So Canadians are allowed to drive their trucks anywhere in America but not Mexicans

[Toots]

What is the rationale for this?

[TwilightGardener]

1. Because Mexicans have less stringent safety standards? Because

we usually don't have truckloads of illegal Canadians smuggled in the backs of trailers, suffocating? Because the drugs that come from Canada are the prescription kind? I don't know.

[NYVet]

2. Because we usually don't have to worry about Canadians...

not having vehicles that will fall apart and kill us when driving down the road?

[endarkenment]

3. Beans.

Rice and beans.

[EFerrari]

8. And corn. Don't forget corn.

lol

[CreekDog]

71. Is that called Maize?

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Aside from the safety issues...

which are real, the real fear is that the Mexicans will drive down the cost of trucking stuff , and the Canadians won't.

Lower freight rates are bad?

Well, yeah, when you're in the trucking business and losing money. Or a truck driver who saw your good driving job disappear and you now net almost nothing after expenses.

[txaslftist]

5. Canadian wages are similar to ours?

Wages for truck drivers from Mexico are much lower than here. This means that we are "outsourcing" American trucking, one of the very few industries that is still domestic. Allowing cheap Mexican labor to drive trucks on American roads is a great idea if you want to bust the teamster's union and save corporations lots of money in shipping costs.

If you are an American trucker, not so much. But really, should we have ANY American industries that are protected from free market wages? After all, the iron law of wages dictates that everyone who labors for a living will eventually work for what the poorest and most desperate will accept to put a bowl of rice on his table in Bangladesh.

And isn't that what we all want? A permanent underclass paid in pesos? Think of the profits to be had.

[lonestarnot]

6. Canadians have better trucks. LOL

[devilgrrl]

7. Canadians tend to be WHITER than Mexicans

:sarcasm:

[pampango]

10. Now, now. I am sure that, if there were provisions requiring inspections of Mexican trucks

before they were allowed into the country, so that they met the same safety, environmental and insurance standards as Canadian trucks, we would be happy to allow them in. Who would want to treat Mexicans any differently than Canadians?

[AnneD]

47. Canada does not have a culture ripe with bribery...

8nlike Mexico-where returning legal Americans of Mexican descent are routinely shaken down for money.

If you have to give a bribe going in, what makes you think you can't bribe an inspector going out.

[pampango]

113. The inspections of trucks coming into the US should be done by Americans, not by Mexicans.

Mexican inspectors can inspect trucks coming into their country if they want to.

Does the use of American inspectors convince you that Mexican truck drivers should be allowed into the country?

[AnneD]

119. No....

because of all the other reasons I mentioned in a previous post. Trucks may or may not get pulled for inspection due to staffing on this side of the border. The Border Patrol has been understaffed for years and is just now being taken more seriously. I have lived in border states (Tx,NM) all of my life and that gives me a familiarity with this-having gone through many screening from the BP (by the way most are good guys-just overworked) . On top of that my step dad was a trucker (long distance hauler) so I have an intimate understanding of some of the finer points of this argument.

I am for fair trade not free trade. This trucking issue is not fair to either side and is just one more way to outsource good jobs-but on our own soil this time and with the potential of endangering the motoring public in the process.

[pampango]

120. I am for fair trade not free trade, as well. Where we differ is that

I believe that requiring Mexican trucks to meet the same standards as are required of Canadian and American trucks, and then allowing them to compete is fair trade.

Some feel that it would still not be fair trade, even if the trucks had to meet identical standards, because the drivers would be paid less. If that is true, then the concept of fair trade becomes somewhat irrelevant with respect to the Third World. Regardless of the labor, environmental and human rights provisions that we might require our Third World trading partners to comply with, the workers (drivers in this case) in those countries will make less than similar American workers. If that did not qualify as fair trade, then us "fair traders" would be expected to oppose the trade in the products that these workers made.

I would not agree with that position. I would then not look at fair trade as a way to promote equitable development in Third World countries (which is how I view it), but as a strategy for those who oppose any trade with the Third World to pretend to support "fair" trade, but then be quite happy that no country actually meets the definition.

[AnneD]

127. In this instance, and using your arguments.....

It is very unfair to the American Truckers.

Would they be subject to Mexican Law and penal system or the American justice system should accidents. Would the Mexican government provide them with a translators in a court of law and how would we deal with them falling under Mexican law and prisons or jails. If a Mexican trucker is arrested here he is provided with an attorney and translators. He has a clean cell decent food and water, tv and physical exercise. He can take classes and read while waiting trial. The only thing the Mexican cannot have in the US jail or prison is conjugal visits.

And when these American drivers are delivering goods deep into Mexico and they are held up at gun point by a drug and weapons gang-would the Mexican government insure their safety. You are absolutely forbidden to bring guns or even bullets into the country. So where is your safety? I know the odds of a Mexican trucker having to face a gang jacking his truck is pretty slim here, but it can be an unpleasant reality in Mexico.

Road quality can sometimes be dicey in Mexico. Will the Mexican Government cough up the money like we do to improve and repair roads. Our truckers pay through the nose in road taxes to transport through many states and the money is earmarked for the roads. Will they have to pay road taxes in Mexico too. Will the Mexican truckers have the same taxes levied on them. And will the money go for the roads or in someone's pocket.

And I haven't even talked about the disparity in wages. A trucker in the US has a higher overhead, the Mexican a lower. Will a Mexican Company pay the American a fair wage (like the have to now)or will they go for the lower Mexican trucker. Will the American higher the American trucker to deliver to Mexico.....

The answer is a resounding NO

So using you own arguments of fairness for the Mexican trucker vs fairness for the American trucker in Mexico (as opposed to the US)-it is not fair either.

So let's call this for what it really is-gutting another local industry and outsourcing jobs on our own soil.

[pampango]

128. I understand your reservations about the difficulties that American

truckers would have doing business in Mexico. If I were a truck driver I wouldn't do it, but there is no government authority stopping me.

