I just wonder how damn many people are gonna vote for Hillary because

[Jackpine Radical]

they actually want a "libberul Democrat" and they have bought the mass media propaganda line that she is one.

I mean, most people in this country just don't know. Shit, the media don't tell them anything useful. The masses want a change from Bush, they're sick of Republicans in general, and they think Hillary is the far-out alternative.

[still_one]

1. If Democrats are really againt our involvement in Iraq, They better get someone other than Hillary

In fact my argument would go so far as to say if Hillary is the Democratic nominee, and guliani is the repug nominee, we lose

Her contradictory positions on the Iraq war, and the Iran resolutions indicate the problem with the Democrats today

[Jackpine Radical]

2. The war, health care, the environment, free trade, posturing against Iran...

she's weak or just plain wrong on most of the issues that matter to me.

[still_one]

6. I think people will not see much of a difference between Hillary and guilliani

and I don't think there is

[Selatius]

19. Her voting record is one of the most liberal in the Senate, but that's compared to the Senate, not..

anything external like, say, the entire political spectrum. Yeah, it boggles the mind that the Senate represents only a narrow sub-set of political views, but it's rather true.

[lamp_shade]

3. They're baaaaa......aaaaaaack

[H2O Man]

4. Yes, but we

have only had a Bush or Clinton in the driver's seat since 1980. Please, give them a chance. Our Floundering Fathers fought for the citizens' right to have two family rule. It's the American Way.

Plus, now that she has borrowed Norah O'Donnell's attention-grabbing laugh, we can agree that reel change is on the way.

[Me.]

9. That Laugh Has Become A 'Tell'

and is beginning to irritate people, just as the Ghoul's calls from his wife, when he's speaking, ar beginning to.

God they really must have a low opinion of the American people

[Poll_Blind]

21. I don't particularly thing that they have a low opinion of American people. I think...

...that they may have an accurate view of the American people, insofar as it concerns the level of scrutinization that the bulk of Americans actually give to candidates, their promises and their ability or presumed desire to follow through on those promises.

  I realize that this may sound like a snarky comment which overtly plays on a poor perception of the American electorate. However, from my standpoint, Americans are easily victimized when it comes to a candidate who has more style than substance.

  I believe that one of the key tools of politics, for good or for ill, is undying pragmatism. These candidates are just exercising that pragmatism. Those who know the magician has a full-grown hare inside his (or her) hat as they start the performance may snigger or even cat-call, but they are the minority of the audience.

  And it's just as likely that the rest of the audience may glare at them for interrupting the play of the spotlight on a sequined cape.

PB

[flyarm]

10. ahhh didn't you know..democracy is a two family rule???????? lol..eom

[Jackpine Radical]

11. God, that is the truth.

12 years of George the Smarter--and, but for the grace of Ross Perot, it would have been 16. Then 8 of NAFTA Bill, and now this. Lord, but I'm getting sick of Republicans.

[leftchick]

28. thank you!

I have been trying to place where I have heard that nerve wracking cackle of her's before.

[The Magistrate]

5. Quite A Few, Sir

To most of the voting public, the Democrats are the Left, the Left is the Democrats, and Sen. Clinton is a veritable Arch-Liberal, different from a Republican as day from night. The arguments we have here over who or what is 'really' leftist, would strike most of the people of the country as nonesense.

[MoonRiver]

7. Hillary is definitely not my first choice,

but she is a vast improvement over *. I don't know how anyone could think otherwise.

[ThomWV]

8. She is dead last as I list the would-be Candidates and I wouldn't use the word "vast"

Because the gulf between her and Bush is many things, but it is not vast.

[Mme. Defarge]

20. Not sure which is worse ... Bush,

or Bush with a brain.

[Tesha]

34. Anyone looking down the road to 2010, *2012*, 2014, and onwards...

> Hillary is definitely not my first choice, but she is a
> vast improvement over *. I don't know how anyone could
> think otherwise.

Anyone looking down the road to 2010, *2012*, 2014, and onwards
might conclude that while Hillary *IS* a vast improvement over
Shrub, she will also cause a calamity in those out-year elections.

She's also quite likely to cause a calamity in 2008.

Tesha

[scarletwoman]

12. There are millions of willing suckers and dupes in the U.S. and ignorance abounds --

which is exactly how the Ruling Class likes it. The corporate media happily obliges the preferences of the Ruling Class by ensuring that the masses are fed a steady diet of useless bullshit.

