Pot Prisoners Cost Americans $1 Billion a Year

[Duppers]

Pot Prisoners Cost Americans $1 Billion a Year
By Paul Armentano, AlterNet
Posted on February 10, 2007, Printed on February 11, 2007

American taxpayers are now spending more than a billion dollars per year to incarcerate its citizens for pot. That's according to statistics recently released by the U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics.

According to the new BJS report, "Drug Use and Dependence, State and Federal Prisoners, 2004," 12.7 percent of state inmates and 12.4 percent of federal inmates incarcerated for drug violations are serving time for marijuana offenses. Combining these percentages with separate U.S. Department of Justice statistics on the total number of state and federal drug prisoners suggests that there are now about 33,655 state inmates and 10,785 federal inmates behind bars for marijuana offenses. The report failed to include estimates on the percentage of inmates incarcerated in county and/or local jails for pot-related offenses.

Multiplying these totals by U.S. DOJ prison expenditure data reveals that taxpayers are spending more than $1 billion annually to imprison pot offenders.

The new report is noteworthy because it undermines the common claim from law enforcement officers and bureaucrats, specifically White House drug czar John Walters, that few, if any, Americans are incarcerated for marijuana-related offenses. In reality, nearly 1 out of 8 U.S. drug prisoners are locked up for pot.

more: http://www.alternet.org/story/47815/

[marmar]

1. That's truely a billion wasted.....

Free them....and legalize it. :smoke:

[helderheid]

24. No shit!!

[diane in sf]

156. free the pot prisoners--

what a waste of lives and money

[Cobalt Violet]

2. K & R

[Duppers]

5. thanks.

Note the author's comments at the end of the article:

Marijuana isn't a harmless substance, and those who argue for a change in the drug's legal status do not claim it to be. However, pot's relative risks to the user and society are arguably fewer than those of alcohol and tobacco, and they do not warrant the expenses associated with targeting, arresting and prosecuting hundreds of thousands of Americans every year.

According to federal statistics, about 94 million Americans -- that's 40 percent of the U.S. population age 12 or older -- self-identify as having used cannabis at some point in their lives, and relatively few acknowledge having suffered significant deleterious health effects due to their use. America's public policies should reflect this reality, not deny it. It makes no sense to continue to treat nearly half of all Americans as criminals.



http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3443

[mntleo2]

3. The Prison Industrial Complex

... so as for-profit corporate prisons mushroom across the nation, where they "employ" prisoners ~ basically enslave them ~ the taxpayers pay for the infrastructure, since the corporation is being so "nice" to step in and try to "help" with the burgeoning problems of the ever growing prison population, we will not see any drug laws go away for a long time. Too many downright great profits from imprisoning pot users and other drug users. these immoral greedheads get to enslave someone for years, make profit off them, never have to pay a dime for facilities, housing and the like, and sit back and rake the money in. Then be patted on the back for "making America safe".

Bu$h's friends at work!

Bastards!

Cat In Seattle

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. Bingo! You hit the nail on its proverbial head. eom

[ixion]

6. yep, that's at the core of the problem

and the irony is that, insteading of spending a billion, taxpayers could make far more than that by legalizing and regulating.

Instead, however, we're paying out wads of cash to corrupt corporations. Isn't that just swell? :puke:

[Jackpine Radical]

10. The 4-profit prisons are only part of the problem.

There are the demagogic politicians, and prison guard UNIONS!

Particularly in CA, the prison guards have lobbied extensively against drug reform laws that would reduce incarceration rates.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[dogday]

36. PIS---Prison Industries Stock

is one of the fastest growing stocks on the market... PIS says it all....

[AikidoSoul]

62. Slave labor -- using prisonors -- has grown tremendously in the U.S.

Anyone checking the facts will see that they are paid as little as 35 cents an hour.

Heck... that might beat China's low wages, with the added benefit that the label can say "made in America". Right.

"Bastards" is right.

The U.S. has the biggest prison populaton in the world.

I just wish that we could keep these trends in mind when we see the egregious crimes that are becoming "normalized" in our country. Many of these crimes are not reported and discussed in the mainstream press. The result --the public is clueless.

Mostly.

Not DUers of course. :loveya:

[porphyrian]

172. And mandatory minimum sentences keep prisons overpopulated, warranting more to be built.

It's time we end this lie.

[Jonathan50]

7. Addicted to love

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/MISC/addictiv.htm

Relative Addictiveness of Various Substances

In Health, Nov/Dec 1990


"To rank today's commonly used drugs by their addictiveness, we asked experts to consider two questions: How easy is it to get hooked on these substances and how hard is it to stop using them? Although a person's vulnerability to drug also depends on individual traits -- physiology, psychology, and social and economic pressures -- these rankings reflect only the addictive potential inherent in the drug. The numbers below are relative rankings, based on the experts' scores for each substance:


100 Nicotine
99 Ice, Glass (Methamphetamine smoked)
98 Crack
93 Crystal Meth (Methamphetamine injected)
85 Valium (Diazepam)
83 Quaalude (Methaqualone)
82 Seconal (Secobarbital)
81 Alcohol
80 Heroin
78 Crank (Amphetamine taken nasally)
72 Cocaine
68 Caffeine
57 PCP (Phencyclidine)
21 Marijuana
20 Ecstasy (MDMA)
18 Psilocybin Mushrooms
18 LSD
18 Mescaline

Research by John Hastings
Relative rankings are definite, numbers given are (+/-)1%

[ixion]

9. and that needs to be taken in context as well. Marijuana is NOT physically addictive

it is only psychologically addictive. It is also non-lethal and non-toxic, which is not true for most of those items on the list. Marijuana's active ingredient: THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) is actually a low-grade hallucinogen, rather than a barbiturate or stimulant or opiate, etc.


That is to say: You cannot overdose on pot. You cannot become physically addicted to pot.

This makes it one of the least harmful psychotropic substances out there. There is no way in hell that it should be illegal, IMO.

[Jonathan50]

17. And yet this issue hardly seems to be on the liberal radar

I believe Kucinich is the only candidate with an anti WOD plank in his platform.

And Nader of course is for immediate amnesty and release of non violent drug offenders.

[Katherine Brengle]

64. Don't pretend there are no negative health effects lol.

"Non-toxic" is not a fair characterization.

Health risks:
-memory and learning problems
-4x increased chance of heart attack in the hour or so following each use
-lung cancer and other smoke related cancers
-a variety of chronic respiratory problems
-THC impairs the immune system's ability to fight disease


It may not be the worst drug out there, but to pretend it doesn't hurt anyone is myopic at best and outright dangerous at worst.

Cigarettes are toxic, so is weed. Doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal, but let's not ignore the obvious.

[ixion]

80. I didn't say 'no negative effects' I said least harmful, and that is true

nicotine, alcohol and caffeine are all lethal substances. THC is not. That is a fact.

My primary point is that pot smokers should not be behind bars.

[nebenaube]

133. then there's this...

At any given time, 18 Million americans suffer from genetic auto-immune diseases. Sativex (hash oil inhaler) is licensed in Canada and the UK for pain relief in MS. Since it's a mild hallucinogen and not a pain killer one could suspect that the dampening of the immune system is the mechanism of benefit. Maybe so maybe not, the fact is there is no credible american research on this topic. We don't know how this substance factors into healthcare because patient's don't always disclose if or how much they use, MD's can't study it and so there is no peer review of any of the research that is done. So our health sciences have been politicized by this substance to point of being a house of cards...

[CrownPrinceBandar]

176. Very few items on your list have been documented as true......

- "memory and learning problems"

A 2003 meta-analysis published in the Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society that "failed to reveal a substantial, systematic effect of long-term, regular cannabis consumption on the neurocognitive functioning of users who were not acutely intoxicated;"

A 2002 clinical trial published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal that determined, "Marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence;"

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6832

- "lung cancer and other smoke related cancers"

"The balance of evidence from this, the largest case-control study addressing marijuana use and cancer to date, does not favor the idea that marijuana as commonly used in the community is a major causal factor for head, neck or lung cancer in young adults."

http://www.norml.org//index.cfm?Group_ID=6891 (peer-reviewed article at link)

- "a variety of chronic respiratory problems"

"Habitual marijuana smokers do not experience a greater annual rate of decline in lung function than nonsmokers, according to the latest findings by researchers at the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) School of Medicine. The results of the eight-year study appear in Volume 155 of the American Journal of Respiratory & Critical Care Medicine. Dr. Donald P. Tashkin, who headed the study, is one of America's foremost experts on marijuana smoking and lung function."

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3704

- "THC impairs the immune system's ability to fight disease"

"A variety of studies indicate that THC and other cannabinoids may exercise mild, reversible immuno-suppressive effects by inhibiting the activity of immune system cells know as lymphocytes (T- and B-cells) and macrophages. It is dubious whether these effects are of import to human health, since they are based mainly on theoretical laboratory and animal studies. According to a review by Dr. Leo Hollister:1 "The evidence has been contradictory and is more supportive of some degree of immunosuppression only when one considers in vitro studies. These have been seriously flawed by the very high concentrations of drug used to produce immunosuppression. The closer that experimental studies have been to actual clinical situations, the less compelling has been the evidence.""

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3475#16

edit: grammar in subject line

[Jax]

69. Thanks for this

I always call bullshit on the "causes lung cancer and respiratory" idiots who always scream that crap with no link or evidence.