The fact remains that in negotiating NAFTA all three countries made concessions that they would have preferred not to make, but did so in order to benefit from the concessions that the other countries were making. Given the way treaty negotiations work, in exchange for the US' concession allowing Mexican truck drivers access to our highways, Mexico would have had to make a concession or concessions of its own. Just because their concessions didn't address the very valid concerns you presented, doesn't mean that they did not make significant concessions.

What the Senate is doing to Mexico now is saying, "Thanks for your concessions, but we have reconsidered and now don't intend to do what we said we would do." Now if the Senate would vote to withdraw from NAFTA or, at least, to renegotiate the treaty, I would back them 100%. It is not doing the workers in any of the countries any good.

The next Democratic president will be negotiating with many countries in the future, e.g. North Korea, China, Iran, and many others. I would not want that president burdened with a deserved reputation that our country cannot be trusted to implement the provisions of a treaty that might have many provisions, some of which we don't like and some that the other party may not like, but which we all agree to in order to achieve some greater goal.

[AnneD]

130. Many folks were against NAFTA from the

beginning because of this (It had a lot of trouble passing) and it was a knife in the heart of the Dem's biggest base-labour. I view this as one of the worst things the Dem Congress and Clinton did. It just accelerated the race to the bottom of the wage barrel and should be revisited, reviewed and revised. The few benefits have not been worth the cost. Clinton is usually smart-but he got hoodwinked on that deal. I happened to be staying at a Hotel in DC when the Congress was doing a free trade agreement with Korea. The Korean delegation was staying in out Hotel and you could just smell the money in the air it was so thick. The greed was palpable. They had several functions there and I got to do some people watching. I also talked to they protesters that were ensconced out side. They kept trying to say what a good deal it would be for Korea, but it would eventually gut their culture. Just like what Wal mart has done to downtown in small towns all across America. It is another way for multinational to screw the workers.

It is no deal for the American trucker. I can make a deal at lunch-your bag for my bag. Now I have your tuna sandwich and you have my shit sandwich. They are both sandwiches but you wouldn't eat mine. Whoever negotiates these deals sucks. Like mangos for nuclear arms.

[pampango]

131. I agree with everything you said. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. yes.

[tsuki]

9. Uh, Canadian trucks don't blow up killing 34 people?

I have been down this "racist" road with the right wingers here who accuse me of racism while vision of price cuts at the expense of the American Worker dance in their head. Ain't gonna be no stinkin' price cuts, just more dollars to the corporate mastas.

As the niece of a Teamster who stood with Hoffa and got his head bashed in, and a supporter of Overtime workers and the UPS when the corporate media was slander and libeling them, I stand with them on this issue.

And if you think that Mexican trucks will be inspected during a time of tax cuts and down-sizing of services, good on you. Our roads just became more dangerous.

[Double T]

11. Transport of Mexican Illegal Aliens, defective and/or poorly maintained truck equipment,........

Mexican slave wage truck drivers, MORE American jobs lost and work AMERICANS WANT TO DO outsourced to in-sourced foreign workers. The IRRATIONAL outsourcing of American jobs must STOP. I don't believe Canadians are clamoring to get across our northern border to become American citizens.

[pampango]

14. So you oppose illegal Mexican aliens, as well as legal Mexican truck drivers.

Is the legal vs. illegal, "rule of law", argument that was presented here so often opposing illegal Mexican immigrants just a straw man? The real issue seems to be that Mexicans are poor and poor people tend not to have very high wages.

The trucks can be inspected to maintain standards consistent with those required of American and Canadian trucks. You are right, though, that the drivers will still be Mexicans with their "slave wages" (one of my favorite misnomers since it is an irrational compliment to the institution of slavery to imply that slaves received wages). Others have pointed out that Mexican drivers are illiterate (in English, Spanish or both), don't speak good English (my apologies to those Canadian truck drivers from Quebec who could be accused of the same thing) and eat way too much rice and beans to be allowed into the country.

The real problem is that our society and economy are so skewed in favor of the rich and powerful that we end up fighting with Mexican truck drivers, Indian call center employees and Chinese factory workers for the crumbs from the tables of those with the wealth in our country.

By the way, there are plenty of illegal aliens from Canada in the US. I have even seen their posts on DU. But I guess they are "good illegals" since they don't threaten us with their "slave wages."

[Double T]

31. Will "slave compensation" work better than "slave wage"?

Slaves are always provided with the least possible food and 'roof over their head'; their master is either providing food, 'roof' and clothing OR the master provides a paltry 'slave wage' so the slave can purchase his own minimal food, 'roof' and clothing. When there are THOSE that attempt to integrate a corrupt third world economy with a corrupt former industrialized turned technology turned corrupt corporate debtor nation economy, the outcome will be a VERY SMALL group of ruling wealthy elite and a VERY LARGE AND GROWING group of 'slave wage workers' receiving 'slave compensation' for their work. I guess anything and everything that can be done to accelerate the growth of the 'slave' population must be a good thing for the wealthy elite; after ALL, weren't most of 'US' put here to serve our masters? It has nothing to do with nationality, skin color, language or 'rice and beans'; it has everything to do with ENABLING our masters to SCREW the hell out of 'US'.

[pampango]

41. Thanks for the linguistic concession (or explanation).

"It has nothing to do with nationality, skin color, language or 'rice and beans'; it has everything to do with ENABLING our masters to SCREW the hell out of 'US'."

You and I can agree on the need to prevent "our masters" from "SCREW(ing) the hell out of 'US'". Where we disagree is on the need to go after Mexican truck drivers and not our "masters". Is it because the former are weaker and, therefore, easier targets or because they are really the root of the problem?

[Double T]

45. It is NOT specifically the Mexican truck drivers I am against;..........

I do NOT hold prejudice against any people, with the exception of neocons and they're NOT people. The Mexican truck drivers are the pawns of the corrupt Mexican government and corrupt abusive corporate america. If the Mexican truck drivers are allowed to enter this country, the corrupt criminals win again.

