Wow Obama takes a bigger swipe at Hillary

[Perky]

Obama Tries to Turn Clinton Words on Her

By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer


COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama tried to turn rival Hillary Rodham Clinton's words back on her Wednesday, saying her vote to authorize the Iraq war was "irresponsible and naive."

Clinton had used the same language a day earlier to criticize Obama for saying he would be willing to meet with leaders of nations such as Cuba, North Korea and Iran without conditions within the first year of his presidency. Clinton said renegade leaders could use such a meeting for propaganda and that envoys below the presidential level should begin diplomatic work.

[wellst0nev0ter]

1. And No Nit-Picklering Either

The idea that Clinton is free to attack foreign policy decisions of other candidates without being fully contrite of her own blunders is the one that can only be supported by the DC cocktail circuit culture.

[Perky]

4. yep and it is very telling as well

Hillary Jabs.. and not only did Obama not duck the punch by counterspinning his meaning. He threw a solid left cross on tuesday pointing out that Hillary has sais essentially the same thing a few week afo when she criticized Bush for not talking to thjoe we do not like
It was a marginal.because it is a new cycle of the Day type story.. but the counter punch today pushed it to a second news cycle and puts HrC on the defensive for the moment. because she continues to defend her naivete. It is an issue of concern to millions of Democreate.

This is actually healthy invigoraing stff. and I am pleasantly surpisred their is substance behind the argument. Good For Obama for not ducking and weaving Hilaruy's criticism which while valid on its face was not a particualty deep issue.


The more important point is that she tried to bedismissive of him as a lighteight whe she went after his qualifications and he countered with a solid left right combo.on a very important point.

Jolly good show. Clearly a warning shot by Obama...."You do not want to make this about gravitas"

[beam me up scottie]

6. Do you always copy and paste all of your posts in duplicate threads?

Again, not impressed. He should have come up with something better than "I know you are but what am I?".

And he should have come out with it sooner or not at all.

[Perky]

7. Oh it was hardly that it was a far stroinger counterpunch

Bout Naivete and Gravitas. He called Hillary out for backing the staus quao by saying we need to change the way diplomacy works

[MatrixEscape]

2. And so, a war of words and ideas

comes in defense and retaliation of a war of words and ideas made real.

What is the difference? What if peace-loving candidates could campaign in a respectful and inclusive way?

Maybe that kind of battle for office would not only endorse peace, it could then create a real sense of it that could become reality for millions.

Right now, we are just seeing a form of mimicry that tends to support the underlying subset of battle. The battle is the issue, be it by mind, word, deed, or gun. Fighting is fighting, no matter how you frame it. Peace is peace, no matter how you pretend to love or want it.

[LittleClarkie]

3. At this rate, they're going to nullify each other

maybe Edwards and Richardson can break through then.

[polichick]

5. I'm waiting for Richardson to take advantage of this one...

He's got more foreign policy experience than the other three put together.

[sandnsea]

8. argh, the dreaded "Bush light"

As much as I hate that slogan, his using it may well signal that he's turning up the heat. I think that's a bigger punch than using irresponsile and naive. "Bush light" hits right at the blogosphere, right when HRC is trying to find a way in.

“It goes to the heart of whether or not we’re going to have a fundamental
change in how the Bush administration has conducted foreign policy,” Mr.
Obama said, “or we’re going to have a version of Bush light.”

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/obama-stirs-up-the-duel-with-clinton/

[durrrty libby]

9. He knows the polls are not in his favor. Panic and desperation

have set in early

[Perky]

11. Wow six months before Iowa

$50 Million in the bank

Drawing larger Crords the Hillary at every single tuunt
Ahead of Hillary in IA, and SOuth Carolian abd vityally tied with Hillary in NH.

He responds to a light jab by Mrs. Bill Clinton blown out to the MSM the nextday by her Spin Doctors as Naivete with a statement full of thoughtfulness and Gravitas and pointing out again that Mrs. Bill Clinton voted for this mess we are now in and he is the one that is depsrate.

[Perky]

12. Dupe

[Perky]

13. Dupe

[Dawgs]

17. Hey, I thought you didn't respond in these kind of polls.

:shrug:

[Solo_in_MD]

10. Soon the food fight will be in full swing

It was only a question of when

[Firespirit]

14. I *do not* like Hillary... but....

I'm tired of the IWR vote being used to bludgeon people over the head.

It doesn't matter anymore. 2002 isn't the same as 2005, 06, or 07.

It wasn't even a bad law -- what it actually did was to require that the president give the inspectors a chance before committing troops. Bush broke the law. I hate that there hasn't been a declared war in this country since WWII, and I seriously doubt that the Framers intended for the president to be able to use the CiC designation to sidestep a formal Declaration of War, but there is an almost 60-year precedent for it now, sadly. And Bush went to war in violation of the law, the Iraq resolution.

There are plenty of things to attack Hillary over. This isn't one of them.

[jackstraw45]

15. Let's not play games...*I* remember that period and we ALL knew..

...Bush was taking us to WAR with this legislation. We, at DU, ALL KNEW that it was a push to war and not to allow inspectors anything but the brief window to run for their lives.


The IWR vote was and STILL is indefensible given the climate at the time and the FACTS - certainly available to us and shamefully ignored by those voting aye.

[Firespirit]

16. That is not true.

Bush would've gone to war anyway. The vote was meaningless. The invasion had been planned since before he even took office.

WE at DU knew that the "mushroom cloud" was a bullshit premise, either because we didn't think there were WMD, or because we didn't think Saddam would use them against U.S. interests. But 67% of the American public fell for it.

