Defense bigs ask '24' to cool it on torture

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/496341p-418187c.html

The grossly graphic torture scenes in Fox's highly rated series "24" are encouraging abuses in Iraq, a brigadier general and three top military and FBI interrogators claim.

The four flew to Los Angeles in November to meet with the staff of the show. They said it is hurting efforts to train recruits in effective interrogation techniques and is damaging the image of the U.S. around the world, according The New Yorker.

"I'd like them to stop," Army Brig. Gen. Patrick Finnegan, dean of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, told the magazine.

Finnegan and others told the show's creative team that the torture depicted in "24" never works in real life, and by airing such scenes, they're encouraging military personnel to act illegally.

"People watch the shows, and then walk into the interrogation booths and do the same things they've just seen," said Tony Lagouranis, who was a U.S. Army interrogator in Iraq and attended the meeting.

New Yorker article from which NY Daily News took this story. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070219fa_fact_mayer

[merwin]

1. I'd be scared if military personnel throw out their military training for that of 24.

Very scared.

It's likely that the military training includes much of the torture depicted in "24", however

[Laha]

2. See this buck?

Here, you can have it.

Makes perfect sense that trained military personel would forget everything the moment they watch television. I'm sure that's the problem right there. :eyes:

:sarcasm:

That's so incredibly lame.

[Merrill]

3. image

It's all about image....

[w4rma]

4. Very good for them! (nt)

[eShirl]

5. stop depicting what we're actually doing

[aquart]

16. Now you've got it.

I'm stunned that they're suddenly so sensitive.

I would not watch that show if you paid me.

[crikkett]

19. Same here - I don't want the bad vibes in my house.

[rpannier]

6. I'm behind them

that show is 100% pure crap and anyone who finds it entertaining has a screw loose.
That includes barbara streisand who apparantly watches it and keifer sucks-erland who stars in it.

[Posteritatis]

22. A lot of the civilian defenses of torture I've come across

..are pretty much cookie-cuttered straight out of 24, from what I've seen. "If (situation cribbed from the show) happened, you wouldn't be so anti-torture then, would you?"

Logical arguments about that aside (if a nuke was going off in ten minutes or something, the government's already failed, and oh, by the way, fiction)... yes, a lot of folks in the military and the civilians working alongside it in Iraq are involved in prisoner abuse or worse. That's pretty much an indisputible fact at this point. The guys complaining might have a point that the show, which is annoyingly popular, is encouraging them, but I'm not sure.

It is, however, most definitely encouraging the "torture's acceptable and sometimes patriotic!" mindset among most civilians I've seen who are into both the show and hooking car batteries up to someone's important bits. The First Amendment leaves producers open to air controversial and even harmful opinions; I wouldn't have it any other way, bearing several opinions of either type myself. However, it also leaves us free to call foul when we see something having those kinds of effects.

[bananas]

7. "damaging the image of the U.S. around the world"

They blamed losing Vietnam on TV news,
now they're blaming losing Iraq on 24.
Years from now, conservatives will be saying,
"We could have won Iraq if it wasn't for 24".

[babylonsister]

8. You go first, defense. Not much can top the Abu Ghraib pics we saw.

Imagine the pics that weren't allowed to be released!

[sugapablo]

9. Nothing new...

The Man has never liked things he wanted to keep under wraps to be shown on TV





Earth to the Man: IT'S A FREAKIN' TV SHOW!

[habitual]

10. blaming the show for interrogator's abuses is weak!

anyone who is actually trained in a skill (which i am) knows that when you see that skill being depicted on TV, one usually becomes highly criticaly of the silly non-reality way that they depict it. That is the normal response (for me and most i know.) No one that i know has become less skilled or less trained or wanted to copy the techniques on TV. It stands to reason that if you are properly trained, you identify a flawed approach/technique easily.

[MGKrebs]

12. Agreed. And if it's true, sure doesn't say much for their training.

Which would be yet another sign of how profoundly flawed this adventure is.

[Richard Steele]

32. Indeed. They are saying an hour-a-week TV show has more influence over their troops than they do.

Sounds like a clear admission of INCOMPETENCE to me. -If- I
believed a goddamn word of it.

[Kagemusha]

15. I assume interrogation is the intended skill, not torture.

I also assume that the real issue is a matter of oversight. And not surprisingly, a lot of oversight in war zones is pretty weak. Because that's the tone set by the civilian leadership on down.