[pampango]

54. I understand your sentiment. I just don't think that demonizing

Mexican truck drivers, which you see all over this thread, is a price worth paying to "win" one over the "masters". My guess is that the "masters" are happy to see us fighting over crumbs from their table and will come up with another "threat" to replace the Mexican drivers, once this issue is resolved, one way or the other. It keeps us occupied and prevents us from working with people who are exploited in much the same way that we are.

[txaslftist]

57. I don't think the Chinese workers and the Indian workers...

...really give a damn about American jobs. I don't think the factory owners in Bangladesh really care that their shirtmaking operation has shut down major US industries.

I recognize and appreciate sentiment toward the poor of Mexico and Latin America. I also recognize that they've been exploited and harmed, primarily by US based international companies. But they have governments, they have laws, and they have the right and responsibility to look after themselves. If there is a poor persons revolution in Mexico, I'm all for it.

But for some corporation to take advantage of the corrupt and union busting government of Mexico for the purposes of breaking the back of the Teamsters Union? And then to defend that action based on some notion that it's "racist" or "unfair to Mexicans" to oppose it?

That's absurd. There may be some egalitarian appeal to busting down the wages of us rich Americans until we are all working for the same wages as our beaten down Mexican and Guatemalan counterparts. I don't relish reversing the gains of one hundred years of labor strife for the purpose of "feeling good" about the "poor SCABS".

[pampango]

58. I think you are right that most Chinese and Indian workers don't

give a damn about American jobs. I suppose you could say the same about most Americans attitudes toward Chinese and Indian jobs. Most here won't care if Mexican truck drivers lose their jobs or don't get new driving jobs. It's the nature of the nationalist beast.

We probably agree more than we disagree, but what's the fun in talking about that. ;)

It is true that all Third World countries have governments and it is ultimately the responsibility of citizens there to solve their own problems. Maybe it is just me, but it seems like a very conservative viewpoint to leave the poor in those countries to solve their own problems with corrupt and unrepresentative governments. It was the same with the poor in the Jim Crow South. For a long time they were left to solve their problems with oppression by themselves. Perhaps given enough time they would have done that without intervention for outside the region. We all know that in reality intervention came from the outside and accelerated the pace of change and liberation.

No one, except for our country's power brokers, want to see our populace beaten down to the point of working for Third World wages. No one, I hope, will be satisfied if, in say 100 years, there is not a tremendous improvement in the distribution of wealth in the world, so that a child born anywhere has a reasonable equitable opportunity at a prosperous life. At what absolute level of prosperity that occurs is something I cannot answer. It is hard to accept a long term decline in our standard of living, but it is also hard to stomach perpetual American (or Western) economic superiority, because the earth's environment mandates that Asian, Africans and Hispanics cannot be allowed to live like the rest of us. I know that Europeans, on average, make much less than we do, but lead lives that are comparable, or superior, to our own, because of the way their societies are structured.

[txaslftist]

59. Leaving the poor in other countries to solve their own problems...

.. is what we HAVE to do. The poor in this country did so. The poor in Europe did so. The poor in Guatemala and Bangladesh can do so also. And they can do so without our "help", which I call "intervention".

After all, one of the reasons given for our rape of Iraq was to "liberate" the poor oppressed Iraqis (who by and large now wish we'd never bothered). That was an "intervention" which failed drastically.

And economic interventionism has its problems, too. Google "economic hit man" and you will discover that even seemingly benign institutions like the World Bank have become the tools of corporations to crush nations into perpetual third world status. There certainly is an element of this nation that would like to see American wages cut, our unions decimated, and economic disparities grow. Our union-forming, violent-striking, hard-hitting ancestors understood this. They understood that the "bosses" are different; less compassionate, less decent, more greedy.

They understood that the rich will kill the poor for profit.

That's a lesson we've largely forgotten because the struggle hasn't been sharpened like that for many, many years. This opening of our borders to reduce our wages is SCABISM on a collossal scale, carried out for the profit of the very rich and the harm of an entire section of our working economy. It's not a race issue, it's a union-busting, wage-busting issue.

[pampango]

62. Leaving the poor to solve their own problems is not my view of liberalism.

I don't look at the inner city and wonder when those poor people are going to get their act together and solve their problems. You are right that they must play the fundamental role in liberating themselves, but you are able to observe their problems with a scientific objectivity that I lack. More power to you. Perhaps your "tough love" approach of ignoring them until they figure it out for themselves and are able to do something about it, is the best strategy in the long run.

We just disagree. It's been nice talking with you.

[OzarkDem]

66. While we create more poverty here at home?

No one is buying the argument that we need to let Mexican truck drivers take US jobs so we can help them raise their standard of living at home.

The US is fast becoming a third world country thanks to the "cheap labor" policies of US businesses. No need to accelerate the downfall.

[qdemn7]

69. Charity begins at HOME..

As in right here in the US. We nned to worry about the poor right here in this country before we go "liberating" those south of the border.

[pampango]

73. Thank you for reminding me that Americans matter more AND

that we cannot do two things at the same time. I accuse the administration of valuing Iraqi deaths less than they do American deaths, so I should not have a hard time remembering that Mexican workers are worth less than American workers.

Americans matter more. George knows it. Many posters here seem to know it. Why can't I remember it?

[OzarkDem]

74. We can't help other countries

if our own country is bankrupt and its citizens live in poverty.

[pampango]

80. I agree with your conclusion just not your conditions.

If you compare our standard of living with a Mexican's or anyone else in the Third World, it is difficult to tell them that we would help them if we could, but our country is bankrupt and our citizens live in poverty. They know real bankruptcy and real poverty.

[qdemn7]

83. We have plenty of poor people

Right here in America. In inner cities, in rural areas.

[pampango]

94. We certainly do. Mexico and the rest of the Third World just have

even more than we do and they should count as human beings even though they are not Americans.

