Michael Moore slams US Voting (video link) – Says Look to Canada – Hand Counted Paper Ballots

[autorank]

Moore on HARDBALL

Michael Moore was on Hardball this evening. He was asked if he thought America was ripe for a
revolution. He said, NO.

Then he said we need a revolution at the polls and we need to know that our elections are really
meaningful (transcript not available yet but VIDEO UP NOW

He went on to question the viability of our election system and said Canada had a better alternative –
HAND COUNTED PAPER BALLOTS That's what Kucinich proposes in H.R.6200=>
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0611/S00399.htm">PAPER for President. The Time is Now

Canada’s Federal elections have Hand Counted Paper Ballots. They are precise and effective.
The main complaints about elections are the introduction of computerized voting US style.

In anticipation of the defenders of optical scans as “paper ballots” (which they’re not), let me say:

1) Kucinich’s House Resolution 6200 calls for Hand Counted Paper Ballots for presidential
elections, which would be a system very much like Canada.
2) We’ve had problems with presidential elections.
3) In addition, despite periods of mechanization, e.g. lever machines, punch cards (IBM), we have
periods where hand counting was done on a large scale in large states. We survived!

THANK YOU MICHAEL MOORE FOR “SICKO” AND FOR THE
GREAT ADVOCACY FOR FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS

Hand Counted Paper Ballots Resources:
Articles
"Paper Vote Canada" Blog
Canada's Paper Ballot System

Election 2004: The Urban Legend

Election 2004:Link
Word doc download
Suitable to send to your Members of Congress

[bonito]

1. This goes to the root of every issue in this country

:hi: :kick:

[autorank]

2. You're so right. Moore said it so easily, clearly...

If he ever does an elections documentary, which he will, it will be amazing.

Thank God for Michael Moore

:hi:

[Stevepol]

3. I'm blown away that MM finally is starting to get it. Maybe his next movie???

Nah! That's too much to hope for, but at least he gets it. If he would do a movie about the voting machine scam and con game in the US of A, he could change the course of history and bring about a real single-payer health care system without the private iinsurance companies running the show. And he would bring about a lot of other things too, PEACE for starters.

[autorank]

5. Stevepol, my esteemed colleague and friend...

... I'll bet that he does a film on elections. The issue is too tricky to be anything other than
consumed so I think he's waited. Maybe this comment was a hint at "coming attractions."

He was sure clear on paper ballots. The transcript is going to be up at some point.

Nice one for you to run;)

Here's one about a GREAT DUer running a Hand Counted Paper Ballot initiative
in Missouri - turn the whole state to paper. It WILL happen.

Thanks galloglas!!!

Missouri Activists Say “Show Me The Vote” - Voting Rights Initiative Announced 28 Feb 2007

[defendandprotect]

4. What more can we ask of Michael Moore . . I know, run for President--- !!!!

Cindy Sheehan for VP --

[autorank]

6. I'll go for that ticket...I say, lets ask him.

He'd be a great president. Lots of every day people, Americans who are neither famous or
rich or powerfl...but who form the backbone of our country.

Hey, Michael Moore - "Go for it! Run, win, save the planet & Flint, MI too!

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Except that hand counted ballots have been among...

the most fraudulant ballot systems.

I suppose nobody remembers when ballot boxes were regularly stuffed and the "wrong" ballots were defaced and rejected? And the counts took forever, especially when they were honest.

ALL voting systems are subject to fraud. Personally having worked on lever machines, even though there are possibilities for fraud they are pretty damn accurate and secure with some very simple controls.

[John Q. Citizen]

10. It's much harder to do wide spread large scale fraud with paper ballots.

The opportunity and the sheer number make it a better vehicle for local fraud not nationwide fraud.

And with decent proceedures and poll watchers, it makes it harder still.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. It's hard to do that with most systems...

and would local fraud be any more acceptable than national fraud?

Actually, aside from all that local fraud, I've always been far more worried about various dirty tricks and gerrymandering than actual vote count problems.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. The computers make fraud a snap. They were built to be used that way. Sure there are

lots of ways to manipulate elections. But apparently somebody thought they needed more better newer ways.