[sam sarrha]

8. the Prison INDUSTRY is a 60 Billion dollar tragedy.. it is a LOT more that 1 billion

[ixion]

11. and that's not even including the money that is spent on law enforcement

and not including the millions of people who have their lives ruined by this bogus 'War on Drugs'. :grr:

[sam sarrha]

13. and because they are holding the legalization for when the economy collapses and they need to modera...

the upheaval

[Jackpine Radical]

14. Money spent on law enforcement, prosecution, criminal defense,

lost wages, depression & suicide due to the life-wrecking consequences of prison...on and on.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. As an ex-Corrections psychologist, I agree heartily.

Most offenders are capable of change (I don't say "rehabilitation" because they were never "habilitated" in the first place), but there is virtually no provision for reducing recidivism.

About 65% of all prison inmates will be back in within 3 years, and 80% of all inmates have been in prison at least once before. (The difference between the 2 numbers is mostly because 2nd & higher sentences tend to be longer that 1st sentences.)

[sam sarrha]

16. there is a tape called 'Doing time doing Vipassina' about a new prison program in India that is

spreading around the east that WORKS..!!

i think you can find it at http://www.dhamma.org or google Insight Meditation or google insight meditation organization

[Jackpine Radical]

22. Lots of things work.

The TM people have been doing meditation in the prisons for years & getting great results. I have no doubt that a Vipassana meditation program would work for those who can be induced to try it. The problem is that the criminal justice bureaucracy is not willing to invest any resources into recidivism reduction. They will not refuse to pay for it, they will fight you if you try to give it away. Any attempt to do anything to alleviate the psychological distres of inmates is viewed as "coddling criminals." I watched a politician in my state make hay out of the fact that his opponent voted to double the hourly rate of pay for offenders working jobs in prison (e.g. laundry, license plate manufacture). To double the hourly rate from $.25 to $.50, that is.

[sam sarrha]

35. there are several prison groups. google 'buddhist prison projects'

the Kadampa group near here in Raleigh NC have a active project, they are ..NOT.. the 'NEW' Kadampa group also known as NKT, please dont confuse them..

i was a juvenile parole officer and worked at the nevada youth training center for 2 years and taught meditation, the results were magical..

[Jackpine Radical]

37. That's wonderful.

I teach meditation to many of my private patients, but didn't have much opportunity to do that with offenders. I was the only psychologst covering a 16-county region & most of my time was filled with doing psych evals & consultations.

[Subdivisions]

60. self delete

[Jonathan50]

15. Costs of Drug War Versus Costs of Drug Use

http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/fed-data/costs/real-costs.htm

[porphyrian]

202. It's disturbing how irrational fear can make normally-sane people...

...and how blatantly the greedy can steal from the public without anyone seeming to notice.

[stellanoir]

18. Has anyone EVER met or EVER heard of one single violent pot head ???

I haven't.

They should maybe be running arts and crafts and musical programs for kids instead especially since our educational systems no longer put value on cultural enrichment. When they're not too spaced out and sloppy and lazy, that is.

Our penal systenm is so terribly broken and various private firms charge from 30 to 70 grand to lock them up per year. Most probably don't even earn that much or they probably could heve beaten the rap in the first place.

It's totally sickening.

[Le Taz Hot]

21. Actually, yes, though it is rare.

I had an acquaintance many years ago who would get violent when he smoked pot. When he wasn't under the influence, he was fine but for some reason he'd get mean & nasty when he smoked the ganj. I know it's anecdotal and that is after knowing HUNDREDS of potsmokers in my 51 years. My husband has A.D.D. and cannot indulge in any opiates either. It makes him paranoid for days. Luckily I do not suffer from said afflictions. :hippie:

And yes, the war on drugs AND the prison industry (I used to teach parolees) is a HUGE business. As is the quest to cure cancer (why would they cure it? it's BIG business). There are other things in which this applies but I'd get my Progressive California Nutcase card taken away if I mentioned them. :evilgrin:

[Gabi Hayes]

94. pot? opiate?

I think I know what you mean, but, seriously.....

[Le Taz Hot]

161. Mistake

It happens occasionally. :evilgrin:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

155. Marijuana is NOT an opiate. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

162. You are correct.

I am wrong. Wrong I tell you, just plain wrong!!!!!!! :evilgrin:

[Bonobo]

19. Fuck! Do you know how much weed I could get for that!?

[Blackhatjack]

20. $1 Billion On Drug Rehab Would Have A Greater Effect On Drug Use....

... and keeping them outside of jail would keep families together, and cut down on government support payments to families.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. This is one issue that will forever keep me from calling myself a liberal.

Decriminalize, certainly, but go after the pushers with extreme vengeance. And someone who is growing half a million dollars worth of pot in his garage is a criminal. Prima Facie case.

[Jonathan50]

25. "The Land Of The Free" is the largest incarcerator of human beings on the planet

And it's almost entirely due to the drug war.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

from the August 18, 2003 edition

US notches world's highest incarceration rate

A report highlights extent to which many citizens have served time in prison.

By Gail Russell Chaddock | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON – More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.
It's the first time the US government has released estimates of the extent of imprisonment, and the report's statistics have broad implications for everything from state fiscal crises to how other nations view the American experience.

If current trends continue, it means that a black male in the United States would have about a 1 in 3 chance of going to prison during his lifetime. For a Hispanic male, it's 1 in 6; for a white male, 1 in 17.

The numbers come after many years of get-tough policies - and years when violent-crime rates have generally fallen. But to some observers, they point to broader failures in US society, particularly in regard to racial minorities and others who are economically disadvantaged.

More:

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I would say that the majority of Americans want drugs out of this country, that's why they went over like sheep with the "War on Drugs" concept. The unfortunate thing about the WOD, was that it was a Republican's pipe dream come true. They allowed anglo-prejudices to devise rules that affected mostly minority communities. That's where we went wrong. It's time to try to do it again, and apply it evenly and fairly.

The more horrible truth is that the agencies which should be eliminating the flow of drugs, are probably selectively applying law enforcement techniques, just to eliminate the competition. If our government was involved in a sale of arms for money, then why wouldn't it also be involved in the sale of drugs for the same reason?

And, why should we make Turkey richer? Time to face the facts about where most of those drugs are coming from. They kill drug users in Turkey, don't they? So why is it still prevalent? Because someone is safely making money out of it, and in all probability, using money from the proceeds to bribe local officials into silence.

[PLF]

29. It's time to drop the whole "war on drugs"(TM) scam

It was never anything other than a way to create a false economy for the prison industry.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. Sorry, I disagree.

Politically, this is a loser idea for liberals and Democrats. But, you don't have to take my word for it. Follow your ideals and let's repeat the 80s all over again and watch the Dem party fall.

[PLF]

43. I see you like the drug war. It is still a scam.

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. You're misrepresenting my position.

This is not one thing or another. This is about allowing Criminal Justice to do its job without prejudice. First, define what you want to criminalize: Drug pushing, not drug usage; then secdond make fair sentencing regardless of race. Anything else you accuse me of would be your attempt at confusing the matter using misguided hysteria.

[kestrel91316]

56. Marijuana isn't a drug. It's an herb. THC is a drug.

Regulating marijuana in order to tax it and limit use to responsible adults makes sense. We allow other plant-derived recreational "drugs" such as beer and wine and coffee and tea. Pot is about as exciting as beer, and should be treated about the same.

[The Backlash Cometh]

68. Sorry, but if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

For the man on the street, it's a drug. No attempt to lawyer the definition is going to make a hill of difference.

[Morereason]

89. Prohibition is INEFFECTIVE. Europe has lower levels of abuse!!!

Even if you do not like to see Marijuana on the streets you are inconsistant in your position to protect the status quo. If anyone is seriously interested in reducing drug abuse then they should be for reform and decriminalization. Our approach actually results in MORE drug abuse.

[The Backlash Cometh]

91. You have your position, and I have mine.

You haven't convinced me of yours, and I haven't convinced you of mine. The question we all should be asking is, is this issue important enough for the Democrats to lose power over? I say no. I don't see your side even giving an inch on this issue, while I bent to accept decriminalization. And you should be happy to walk away with that.

[PLF]

116. the vast majority of posts in this thread are against the drug war

not just mine and a couple of others so quit acting like it's an issue just for a few random libertarians

[Katherine Brengle]

71. lmao - take the THC out of weed and see how fast people stop using it.

:rofl:

[The Backlash Cometh]

109. PLF, MoreREason and Jonathan50

Welcome to DU fellows. Couldn't help noticing your low post count, so we generally assume someone is new to the board in those cases. Just out of curiousity, in the way of an introduction, could you tell us:

(1) Are you just new to the message board and this is one of the many liberal issues that interest you?

or;

(2) Are you Libertarians that share the pot view with liberals?

Just wondering.

[ixion]

81. human beings (and other animals) are hard-wired to want to alter their reality

humans have done so for more than 10,000 years. "Wanting drugs out of the country" is a silly and unrealistic stance. Like prohibition, it only makes matters worse.

If people don't want to use drugs, so be it. That value judgment is at the discretion of the being, IMO.

[The Backlash Cometh]

92. The pharmas are so way out ahead of you.

Plenty of drugs out there to select from. You're just not happy waiting for the dr.'s prescription.

[ixion]

106. never been a fan of the pharmas

but thanks. :-)

[porphyrian]

175. "I would say that the majority of Americans want drugs out of this country..."