[Odin2005]

12. Canuck truckers aren't paid 3rd World wages.

And thus they don't harm US truckers.

[madrchsod]

13. insurance and the court system.....

try suing in a mexican court for damages do to an accident involving a trucking company or driver. insurance companies? good luck trying to get them to pay. unless there is a equal system to recover on injuries or damages then they should not roll past the border.

i`m not going to comment on the rest of the problems involved in this issue because they are pretty much already being discussed

[AnneD]

49. I had not even thought of that issue...

but it is true. You have to have proof of insurance in Mexico and God help you if you have an accident. I had a friend traveling years ago that had to pay bribe to get out of a fender bender. You do not want to get involved in the court system.

[Beelzebud]

15. Because Canadian truckers get paid a decent wage and don't drive down the cost of labor.

[treestar]

18. So isn't the solution that Mexican truckers be paid a decent wage

too?

How is that to take place?

People will do what they have to in order to survive. They don't just vaporize. Their government doesn't take care of them, they aren't children. Our government doesn't "take care" of us, either.

[alfredo]

21. Union breaking. US trucker will have to take wage cut or the trucking

companies will move to Mexico.

What about the ports. Will it be cheaper to ship to Mexico, then have it delivered by cheaper Mexican transport companies? What will happen to the Longshoremen?

[treestar]

36. Does everyone have an absolute right to stay in the job they have?

What if the company really doesn't sell its products?

What about people who are taking deliveries from these Mexican trucks? Even those who think Americans are somehow inherently more valuable aren't thinking of them. What about your neighbors who have their jobs because of the increased commerce?

You're just saying some people should get to keep their jobs that others not get new ones, and that can include Americans.

What's the solution for everybody, one that doesn't necessarily create a greater right to exist based on grounds of birth or that fact we know them personally or that we just don't know how to envision the abstraction of another person's job?

[alfredo]

40. A well educated middle class is important in maintaining

a democratic society. The middle class has a lot of power. the ruling elite do not like the political and economic power of the middle class.

Remember, it was an educated middle class that instigated the war for independence.

[OzarkDem]

67. And let them take jobs from US drivers?

Sorry, no.

[pampango]

68. They wouldn't be taking the jobs from US drivers any more than the Canadian

drivers are. What's the difference?

[OzarkDem]

76. Yes, they would

and you know it.

[pampango]

93. If we let Canadian truck drivers go all over the our country instead of

restricting them to a zone of 25 miles from the border like we do the Mexicans, why are they not taking jobs from American truck drivers? Why shouldn't we restrict the Canadians to the same type of border zone, then Americans drivers can take the loads the rest of the way within our borders? More jobs for Americans that way.

[TahitiNut]

16. Obviously it's racism. That, after all, is also why folks think the Canadian health care system is

... better than the Mexican health care system. Yup. Same thing.

:sarcasm:

[pampango]

22. I suspect it is more of a class or nationality issue, at least at DU.

(Now at Freeperville that would be a different story.)

Most of the opposition to Mexican truck drivers I have seen here centers on the fact that they are poor (consequently their wages are low) and are, therefore, a threat to us. You see the same sentiment when middle class suburbanites don't want low-income housing in their neighborhood. (They will harm the quality of life.)

Traditionally, Hispanics and Asians haven't generated the kind of racial tension that we are familiar with in Black-White relationships in our country. Perhaps this is changing now.

The nationality justification would only come into play for those who believe that other nationalities should not have access to the same economic opportunities, because they did not have the good fortune to be born American.

[TahitiNut]

25. Of course. As EVERYBODY knows, there are no legitimate differences between Mexico and Canada ...

... and any perception there are is purely bigotry.


:sarcasm:

[pampango]

28. There are huge differences between Mexico and Canada.

Canadians have a legitimately high standard of living and Mexicans have a legitimately low standard of living. To treat them more harshly because one is poor and one is not would be the definition of bigotry towards the poor without necessarily being racial bigotry. Just the same as if the harsh treatment was directed at Mexicans because they are Hispanic and not Caucasian, that would be the definition of racial bigotry.

That's why I think that, at least at DU, this is a class or nationality issue, not a racial one.

[treestar]

17. Because Canadians are mostly white and middle class, you see

And so presumably their trucks up are to par. :sarcasm:

Their economy is good enough that massive numbers of Canadians don't migrate here (in fact, they may see a need to control their Southern border soon).

They are not subject to the prejudice that their safety standards are too low, or to the prejudice that they will violate them (it is my understanding these Mexican trucks are subject to our standards if they come in anyway).

It is the idea that economic activity should take place only within a country's borders, an idea that even medieval people were too advanced for.

It is the idea that every foreigner's presence in the US somehow hurts some US citizen economically, and just in case I want that trucking job, it should remain empty (and whoever would benefit from it, including US citizens, is just too abstract a person and doesn't count.)

[qdemn7]

72. Amazing how easily

Some Progressives are willing to sell out fellow Americans. :puke:

[pampango]

77. And others the poor because they were born in the wrong country. n/t

[spoony]

84. And call them racists whilst doing it!

[porphyrian]

19. Canadians aren't as brown as Mexicans.

And, with the exception of the Quebecois, they don't speak funny languages.

[marmar]

92. Have you been to Toronto?

Canadians are as brown, black, white, yellow and every shade in between as people in any nation on this great green earth, because Canadians (at least Torontonians) represent every shade and hue of skin on this earth.

[porphyrian]

96. No, and I know that.

I just don't feel the need to spoon feed people cues when I'm sarcastic.

[NNN0LHI]

23. We wouldn't be in Iraq if we were killing white folks there either

Thats how it works.

Don

[pampango]

24. I don't know. Some of those Iraqis are pretty light skinned.

They just speak a funny language. ;)

[hedgehog]

26. No one has mentioned that the Mexican government isn't wide

known for its incorruptibility, either. I'm sure the purchase of a Mexican safety certificate would be cheaper than actually bringing a truck up to standards.