Paper ballots are at least cheap, and if poll watchers enforce the chain of custody provisions, it's hard to get the chance to stuff the boxes. Using numbered ballots and cross checking the poll book signitures with the number of votes cast also makes fraud harder.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Joker Poker games set up as voting...

machines are ridiculous, and proprietary software is out of the question. I once wrote cash register software that did everything a voting machine does, including give you a receipt and an audit trail in five pages of QuickBasic code and some Procomm scripts. That program could easily be modified to a be voting machine.

However, moreso than fraud, proprietary software is there as added value to turn a $300 computer into a $6,000 voting machine. But yeah, whether or not fraud actually does exist, it should ber easy to check. I suspect much of the "fraud" we've seen is merely sloppy programming. One hint is to see if the questionable numbers are divisible by 8.

Anyway, I still don't like paper ballots and my experience as an inspector on my county's Board of Elections with the lever machines has been fraud and mistake free. Yes, the machines can wear and drop votes, and you could conceivably pay a mechanic to shave a gear to drop 10% of the other's guy's votes. But, that ain't happening too often-- too many other ways to cheat long before you get to the ballot. And the possible mistakes, to say nothing of all-nighters, counting all those piles of votes by hand is something we just don't want to deal with.

You do realize that after 15 hours of the polls being open, we then have to START the counting-- and no one can leave until everything is counted and it adds up properly and we all sign off on it. And there's those pollwatchers sticking their noses in there while we're trying to count. Hand count yourself, bigshot, we ain't about to go back to that when we have a system that works.

Quite frankly, in my experience fraud in vote counting has been far less of a problem than than the other things that go on in elections.

[bvar22]

43. Dennis' Bill also calls for

live video Inet surveillance in addition to public hand counts at the precinct with the posting of the count on the precinct door.
It will ba a little harder to stuff a ballot box with today's surveillance equipment.

[Octafish]

8. Goes to the heart of Democracy.

We the People should be the ones who count the votes -- NOT Republican campaign donors.

Thank you for a great post, autorank. KR4.

[FogerRox]

9. Good on ya MM

[tuvor]

11. For accuracy's sake: Not *all* Canadian elections are hand-counted.

In our last (BC) provincial election optical scanners were used, and I distinctly recall a Diebold logo on it.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Moore's comments about Canadian elections are...

within the margin of error for Moore's comments.

I like Moore being out there leading the charge, but I do wish he'd give the other side fewer easy targets.

[autorank]

23. He's not giving them targets, he's speaking to their concerns

Here's one reason to be concerned, fraud on a massive scale is suspected for a number of reasons

Election 2004: The Urban Legend

Then look here

Beginners Guide to 2004

and here (left column)

Election Fraud News

and tell me you're not concerned.

These people steal everything. Where there's an opportunity to do so, they will, if it's to their advantage. Winning in 2004 was mandatory. They'd be in jail by now if they hadn't.

I agree about gerrymandering, voter suppression, etc.

It's all important but election fraud, the stuff to do with the votes, is very important.



Why else would they make up anything as ridiculous as "voter fruad", the non existent problem.
Here are stats for that, 6 cases a year of "voter fraud" from DOJ. They spend tons of time on that
only to avoid real problems.

[galloglas]

12. k and R !!

These electonic secret vote counting machines are making me Sicko.

[Kurovski]

13. K&R

How will we know that the Wetzelbill/Kurovski ticket lost fair and square without full accountability?

HCPB.

[Swamp Rat]

14. I'll count the votes.

You can't lose! ;)

[Kurovski]

17. I'm making some voting machines

out of banana boxes and old 8-track tape players.

I should have enough finished by the primaries.

[autorank]

24. If Kurovski gets in he says I can be chairman of the Federal Reserve

He also said I could walk off a cliff too but I'll take the banker job.

:hi:

[Kurovski]

27. You're spreading rumors!!

That's good, we like rumors.

[emlev]

18. I just watched I think 14 minutes, the whole posted video--no HCPB

Is it only part of the video that's posted? When did he say it?
The part I watched ended with Moore debating a young woman about health care.

[autorank]

25. Watch the whole thing.

He was asked if he thought there would be a revolution in this country because people were so
frustrated. He says NO and it's after that.

[emlev]

33. Sorry to be unclear--what I watched was the whole thing that was...

available from the link. It seems I missed part of it. Where do I find the rest?
I was asking for help, not complaining. Guess I didn't make that clear.