Wrong. Most Americans didn't participate at all in the elections of the "tough on crime" politicians who dreamed up this bullshit, and those who did were simply the product of media sensationalism of crime and the resultant fear and irrationality of those who did vote (largely the elderly in Florida, for example, who are prone to this paranoia).

If drugs were legal, there would be no profit in pot at all, as it can grow anywhere with little or no effort.

[Katherine Brengle]

70. Marijuana users don't necessarily belong in jail, BUT --

people who use drugs that have been shown time and time again to produce dangerous and violent behavior should be in jail, right alongside the people who grow/create it and the people who sell it.

I don't want meth addicts and cokeheads and crackheads and shit on the streets. It's my country too, and my safety and the safety of my family.

People who choose to do drugs are not just taking a risk for themselves - they put others at risk too. I have no sympathy.

[Jonathan50]

74. Alcohol makes people violent quite often

"He's a mean drunk"

"Don't listen to him, it's the booze talking"

"Barroom brawl"

"Bar fight"

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/66-71.htm

Alcohol and Violence in the Lives of Gang Members

Geoffrey P. Hunt, Ph.D. and Karen Joe Laidler, Ph.D.

GEOFFREY P. HUNT, PH.D., is a senior scientist at the Institute for Scientific Analysis, Alameda, California.

KAREN JOE LAIDLER, PH.D., is an associate professor of sociology at the University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong, SAR of China.

Collection of data for this article was made possible by funding from National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism grant R01–AA–10819.


Life within a gang includes two endemic features: violence and alcohol. Yet, to date, most researchers studying gang behavior have focused on violence and its relationship to illicit drugs, largely neglecting the importance of alcohol in gang life. Because alcohol is an integral and regular part of socializing within gang life, drinking works as a social lubricant, or social glue, to maintain not only the cohesion and social solidarity of the gang, but also to affirm masculinity and male togetherness. In addition to its role as a cohesive mechanism, particular drinking styles within gangs may operate, as with other social groups, as a mechanism to maintain group boundaries, thereby demarcating one gang from another. Other examples of internal gang violent activities associated with drinking include fighting between members because of rivalries, tensions, or notions of honor or respect. At a more symbolic level, drinking is associated with two important ritual events in gang life: initiation, or “jumping in,”and funerals. By better understanding the link between drinking and violence among youth gangs, steps can be taken to determine the social processes that occur in the development of violent behavior after drinking.

[Katherine Brengle]

75. I didn't say alcohol wasn't a problem.

I don't have very... liberal views on these things, so it is unlikely we will agree...

[Jonathan50]

87. So would you prefer to make alcohol illegal?

If you don't like violence causing drugs, then you must be for prohibiting alcohol.

[The Backlash Cometh]

96. It serves someone's interest and purpose to keep those kids dopey.

I suppose you just want to make it more difficult for them to break the cycle?

[Katherine Brengle]

112. I wouldn't give a crap if alcohol was banned again.

I'm not going to lobby for it, but it wouldn't pain me in the slightest.

:shrug:

[killbotfactory]

128. Well, except for the increase in taxes

to jail a bunch of people who were most likely living perfectly normal lives.

But hey, you have to destroy people's lives to save them, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

139. So, as long as it wouldn't "pain you", you're okay with a govt playing nanny state?

Three words: Prohibition. Doesn't. Work.

Ban alcohol, you get Al Capone and Gangs with Tommy Guns. Speakeasys and poisonous bathtub gin. Same with the "violence" assosciated with the drug trade. It's there because the product is illegal. At the very least, something like marijuana- far less dangerous than alchohol or tobacco- is a massive waste of time and resources (not to mention a waste of the non-violent offenders' lives rotting in prison) trying to "fight".

And I say this as someone who has witnessed the devastation drugs- including and especially nicotine and alcohol- can do. A dad who died of lung cancer. A friend killed by a drunk driver. I've been clean and sober for many years, so like you, I don't have personally have a dog in this hunt, either.

Except that I know prohibition doesn't work, throwing people in prison isn't the way to "help" addicts- the way to help them is to fund treatment on demand, so that when people WANT help and are ready it's there. All prohibition does is create a shit-ledger full of more problems- and when you get right down to it, I find it fundamentally offensive that the government should have the right to tell consenting adults what they can or can't do with their own bodies in the privacy of their own homes. Drive under the influence? Get violent? Neglect your kids? Then you're a criminal- but if you're minding your own business and merely ingesting a chemical into your nervous system that the government has deemed "forbidden", I don't think you should be.

Sure, I could say, "hell, ban alcohol. Don't legalize pot. (For the record, I think we should adopt a harm reduction strategy towards harder drugs, like the netherlands. Treat em like a public health issue) I don't do them anymore, so what to I fucking care if those folks all go to jail." But you know what? I'm not gay, either- but I don't sit here and go "Sure, throw gay people in jail. Blow billions in tax dollars trying to keep consenting gay adults from screwing each other in the privacy of their own homes" ... Know why? Because among other things, whether or not I personally would be affected by laws against consenting adult gay sex, there is a bedrock philosophical principle at stake- the principle that consenting adults need to be free to make their own damn choices. I'm not a woman, I don't have a uterus- but I'm against laws that would outlaw abortion or the birth control pill. Same reason.

And that's why I think it's fundamentally offensive for the government to turn some 50 million otherwise law abiding adults into criminals because they smoke pot. It's ridiculous, it's a massive waste, and it's WELL PAST TIME that this nation put a stop to it.

[PassingFair]

152. Shhhhh! Don't piss her off.

Or there will be NO DANCING, either!

[Warren DeMontague]

157. Wow! I never realized how much Carry Nation

looked like J. Edgar Hoover.




Coincidence? I think not.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Seems to be an argument nobody here is listening to.

Though, you are talking about hard drugs, and I think the argument were having on this subthread is limited to pot.

[nebenaube]

136. nobody wants meth or coke or opiates made legal!

But then you anti drug types can't seem to understand the hydraulic principal. The meth problem arose from the pot crackdown.

[Hippo_Tron]

159. The problem is that people get hooked when they are too young to be making their own decisions

Teenagers get lured in by gangs and get hooked on drugs because their parents either don't tell them not to or because they can't control them. We don't let people make their own legal decisions for themselves until they are 18, we don't let them smoke cigarettes until they are 18, and we don't let people drink alcohol until they are 21.

Society accepts the fact that teenagers don't have the judgment to make all of their own decisions and therefore we shouldn't be sending juvenile drug offenders to prison for 10 years or more because they made a bad decisions.

[porphyrian]

168. There are already laws against dangerous and violent behavior.

Why blame the drugs rather than the person?

[Warren DeMontague]

199. It's all about being pro-choice.

You know, as long as I approve of all the choices you make. :eyes:

[porphyrian]

200. "...with liberty and justice for all."

I guess that means something other than what I think it means to some people.

[Jonathan50]

26. Would you call someone who is a liquor store owner a "pusher"?

If not, why not?

How about someone who owns a distillery?

If not, why not?

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. What part of the word "decriminalize" are you having trouble understanding?

And to my knowledge, NO ONE is allowed to cook up some moonshine in their garage and sell it. Am I missing something?

[PLF]

30. You can brew beer.

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. One more time.

If you decriminalize something, it stands to reason that what you do in your own home is your own business. But the selling is a no-no. Why? Because of health issues, for one. Safety for another.

Business is a nasty, er, business. You get competition in the neighborhood, and suddenly there are gang wars for turf. Who needs this residue of bullshit. Life is complicated enough.

[Jonathan50]

38. Violence and alcohol

So, when was the last time you saw a shootout between liquor store owners?

Hint, the name of the time starts with a P and ends with an N

And there was a famous guy named Al involved.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. And how do you feel about the Pharmas? No really?

What you want is to give the Pharmas another cash cow? Hey, you may be onto something. We can turn liberals completely against the legalization angle if we tell them that the Pharmas will be in control of the sell of the drug.

Pot has its own problems to deal with. Pot will be seeing the same restrictions as nicotine cigarettes and more. It should be limited to the private home because of its second-hand effect. I don't have to worry about feeling the effects of alcohol if I chose not to drink when I'm at a party. But if you're in an enclosed place and someone decides to light up, then everyone in the room is inhaling a substance which is known to effect people differently. It also means that, unlike alcohol, you will have to be extremely selective about the people you socialize with, since those who don't really want to get dopey, would prefer not to be around when you light up.

And I think this second-hand issue will be a bigger problem for you, than cigarrette smoking was because the effects to the second hand smoker of pot, may be more immediate and unpredictable. Especially if someone decides to lace the thing with angel dust or some other happy substance.

So, good luck with that.

[Jonathan50]

41. Straw man

People don't get high just by inhaling second hand smoke.

Just like you don't get addicted to nicotine by inhaling second hand smoke.

As for the pharmas, they already sell the active ingredient in cannabis, it's called Marinol.

However, since the plants are illegal Marinol has to be synthesized and hence is expensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinol

Marinol, a registered trademark of Unimed Pharmaceuticals, Inc. is the commercial name for a product containing dronabinol, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). THC is a naturally occurring component in cannabis.

Marinol is the only FDA-approved cannabinoid and is prescribed as an appetite stimulant, primarily for AIDS and chemotherapy patients. Compare Sativex, a mouth spray for neuropathic pain of multiple sclerosis sufferers approved for use in Canada.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. Sorry, but we disagree vehemently.