BTW - anyone have information on the training and health standards required to get a Mexican truck driver's license?

[LeftyMom]

27. Canadian trucks aren't deathtraps and Canadians aren't driving wages down.

Jeez, that one isn't even a hard question.

[RB TexLa]

35. So if say 5,000 loads are driven in the US by each countries drivers

instead of being unloaded at the borders, meaning 10,000 loads are taken away from US truckers. In that scenario you think the fact that the 5,000 Canadian driven loads taken away from the US truckers don't lower wages because the foreigner driving them is making more money for taking the loads away?

[MadHound]

29. There are some legit reasons for keeping Mexican trucks off of our roads

The first is the fact that they still use leaded fuel in Mexico(unlike Canada and the US). So lets say that we start letting Mexican short run trucks(which normally burn gasoline) come across the border, that is going to provide a 2-300 mile radius of the US, all along the border which will become polluted with lead bearing fumes. Not a very good idea.

In addition, Mexico's environmental regulations in regards to their vehicles are much less stringent than ours, no catalytic converters, that sort of thing is mandated in Mexico. This is one of the reasons that I can't bring one of the old school VW Beetles up from Mexico where they are still being made. It would increase the pollution load in our country.

Then there are technological issues with their trucks, things like the lack of ABS systems and other safety measures that make US trucks safer for the driver and the traffic around them. Yes, it would make me nervous to have a Mexican truck next to me on the road, knowing that he's flying along at 70 or 80 mph, with a load of ten or twenty thousand pounds, all with forty year old automotive tech.

These are legit concerns that surround this issue, and until they're resolved I don't think Mexican trucks should be let into the states. It's just asking for disaster.

[wuushew]

32. I think they stopped making Beetles a few years ago

By 2003 Beetle annual production had fallen to 30,000 from a peak of 1.3 million in 1971. On July 30, 2003, the final original VW Beetle (No. 21,529,464) was produced at Puebla, Mexico, some 65 years after its original launch, and an unprecedented 58-year production run since 1945 (the year VW recognizes as the first year of non-Nazi funded production.) VW announced this step in June, citing decreasing demand. The last car was immediately shipped off to the company's museum in Wolfsburg, Germany.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle

[MadHound]

33. Aww, that's a shame, end of an era

Even if I couldn't bring one back, it's nice to know that they were still rolling off the line somewhere.

[RebelOne]

42. When I was in Mexico City and Acapulco, Beetles were just about

the only cars on the road. Even my cab drivers drove Beetles.

[Tesha]

108. Diesel doesn't include lead. Most trucks run on diesel. (NT)

[MadHound]

114. Actually a lot of the shorter haul trucks

The ones that would be used to run up into the border areas, do use regular gas. In addition, while many of the Mexican trucks fuel up on PeMex diesel(cleaner than US standards), many more don't, fueling up older, more polluting trucks with dirtier fuel that is higher in sulphur. It is estimated that one in three Mexican trucks don't meet current air quality standards in the US.

Again, this isn't some vague threat, it will be a very real problem if we let them have free passage through the US.

[txaslftist]

30. You are right. Let's ban Canadian trucks, too.

Okay with me.

[SidDithers]

37. $1.5 Billion / day in cross-border trade with Canada...

would come screeching to a halt.

I think Americans sometimes forget who their biggest trading partner is.

Sid

[txaslftist]

44. Nonsense. We've banned Mexican trucks for years.;

Cross border trade with Mexico has hardly come to a screeching halt. The Canadians would simply have to set up disembarkation stations like the Mexicans have, which would provide jobs for lumpers, more US drivers, etc.

So Canada is our biggest trading partner. I hardly think banning Canadian drivers and trucks from our roads would change that. It would just demolish a large portion of the Canadian trucking industry in favor of American drivers. Just like the present plan to open US roads to Mexican drivers will demolish a large part of the American trucking industry in favor of Mexican truckers.

It's competition.

[pampango]

48. Interesting thought, txaslftist. Banning Canadian truck drivers would

result in many more jobs and much more income for American drivers. That would seem to be a winner at DU.

There would be little cost to us, assuming that Canada was nice enough not to retaliate for us reneging on part of our treaty with them. Though the Canadian trucking industry might suffer greatly, they are not Americans so why should that bother us. (I don't really subscribe to that view, I am only presenting it as an approximation of what the "Americans are all that matter" crowd might say to your idea.)

It will be interesting to see if DU'ers feel that Canadians are "American enough" that their trucking industry should not be harmed, while Mexican truckers are not "American enough".

On edit: You do know that it was Reagan in 1982 who restricted Mexican truckers to a 25-mile zone around the border.

[WinkyDink]

34. We have (or used to have) more open borders with Canada, also.

We don't have an immense illegal immigration problem with Canada.
There isn't any well-publicized drug-smuggling operation from Canada.

[wuushew]

38. Canada is very similar to the United States economically

look at this map of Purchasing Power Parity. If an American company chooses a Canadian trucker or vice versa it is most likely they are more efficient at trucking a given good.

Look at Mexico, look at China they are paler because they are less wealthy in an absolute sense. Trading between the top dogs(blue) and everything else results in the top being dragged down to the global average. This is not comparative advantage given equal inputs it is absolute advantage based on cheapness.

[pampango]

50. God save us from the poor.

Wall them off and keep them out of my life. Is that the idea?

"If an American company chooses a Canadian trucker or vice versa it is most likely they are more efficient at trucking a given good." - Is there way to structure this trucking system so that Mexican trucks could be chosen if, in a given instance, they are more efficient at transporting a given good? Or is it impossible that a Mexican trucker could ever qualify to do that? (I know that kind of stereotyping of Mexicans sounds racist, but I have but it seems to be a common perception in some places.)

"Look at Mexico, look at China they are paler because they are less wealthy in an absolute sense." - The map certainly does show that very dramatically. They are absolutely poorer than the US, Canada, Australia, Japan and Western Europe.

