I haven't heard any discussion of the national debt today

[bpeale]

it was mentioned on Thom Hartmann this morning that the debt ceiling had been raised to $10 trillion!!! why is this not news???

[flashl]

1. Heres link to story on web

Senate Panel Votes Debt Limit Hike

[Trillo]

5. From your link

We have now raised the debt limit of the United States nearly $4 trillion on his watch," said Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, D-N.D.

BushCo and allies promoting the theory of more spending and even bigger Government.

I think one thing in the article is wrong, however. I believe the U.S. government has defaulted on its debt at times in its past history.

[A HERETIC I AM]

8. When? n/t

[Trillo]

9. It was a memory from reading long ago.

I think 1933 was one such time.

edit: However, I have also read that the early 1800s there were many govt defaults. It's possible I misread, or was reading inaccurate sources....

Here's one possible lead:
http://www.nber.org/papers/h0097

Here's another reference:

55. That, when a government becomes bankrupt, it loses its

sovereignty; that, in the year 1933, the United States declared

bankruptcy, as expressed in President Roosevelt's Executive

Orders 6073, 6102, 6111 and 6260, see Senate Report 93-549, pages

187, 594, under the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, codified

at 12 U.S.C. 95, see also House Joint Resolution number 192

(hereinafter "HJR 192"), dated June 5, 1933, confirmed in Perry

v. U.S., 294 U.S. 330-381 (1935), 79 L.Ed. 912, and 31 U.S.C.

5112, 5119;

Source: http://www.supremelaw.org/cc/nlhc/affidav.htm

[A HERETIC I AM]

11. If we are speaking about US Treasury bonds, there has never been a default -

Default being defined as "1. The failure to promptly pay interest or principal when due. Default occurs when a debtor is unable to meet the legal obligation of debt repayment. Borrowers may default when they are unable to make the required payment or are unwilling to honor the debt." (From http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/default2.asp )

There has never been an instance where the United States Treasury failed to make a timely payment of interest or redeem a bond on maturity. (That i can find an instance of, anyway)

I typed into Google the sentence "Has US Government ever defaulted on debt" and got 1.9 million hits. Well, i really don't have the time to read through 1.9 million articles but one caught my eye on the first page. This one;

http://www.lewrockwell.com/englund/englund18.html

Scroll almost all the way down and you will find this interesting bit;

But what about defaulting on Treasury bonds in the 20th century? Has this ever happened in the U.S.? As a matter of fact, it has – refer to the U.S. Supreme Court case Perry v. United States, 294 U.S. 330 (1935). Per this case, John M. Perry "purchased" a $10,000 "Fourth Liberty Loan 4¼% Gold Bond of 1933–1938." When Mr. Perry sought repayment, the federal government refused to pay the loan back, in gold coin, and forced Mr. Perry to accept $10,000 of legal tender currency instead. Briefly here are some details from the case:

Plaintiff brought suit as the owner of an obligation of the United States for $10,000, known as 'Fourth Liberty Loan 4 1/4% Gold Bond of 1933– 1938.' This bond was issued pursuant to the Act of September 24, 1917, 1 et seq. (40 Stat. 288), as amended, and Treasury Department circular No. 121 dated September 28, 1918. The bond...provided: The principal and interest hereof are payable in United States gold coin of the present standard of value.

When FDR, via his 1933 Executive Order, declared it illegal to own circulating gold coins, gold bullion, and gold certificates, the federal government forced itself into the position of defaulting on paying the above mentioned Liberty bondholders in the prescribed gold coin. Hence, subsequent to FDR’s executive order, all holders of such bonds were forced to accept legal tender currency instead of "gold coin of the present standard of value." The act of confiscating gold itself was a violation of private property rights and was illegal – regardless of what government apologists say. In turn, by not paying bondholders in gold coin, the U.S. government has technically defaulted on past Treasury bond obligations. As expected, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against Mr. Perry and in favor of Uncle Sam. This does not change the chilling truth that, in the past, the U.S. government has exercised arbitrary power to change the rules of the bond market (i.e. the means of repayment) by trampling private property rights. A default is a default.

Yes, and a Red Herring is usually Red. Granted, in the strictest sense, i suppose this author is correct. But the US Government did not refuse to repay the debt, it just would not pay it in gold coin. Note that if you click the "home" link at the top of that page, you find the author is a strict Libertarian. That doesn't mean he is wrong, i just find it interesting.

Many DU'rs have commented in the past on whether or not Treasury securities are risk free and what exactly they are based on. The author of the article above makes some valid points regarding the rating of US Government securities but i think misses one important point; one that I have made before on other threads that may bear repeating.

Why is it that US Treasuries are seen by the worldwide investing community as having virtually Zero risk? They aren't backed by $20 trillion in gold reserves, so what is it? It is simply this: Treasuries are seen as having no risk because Americans get up every day, go to work and willingly pay taxes on their wages. As a country, we have regular, peaceful (for the most part) transfers of political power and we don't burn down the Capitol building every decade or so. We have financial markets that are deep, extremely liquid, well regulated and politically stable.
That in my opinion is truly what it is all about. We are a good credit risk because we are good Americans.

Now, having said that, I think one of the, if not the biggest dangers Bush presents to our country and the worldwide economy as a whole is if his escapades would have the effect of simply lowering the credit rating of this country. If there even begins to be the slightest doubt in the mind of the investing community that we will continue to pay interest on time and pay back maturing bonds when presented, then we are in serious fucking trouble.

[Javaman]

2. Because it would make the mouthbreathers of this nation

upset. come on, I thought you knew that by now.

:cry:

[bpeale]

3. i'm sitting here hyperventilating just thinking about it

that means my retirement is worthless.

[Javaman]

12. You must be young lol I have already resigned myself to dying at my desk. nt

[hfojvt]

4. Does it have anything to do with Britney? What about Jessica Simpson?

I have not heard about her in months. National Debt Ceiling? :boring:

[DemGa]

6. Chimpy added Three Trillion to the National Debt

No mention in the liberal media. :shrug:

[Elwood P Dowd]

7. I posted Hartmann's statment early this afternoon

but the post only stayed around a few minutes.

[valerief]

10. I don't know what to be more appalled by with this admin. It's one thing after another. nt

[Selatius]

13. Correct me: Does Congress decide the debt ceiling or the White House?

I was under the impression that the House/Senate decide.