That's just something you're going to have to live with. I've seen plenty of people react to pot smoking by getting paranoid. Enough so that I sincerely believe it will become a problem. And I've also spent many nights at discos, dancing 3-4 hours straight in smoke-filled rooms, and the same scenario with pot in the room would have an effect on anyone who was doing that kind of cardio workout.

Notice how I never mentioned the word "addiction." You brought it up first. The effects of pot smoking are immediate. You either get high in a lovely way, or you get paranoid. And it's not up to the people who get paranoid, to keep practicing to bridge your comfort zone.

And you proved my point. In the end, the Pharmas will win. As long as you see this coming, I guess it's to be expected.

[Zhade]

190. You should base your disagreement on informed analysis. You're not.

"the same scenario with pot in the room would have an effect on anyone who was doing that kind of cardio workout."

You don't even seem to know that marijuana smoke is a bronchial dilator - it opens up the lungs. (It's also a natural expectorant, and our brains have THC receptors in them.)

Contrast that with tobacco smoke, which is a bronchial constrictor. It's a night-and-day difference.

You have a lot to learn on this subject.

[AikidoSoul]

73. It's foolish to think second hand smoke won't make you high, of course it does.

And people can also get high in an opium den from the smoke, even if you aren't smoking it yourself.

Anything that you breathe into your body can affect you -- especially drugs that affect the brain.

Small children and infants should never be in the same area when people are smoking MJ because we don't have enough information about how it affects their developing brains.

I have no problem with the idea of legalizing MJ. It the plant provides much better relief for pain symptoms for example than does the drug/synthetic version. Though prescribed for pain relief and wasting for some cancer and AIDS patients, those who are ill say the plant works better for them.

Many folks with Multiple Sclerosis, neuropathies, and fibromyalgia also find relief using the herb.

It must be something about the whole herb that works better.

No way it will be legalized. Between the influence of Chem/Pharm that hates competition, and the "drug war" lords and ladies -- MJ will continue to be demonized.

[Jonathan50]

107. Do you have evidence to back up your claim?

Have you ever watched someone smoke a cigarette for the first time?

They often get very light headed and frequently nauseous if they do not actually vomit.

Nicotine is actually a quite powerful and extremely poisonous drug , but it is a drug to which one quickly becomes acclimated, one of the reasons it is the most addictive drug on the planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine

The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 40–60 mg can be a lethal dosage for adult human beings.Okamoto M., Kita T., Okuda H., Tanaka T., Nakashima T. (1994). "Effects of aging on acute toxicity of nicotine in rats". Pharmacol Toxicol. 75 (1): 1-6. This makes it an extremely deadly poison. It is more toxic than many other alkaloids such as cocaine, which has a lethal dose of 1000 mg.

[AikidoSoul]

132. ELISA tests show that infants absorb drugs from ambient marijuana smoke

The breakdown products eventually show up in their hair and remain there
even after many weeks. There's a link below about this.

ELISA tests are now very sensitive to different types of drugs, and are considered
"forensically valid" to serve as evidence in a court of law, or in employment situations
where drugs are forbidden. ELISA is administered as a prerequisite to employment at
some companies.

It is also sometimes administered to children to see if they're exposed to
marijuana -- for a variety of reasons, most often legal.

Hair is used for the test. Metabolites of drugs will persist in hair for long
periods. The children themselves did not smoke. Some were infants.


Here is the link -- look for the words, "children exposed to marijuana smoke".

http://tinyurl.com/26pe9g

Here's an excerpt from that link:

15) For marijuana, the lab reports out as "positive" the presence of THC alone
without the presence of the metabolite carboxy- THC. Since THC is present in
smoke, how does a THC positive distinguish between ingestion and contamination?
________________________________

Page 4
• The lab does not report out THC positives without the presence of carboxy- THC
metabolite for employment specimens. We do offer a marijuana "exposure" test
where we do report out THC only at the limit of detection. This test is primarily
used to test children exposed to marijuana smoke from adult marijuana users.

************
Comment:

I didn't think you were doubting that children's brains are undeveloped, but if
you don't know that I could provide documentation. Brains do not approach full
development until about 16 years.

Pharmacology protocols show that even adults who do not take medications often have
more pronounced effects when beginning a regimen of drugs. After some period of taking
the drugs it's normal to expect tolerance levels to increase. Often in the case of
medications, the dose has to be increased.

The same is true of illegal drugs. Those who don't regularly smoke marijuana,
or take any kind of drug -- get high or affected much faster when first initiated
than a person who uses regularly. Especially small children.

Also, there are many anecdotal reports of adults getting high from breathing smoke
around others who are smoking marijuana. People in law enforcement also report
getting high when they burn confiscated shipments. Since ELISA testing can detect
cannabis in children of marijuana users, I suspect that at least some of the anecdotes
told by adults may be true but I don't know of any testing of those who burn marijuana
professionally.

Hope that helps.

[AikidoSoul]

196. Good point Jonathan. Additionally they contain many toxic chemicals from pesticides

and other additives such as ammonia, formaldehyde, etc.

Really, it's hard to believe that we do that to ourselves.

[RummyTheDummy]

145. Second hand smoke actually does not typically make you high

Unless you're in a closet or vehicle (commonly known as hot boxing) without any outside ventiliation for a sustained period of time. I love it when people who have little or no experience on subjects make claims based upon popular urban mythology.

[Patiod]

164. It certainly hasn't affected me

My S.O. smokes just about every night after dinner. I know the effects, since I used to smoke dope in high school and college - I know how being high (or even a little "buzzed") feels, and I've never been mentally affected by his second-hand smoke. Physically, yes - I think it smells horrible, and my sinuses are irritated by smoke of any kind, but there's no second-hand high.

Maybe if I were at a closed-in party where everyone else was smoking and you couldn't see through the smoke, but just having someone in the same room smoking - not a chance.

[AikidoSoul]

166. A small child takes in more air lb. for lb. than an adult and has a higher rate of respiration

And there's no doubt that the ELISA drug tests show that marijuana metabolites shows up in children's hair even though it was adults doing the smoking and the test show it gets in their bodies.

Adults can be in the same room with someone else smoking pot and not be affected. Some say they are affected, some say not. I guess it depends on your sensitivity and whether you're exposed routinely to drugs. Those that never do drugs tend to be more sensitive. Small children of course are naturally so.

Another point is that children's detoxification systems are less developed than adults. And abilities to detox differ among adults. Some lack adequate enzymes to properly breakdown and excrete drugs so those who take prescription drugs have varying abilities to detox and excrete. Those with fewer detox enzymes, have more side effects.

I remember reading stories about how adults who visited opium dens in the middle east would become high from the effects of the drug in the smoke. And last Sunday night on Masterpiece Theater there was a program called "Ruby in the Mist" -- a mystery about a young woman trying to get answers about her father's murder. When she visited an opium den she passed out and the old woman who ran the den said that was because she was new to it and more sensitive to its effects.

Whether those stories were based on real facts and experience -- I do not know.

Title edited for clarity

[Patiod]

167. I'm with you about small children and ANY smoke

Sorry, didn't read your whole post.

Kids are sensitive to a whole range of pollutants, and smoke of ANY kind is bad.

So you're probably right about second-hand marijuana smoke having a negative impact on children.

I haven't smoked the stuff in 25 years so I'd be pretty sensitive to it. I know my S.O.'s little bit of 2nd-hand smoke doesn't affect me, but then again, he's only allowed to smoke near a window with a fan, and I'm sitting pretty far away (on purpose). He knows what I'd do to him if he tried to smoke it with me around in an enclosed space like a car (plus I'm not all that psyched about getting our car confiscated).

[AikidoSoul]

195. Not everyone is affected. Depends on your level of sensitivity

Small children are more sensitive to drugs than us big guys.

correction for spelling

[Jonathan50]

42. You never answered my question

When was the last time you saw a shootout between liquor store owners?

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. Can't say I have, but then again, liquor stores have the best security

these days because of the number of robberies. Wouldn't surprise me to find that, along with convenience stores, they're well armed.

[Jonathan50]

59. You didn't anwer the question I asked.

One of the principle causes of violence due to the drug war is clashes between various "pushers" over turf.

The question I asked was: How many shootouts have you seen between liquor store owners due to turf disputes?

Two hints:

The last time that there was major violence over alcohol distribution turf was during a historical period that begins with a P and ends with an N.

One of the major famous figures of this period was named "Al".

[The Backlash Cometh]

63. Now you're being argumentative. I answered your question.

I said that I can't say I have. What part of that are you having trouble understanding? I'll accept your apology now, thank you.

I think the history of liquor in human society is far, far more established than pot. You can find selective societies which had an hallucinogen involved in their rituals, but alcohol goes back to the use of wine, and was even incorporated in religious ceremonies which were quite prevalent to most societies.

I think pot needs to stop piggy-backing on alcohol and start to stand on its own. I think that's the problem. It isn't the same, as much as you would like to believe it is.

And I don't really believe our agencies are really given the 100% okay to go after the real traffickers. I think there are selective mafia groups, and even allies and USA agencies who are being allowed to pick up pocket change through trafficking. Until we see the depth of their involvement, I won't give my support to any legalization of the drug, because if we can't see what they're doing now, we certainly won't be able to see how they're going to posture to get the edge when it comes time to legalize.