"Trading between the top dogs(blue) and everything else results in the top being dragged down to the global average. This is not comparative advantage given equal inputs it is absolute advantage based on cheapness." - The map, though beautiful, does not prove this. Is there a country on that map that could be used as a historical example of having been dragged from the top dog (blue) category to the paler categories by an influx of Third World truckers or immigrants or manufactured goods? Perhaps they could invent a new color for countries that used to be top dogs but have been dragged down to paler colors by poor Third World people.

[OzarkDem]

78. A good first step

would be to avoid creating more of them.

[JBoy]

99. Cool map!

Interesting how Iraq has "no data". Must'a got lost with the WMD.

[Marrah_G]

39. Here is a little CLUE

Canadian drivers make the same or more then American Drivers. No rush to outsource American jobs to the Canadian Drivers. Mexican drivers make ALOT less then American drivers.

This is not about race, no matter how much YOU want it to be.

[sufrommich]

55. Thank you

Union workers need to protect union jobs. Odd that so many Democrats here don't seem to get that.

[Kajsa]

60. Heck no--

this is all about "racism", don't cha know?

:sarcasm:

I even had two posters in another thread ( Nafta Superhighway)
ask me " what do union related issues have to do with this?"

Arggh! :banghead:

[OzarkDem]

64. Most US truck drivers aren't union

they're just working class people trying to make a decent living in a very demanding and stressful job.

Most don't have health insurance or pensions, either. But they do have to receive rigorous training and pass regular drug tests.

They deserve to earn a living wage and be allowed to operate safely (with adequate rest) the same as the rest of us.

[LSK]

43. what is your DOCUMENTATION of this?

[AnneD]

46. If you have ever driven in Mexico....

you would not be asking this question......

1) lax safety standards and inspections-we have may 'tour buses' that travel between Texas and Mexico. From the smoke belching out of many I have seen-I wonder how much of a bribe was payed to let them through.

2) language differences. Signs are in one language for a reason (unless they can use EU type signs-and you can't always do that). It is a safety issue-much like all international pilots must know English with a good degree of fluency.

3) illegal aliens. No this is not what you think. I am talking about unwanted bug and insects that can hitch a ride. We are already swamped at our ports with foreign species that do horrific damage (Formosa termites, zebra mussels, tiger mosquitoes). They travel south to north and as cold weather is a deterrent-we don't worry much about them coming down from Canada.

4) outsourcing of jobs on our own soil. We have been steadily loosing good paying jobs in this country. I am no happier about loosing truck jobs to Canada but the pay scales are similar so it is a fair deal. But with Mexico and their lower labour costs-our truckers would lose. The Construction industry, the meat packing industry, road construction, and landscaping all use to be good paying jobs. Not any more. Nafta was a Shafta and until we stop this 'free trade' and negotiate for 'fair trade', I will continue my opposition.

I have traveled alot and driven in other countries. We speak multiple language in our home so there is no xenophobia here. BUT, I live close to the border and this is a no win for us, not a win-win like we were promised.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. It hasn't been the win-win promised to miexcans either

and yes I have driven in Mexico, actually I have driven an EMERGENCY VEHICLE wiht lights and sirens

[AnneD]

63. The only ones coming out ahead...

are the corporations.

[earth mom]

52. First off, this is SCAB labor and a very real attempt at breaking the Teamsters Union.

Maybe you haven't noticed the systematic attempts at Union busting by the rethugs for years with * & Co working feverishly toward that end since they first stole office.

Secondly, those trucks are unsafe.

Thirdly, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that smuggling is also a very likely reality.

:(

[judaspriestess]

53. The anger I've read directed to the actual Mexican driver

doing his job is well, misdirected. All the talk from American truck drivers of how they are going to flatten the tires, run them off the road etc (based on postings of people who have heard this from American truck drivers) That same anger needs to be directed at ALL the officials and the policies of allowing it to happen. Whether their wages are lower or not is not the issue, they are doing what they are being allowed to do by the signing of NAFTA. DIRECT THAT ANGER WHERE IT BELONGS. To the US government, local government, US companies looking for cheaper labor. We the people have the power to stand up and change what is going on but instead its directed to some guy who will probably get killed and his family will lose a father, brother, husband income provider forever, not that it matters to some because it is a race issue to them and that is what is truly sad.

[AZBlue]

56. Two simple reasons: how it affects US truck drivers and safety.

It's not about race. Sorry.

[Kajsa]

61. Response from Barbara Boxer

- One of my Senators.

Dear Ms.***:

Thank you for contacting me regarding the safety of Mexican-owned trucks on U.S. highways. I share your concerns and am pleased to report that the Senate recently acted to address them.

As you may know, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) contained a provision to give Mexican trucks access to U.S. roads. During the debate over NAFTA, I joined many members of Congress in raising critical safety concerns about this provision and in working to pass legislation requiring Mexican trucks to meet certain safety standards before gaining full access to the Unites States.

The Bush Administration claims it has met the standards set by Congress and recently implemented a one-year pilot program allowing certain Mexican trucks to drive anywhere in our country.

I am deeply concerned about these trucks entering the United States . I strongly believe that the drivers of these trucks should have valid commercial driving licenses and comply with our hours-of-service laws. The trucks should adhere to our weight limit regulations and clean air requirements.

That is why I am pleased to report that on September 11, 2007, the Senate passed an amendment to the Transportation Appropriations bill (H.R.3074) that would block a program allowing certain Mexican trucks to drive anywhere in the United States. I voted for this amendment, which passed with an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote of 75-23.

We must protect the air quality and safety of our communities, and we must also ensure that these trucks meet our transportation safety standards. Rest assured that I am closely monitoring this situation and will keep working to protect the safety of the American people and environment.

Again, thank you for writing to me. Please keep in touch with me about this and any other issue of concern to you.

