This is my fourth and last time -

[Joe for Clark]

Watch the north in Iraq - now.

This is going to blow. Now.

You can surely do what you will with that - (if my kid was circing back- I'd break his arm to keep him out for a few weeks, personally).

I am sure the army would not appreciate that last comment - but it is true.

And screw the army - cause they screwed those kids anyway. Incompetent bastards.

This is going to come down - and it is going to happen. If I was a betting man - I'd bet the initial blow was coming within 72 hours - Just south of Kirkuk.

This is it I think -

Joe

[ruiner4u]

1. yet another rant...

im going to kick this in 72 hours... You need an intervention.. You need to chill.. You need to stop...

[Forkboy]

3. Put him on ignore and chill yourself.

Damn...

[ruiner4u]

6. your right

why should people on here try to be sensible.. ill just ignore it and it will keep happining ad nasuem

[Richard Steele]

9. Nothing else you can RUIN tonight? Why so fixated on Joe?

[ruiner4u]

10. cause its been weeks of tin foil crap?

[Marrah_G]

30. You can put him on ignore

Then you never have to see another one of his posts.

[ohio2007]

77. maybe old joe needs his own forum

cult of personality ?

[Party Line]

92. This stuff is too delicious

to put on ignore. It reminds me of my old hippy-wannabe friends who drooled at the prospect of armageddon. This stuff is fun!

ED: sp

[lies and propaganda]

60. his child is there...

have some sympathy

[Horse with no Name]

68. I am going to talk about something else

But I feel the way you do...surprised it has taken this long...but we can hope for something in the near future.:hug:

[Forkboy]

14. So what?

It's not your job to rid DU of things you consider to be non-sensical.Some of us know what he's talking about,and understand why he fears the things he does.

And even if he is wrong,is a little sympathy and understanding of the man's situation so damn difficult to muster up?

[Joe for Clark]

4. You do that.

I saw something that really should scare you white.

Even if it wasn't your kid in an initial fight.

SO you do that - 72 hours - hell that is generous at this point.

You can make it less- 12 hours less or so.

DOn't you EVER pretend to tell me what is the right thing - this is REALLY hard for me to do this.

ANd I know what a coffin looks like with a flag on it - really well.

ANd I don't think you do.

You really think I'd do this but for the kids - do you??
This isn't for me - it is for those stupid kids. I really like them - I always did.

Guess I am stupid too.

Joe

[Bongo Prophet]

22. What did you see, Joe? Or can you not say?

At this point, and after reading more of your posts, I have re-calibrated to only sympathy for your feelings about all this. Even your lashing out is understandable. We can take it, and know it is not us but your frustration with the situation that is building up in you.

Of course you are not "stupid" for caring or "liking the kids" - I just think you need to find people you can talk to in person, and maybe get some support from other family of service members. They would understand you and give you hugs and you could help each other get through this.

Not knowing "what you saw" last week or more recently, I am not quite sure what it is, but -I hope you are wrong about whatever it is exactly that you think is about to happen. For "those stupid kids" AND for all the civilians living in a region we have no business fucking with. Expand your concern out to them as well, for they are every bit as human as our soldiers.

All the best to you and yours, Joe.

[Joe for Clark]

23. I tried to to this before I go home today.

And there could be something else I would never say out loud.

And you know it doesn't even matter?? Cause this is going to happen anyway.

This is all so sick right now.

Joe

[shireen]

20. i respect his rantings, and will keep reading his rantings as long as he rants

anyone with a kid in Iraq deserves to be heard.

he is going thru sheer hell right now, so give the guy a break, ok?

[malaise]

21. I read everything he posts

You can ignore if you like.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. So do I...it's like watching a car wreck

...

[KitchenWitch]

66. How incredibly supportive of you!

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. Is this a support network?

I didn't know. Do you support everyone on this board, no matter what? Is that what we're doing here?

Or is everyone supporting Joe for Clark because his posts here border on the insane, but are at the very least know-nothing, hysterical ranting nonsenses? Is that why we're supposed to be supporting him by encouraging and enabling more ranting nonsense? Is that the strategy? Thanks, then, kitchenwitch, for filling me in on the treatment approach. And this time I thought calling bullshit on bullshit was enough. Apparently not. Apparently, we have to be "supportive" of bullshit, lest we fail to validate the alcohol fueled rantings of crazy people. My bad.

[saltpoint]

2. Joe, I hope your son is ok. I hope the daughters and sons of

all our friends and families are, for that matter, and the daughters and sons of the Iraqis and Kurds and so forth in a land I've never been to.