[eridani]

19. That's HCPB for president only

Makes sense, as it is a single race. That doesn't solve any problems for my legislative district, though. We have parts of 5 different cities, 4 county coucil districts and 3 congressional districts.

I strongly suspect that people advocating HCPB for an entire slate are utterly ignorant of the actual processes involved in running an election in the urban US>

[autorank]

26. You might be surprised.

We used to do it. When they stopped all the violence and so forth at polling places, the job got done.

There are a number of hand counted paper ballot systems out there that build on the pre machine experience to a degree. They're pretty interesting.

The fact that it's even an issue is due to neglect on our part over time.

I remember hearing about "spoiled" ballots years ago, every election. What bull shit that is.

Check this out. Amazing...about how off target the legislation was to solve the "problems of Florida" - really cynical.

The First One's Free ...the you pay

I didn't do anything about it until the last few years so I'm including my self in the "neglect on our part."

Keep an open mind on the urban voting. See what they have to say.

Something has to be done thought, this is getting to be absurd.

[eridani]

40. Could you please comment on my specific situation?

I live in a state legislative district containing parts of five different cities, four county council districts and three congressional districts. How are we supposed to sort out all these races. In my precinct cluster, we've never gotten an exact correlation of ballot numbers with sign-in sheets, ever. Granted that the error rate is low (a discrepancy of 3 or 4 per 4000 voters), but if we can't even do that, how are we supposed to handle all those overlapping contests?

[Senator]

22. K&R

[GliderGuider]

28. re: Elections Canada

(FYI, I'm GG's partner using his login.)

I'm a consultant and I've had a few contracts with Elections Canada, the federal agency that manages electoral events including general elections, by-elections and referenda. One of the feathers in my professional cap is the production of the suite of documents used by Returning Officers, the people who run elections at the constituency level.

There is a culture of unassailable integrity at head office. This is the one workplace where I've kept my political affiliations under wraps because any taint of partisanship is quickly dealt with.

The agency is federally funded but NO ONE in elected office has any say in the day-to-day operation. They can change legislation, such as bringing in pre-determined elections days (IMO yuck!), but they cannot interfere in things like changing riding boundaries which would lead to allegations of gerrymandering.

When I hear about how your elections are run by private companies that turn a profit on the democratic process, that you have party leadership (Florida, Ohio -- ferchrissakes!) counting votes, I actually feel a wave of nausea.

Harper replaced Chief Electoral Officer Jean-Pierre Kingsley in February. You guys would do well to court him.

[autorank]

35. Thanks for this insight. Very helpful.

The integrity of the system serves all parties unless one party wants to stay in control forever.

That's the case here.

Very good policy to have people not discuss politics in that part of the government. Building
organizational integrity like that maintains a culture over time.

Who could have better neighbors than we do?

[Lisa]

47. Another Canadian here -- I've taken part in hand-counts on federal election day

I've been a scrutineer at the polls, and later been present when the Elections Canada people open up the boxes. For me it's an intensely moving experience. You get to see ordinary people running an election. By the end of the day, the representatives from the individual parties are frequently sharing food and water around (as we did when our opponent's HQ forgot to send lunch to the scrutineers at our polling station). The Conservative rep at our poll was a first-timer who was still in high school and hadn't been briefed well, and the Liberal and I went through the EC list with him, explaining what our duties as participants were (what you can and can't do).

Nice to meet you, GG's pal!

[Locrian]

29. caging

Don't forget about caging. It doesn't matter how you count the vote if you cant actually vote.

[autorank]

31. Absolutely, its pre registration-election day-counting-scheming in between

The value of winning the presidency, Congress is so great, this is a year round business, fixing
these elections to come out right (for the "money party").

Thanks for the reminder.

[Kurovski]

30. Kick.

:kick:

[Me.]

32. Not Paper Ballots

But NYS has decided to keep the lever machines for the simple reason that they work and can be trusted.

[autorank]

34. New York State played this really well.

They knew the deal from the Feds and they dared them to take them to court.

I'd put the NY A.G.'s office up against the US DoJ any day of the week and they'd
win every day.