Barbara Boxer
United States Senator

Please visit my website at http://boxer.senate.gov

[chaska]

65. It's a matter of wages and the number of individuals involved. Protect American working class jobs..

or lose elections. And justly so.

Canadians aren't a major issue. On the other hand, there are huge numbers of Mexicans coming here.

[Catherine Vincent]

70. Not Mexicans per say.

But Mexican Trucks. At least the headlines consistently call them "Mexican Trucks." :)

[ecstatic]

75. I'd guess similar wages, better safety (1st world vs. 3rd world)

:shrug:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

79. Well, I know why people are protesting

One of the reasons is because unions are afraid Mexicans will be allowed to take their workers' jobs at a fraction of the pay. Last I noticed, Canada had a pretty high standard of living, and I don't think anyone has to worry that they will work for a fraction of American wages.

[A HERETIC I AM]

81. I am curious how many that respond to this topic think Mexican trucks will be picking up freight ...

in the US and delivering it in the US.

Is that what so many of you are concerned about? How many of you think that a Canadian driver can cross the border with a load bound for Kansas City, MO., Deliver it, go over to KC KS, make a pick up and deliver that load to Chicago then reload and head back to Toronto?

How many of you think that is what happens and how many of you think that sort of thing is what is GOING to happen with Mexican trucks?

[Maq]

88. re: A HERETIC I AM, post # 81

In addition to our discussion on another thread, Alfredos' post brings up another issue related to this Trucking Transportation topic. There will be a longshoreman job shift too. Reference our Citrus thread; Already Concentrate Orange Juice is shipped to New Jersey Ports rather than to a Florida port from Brazil. Many American Goods imported to this country can be more effectively dropped off at Central American Ports for retransport via the mexican (central american) trucking industry.

If you had "X # of $$" to invest in a port improvement; what would you choose Central America versus an american Port. Given this extra variable.

Now, as too your direct question about Canadian drivers picking up cargo in the USA for short drop shipping to another American
city. I cannot answer that but can come close. I know of a canadian driver who would drop off cargo in flrida and then shop around for cargo for transport to Montreal, PQ,Canada. Often, it would be farm prodice such as watermelon etc. Further, the driver was a Canadian or North American Indian who could by Treaty Right, work on both sides of the border. aybe this answer due to the circumstances does not apply.

alfredo (1000+ posts) , Wed Sep-12-07 10:57 AM, Response to Reply #18
21. Union breaking. US trucker will have to take wage cut or the trucking companies will move to Mexico.

What about the ports. Will it be cheaper to ship to Mexico, then have it delivered by cheaper Mexican transport companies? What will happen to the Longshoremen?

Edited on Wed Sep-12-07 11:04 AM by alfredo


SOURCE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1790516#1790617

[A HERETIC I AM]

90. So the answer is no?

Is that your understanding? Your Canadian driver friend obviously does not. Forget about what alfredo said in post 21, the ports/longshoreman issue is very complex and not what i asked about anyway. I just want to get a sense of how many people think point to point freight hauling inside the US is being done by Canadians and if it will be done by Mexicans.

I already know the answer. I am just very curious how well this situation is understood by others.

[Maq]

91. Oui mon ami

.

[Marrah_G]

110. That is not what is happening

But this will still decimate our shipping industry. If companies can ship into Mexican ports and deliver with Mexican drivers why would they continue to ship to American ports and deliver with American drivers?

Pickup and delivery within the states is not allowed.

[madokie]

82. a lot of replies without any input of your own other than the op

hope you haven't been run over by one of them there Mexican trucks :rofl:

[Ikonoklast]

85. You'll get to see this happen first-hand

Mexican truck not licensed to haul explosives A truck loaded with ammonium nitrate that exploded Sunday evening in northern Mexico was not licensed to carry explosives, according to the San Antonio Express-News.

The massive explosion killed at least 28 people and injured 130 more – although some accounts place the death toll at 37 with 150 injured.

A witness told reporters the dynamite truck crashed as it was trying to overtake a pickup truck on a highway near Monclova.

The witness said the unidentified truck driver yelled that he was carrying explosives and then fled the scene, the Express-News reported.

About 40 minutes later – as emergency workers, reporters and onlookers were gathered around the wreck – the truck caught fire and exploded.

[slackmaster]

86. Obviously its racist at its core

We don't want little brown-skinned invaders running roughshod over our country.

[Elwood P Dowd]

87. You have no clue

and neither do any of the other posters claiming racism. Is Barbara Boxer racist? Is Byron Dorgan racist? Is the Sierra Club racist? Is Public Citizen racist? Are 75 US Senators, including most Democrats, racist? All of these people are against the low-wage Mexican truckers replacing US truckers. They have serious concerns about safety and job losses.

[slackmaster]

97. I suppose a Sarcasm smiley would have been helpful for you

:D

You can count on a subset of DUers declaring Racism or Sexism at the slightest provocation, even when a careful reading of the evidence doesn't support it.

The real issue here, seriously, is organized labor wrapping itself in claims of public safety concerns.

[qdemn7]

101. No I'd say the real issue

Is protecting American jobs, and the American middle class.

[pampango]

105. What about the suggestion upthread that Canadian truck drivers

should also be restricted to a 25-mile zone from the border? American truck drivers would then be employed for the rest of the journey to the ultimate US destination. Restricting Canadian truck drivers would help America jobs and the middle class. Good idea?

[Marrah_G]

111. Yes

But in reality Canadian truckers won't work for a fraction of what an American trucker will and therefore won't be massively undercutting wages as we have seen in other industries.

[pampango]

116. If yes, then let us restrict Canadian and Mexican truck drivers alike.

Those concerned only about American jobs and income will be happy and those concerned with unequal treatment of Mexican truck drivers will be happy.

Heck even some Repubs might be happy, since it was Reagan who restricted Mexican trucks in 1982. (I am not sure why Reagan and the corporations wanted to restrict cheaper Mexican truck drivers at that time.)