[Jonathan50]

76. What is the rationale for alcohol being legal and cannabis being illegal?

Ooops, you're right, you did answer my question. Sorry.


I think pot needs to stop piggy-backing on alcohol and start to stand on its own. I think that's the problem. It isn't the same, as much as you would like to believe it is.

I agree, cannabis and alcohol are quite different. Cannibis is almost infinitely safer than alcohol, causes far less bodily harm than alcohol and is far less likely to induce violent behavior than alcohol.

Other than that, they are fairly similar.

[The Backlash Cometh]

78. I disagree.

You can't determine that Cannibis is safer for all individuals. You're not the FDA. You'll have to admit that Cannibis creates paranoia in some people, and where the body can regurgitate the excesses of alcohol, people who react negatively to inhaling pot, have to ride it out. You just don't know how bad it can be for some people, because they usually stop taking the drug once they realize what it does to them. And thankfully, because it is illegal, they don't have to be forced into social settings where they have to go along to get along.

[Jonathan50]

83. When people regurgitate alcohol they often drown in their own vomit.

Not to mention that regurgitating alcohol doesn't immediately make you sober.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:3DMvRRKgGIsJ:www.marshfieldlaboratories.org/nida/alcurine.pdf+alcohol+testing+time&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

When a person uses alcohol, the alcohol level in the bloodstream rises during the ab-sorptive phase (the period in which alcohol is being absorbed from the intestine), pla-teaus during the distribution phase (during which ethanol is equilibrating with tis-sues), and falls during the elimination phase (the time in which the kidneys are ex-creting ethanol in the urine). • When in the elimination phase, the average person eliminates about .015 - .02 g/100 mL per hour (equiva-lent to about 1 beer per hour).

[The Backlash Cometh]

95. Yet, regurgitation is the body's natural way of eliminating the excess.

How interesting, however, that you do point out that alcohol isn't a safe drug. It really isn't. Though red wine is said to have good effects on the heart.

[Jonathan50]

86. Cannabis is indeed safer than alcohol and actually even safer than cigarettes.

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

Marijuana has often been touted as one of the safest recreational substances available. This is perhaps true; many reputable scientific studies support the conclusion that cocaine, heroine, alcohol, and even cigarettes are more dangerous to the user’s health than marijuana. In addition, the celebrated pharmacological properties of cannabis have led thirty-six states to permit its use as a therapeutic drug for, among others, those suffering from AIDS; various painful, incurable and debilitating illnesses; the harmful side effects of cancer chemotherapy, and glaucoma. Additional research is being conducted concerning the use of marijuana on the treatment of anxiety and mental disorders.

[The Backlash Cometh]

97. I don't care about your studies. I have seen enough for myself to

know that if it were as prevalent as alcohol, you'll be seeing a lot more issues.

[Jonathan50]

103. Don't confuse me with the facts, eh?

So when you are presented with documented evidence of scientific studies you fall back on unsupported anecdotal evidence.

I could present you with forty years worth of anecdotal evidence for my position, but I do not need to since the scientific evidence supports me.

Do you believe in global warming?

If so, why?

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. I don't care about YOUR facts.

You are obviously going to present facts to support your position, but if they were definitive proof, we wouldn't be having this argument, would we?

Global warming is a non sequitir. Has nothing to do with this.

[Jonathan50]

108. Show me some facts to support your position then.

If your position is so valid, I'm sure you will have no problem coming up with scientific data to support that position.

I've shown you mine, you show me yours.

[The Backlash Cometh]

113. You're kidding me? You think the WoD was entirely hatched out of someone's

butt? What you're doing is trying to dispute conventional wisdom. So, I don't doubt that you can bring "facts" to the table that can override their "facts."

As far as I'm concerned, you trump each other out. I'm here as a social pragmatist, trying to find the happy medium that will keep your "facts" balanced with their "facts."

I got to tell you, it doesn't matter how many "facts" I bring to the table, or how many "facts" you bring to the table, you are talking an issue which goes directly to people's experiences, observations and personal opinions. And as a general rule, conventional America is not comfortable with allowing more drugs on the street. Liberals will lose on this one and lose big, because each time someone's child overdoses, or takes the wrong direction THEY WILL BLAME THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR ITS LOOSE MORALS.

So, I ask again. Is this issue important enough to jeopardize the Democratic Party's newly found powerbase?

And, oh by the way, are you a Libertarian? Because if you are, you really have no right to weigh in on this, as far as setting the Democratic agenda goes. Just my opinion.

[Jonathan50]

117. I'm a libertarian leftist on the Political Compass

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

My position on the Political Compass is exactly the same as the Dalai Lama.


http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/LIBRARY/studies/vlr/vlr3.htm

The first exhaustive study of the effects of cannabis and the other hemp drugs was done by the British in India. Their Indian Hemp Drugs Commission studied cannabis use among the native population in India in 1893 and 1894,86 and submitted its conclusions in a 500-page report. The Commission received evidence from 1,193 witnesses, including 335 doctors, and studied the relevant drug-related judicial proceedings and the intake records of every mental hospital in British India. As a result they concluded:

In regard to the moral effects of the drugs, the Commission are of opinion that their moderate use produces no moral injury whatever. There is no adequate ground for believing that it injuriously affects the character of the consumer. Excessive consumption, on the other hand, both indicates and intensifies moral weakness or depravity. Manifest excess leads directly to loss of self-respect, and thus to moral degradation. In respect to his relations with society, however, even the excessive consumer of hemp drugs is ordinarily inoffensive. His excesses may indeed bring him to degraded poverty which may lead him to dishonest practices; and occasionally, but apparently very rarely indeed, excessive indulgence in hemp drugs may lead to violent crime. But for all practical purposes it may be laid down that there is little or no connection between the use of hemp drugs and crime.87

[The Backlash Cometh]

123. Hey, I'm getting good.

I think we should leave it that we don't agree on this issue. You can pull facts anywhere on this issue to support your position, whatever it is, because passions run high on both sides.

You know the Pharmas are going to patent everything beneficial out of marijuana and make a killing in the process. So, I leave you with this question: Is this really worth pushing as a current issue and jeopardize the Democrat's new powerbase?

[Jonathan50]

120. The war on cannabis was indeed pulled out of someone's ass.

http://www.pipes.org/Articles/history.html

Let me pause to tell you this. When Professor Bonnie and I set out to try, to track the legal history of marijuana in this country, we were shocked that nobody had ever done that work before. And, secondly, the few people who had even conjectured about it went back to the 1937 Federal Act and said "Well, there's the beginning of it." No. If you go back to 1937, that fails to take account of the fact that, in the period from 1915 to 1937, some 27 states passed criminal laws against the use of marijuana. What Professor Bonnie and I did was, unique to our work, to go back to the legislative records in those states and back to the newspapers in the state capitols at the time these laws were passed to try to find out what motivated these 27 states to enact criminal laws against the use of marijuana. What we found was that the 27 states divided into three groups by explanation.

The first group of states to have marijuana laws in that part of the century were Rocky Mountain and southwestern states. By that, I mean Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Montana. You didn't have to go anywhere but to the legislative records to find out what had motivated those marijuana laws. The only thing you need to know to understand the early marijuana laws in the southwest and Rocky Mountain areas of this country is to know, that in the period just after 1914, into all of those areas was a substantial migration of Mexicans. They had come across the border in search of better economic conditions, they worked heavily as rural laborers, beet field workers, cotton pickers, things of that sort. And with them, they had brought marijuana.

Basically, none of the white people in these states knew anything about marijuana, and I make a distinction between white people and Mexicans to reflect a distinction that any legislator in one of these states at the time would have made. And all you had to do to find out what motivated the marijuana laws in the Rocky mountain and southwestern states was to go to the legislative records themselves. Probably the best single statement was the statement of a proponent of Texas first marijuana law. He said on the floor of the Texas Senate, and I quote, "All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff (referring to marijuana) is what makes them crazy." Or, as the proponent of Montana's first marijuana law said, (and imagine this on the floor of the state legislature) and I quote, "Give one of these Mexican beet field workers a couple of puffs on a marijuana cigarette and he thinks he is in the bullring at Barcelona."

Well, there is was, you didn't have to look another foot as you went from state to state right on the floor of the state legislature. And so what was the genesis for the early state marijuana laws in the Rocky Mountain and southwestern areas of this country? It wasn't hostility to the drug, it was hostility to the newly arrived Mexican community that used it.


Much more:

[The Backlash Cometh]

124. I'm sorry, but we'll agree to disagree.

You have an uphill battle ahead of you, just in the public perspective arena, and I see much more important issues. Hope you have something else that interests you that is worth fighting for.

[Jonathan50]

129. US notches world's highest incarceration rate

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than North Korea?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Communist China?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Yemen?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Iran?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Russia?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Myanmar?

It doesn't bother you at all that your country imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than Libya?

[nebenaube]

138. You really don't know who the new base is do you? n/t

[AikidoSoul]

181. You're probably right about liberals being blamed for the "loose morals" often associated with drugs

What a shame our culture is so brainwashed about some of these natural, mind altering drugs. Some seem to have a key for opening doors to other worlds beyond our own narrow ways of thinking and perceiving.

If pure, clean marijuana and mushrooms could be legally included in guided religious ceremonies (like have been conducted for eons in other cultures)-- it might provide opportunity to expand our view of the universe and ourselves. It's intriguing that in the past four decades here, many who have experimented also report religious experiences. For some there is an acute awakening of the connection of self to everything in the universe.

