BlooInBloo]

32. But of course, they're FINE with christian prayer in school.