[qdemn7]

118. Sounds fine to me.....

I have no problem with that at all.

[slackmaster]

121. So we protect it against Mexicans, but not Canadians

It's all clear to me now.

:crazy:

[pampango]

123. How many times to you have to be told that

Canadians driving trucks outside of a 25 mile border zone...do not...cost American jobs.
Mexicans driving trucks outside of a 25 mile border zone...do...cost American jobs.

(Just kidding. You and I are on the same side on this one. The "Canadian-good, Mexican-bad" distinction leaves a bad taste.)

I think the Canadians have some kind of a magic potion that convinces Americans that they are no threat. Or maybe they have an invisibility cloak like Harry Potter has, so that we don't notice them as much.

Mexicans, on the other hand, must have some kind of a curse, because every time they set foot across the border, whether as an illegal immigrant or a legal truck driver, the welcome mat gets rolled up in a big hurry. Maybe they need to borrow that cloak from Harry once the Canadians are finished with it.

[slackmaster]

124. I like both Mexicans and Candians

They mostly seem like kind, generous people.

But Mexican food is a lot better.

:hide:

[pampango]

125. True on both counts.

I've been to Ontario, Quebec and Alberta, though, and I didn't know that there even was "Canadian" food.

[Maq]

89. North American Indians are brown skinned, please

clarify.















LOL

[JVS]

95. Canadians have regulations and wages that are similar to those of the US...

and thus endanger neither our public safety nor our people's standard of living.

[LostinVA]

102. Damn you and your

LOGIC!

[JVS]

103. Well I was about to say "cuz them mescans is brown", but then I had the insight to use logic

:sarcasm: ;-)

[pampango]

104. Yeah, brown has little to do with it, except for Rush, Tancredo and the Minutemen.

Here the problem with "mescans" seems to be that they are poor and Canadians aren't.

[pampango]

109. Another form of logic would be to follow the provisions of a treaty

that you agreed to with another country until you withdraw from it or renegotiate it. If I were a country that was negotiating a treaty with the US in the future, I would keep in mind that even if the treaty is signed by the president and approved by the Congress, the US seems to reserve the right to unilaterally decide which parts of the treaty it will follow and which ones it will ignore.

I guess we could let the other side do the same and decide which parts of an agreement that actually have to follow, but then why bother to negotiate treaties anyway? We could become the anti-negotiation, anti-treaty party, though i am not sure how future disputes would get resolved peacefully.

[UTUSN]

98. 90-something responses & this is ONLY K&R number TWO??!!1 n/t

[TankLV]

100. Canada is a lterate, first rate country of laws and regulations almost IDENTICAL to the USA.

Mexico is a corrupt, third world country at best, overrun by drug criminals, it has a long and varied history of lawlessness and backwardsness, whereas Canada doesn't, and they can't even or WON'T even try to fix it.

Kinda like having the worst of Russia - or Bangladesh or Paksitan at our doorstep...

Thanks for asking.

I hope this provides some answers...

[pampango]

112. It provides some answers, but as much about your attitudes as about trucking.

You don't seem to have a lot of positive things to say about Mexico and Mexicans. Most people in the world seem to be able to differentiate between American people and the government. They frequently, especially now, have serious problems with the policies of our government, but are open and friendly with American people whom they come into contact with.

I have spent time in Mexico City and other parts of the country with friends from college. As they freely admit, their country has many problems, but it also has an overwhelming majority of honest, hardworking people, just like any other country in the world. To call Mexico a "corrupt, third world country at best" (I would hate to hear what you think of Mexico "at worst") overrun by drug criminals, it has a long and varied history of lawlessness and backwardsness(sic)" is about as small minded and xenophobic a comment as I have heard.

Is there a "white" country that you feel the same way about or a Third World country that you have a positive assessment of?

I have read RW'ers who feel the same way about our inner cities - "overrun by drug criminals, it has a long and varied history of lawlessness and backwardsness(sic)". You can build a wall to keep the Mexican out and the RW'ers can build a wall to keep the inner city isolated. Welcome to the club.

[cgrindley]

106. Uh... you're not seriously asking this question, right?

the answer, as you probably well know, is a 50/50 combination of inferiority and racism.

[B Calm]

107. I drove my 18 wheeler in Canada, but I never have drove in Mexico..

Much cheaper for carriers to leave trailers at the Mexican border and hire Mexicans. Mexico is not on a level playing field when it comes to truck driver wages.

[4dsc]

115. Mexico is known for its lawlessness

That is why American truckers don't go to Mexico!

[pampango]

117. No, Mexico is stereotyped by many as being known for lawlessness.

Thanks for contributing to that. 99% of Mexicans are honest hard-working people, just like Americans, Canadians, French, and Australians.

Does Mexico have a problem with government corruption? Sure. Only the US has been able to produce a corruption-free society. ;) Do we keep out all the honest Mexicans because we stereotype them all as corrupt drug dealers.

If I am afraid to drive in a certain part of the city, I do not propose that residents there should not be allowed to drive in my neighborhood, if they feel safe doing so. Perhaps in the future that part of the city will change and the way will already be clear for me to drive there.

[robcon]

122. I never thought I'd see that on DU.

"Mexico is known for its lawlessness"

Yeah, and n*****s are shiftless, and Japs are sneaky, sp*cs are law-breakers, Polacks are stupid, and the Irish are drunks. :sarcasm:

[LanternWaste]

126. I must have missed the lawlessness part when I lived in Q-Roo...

I must have missed the lawlessness part when I lived in Q-Roo. Is the lawlessness relegated to a specific part of the country or spread out like it is in the U.S.?

Gotta be honest with you on this one chief-- I felt safer walking through the streets of any Q-Roo city after dark than I ever felt walking through any TX city after dark...

[Hoof Hearted]

129. Have you ever driven in Mexico? Not the tourist traps, real Mexico.

The states of disrepair and chaos can be stunning.

I'm all for allowing the trucks in - with stringent controls, standards and monitoring.