[cboy4]

5. A very sensitive response from one of the most sensible

people at DU.

I wish the same.

Hello Old Crusoe :hi:

[saltpoint]

8. And a warm hello right back to ya, cboy4. Here, the credit is

entirely yours: I read a previous post of yours to the OP and it both instructed and inspired me to approach this temple differently.

My thanks and good wishes.

[Marrah_G]

33. Thanks Crusoe

:hug:

[dorkulon]

7. The real threat in the North is the 140,000 Turks

amassed on the Kurdish border.

[WCGreen]

11. Yep....

That would be a big worry...

[dorkulon]

12. Hardly seems likely that the Kurds

will be starting shit in Kirkuk with the Turks about to invade.

:freak:

[WCGreen]

13. The kurds are dedicated to a Kurdish State and have been for

hundreds of years...

[dorkulon]

15. Well, they kind of had their own country

pre-WWI. Then the English and French split it up 5 ways -- because they wouldn't give up the oil, of course. I think they deserve to run their own chunk of Iraq after what they've been through.

[Party Line]

93. Make that

millenia. They one of the oldest cultures(8-10,000yrs) that are still in existance.

[Joe for Clark]

16. It is 200,000 now -

But the elections there are over now. And I think what ever the US did a few weeks ago - that must have worked. Cause they just lobbed some shells and made a half assed bombing raid over there and no follow thru. And that is the BEST we could have hoped for.

They still think we can control this I think - dumb Turks. I guess.

Joe

[dorkulon]

17. I think the Turks WILL invade.

They have been oppressing the Kurds within their borders for a long time, and can't tolerate the idea of a Kurdish state on their border.

What remains to be seen is whether the US will do anything to prevent it.

[Joe for Clark]

18. The Turks do NOT trust the Kurds in this.

And the Kurds think the Turks are screwing with them. It is NOT just the PKK - and they believe it.

And I don't have a clue about who may be right.

But we have an immediate problem right now.

When we concentrated in Baghdad - they looked at us and thought -well we need to concentrate where you are not. We'd do the same thing.

Guess where they went??

They understand - cause enough trouble "before September" and it becomes internal politics for us. But they understood something else -that if they did that - they may be able to sway the referendum coming up in a few months too. And that is about money.

They can win two times.

I just want the kids out of the way before the shit hits the fan.

And it is probably too late for that.

Joe

[sanskritwarrior]

65. Yes and the 200,000 Turks are going to meet the 100,000

man Peshmerga that has new tanks, jets, and artillery and the turks are going to get smashed.........I did a year near the Kurdish zone, I convoyed to Suli a lot, people have no idea what kind of Army the Kurds have been building since 2003, it is the best equipped, most trained Army in the Middle East, save Israel. Also the Kurds have operational experience fighting a Combined Arms battle, the Turks do not, the Kurds have an all volunteer force, the Turks use conscripts.........The Turks are all talk and anyone serious KNOWS THAT.........

Finally the standard attack needs a 3:1 ration of attacking troops to defending troops, unless you use American Air/Land Battle Doctrine, then you can attack and succeed with a smaller force........Unfortunately for the Turks they lack the Airlift, Logistics capability, and Attack sortie sustanment to fight a Air/Land campaign........They are gonna get massacred by the Dug in Kurdish Army, they know that's why they will not attack..........

[Party Line]

94. I think you just may be right.

Nobody has ever truly beaten the kurds. Even at 3 to 1 odds or more, I think the kurds will kick Turkey's ass.

ED: sp

[AndyA]

19. I hope you're wrong, Joe.

But in Iraq, who the hell knows what will happen next. The bottom line is, our troops should have never been sent over there in the first place. Iraq never did anything to harm us, and they were hardly in a position to be a threat in the near future.

My only hope is we can get the troops home before too many more of them die or get hurt. And then make those responsible for this travesty pay for their actions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. You keep saying this every few weeks.

I'm sure it's going to happen any few weeks now.

Whatever it is.

[BlooInBloo]

28. Need to coin a JoeForClark unit of time = 3 weeks. So 1 Friedman = 8 JFCs

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. What's a Friedman?

Don't say 8 JFCs, I mean I don't get the reference.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Link....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_(unit)

[BlooInBloo]

42. Fer fuck's sake - damn posting code fucked up the link....

... Sigh. Just google "friedman unit wiki" - it'll be the first hit.

[dorkulon]

32. 6 months.