Democrats were sinking in the polls and I don't even need to remind anyone of the disaster that was 2002. The disaster was emphatically NOT because they were too far to the Right, but because of the Rove propaganda machine and that deceived 67% of the public.

Say you're a Democratic Senator in an unsafe seat, in a climate like that. Or say that you were in a safe seat but intended to run for President, in a climate like that. (I do suspect Hillary originally planned to run in 2004 and chickened out because of the Democratic-hostile political climate.) You KNOW that Bush will go to war anyway, that he was moving troops in even as you were voting. You know that this vote won't make a bit of difference in whether he goes to war, but that it might cost YOU. What do you do? Risk martyring yourself, and if you're in an unsafe seat, risk putting the Democratic Party even further back in future attempts to regain seats?

I for one have never understood the point of useless gestures of martyrdom. If you're going to sacrifice yourself, at least do it in a way that accomplishes something.

[TahitiNut]

28. You're absollutely correct. 90% of DU was appalled. Many of us were in the streets.

The IWR was a total abomination and all the agonized parsing in the world doesn't overcome the FACT that it KNOWINGLY gave political cover and concealment to Cheney/Bush and their war crimes.

[Dawgs]

19. "It doesn't matter anymore"

Tell that to the families of the dead American soldiers, and those that are worried about their sons and daughters coming home alive.

If Hillary trusted Bush then she really is naive.

[Firespirit]

21. Did the Congress cause that?

Bush would have gone to war anyway. He considers himself to BE the law, as he demonstrates every single day. This vote was no exception. He violated THAT law and he would've gone to war even in the absence of it.

It astounds me that some insist on blaming Congress for what that piece of crap did.

[Dawgs]

22. So why vote for it?

If he was going to do it anyways, then why vote for it if you don't support it?

Your logic makes no sense at all.

[Firespirit]

25. Since you seem not to have read upthread, I'll repost.

We at DU knew that the "mushroom cloud" was a bullshit premise, either because we didn't think there were WMD, or because we didn't think Saddam would use them against U.S. interests. But 67% of the American public fell for it.

Democrats were sinking in the polls and I don't even need to remind anyone of the disaster that was 2002. The disaster was emphatically NOT because they were too far to the Right, but because of the Rove propaganda machine and that deceived 67% of the public.

Say you're a Democratic Senator in an unsafe seat, in a climate like that. Or say that you were in a safe seat but intended to run for President, in a climate like that. (I do suspect Hillary originally planned to run in 2004 and chickened out because of the Democratic-hostile political climate.) You KNOW that Bush will go to war anyway, that he was moving troops in even as you were voting. You know that this vote won't make a bit of difference in whether he goes to war, but that it might cost YOU. What do you do? Risk martyring yourself, and if you're in an unsafe seat, risk putting the Democratic Party even further back in future attempts to regain seats?

I for one have never understood the point of useless gestures of martyrdom. If you're going to sacrifice yourself, at least do it in a way that accomplishes something.

[Dawgs]

27. So then why not apologize for it now?

If she was wrong, as you admit for her, then why not apologize.

BTW, any Democrat that voted for the war to get re-elected needs to be thrown out of office. I'm shocked that anyone would defend this line of thinking.

[Firespirit]

30. I agree that she should apologize

At this point, all it amounts to is arrogance on her part and an unwillingness to show what she perceives to be "weakness" in admitting she was deceived.

I don't agree that they should be thrown out of office.

I guess this is a fundamental difference in worldview that we have, the concept of strategic voting, and it doesn't seem fruitful to argue over it further.

[Dawgs]

24. I hope that's not Kerry's answer.

I really like the guy.

[Firespirit]

26. What does he have to do with anything?

That's my answer. How did you get the idea that I speak for him?

[Dawgs]

29. Because he voted for the war, and I assume your lame ass argument came from someone else.

My apologies to Senator Kerry.

[Firespirit]

31. No, I don't parrot people's opinions

I happen to live in Boston and "like the guy" myself, so it seems reasonable to have him as my icon.

I really don't have a problem with casting votes for political reasons, in situations where it won't make a difference in the outcome. If it would make a difference, then sure, they should take the risk -- but I cannot wrap my head around the idea of martyrdom for its own sake. With that being the case, it seems pointless to fight over this.

[originalpckelly]

36. "It doesn't matter anymore." Only to those people who think Iraq is about politics...

and not the lives of other humans beings.

[sandnsea]

37. He said more than this

He went directly after her comments about setting out a long series of conditions before the US will talk to anyone, just like Bush has done, challenged her to explain how what she said is different than Bush, etc. I also think he is referring to more than the vote, and to the war in general. I think he needs to expand on that as well, she was justified the war long after most Democrats had recognized the mistake, and also makes it impossible to go after the war lies because she repeatedly said the Clinton people came to the same conclusion as Bush on intelligence. I also agree that somebody needs to go after her on all of it, and Obama is really the only one who can.

[illinoisprogressive]

18. he did not try. he succeeded

[helderheid]

20. GOOD ON HIM!

[Crankie Avalon]

23. WOOHOO!!! Perfect response.

So glad he finally said it.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

32. I'm hoping he makes NAFTA a campaign issue, when the Clinton's threw the working class under the bus...

to appease their corporate masters. No Clinton should ever be the Democratic nominee after being responsible for destroying the the future of the working class in America.

[Imagevision]

33. If you're going to critique or quote Obama

you shouldn't edit his statements, repeat what he said word for word it does make a difference when forming an opinion.

[Perky]

34. It was the first two graphs from an AP artilce

What inaccuracy?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Bigger?

Tries?