The most intriguing reports to me are about use of mushrooms. Some pot users say that certain grades of "Hawaiian bud" do the same thing.

It's interesting that in some cultures only Shamans were permitted to imbibe in mystical plant substances because they are considered to already be at a higher level of consciousness and could be trusted to handle the experiences, to learn from them, and then teach others what they had learned.

I kinda doubt synthetic drugs could do as well as the natural ones. I would think they would also more easily cause damage to the brain and CNS.

Probably anyone taking too much or any mind altering mushroom, natural or not, especially if they're already pre-disposed to being a little unstable -- might also have a bad trip. If I had the opportunity and it was legal -- I'd go for the natural ones but with guidance so I wouldn't take too much, or do it in the wrong environment. I'd love to do it safely just to see what doors and paths open up.

Human brains are amazing, but I think we don't work hard enough to develop them to exercise them to their full potential. Human thinking seems to get stuck easily in narrow channels. Can't help wondering whether our lack of access to legal, natural mind expanding herbs and mushrooms contributes (at least partly) to the entrenched development of a kind of brain constipation that produces intolerance, narrowness of seeing, and narcissism.

Occasionally I've wished to visit another culture where legal experimentation with mushrooms and herbs under the guidance of spiritual teachers -- is considered a normal part of becoming human.

[RummyTheDummy]

147. Sure it creates paranoia in some

And usually those people try it, don't like it and choose not to partake. It's the same as those who have food allergies. You don't eat stuff that makes you sick.

[Bjorn Against]

44. Pharma can't patent pot...

You can not patent a plant that grows in the wild, that is why it is illegal. Big corporations who give massive campaign contributions see it as a threat to their profits.

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. Read up a few posts higher.

Apparently they're busy inventing Trojan Horses. Pills that can give you the effects you desire, without the detrimental effects. And those pills will be patented.

[Jonathan50]

84. Cannabis can be eaten

Perhaps you've never heard of pot brownies?

All it takes is to cook it with a little butter and then you can put it in cookies, cake, brownies, etc.

It's just more expensive to do so and the effects are much longer lasting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

98. Yes, apparently the pharmas have figured that out.

[skids]

130. And meanwhile people suffer and die...

...not just from the prohibition on cannabis, but also from the total ignorance of our medical establishment on the therpeutic effects of thousands of chemicals readily available to the public. Stuff like cumen, capsaicin, and for goodness sake Vitamin C itself is not being used effectively in many areas because nobody will fit the bill.

Man if I were rich and had billions to spare (after hiring the bodyguards to protect me from big pharma) I know exactly what I'd do as far as philanthropy goes...

(And in case you are interested, most of the "detrimental effects" -- not so bad IMHO compared to those many prescription pills already have -- from medical use of marijuana don't require a patented engineered chemical to remove, they simply require separation of the active ingredients so that if you are, say, an epileptic, you take the cannabidiol not the delta nine THC, and if you need the THC without the braindeadedness, you don't get the cannabidiol. There are lots of components to the natural form, and choosing the right mix makes a big difference. Doesn't really require chemistry, though, just botany and an accumulation of patient experiences.)

[Bjorn Against]

184. I know about Marinol, but it is not the same thing

Marinol has been not been shown to have the same effects as marijuana, for medical use it is not nearly as effective as the plant itself and it is way more expensive. The pills do not give the desired effect, and if anything the effects are more detrimental because they have not been as thoroughly studied as whole marijuana which has been in use for thousands of years.

[Zhade]

189. 1) Big Pharma will never be the sole source; weed is too easy to grow.

2) I do agree that people should not be unwillingly exposed to any substance they do not choose to indulge in willingly.

3) The fact that you keep referring to smokers as 'dopey', which utterly ignores the two major popular strains of marijuana (sativa, which is a mind-high that leads to productive, creative thinking and actions, and indica, the body-high that can make one slow if they smoke too much) leads me to conclude that you are not NEARLY as informed on the issue as you seem to think you are.

[PLF]

45. The drug war in wrong and needs to be stopped.

all of the ailments you describe are already happening regardless of the WOD.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Sorry, we disagree.

[kestrel91316]

58. I assume you are just as vehemently opposed to the sale of

beer, wine, and hard liquor, RIGHT? They cause a hell of a lot more death and destruction than pot ever did or will. Hell, I bet CAFFEINE has caused people more trouble.............I know caffeine sensitivity put me in the ER with ventricular bigeminy - my f---ing HEART COULD HAVE FIBRILLATED AND KILLED ME WITH THAT. The worst pot has ever done is make me go to bed early, after eating too many potato chips.

[The Backlash Cometh]

99. I think it's clear that I don't care for the comparison.

Why can't pot stand on its own? Why can't you argue it without whining about alcohol?

Caffeine isn't good for you, as you've noticed, but it also is a drug that helps productivity in workers. So, there you are. In a capitalist society, rock breaks scissors.

[Jonathan50]

114. Cannabis versus Alcohol

Why can't pot stand on its own? Why can't you argue it without whining about alcohol?

Do you drink alcoholic beverages?

As I have demonstrated, cannabis is far safer than alcohol.

And yet, alcohol is legal to make, purchase and consume and yet cannabis is not.

Caffeine isn't good for you, as you've noticed, but it also is a drug that helps productivity in workers. So, there you are. In a capitalist society, rock breaks scissors.

Actually once one becomes acclimated to caffeine, one must consume caffeine in order to feel "normal". Continuous consumption of caffeine does not increase productivity much if at all.

I'm not a worker, I own my own business. Why may I not do with my own body as I please?

[Jonathan50]

115. Cannabis versus Alcohol part deux

Why? Because of health issues, for one. Safety for another.

I have already demonstrated that cannabis is both safer and healthier than alcohol.

Heroin is actually safer than alcohol as I have also demonstrated on this thread.

[kestrel91316]

57. We ARE allowed to brew wine and beer. Pot should be

treated the same.

What we CAN'T do, and shouldn't be able to do, is brew up a BUNCH of beer or wine and sell it around town. That should require a license. Same for commercial production of pot.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Retorts already covered in this thread:

(1) Pot needs to stop piggy-backing off of alcohol and needs to stand on its own merits.

(2) If it gets decriminalized, what you do in your own home, is your own business. Just don't sell it without a license.

[kestrel91316]

54. I say treat it like hard liquor. You have to be specially licensed

to make and sell it, and it's heavily taxed and regulated.

As far as private citizens growing it at home in small quantities for personal use at home, I say HANDS OFF!

[The Backlash Cometh]

100. Already stated my point on this issue in another subthread.

[Katherine Brengle]

65. Agreed. nt

[immoderate]

122. Why would you care what I do in my garage...

especially if it is not criminal? (In which case it won't be a half million dollars worth.)

Pushers? Have you seen the drug ads on TV? Who is forcing anyone to smoke pot? Why would you call yourself a liberal -- you're not thinking like one.

--IMM

[porphyrian]

174. Who "pushes" pot? If this phenomenon exists, I've never seen it outside of anti-drug commercials.

People seek pot or don't, not the other way around. And someone who can grow "half a million dollars worth of pot" in his garage must have a pretty huge fucking garage, unless you're using the imaginary totals prosecutors like to use. If pot weren't illegal, that grower wouldn't be a criminal, so I'm not sure what your point there is.

[Zhade]

191. I know! I get the distinct impression that our misinformed friend...

...would prefer patients like me go painfully blind from glaucoma than receive the benefits from smoking a plant that's been safely used for tens of thousands of years - LONGER even than alcohol, which had to be manufactured in the first place.

Crazy how huge a blind spot otherwise good people can have about this beneficial plant.

[porphyrian]

193. People have been lied to about it for most, if not all, of our lives.

And, like with anything, there are enough negative personal stories out there for some to scapegoat if someone's inclined to do so.

I'd love to meet just one person "pushing" pot, though. I always have to ask. ;)

[Dora]

180. "pushers"

:eyes:

When you have a half-dozen early-adolescent friends hanging out together, and one of them pulls out the jay or bud that s/he pinched from his/her sister/brother/parent/neighbor's stash, will you arrest that kid? Is that kid a pusher? Or is that kid experimenting? Would you press charges on the crew? And what of the source who didn't know that their stash had been pinched by a kid. Is the unsuspecting adult a pusher?

"pushers" Jeebus! You make it sound like all drug users are lurking outside the schoolyards targeting babies with their wares. Wake up, will you?

"pushers"

:eyes:

[AwakeAtLast]

31. I've never touched pot in my 37 years, and I still think it should be legal

As soon as you decriminalize it, the value will drop, people will stop killing each other over it, and the public will be safer.

I would even go so far as to say decriminalize all drugs.

[Jonathan50]

50. Decriminalization will do nothing to the black market

Since the drugs will still be illegal to sell, the black market will continue to flourish with no difference at all.

Only legalization and retail sales, similar to the way alcohol is sold today, will end the black market and the concomitant violence associated with all black markets.

[AwakeAtLast]

77. I guess that was what I thought decriminalization would do.

Like when prohibition ended. Sorry I wasn't clear, but I am game to try it!

[Jonathan50]

85. During prohibition it was not illegal to possess or consume alcohol.

It was just illegal to make or sell it.

[SmokingJacket]

34. I'm more worried about the human cost than the money.

Heck, we've misplaced a billion dollars in Iraq over and over.