At any point in time, Tom Friedman will tell you that the next 6 moths in Iraq are the most crucial:

"The next six months in Iraq—which will determine the prospects for democracy-building there—are the most important six months in U.S. foreign policy in a long, long time."
(New York Times, 11/30/03)


"What I absolutely don't understand is just at the moment when we finally have a UN-approved Iraqi-caretaker government made up of—I know a lot of these guys—reasonably decent people and more than reasonably decent people, everyone wants to declare it's over. I don't get it. It might be over in a week, it might be over in a month, it might be over in six months, but what's the rush? Can we let this play out, please?"
(NPR's Fresh Air, 6/3/04)


"What we're gonna find out, Bob, in the next six to nine months is whether we have liberated a country or uncorked a civil war."
(CBS's Face the Nation, 10/3/04)


"Improv time is over. This is crunch time. Iraq will be won or lost in the next few months. But it won't be won with high rhetoric. It will be won on the ground in a war over the last mile."
(New York Times, 11/28/04)


"I think we're in the end game now…. I think we're in a six-month window here where it's going to become very clear and this is all going to pre-empt I think the next congressional election—that's my own feeling— let alone the presidential one."
(NBC's Meet the Press, 9/25/05)


"Maybe the cynical Europeans were right. Maybe this neighborhood is just beyond transformation. That will become clear in the next few months as we see just what kind of minority the Sunnis in Iraq intend to be. If they come around, a decent outcome in Iraq is still possible, and we should stay to help build it. If they won't, then we are wasting our time."
(New York Times, 9/28/05)


"We've teed up this situation for Iraqis, and I think the next six months really are going to determine whether this country is going to collapse into three parts or more or whether it's going to come together."
(CBS's Face the Nation, 12/18/05)


"We're at the beginning of I think the decisive I would say six months in Iraq, OK, because I feel like this election—you know, I felt from the beginning Iraq was going to be ultimately, Charlie, what Iraqis make of it."
(PBS's Charlie Rose Show, 12/20/05)


"The only thing I am certain of is that in the wake of this election, Iraq will be what Iraqis make of it—and the next six months will tell us a lot. I remain guardedly hopeful."
(New York Times, 12/21/05)


"I think that we're going to know after six to nine months whether this project has any chance of succeeding. In which case, I think the American people as a whole will want to play it out or whether it really is a fool's errand."
(Oprah Winfrey Show, 1/23/06)


"I think we're in the end game there, in the next three to six months, Bob. We've got for the first time an Iraqi government elected on the basis of an Iraqi constitution. Either they're going to produce the kind of inclusive consensual government that we aspire to in the near term, in which case America will stick with it, or they're not, in which case I think the bottom's going to fall out."
(CBS, 1/31/06)


"I think we are in the end game. The next six to nine months are going to tell whether we can produce a decent outcome in Iraq."
(NBC's Today, 3/2/06)


"Can Iraqis get this government together? If they do, I think the American public will continue to want to support the effort there to try to produce a decent, stable Iraq. But if they don't, then I think the bottom is going to fall out of public support here for the whole Iraq endeavor. So one way or another, I think we're in the end game in the sense it's going to be decided in the next weeks or months whether there's an Iraq there worth investing in. And that is something only Iraqis can tell us."
(CNN, 4/23/06)


"Well, I think that we're going to find out, Chris, in the next year to six months—probably sooner—whether a decent outcome is possible there, and I think we're going to have to just let this play out."
(MSNBC's Hardball, 5/11/06)


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2884

[Joe for Clark]

59. Oh - I wouldn't dump on him.

This thing went shit south years ago.

How do you fractionate failure exactly??

I look at it as the things that will kill More kids - he looked at it a different way.

But this was decided years ago -

I make projections about how long some "little" part is going to go bad - not the whole.

Joe

[dorkulon]

61. Friedman is a moron at any rate.

The most overrated mind of our times in my opinion.

[fishwax]

49. But is that 8 JFCs or 8 "business" JFCs?

I heard somewhere it makes a difference :rofl:

[NNN0LHI]

25. I wonder if the Turks will have any better luck with IEDs than we have?

My guess would be no.

Don

[dorkulon]

39. The Turks will be attacking Kurds--not the IED makers

The Kurds have been remarkable quiet and well-behaved during all of this mess. They don't deserve to be lumped in with the Arab insurgents.

[NNN0LHI]

44. The Kurds as well as the rest of the world have witnessed the effectiveness of IEDs

To assume that the Kurds are "too well behaved" to use them if push came to shove is naive.