But hey, if they wanna go complain to the '24' people for other reasons - like human decency issues - fine with me. It's just that, with low oversight conditions, I have little doubt '24' does provide inspiration of sorts.

[MetaTrope]

11. So has 24 shown little boys being raped in front of their mothers?

I haven't watched TV in about 15 years, so I've just not kept up with popular culture...

[Jonathan50]

13. From the New Yorker link you posted above

Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors—cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by “24,” which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, “The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about “24”?’ ” He continued, “The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.”

As you can see from the quote above, it is not just any old trigger puller in country that is using '24' as their justification for abusing Iraqis. Rather it is West Point cadet seniors that are having trouble separating fantasy from reality. If these cadets, arguably our best and brightest in the military, are having trouble ignoring the TV propaganda of '24' then it should be clear that the average trigger puller in Iraq will have even a great deal more difficulty ignoring the TV fantasy.

[DeepModem Mom]

14. K&R

[LiberalFighter]

17. Are they that stupid that they don't instruct the recruits that 24 is not legal?

I forgot they had to lower the standards in order to meet their recruitment quota. Even accepting felons.

[teryang]

18. So it's not John Yoo, AG Gonzales, Dick Cheney...

...or General Miller who are responsible it's a fictional TV program.

[PerceptionManagement]

20. I don't think the guys in Iraq get much prime time TV.

[RamboLiberal]

43. They've gotten whole seasons on DVD

and since the producer is so RW and it's on Fox I wouldn't be surprised they send DVD sets over gratis.

[Orsino]

21. Wouldn't that just embolden the other networks? n/t

[Beelzebud]

23. 24 is here to desensitize the public to torture and extreme force.

[ShortnFiery]

26. It's a disgusting show - Interrogation is the "art" of gleaning intelligence

from a source. Career CIA officers will tell you that NOT ONCE has this BS "ticking time bomb" scenario made them breech procedure and convert to either coercive or torture techniques.

It's machismo at its most hideous and vile ... adored by mentally ill homophobic men ... as is indicated by the recurrent violent homo-erotic themes. :thumbsdown:

[Seen the light]

36. I think it's being used as an arm of DU

It obviously must be because nearly every Republican on the show is shown as corrupt, while every Democrat is smart and knows how to actually do things correctly.

See? I can make gross mischaracterizations as well! :P

[Judi Lynn]

39. You're so right. It's ugly, and dirty. That hit me hard, too, the first time I saw it.

It's clearly meant to impose someone else's intention that torture is GOING to be acceptable, no matter WHAT the law, or what anyone's sense of right and wrong tells him/her.

They're trying to break down people's natural repulsion, horror by presenting it as practical, and necessary.

I hope they are all brought to a new level of perspective they never anticipated in their own lifetimes.

This actual attempt to bypass peoples' moral beliefs is filthy.

[flashlighter]

24. On 24, republicans are evil, while Dems are considered

honest, thoughtful people with conviction and national interests at heart.


I always get so amused when people get mad at 24. They're like the people who think Harry Potter makes kids take up satanism. <giggle>

[Beelzebud]

25. The problem with 24 is that it makes torture seem acceptable.

[flashlighter]

27. I disagree. It almost NEVER works on the show

and when it does, it's imcomplete information or disinformation. It seems to me that Jack Bauer is more often steered in the wrong direction b/c he tortured someone. Also, he was tortured for two years by the Chinese, and now he can't seem to do it anymore....I think the character is going somewhere very interesting.

Also, on the newest season, the man who most resembles out current admin is portrayed as evil, slimey and wrong. Much like last year!

[RamboLiberal]

42. Wrong on Jack not doing torture because of what Chinese

did to him. He sure did a number on his evil brother for 2 episodes.

[Ilsa]

31. On the show, they present how the tortured get around

the objective. The characters give misinformation, etc. And the hero, Jack, never breaks, obviously ridiculous.

Sorry, but this is more about "monkey see, monkey do" kind of behavior among the recruits. If they really watched the show, they'd see it doesn't work.

And the show has really come down hard on US leaders who try to manipulate information and intel to fit their agenda and policy, not the other way around. Yeah, there are foreign bad guys, but the leadership is just as dispicable, as they enable the terrorism to suit their agenda.