Nice move by the "Empire State";)

[GliderGuider]

36. for people who like to read gov't policy docs

There is some discussion here about paper ballots being just as easily corrupted as electronic systems.
It's a long slog, but that 3rd link under Hand Counted Paper Ballots Resources, Canada's Paper Ballot System contains everything you ever wanted to know about federal electoral events in Canada but were afraid to ask.

The section on Electoral Rights might interest you. It explains who's qualified to vote and who isn't. This bit is so rigorously enforced, that it is held up as an example all over the world.

The bit that I find really different from the American system is the http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=loi&document=part04&dir=leg/fel/cea&lang=e&textonly=false">Register of Electors which describes the voters list. You will notice that nowhere does it mention a voter's party affiliation or, God forbid!, race. IIRC, your voters lists include both.

And someone mentioned that BC uses electronic voting. We had municipal elections in November here in Ontario and we also used optical scanners. The difference is that the scans allow for instant results at the end of polling day. The ballots are still hand-counted to maintain accuracy.

All federal electoral events use hand-counted paper ballots.

[autorank]

37. Good point!!!

That's what Moorre was talking about. Their system works, nobody complains about those elections and you have humans doing it. I'm all for efficiency but there are times when it's not the prime value.
Would you like to talk to a computer when you have a medical problem or a doctor? I could go on but I
won't.

It's all about KNOWING that the system is honest. We don't know, the leaders have no way to show
that they were elected, therefore we're headed for a big crisis, all for nothing. We need to just
fix it.

[applegrove]

38. Problem is that in Canada we don't vote for anyone but the local candidate. No judges or

other local officials end up on the ballot. It is a simply one question "which person do you want to represent your riding in the election".

In the USA your ballots are so complicated. Perhapsh you should have a single paper ballot for US Presidential vote - and put the rest on the computer.

[Spazito]

39. That's not quite accurate, I have had to vote for the Mayor, Council, School Board and

a local initiative in one election. It was very simple I was given 4 different coloured ballots and once I had voted there were 4 boxes, one for each coloured ballot.

The same could happen in the US, imo.

I also participated in the democratic process as a scrutineer in the last municipal election where I lived. I was there to watch on behalf of a school board candidate (he won, yessss, lol) and there were tables set up with volunteer counters for the votes for Mayor, Council, School Board. There are three counters to ensure the count is accurate, if at the end of the count, any of the three counters figures don't match the other two, they re-count. Scrutineers sit right at the table watching to ensure the count is accurate.

Edited to add: The ballot boxes DO NOT leave the voting place until AFTER the count is complete.

[applegrove]

41. But when you voted for the federal government in Canada it was only one ballot - right?

[Spazito]

42. Yes, as could be the ballot for the President/Vice President

with a different ballot for the Senate and another for the House. It is only because we do not have a separate election for Prime Minister that we do not have two ballots. The point being there is not a great complication in voting with paper ballots if an election has more than one position being up for election as I pointed out using the municipal election process I participated in that had such a multiple ballot (positions/issues).

[eridani]

44. No, the same could not happen in the US

At least not in my state legislative district, which has parts of five different cities, four different county council districts and three different congressional districts. Elections for these are held concurrently.

[Spazito]

45. Why not? Are you saying you have to go to multiple polling

places to cast your votes or are you saying you have to vote for all these various councils, etc, using one ballot ( or electronic voting)? Why could you not have paper ballots:

1 per county council = 4
1 per congressional district = 3 for Senate, 3 for House

and so on

Maybe I am misunderstanding how you vote on all of these, I would appreciate it if you would give more detail on how you currently vote on the above, thanks.

[eridani]

49. We currently vote on them on one ballot

King County has more than 1000 different ballot formats. As a poll worker, I've never turned in a perfect correlation with sign-ins and total number of ballots. We use optical scanning, and can count the ballots as well as read the tape. There is always a discrepancy of 3 or 4 out of 4000 or so ballots. That's a low percentage error which compares favorably with the measured 0.1% error for HCPB.

It would be a totally unreal horror show to have not only 10 different ballots, but all those different configurations as well. We'd never get enough people to do it right.

[helderheid]

46. MM's next film needs to be about the media and our voting machines.

[JCMach1]

48. And so what if it takes days to count the vote... Democracy ain't take-out food...