But think of all the lives torn up, careers permanently derailed, children in foster homes or with relatives...

Once you're a "criminal," you're in a permanent underclass.

[Katherine Brengle]

72. Breaking the law is a CHOICE.

I'm not fully decided on decriminalizing marijuana, but I am absolutely opposed to decriminalizing drugs across the board.

Drugs use and sale hurts people - it hurts families and it hurts communities.

It needs to stop. Maybe the WOD is run like crap - most government initiatives in this country sadly are - but something other than permitting drug use needs to be done about it.

As far as being a criminal once forcing you into a permanent underclass, I reiterate - breaking the law is a choice. It is a choice we are all free to make or not make.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. Smoking pot is a victimless "crime."

We should legalize and tax marijuana, at the very least.

[Morereason]

90. Yes, But why then support policies that INCREASE abuse?

Folks have to understand that repressive policies like locking everyone up are great repub soundbites, but lousy policy and inneffective in many cases. We have to get away from popular philosophies and into real solutions. Europe has lower drug abuse. Why is that? Prohibition and criminalizing marijuana CREATES criminals and problems. Learn a little more about the psychology of those effects. Don't buy into extremist ideologies.

[Katherine Brengle]

101. So, if too many people are breaking a law, simply repeal the law...

great "solution."

:eyes:

[killbotfactory]

111. Yes, if the law causes more harm than what it's supposed to be stopping

you should think about repealing it.

[Pastiche423]

118. What about the people that use marijuana for medicinal reasons?

When a person is in pain 24/7 and nothing else relieves their pain (except chemicals that cause a host of other more severe problems), do you believe it should be against the law? Or should they remain in pain?

[Dora]

183. Yes, if the law isn't an accurate reflection of our values as a nation.

Many people in this country are aware that pot does less individual/societal damage than alcohol, but alcohol remains the legal drug.

And as to the "damage" that is done to a family or individual because of drug use, how much of that damage is a direct result of the ingestion of drugs, and how much of that damage is caused by coping with the legal consequences?

I think the distinction is an important one to consider.

Let's not forget that we are, on paper at least, still a democracy, and that our laws should reflect the will of the people. IF THE LAWS AREN'T WORKING, THEN YES, THE LAWS SHOULD BE CHANGED.

:eyes:

[Zhade]

192. It was against the law to marry a different race at one point.

Yet many people broke that law. Should "anti-miscegenation" laws have stayed on the books, per your argument?

Do you support people like myself going painfully blind due to your misinformed puritanism?

[SmokingJacket]

131. But punishments should fit crimes.

Smoking pot is less damaging to society than drinking or even smoking tobacco. It's absurd that it's punished so strenuously and expensively.

Full disclosure: I've never taken an illegal drug in my life, not once. But the damage society is suffering from the WAR on drugs is much worse than the damage suffered from the use of pot, say.

I'm undecided about the decriminalization of ALL drugs, but I have no doubt about pot.

[Jonathan50]

39. Health effects

http://web4health.info/en/answers/add-alcohol-longrun.htm

Those who often drink too much run a high risk of suffering physical damage. The level of damage depends on the amount. The organs that are used for the absorption and digestion of alcohol, like the stomach, the liver and the pancreas, are vulnerable. The brain also suffers from continuous abuse.

The liver is an important organ for the breakdown of alcohol. Excessive alcohol use can cause fatty degeneration of the liver, causing so-called fatty liver. Liver research has shown that probably more than half of the alcohol addicts have fatty liver. This can cause nausea, vomiting, lack of appetite, loss of weight and fever. After stopping alcohol use, the liver can recover from fatty liver.

The most known incurable liver disorder caused by alcohol abuse is liver cirrhosis. More.

Other frequent diseases of the organs are gastritis (infection of the mucous membrane of the stomach) and inflammation of the pancreas. Gastritis can cause stomach bleeding; inflammation of the pancreas causes lower absorption of nutrients, causing, among others, loss of weight.

Several investigations have found a relation between excessive alcohol abuse and cancer of the mouth, throat and esophagus, especially with drinkers who also smoke. Heavy drinkers also run a higher risk of contracting cancer of the liver and the large intestine. Women who drink a lot have a higher risk of breast cancer.

Brain damage, like Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome ( more ) can occur.


http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=heroin

Long-term effects of Heroin use:

In its pure form, heroin is relatively non-toxic to the body, causing little damage to body tissue and other organs. However, there are some long-term effects, including dependence, constipation, menstrual irregularity and infertility in women, loss of sex drive in men, intense sadness and cognitive impairment.

Many of the other long-term problems may be the result of other factors, such as the person's poor general care of the self, drug impurities and contaminants and blood-borne viruses.

[KharmaTrain]

47. How Many Oreo Cookies Would That Equal??

:crazy:

[tabasco]

53. Yes, but think of all the jobs it creates!

Keeping these dangerous pot addicts off the street also provides lots of jobs for counselors, guards, drug testers, probation officers, etc.

Please think of the families of the police state!

[catmandu57]

55. The way this misadministration wastes, misplaces, and steals money

Soon their won't be any funds to enforce this shit, any of it we'll have defacto legalization of everything. Around here it's mostly selective enforcement when it comes to reefer, I'd still like to see it stopped though, I have the perfect place to grow just enough for my personal consumption and these days it's more medical than to get buzzed.

[Subdivisions]

61. They haven't gotten me yet. Knock on wood.

Here's a toke for legalization...flick.

[Jonathan50]

66. Drug war costs and the murder rate

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/drugs_and_violence/Drugs_and_violence.html





Jeffrey A. Miron has analyzed the relation between violent crime in the U.S., as measured by the murder rate, and the enforcement of drug prohibition (including alcohol prohibition) as measured by expenditures by the federal agencies in charge of enforcing prohibition (Figure 2), over the entire period for which murder rates are available on a national basis. His statistical results "suggest the homicide rate is currently 25%-75% higher than it would be in the absence of drug prohibition."

Notice how as the amount spent by the government on drug interdiction (including alcohol) rises the murder rate also rises and as the amount spent by the government of drug interdiction falls, the murder rate falls.

[philosophie_en_rose]

82. I don't support massive pot growers or dealers.

But incarcerating users is disproportionate to the problem. Pot is not all harmless and fluffy, but the crimes that occur with its use (such as DUI) seem to be already covered under other laws.

[Jonathan50]

88. Cannabis is safer than cigarettes

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

many reputable scientific studies support the conclusion that cocaine, heroine, alcohol, and even cigarettes are more dangerous to the user’s health than marijuana.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Kinda like the people who don't want to jail women who get abortions

but think the providers should go to jail?

If people are going to smoke it, they're going to get it from somewhere. The most sensible tack, in my mind, is to legalize it, regulate it (and as such, do a better job of keeping it out of the hands of minors) tax the shit out of it, and stop spending $40 Billion a year trying to "fight" it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

141. I don't disagree with legalization, as you describe it.

But I do disagree with mass drug dealing as it currently stands. Jay and Silent Bob-types are not much of an issue. However, mass trafficking is dangerous and violent.

Unless you can grow pot in a body cavity, this has nothing to do with abortion. It's about mafia activity and consumer protection.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. All I would say is, Al Capone was a product of prohibition.

Legalization, regulation and the like would take the organized crime element out of the equation IMHO.

Although I beg to differ that there's no relation between being pro-choice on reproductive rights and pro-choice on other issues; I think the notion that the government has the "right" to tell consenting adults what they can or can't do with their own bodies ties into the abortion debate, just as it ties into the drug war, just as it ties into the fight to let the sick manage their own pain without fear of the DEA--- and the terminally ill to choose a pain-free exit on their own terms.

The notion that "we", our physical persons, belong to the state is a direct outgrowth of the Western Religious concept that people's bodies belong to "God", and if you scratch the surface, it is one of the philosophical pillars underpinning the so-called "pro life" movement.

All those issues are about people being able to make their own decisions about their own bodies, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jonathan50]

163. However, mass trafficking is dangerous and violent.

When was the last time you saw a shootout between liquor store owners?

Do not liquor distributors engage in "mass trafficking"?

It is the *illegality* of recreational drugs, particularly cannabis, which drives the violence.

[Swamp Rat]

102. "profit ... good... ... Earth plant bad..."

[porphyrian]

203. "Ze only green ve vill tolerate is ze color uf our skin!"

http://www.cruelty.com.nyud.net:8090/money/images/L05710597R_detail.jpg

"Except for zis kind, uf gourse."

[killbotfactory]

104. Remember when the government wasting a billion dollars on bullshit

seemed like a lot of money?

[Jonathan50]

110. LOL, They managed to lose 363 tons of hundred dollar bills in Iraq. n/t

[Rex]

119. These kinda things don't matter to people who 'lose' 12 billion

or can't account for 2 trillion at the pentagon. Maybe they should be drug tested first?

[killbotfactory]

126. Yeah, they're acting like a typical drug addict

Tons of money missing with nothing but petty excuses, and they still beg for more.

They need to seek out some treatment.

[femrap]

121. Didn't the people of this nation learn

anything from Prohibition? Legalize it. Tax it. Reduce deficits.

Alcohol is a much worse drug than pot.

[degreesofgray]

125. hooray for pot

end the senseless drug war!