[ShortnFiery]

28. IMO, you are sadly mistaken. "24" is fantasy that lauds insane behaviors. n/t

[flashlighter]

29. Have you watched the show?

The torturing NEVER WORKS..


I can't believe I'm defending TV on Sat night...am I that drunk?

[ShortnFiery]

30. It would not be USED. That's the point. I don't know, how much have you consumed? n/t

[flashlighter]

33. Clearly, torture is bad. And I'm going back to the longe with my

drunk self. :) :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

34. Have a good evening.

Yes, we concur on that fact. :hi: ;)

[Seen the light]

35. You nailed it

I always laugh when 24 hysteria comes up on DU. As a fan of the show that actually watches it, it's amusing to see people try to argue against something they really know absolutely nothing about.

[ShortnFiery]

37. "As a fan of the show"

I guess that trumps my four years experience serving within Army Military Intelligence Units. ;)

FYI Here's an unclassified Army Field Manual 34-52. Subject: INTERROGATION
(It's boring in it's detail and the techniques are not included on "24" ... BUT it's REAL.)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/

[Seen the light]

38. To clarify: I'm not talking about that

I know nothing about actual interrogation methods and procedures other than what I read online. I definitely wouldn't get into a discussion over that. I'm talking about the people that complain often that it's somehow 24's fault that torture is becoming legitimized. If real-life interrogators can't tell the difference between fact and fiction, then that is their own damn fault, not the show's.

[ShortnFiery]

40. The Leaders have a point ...

When I was an impressionable 18 y.o. first enrolled in R.O.T.C. I loved everything about patrolling and small unit tactics. I joined a group that trained cadets to attend that kick-ass Ranger School and *really*, I mean *really* got into the thought of covert ops. I have trained with numerous SF and Ranger types, to include attending parties that honored Bo Gritz. However by the time of my Regular Army Commissioning (upper 5% of R.O.T.C. graduates) I was beginning to mature and form more of a "real effect" image of combat and it's aftermath. When a (metally healthy & somewhat compassionate) person matures emotionally, all that *take no prisoners* rhetoric is put into perspective as PURE fantasy.

My Point: The reason that I provide my history above is to emphasize: at the age of 17 and 18 years old, the vast majority of our intelligence slotted enlisted soldiers do NOT have the emotional maturity to FULLY understand the repercussions of "violent behavior." The foregoing is NOT a dismissal of their overall intelligence but, I believe, a statement of fact that those under the age of 21 (many under the age of 25) do not have the capacity to "think things through" but instead, live for the moment.

I have changed my philosophy 180 degrees over my lifetime. But I still remember "the rush" of charging through an objective; setting off grenade simulators; firing a LAW; jumping out of perfectly good airplanes; firing a cal 50 and rappelling Australian (face first) off of the local fire tower, etc. etc. Now that I'm an old broad, I feel a little guilty because of the "gung ho" feelings I felt back THEN. :blush: However, I understand the INTENSE allure, especially for very young and impressionable adults. We should, as a people, be careful to not encourage barbarism at this point in our nation's history ... even if it is dubbed as *fiction.*

That's why the portrayals of horrific methods of coercion are NOT good for young adults who sign onto the Military Intelligence MOSes. The instructors have to "train out" the delusions of grandeur that such fantasy programs portray.

Any series and/or movie that GLORIFIES any aspect about WAR or TORTURE does a disservice to our youth. It's always the old powerful men (and some women) who send our treasure (young people) off to kill and die. To glorify MAIMING and KILLING, IMO, is just plain EVIL. :shrug:

[mikelewis]

45. Excellent reply...

[Jonathan50]

41. Repost since I got no replies ----- From the New Yorker link in the OP

Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors—cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by “24,” which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, “The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about “24”?’ ” He continued, “The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do.”

As you can see from the quote above, it is not just any old trigger puller in country that is using '24' as their justification for abusing Iraqis. Rather it is West Point cadet seniors that are having trouble separating fantasy from reality. If these cadets, arguably our best and brightest in the military, are having trouble ignoring the TV propaganda of '24' then it should be clear that the average trigger puller in Iraq will have even a great deal more difficulty ignoring the TV fantasy.

[Leopolds Ghost]

44. kick