Don

[tnlefty]

26. Hey Joe!

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I do hope that you, your son and your family are okay. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

27. What specifically counts as "the initial blow"?

[slowry]

34. oops, self delete nt

[BlooInBloo]

36. Hm. Did you *really* intend to reply to my post?

[slowry]

37. Wow, take your finger off the refresh key LOL

[BlooInBloo]

38. lol! You beat me to it. Grrr. :)

[slowry]

35. Joe, do you play any instruments?

I'm serious. I bought a decent little tin whistle and it keeps me calm.

[Joe for Clark]

58. I play piano, guitar, bass and cello.

I was published when I was a kid.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swede]

43. Joe has a son over there that he is scared shitless for.

Hit ignore if that bothers you.

[Joe for Clark]

45. What I saw just resulted in a bombing raid and artillery exchange

(although they didn't fire back - I think)

But they have not moved on the border so far - they just keep building up.

Personally I am very glad it went no further than that. Cause it probably should have.

That was the best case for us. But they are still there - watching us - hoping to god we can contain something - and we can't for too long I think.

You understand - you blow up a ballon and the air prssure just comes right back out- unless you tie it off.

Joe

I don't know - how do I put this???

[Catherine Vincent]

41. If something did happen, you all will be asking for Joe. n/t

[Joe for Clark]

46. I read you cat girl -

I am not a good catholic really- but I say the rosary every night now that there is some other fate god has for us. At least for a few more weeks.

My faith says god will stand for us now - and the part of me that is just a rational being speaks otherwise.

I can't put into words how much I want to be wrong now.

You are ok with me anytime cat girl - clearly a decent person.

Joe

[AnExtremist]

47. I think I know what you're refering to...

Are you more worried about them going against our troops though? I haven't really understood all of what's been going on lately there.

[Joe for Clark]

50. I am saying this has become a three dimensional chess match

And it is becoming impossible to distinguish the angles.

They all blur now - cover one angle and you open to the other.

Oh - say we allow Kurds to cover the northern pipelines (we did)- well Turkey will never allow the Kurds that source of funds. Cause they know - those monies will be used against them. Because the Kurds think the northern territories belong to them and those ares belong to Turkey, legally.

We are truly in a no win situation right now.

And THEN - there are element that don't care for regional stability - they just want to stir it up.

And they are all focused at the same point. Right now.

Joe

This is so fucked.

[Ilsa]

48. What Joe For Clark has to say about Iraq is as valid as anything I've

read about or heard recently. The northern area was highlighted on a map of "concerns" the other day. Turkey won't sit by quietly if they think the Kurds are going to encourage the Turkish Kurds to secede. It is certainly an area of intense concern from what I've heard.

Hang in there, Joe. I'll be thinking of your "boy" and sending good thoughts for calm and safety his way.

[Joe for Clark]

51. If Clark was president in 04 - I wouldn't even worry right now.

But he isn't - I know he loves those kids - and I trust his judgement about this.

But we have a presidnet who has literally got it wrong 100% of time sitting there.

Yeah - I am scared - for my kid - for all the kids. And they ARE little kids.

Joe

[Ilsa]

52. ITA. Even if he had the troops there, he'd be working to get them

out and get them relief. I was so disappointed that the 2004 Dem electorate didn't get it.

[Joe for Clark]

56. So was I -

He is a very impressive guy - just listening to him - reading his books. I trust him - totally.

He better be SOD now - our army is breaking - and it better be put back together - right now!!
I think he may be the only person in the country capable of doing that now. This has gone so far.

Gore will do that - I may be Joe for Clark - but I want Gore at the helm now and I want - we need - General Clark as SOD - and we are running out of time.

You know - I couldn't agree with you more.

Joe

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. You've been plowing this field for months, and nothing's growing

When are you gonna kick the...er...habit?

[shadowknows69]

55. Well let's all hope that chaos reigns finally

so you won't be inconvenienced anymore. Give him a break AM. These are extreme times and our brothers and sisters on this board need nothing but support right now. Failing that, silence is nice.
S

[Joe for Clark]

57. No I haven't -

I understood once - Baghdad two was going to happen - I said nothing other then slurs after the fact.

Second time I was sure - no, I didn't post anything - but I sent what I saw to the mods - looking for what to do. The command threaten article 15s - and unless you really think about it - it is scary - and then you realize - they sent this to you - and you are not in the service - but it was cleaver what they did - cause you had to think about it.

Not this time -

Understand me - I think Geraldo Rivera was a traitor and should have been charged as such.

I will NEVER stoop that low - and if I ever did - I should be executed.

But the point can be driven.

Joe

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. The Independent 7/20: Turkish PM threatens to invade northern Iraq

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2788616.ece

[sanskritwarrior]

63. I've been to Kirkuk

did a year there.......So what will blow exactly?