The con game is going marvelously well, so far -- on DU just as much as the rest of the country.

sw

[undeterred]

13. How long did I oversleep? Did Hillary get the nomination?

[Captain Hilts]

14. Your assumption that her supporters are ignorant is flame bait. nt

[robinlynne]

16. That's not what the op is saying. That's what you are perceiving. It is a valid question.

I know of people who support her who think she will be a liberal because she is a woman.

[never_get_over_it]

17. A lot of people think she is liberal

My sister who I would consider moderate to conservative Dem thinks she is liberal - my brother who is a right wing military repub thinks she is VERY LIBERAL

My sister and brother and their spouses are SHOCKED SHOCKED I TELL YOU that I do not support her and in fact am VERY opposed to her - and I say to all of them I AM A LIBERAL AND I KNOW ONE WHEN I SEE ONE and Hillary is NOT ONE

so yes a lot of people most likely think she is liberal

[Beausoir]

18. Flame bait.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Thanks for your concern. But please notice that nobody's flaming.

All I see is a reasonable discussion going on. I asked what I considered a reasonable question about the possibility of widespread misperceptions about Hillary, and everyone is responding in a reasonable and considered way.

[SlowDownFast]

15. I dunno.

Out the blue yesterday, I asked my folks (lifelong dems) who they'll vote for in the primes. They did NOT watch the debates the other day, though they do watch the news and occasionally the Sunday talking head shows. Average middle-class americans, they are - not incredibly politically aware.

They said Edwards.

If dems who are not impressed with HRC (of which I am one) and wish to gawd that she didn't get the nom want results, I suggest watching the numbers and go with whomever (seems to be Edwards at the moment) else is polling the next strongest - instead of un-stratigically throwing away a vote to Kucinich, Biden, etc (low numbers), in the primaries.

It is conceivable (in my mind) that HRC might not get the nom. I'm hoping anyway.

Here's an interesting article on HRC hostility growing among dems:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3561607

[wiley]

22. I'm voting Clinton because she may just be able to get us out

of the incredible horror of the eight years that we have experienced. And by the way, we are sick of every Republican in particular, not in general. Don't you have a shut off dial for your mass media propaganda machine?

[Richard Steele]

24. Hillary dosn't have any problem with the last 8 years. She considers it "business as usual".

She justified her vote for the "Iran war amendment" this week
by saying she was relying upon info provided by the White House.

Is she really that STUPID, or just that self-servingly DISHONEST?

Hillary has ZERO plans to stop anything that B*sh has started.
She doesn't DISLIKE what he's done, she just thinks she can run it better.

[wiley]

30. Turn your caps down,babe.

and, oh ouch it burns us!

Get a grip.

[Richard Steele]

31. Why is it you Hillary supporters are so COMPLETELY unable to express "support" without impoliteness?

[Perry Logan]

32. People will vote for Hillary because the people who bash her are so snarky and awful.

I'm sure the Hillary-bashers here have won her a lot of converts.

[B Calm]

33. If I was a Hillary supporter, I would wonder why people are

bashing her and stop being ignorant!

[wiley]

35. I agree

When people use their support of any candidate as a vehicle to express their outrage and frustration I find myself feeling crapped on by their candidate. No one in this race is going to get elected saying exactly what they think or believe. Anyone who believes that the next big hope for the solution to everyone's problems will be a person perfectly annointed by brilliant and crafty image makers will be disappointed again and again. I have no illusions that Hillary is perfect. I also have no illusions that Obama or Edwards or Richardson, etc. are in any way less imperfect than anyone running for office. I am certain, however, that Guiliani is one the most disgusting self-important lying creeps to soil America, and that every other Republican and third party candidate who runs for office is just more of the same wrapped up in a self-absorbed, infantalized wrapper that voters can rout for as if at a sports match. The vehemence with which people attack Hillary, as if they were somehow given an it's okay to trash a woman if you call her ruthless and ambitious and out of her place pass has made me evaluate every candidate running. It is those same Hillary bashers - and I don't mean those who disagree with her - that actually give license to the Tim Russerts and Murdoch news outlets of the world to throw fecal matter at the public.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. The Neo-cons have pushed the moderate Republicans over to

the Democratic Party and have changed the rules of the game called politics in the process.

[soulcore]

26. AMEN TO THAT! n/t

[leftchick]

27. I don't think all that many

I don't know any of my democratic friends that can stand her. They are all changing to independent if she wins. I do think that liberal BS is working with repukes though. My hubby got into an argument with a repuke neighbor the other night over this. The neighbor was saying how leftwing hillary is. My husband laughed and said "you do not even realize how much like a republican she is. You all actually have a win win situation if she gets the nomination.!"

[lateo]

29. I'm not voting for Hillary.

Fool me once...