[killbotfactory]

127. Pot is fun

[Prophet 451]

134. Surprised it's that high

I knew it was a lot but I didn't think it was quite that much. Of course, the obvious solutions are either to legalise pot (at least, for personal use) or to push for treatment programs instead of jail (which is both far cheaper and far more effective) but so long as politicians are scared of being called "soft on drugs", I don't see it changing.

In my ideal world, pot is legal to own, smoke and grow. Legal to buy (subject to age restrictions and DUI) but selling would require a license (for the exact same reasons as selling booze).

[colbertforpresident]

135. what a waste of money

just think, this is another billion that Bush could use for one of his wars.

[Warren DeMontague]

137. Legalize it. Regulate it. Tax it. Stop telling consenting adults who aren't committing other crimes

what they can and can't do with their own bodies. It's absurd.

[necklace]

149. Amen!!! Shouldn't we be focused on the real crimes....

committed in this world??? Isn't the fact that we are in an illegal war a bigger crime that this?

[RummyTheDummy]

142. The real number is probably much, much higher

NT

[spanone]

143. Privatization of prisons turned it into a major profit motive to keep it illegal.

There's money in those prison beds.

[havocmom]

144. But a basically passive prison population = REAL CHEAP LABOR for corporations

We the People pay for all living expenses, corporations get to pay pennies per hour for labor and the marketing ploy of slapping on a MADE IN THE USA label on goods.

China is not the only place with prison labor. There are bidding wars between states here for contracts to 'employ' their prisoners. Lots of young, basically peaceful people in jails are good for business. Too bad about the damage to society, but hey, fascism is on the move...

[porphyrian]

201. Exactly. And mandatory minimums for drug "offenders" keeps prisons overpopulated...

...so they can justify building more, which they then again fill with slave labor, and on and on.

[sweetheart]

146. it costs 1000 times that at the very least

the opportunity cost is staggering for what shitty society we get for a result.

[walldude]

148. Wow.. we have some real anti-pot experts here tonight...

You don't like pot? Fine. Don't fucking smoke it. You can't handle pot? Fine don't fucking smoke it. But please, at least be informed if you are going to try to weasel your way into my freedoms. I especially like the comments about "Pushers". You know I have been doing pot and other hallucinogens for near thirty years now and I have yet to meet one of these "Pushers". As a matter of fact I found it so hard to find decent drugs that I had to start growing them myself then I had kids and had to stop that. Any other pot smokers here know any place where you can go to have pot "pushed" on you? I sure could use a good source...

[Duppers]

153. As the OP, I don't fit into that category

I agree with you.

"It makes no sense to continue to treat nearly half of all Americans as criminals."



http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3443

[midnight]

151. I recently read somewhere here on DU that taxes needed to be

trimmed. Maybe we can start with legalizing pot, and setting these folks free.

[truedelphi]

154. Two other super important facts

If you take marijuana out of the equation, there really should not be a war on drugs, ebcause there just are not that many hard drug offenders.

But they will keep marijuana in the equation BECAUSE THE PHARMACEUTICALS need to refine the properties of the cannibonoids that will bring about relief to patients who suffer from diseases like multiple sclerosis.

Can't have the MS suffereer growing their own pot. Nope, far better, says BIG PHARMA, to let us refine the canniboids and then market it to you so that when you are choosing between meds and food, should you chose meds, you will be unable to afford food.

[Patiod]

165. They tried CRAs, and they're not going to fly here

Take it from someone who has been in the back rooms with them.

I know what I'm talking about here -- I actually was employed by Big Pharma to talk to docs on this very issue - medical grade canabinoid receptor antagonists - and only the oncologists were interested.

Other docs, especially rheumatologists and neurologists, were too afraid of the potential neurological side effects (whether that fear was rational or not is not the issue - but they were afraid). At least one major pharmaco had the drug in hand, and decided that there were just too many things going against it (side effects, public opinion, FDA pressure, and lack of demand from physicians) to bother pursuing it.

Once again, the tinfoil hats come out with regards to Big Pharma. Yes, they have undue and inappropriate influence due to lobbying (Canadian drug blockade, Medicare Part D, VA can't negotiate for better rates), and they should be smacked down for that crap.

But they're not suppressing the legalization of marijuana. They've given up on commercializing cannabinoid receptor antagonists.

:tinfoilhat:

[truedelphi]

177. Thank you for reporting your experiences

What year was this happening? <if you are liberty to say>

Here is a link to what OTHER COUNTRIES (ikn this case, Spain) are doing in terms of real medicine
http://www.newsmakingnews.com/contents8,14,00.htm#The%20War%20On%20Some%20Drugs,%20Medical%20Marijuana,%20And%20Our%20Local%20DA

Between our country not allowing for stem cell research in a free and open manner and its stupid! pointless! losing! war on drugs, we as a nation our missing out on what is needed - real health care

[truedelphi]

178. If marijuana was legalized, those in power

Would have important sources of money unavailable to them

Here in California, the monies collected when you are arrested for pot (and your cars, house(s) boats, bank accoutns etc are seized under the assumption that you only obtained them through your drug deals) all that money ends up in a fund called "Discretionary funding"

It is then doled out to certain individuals. In Marin County, I have heard that it is Paul Chignell of San Anselmo who gets the money.

Then he funds various people in power, including the five people who are on The Marin County Board of SUpervisors. Each of them gets $ 135,000.

Then they dole that money out.

So lets say that Supervisor D. ends up giving $ 40,000 to a local drama and theatre group. Where is the harm in that?> you may say (if your mind can get over the fact that people's property might be confiscated even before they have a trial - The Ronald Reagans were able to get the boat of a close friend back after it was apprehended because a deck hand was caught smuggling drugs - but if you aren't friends with the President and some hitchhiker you pick up on a cold rainy day has a backpack of drugs - you may well be out your car and out your life - that would be considered transporting a smuggler and can carry higher jail times than the smuggler will face)

Well the problem with Supervisor D giving out the 40K is now what happens? During the election cycle - doesn't the Chair Person of the Theatre and Drama group get the message that it might be wise to kick in 5K to 15K BACK to the Supervisor?

I have heard rumors that the entire Adult Protective Services in Marin has links to non-profits wherein this money is channelled, funnelled and laundered for the sake of one of the Supervisors.

[Patiod]

179. That's what I despise about unlawful search and seizure

So my S.O. leaves a little roach in my car (owned by me - who doesn't touch the stuff) and they can steal my car.

Not constitutional, but not bloody likely to ever be overturned, not with all the municipalities that want part of that pie you described.

[AikidoSoul]

182. That's one more reason why it will never be legalized. It's too profitable for too many folks.

not just those selling them.

[havocmom]

170. Yep, that is a big reason for not making pot legal

Big Pharma would take such a hit when their drugs became obsolete and their drugs to help with the side effects of other drugs were not needed.

[porphyrian]

198. Your post underlines the real crime being committed. - n/t

[StrictlyRockers]

158. A billion a year wasted on a victimles crime.

A billion dollars that could be going to American schools.

SR

[Doondoo]

160. bump

[Patiod]

169. How much to municipalities rake in on confiscated property?

Does it outweigh the costs of prosecuting and handling prisoners?

I don't smoke dope myself, but my S.O. does, and I worry about being pulled over, having the car searched, and them finding some leavings of some sort or another, and them stealing my car because of it.

[porphyrian]

171. The "drug war" is a profiteering farce and an attack on the poor.

Drugs are as much of a problem with the rich as they are with the poor, yet it is the poor, who cannot afford a battery of high-paid attorneys and membership at a Beverly Hills rehabilitation spa, who go to prison, exacerbating the unacceptable biases of our judicial system. Both drug dealers and members of the Prison Industrial Complex profit from this at OUR expense, and the time to end it is now. Laws already exist to punish violent behavior, DUI, and any of the other offenses "drug war" proponents bandy about as justification for this bullshit.

[misternormal]

173. THC as a drug is the least of this country's drug problems...

A much more heinous drug is Methamphetamine... It is cheap to make and in all cases potentially deadly.

Our Government in its attempts to "protect" us, has built a huge bureaucracy to combat the manufacture and distribution of substances that they deem dangerous.

Unfortunately, some of the most dangerous are legal, taxed to gain revenue, and widely used. (i.e. caffeine, alcohol and nicotine)

In an attempt to justify the existence of such a bureaucracy, the government, primarily the DEA and related agencies, routinely search for, and confiscate marijuana.

They do do because they have failed miserably in curtailing the manufacture and distribution of the truly dangerous and illegal substances, such as meth, cocaine and heroine, etc...

It is time for those agencies to be called to account for their lack of response in curtailing the illegal substances that truly harm.

[Mick Knox]

185. I think its more than that

In my experience.

It's a pathetic waste and shame.

[smalll]

186. Drug prohibition causes other problems as well -

if drugs were legalized (not just marijuana), the criminal gangs who today sell them would lose their source of income and would wither away, along with all the pernicious culture that has grown up around them. Legalize drugs, and you can say goodbye to "gangsta" rap as well. Take the bling out of the "street" lifestyle, and its glamor will die. I teach H.S. in the Bronx; the kids are not as bad as you might think, but still, the vast majority of them are enamored with the gangsta life. Kill that life, and they'd have a far better chance of becoming more educated, more civilized, and would find themselves with more opportunities in life.

[porphyrian]

197. Good point. - n/t

[Zhade]

187. Marijuana being illegal is a crime against humanity.

NT!

[Zhade]

188. KICK

End the war against this beneficial plant!

[porphyrian]

194. ...and I'll raise you one. - n/t