Joe you rant and rant and rant and nothing ever happens.......those of us with an intimate knowledge of Iraq get real tired of you real fast..........

nothing is going to blow, the turks are looking tough for their people, the Turkish Parliament just elected 100 Kurdish MP's they are not going to attack anyone.......Jesus Christ I am so sick of this crap, it's either Turkey or Iran that is going to attack Iraq.........GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELVES AND LEAVE THE ANALYSIS TO US ANALYSTS..............

[sanskritwarrior]

64. P.S.

I am bookmarking this thread and when nothing happens in 3 days, I am coming bakc and demanding an answer from you on why things didn't go down.........

[smalll]

67. 72 hours you say. Would those be "business hours"? /nt

[Cetacea]

70. Joe, there are some real assholes here

but fortunately they make up a small minority on DU.

You and your son are in our prayers. You hang in there, ok?

[Ilsa]

71. Here is a taste of what may come: 4 PKK leaders killed in Iraq blast

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2931854

Source: Reuters

Four PKK leaders killed in Iraq blast - Turkish TV
27 Jul 2007 15:43:26 GMT

ISTANBUL, July 27 (Reuters) - Four leading members of
the Turkish separatist Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) were
killed in an explosion at their camp in northern Iraq,
Turkish private broadcaster CNN Turk reported on Friday.

The broadcaster said the explosion occurred in the Kandil
mountains. No further details were immediately available.

Turkey has threatened to carry out a military incursion
into neighbouring northern Iraq to crush thousands of PKK
rebels they believe use the mountainous region as a base.

[sanskritwarrior]

72. And we know that it was intentional, how exactly??

Last I heard things explode all the time, hell half of downtown Dallas went up the other day..........

[Horse with no Name]

73. Hyperbole much?

Half of downtown Dallas did NOT get blown up the other day.

[sanskritwarrior]

75. No more hyperbole

than what Joe posts.........

[BeHereNow]

74. Peace to your soul Joe.

You are loved.
BHN

[ohio2007]

76. 72 hours - Just south of Kirkuk...is it soup yet ?

How much $$$ did you place on this bet?

[zippy890]

78. give it a rest

I can't imagine the amount of anxiety people with loved ones in iraq right now are experiencing.

Those young people are over there in the middle of a civil, surrounded by various countries/religious factions/powers that are maneuvering to get a piece of whats left of the country when we finally do start bringing the military back-- meanwhile american armed forces and others there could end up the ultimate casualties in a horrible hostage situation~ I just hope the military commanders are preparing a real exit plan for those kids.

Peace to Joe and others in his situation, if thats possible

[ohio2007]

79. It only took months to plan the invasion, it will take years to exit

There all all types of people who have loved ones over there.
my 2 cents;
"Settle down Joe, get a grip on yourself before you hurt somebody"

[EFerrari]

90. Who compelled you to read this thread? And, did you read Novak

today?

[sanskritwarrior]

82. Why?

Joe spews this garbage every few weeks and gets away with it everytime.........

If he needs help this much, a forum is not the answer..........

[rucky]

80. Kurds? n/t

[seriousstan]

81. Is that 72 business hours?

[Lex]

89. LOL!

:rofl:

[Nutmegger]

83. I can't recommend,

but I can :kick:.

Thank you.

[Horse with no Name]

84. I'll kick it too

:kick:

[PaganPreacher]

85. Still waiting.

Maybe you need to trade in your Magic Eight Ball for model 2.0.

<>

[Zywiec]

86. Any update? n/t

[seemslikeadream]

87. kick

[Lex]

88. This OP was started last WEDNESDAY?

nt

[seemslikeadream]

91. read what is happening in Turkey

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1474571&mesg_id=1474571

[amandabeech]

95. Stratfor has an interesting analysis.

I know they're somewhat neocon, but take them for what they are worth.

I can't get the link to work, but if you google "stratfor" and "turkey", the article will pop up.

The bottom line is that this is an incredibly complicated situation, and no one may make any move until spring, the traditional attack season. If they are right, a lot can happen between then and now, and recent moves may amount more to posturing and positioning among the U.S., Turkey, Iraq, Iran, the Kurdish regional government, the PUK, the KDP and the PKK.

It may be that the only party who really wants trouble is Iran, which may be the only entity that really wins if trouble starts, if Stratfor is right. If that's the case, then the others just have to avoid a WWI-type dominoe fall, like the one Turkey got into back then. Maybe they'll be able to avoid that mistake again.

[Zywiec]

96. Did you have any money on this prediction?

"If I was a betting man - I'd bet the initial blow was coming within 72 hours - Just south of Kirkuk."