Dachau and Guantamo and the End of America

[nadinbrzezinski]

So I'm in the midst of readying this exceptional book and to my horror and shock I come to a comparison of
both horrific places. The reason why I am horrified is that accoding to some folks there is simply no way to
compare then, and those who do this are ahistorical in the best of cases, or just damn ignorant in the worst of cases.

:sarcasm:

You know exactly who you are. But if you do not want your facile historical interpretations challenged, and your
comfortable reality that of course Guatanmo is not that bad... I would recommend you don't read the book.

On the other hand... if you don't mind the analysis as to the method on the closing of societes, even when it goes to that place, and actually breaks ground (in a book that is), then read the book

This is probably one of the most important books in the last seven years

And if we turn this around... she will deserve quite a bit of the nation's thanks for precisely going there... and
making those comparisons that make so many people have their panties in a wad.

[robinlynne]

1. naomi wolf's book?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Yes she has an extenseive chapter on secret prisons

and how they metastasieze

And it includes Dachau in her list, and how Dachau helped to close German society

She closes with Guantamo and how it has created new normals alraedy and how lawyers who work for detainees are already facing consequences and how those who think GITMO does not affect them... well it does

And of course how our presnit has the right to declare you an enemy combatant, send you to a dark jail and throw away the key.

[robinlynne]

6. I just bought it. Will get back to you when I have read it. There is another book

which looks interesting by naomi klein, the shock doctrine. here is a link to a short film (4 min) explaining her theory.

http://www.naomiklein.org/main

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yeah that's my bday gift, my parents always give me money

I will go get it...

;-)

Happy readying... I'd say...

Or nightmare readying? Damn I wish I could go back to discussing fictional worlds at times

[robinlynne]

10. make sure to take a break sometimes when you need it.

[MadMaddie]

3. So which book are you referring to....?

Many of us have always said that there are similarities to the rise of Nazi Germany and the last 6 years in America.


Any time a country tries to validate..

Secret Prisons
Private Army's
Allow Corporations to practically determine the economic policies of the country.
Strip away Constitutional Rights....
Existing Prisons that are disproportionately filled with poor and uneducated people...while White collar criminals get lesser sentences...

Department of Homeland Security over reacting to a woman who needed medical attention....and instead killed her....

You got a country ripe for Facism!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I know but we also have folks on THIS site

that have been denying any of this signifies anything more than noise and fury (my apologies to the Bard)

The book is Naomi Wolf's "The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot)

And yes it says a lot of what we have been saying... and I am betting it will challenge the usual suspects for whom this could not be an authoritarian society, since if it was... why the hell am I posting on a message board?

:-)

[robinlynne]

7. Some people jsut don't get it. It takes something to trigger a wake-up. different

for different people. all of a sudden it hits you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. To me was readying the USPA... I know I did better than our congress critters

the only phrase going in the back of my mid was... ENABLING ACT

I remember trying to explain that to some folks, and being called nuts

This was right after 9.11

And then we have the GITMO... and my mind reeled back at seeing the first elements of a police state being laid in... with NO resistance

Been very vocal since...

If we loose... I expect a dark hole somewhere.

;-(

[robinlynne]

11. You will NOT be alone, wherever it is. But we may not lose. At least the people are against

the war. That is a start.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Will they follow to the barrricades?

or have they been made effectively afraid and compliant?

that is the question

[robinlynne]

13. I don't know. I found it really interesting that when the army in BUrma was told to fire

on the protesters they wouldn't, and the govt had to bring in hired thugs. We HAVE to get rid of blackwater in this country. really.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. That is why Bush signed the special order to federalize the guards

they believe, and probably correctly, that an Ohio guarsman will not open fire in Ohio, but will open fire in California.

And yes, we need to get rid of Blackwater, they are part of the thug class

[robinlynne]

15. That makes sense. Even the military is debating what to do when you are given orders which you know

are wrong. Somehow I would probably trust the military more than the regular police. They have been getting nastier and nastier. Sometimes there is a quiet protest and they com dressed in riot gear. Even at the end of summer street festivals, the police come in like shock troopers with tear gas grenades and horses...

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Insofar as the cops are concerned

it truly depends where

The only time our local cops did that was when the righties showed up looking for a fight at a demostration

The police literally brought out the cavalry and the wingers left.. in a fit if I remember

[cali]

60. They're taking that away from him.

Senator Leahy introduced the legislation to do so. It passed. I forget which repub co-sponsored it, but it was someone far to the right. I believe the vote was veto proof.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Signing statemetns I am proof possitive you remember them eom

[cali]

72. Yes, I knew you'd bring that up. And that's a valid point

but what the passing of the legislation points to is that Congress is not going along with it. Furthermore, bushco's window of opportunity is closing. He has little over a year left. Man, are you going to disappointed if you don't get your full tilt boogie Police State with all the bells and whistles.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. I hope I don't

that is what you are purposely missing

I am just ringing the bell of warning


If I am right... well I don't expect to see the other side.

I accepted that the moment I spoke out

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

178. The "all of a sudden it hits you" moment for me was

Dec 2000 decision of the Supreme Court effectively appointing BUSH as president.
Another epiphany occurred when I realized that the Democratic Party was NOT going to oppose it.

The repeated failures of the Democratic Party to offer even a token opposition to the succession of outrages only reaffirmes my original epiphany.

[seemslikeadream]

4. There are links to videos that should be watched

google police state

"Operation Urban Warrior"

[cali]

16. I must have really hit a nerve.

I said YOUR list of comparisons between the two was deeply flawed. I NEVER said Guantanamo was not that bad. I don't know what comparisons Wolf makes, so I can't speak to that. Here's your list of comparisons:

both share a prison population whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They both share the illusion of law

They both share visits by the International red cross

They both share the outrage of human rights lawyers regarding the prisoners and prisoner status

They both share quasi legal actions (Military commissions existed there as well)

If you look under the surface, there are common elements

Oh and both have released prisoners who oops, didn't belong there.

Try to look under the surface.

Hell Gantamo shares elements wih Chilean prisons as well.

There are differences of course, but the form that fascism takes in every country where it takes root, is not the same. Why we have so far only attempts at a death chamber at Guantamo...

Also this is not a place where Political prisoners have been taken,

But it is part of the diminishing of the rule of law and extralegal means.


Here's my response:

To deconstruct a few of your "comparisons":

So what that the International Red Cross visited Dachau and visits Guantanamo? Relevance? To what? How?

Saying that they both share the illusion of law is a vague claim that needs to be fleshed out. It's pretty meaningless as simply a broad claim. And Guantanamo and the laws that surround it, are constantly being challenged in federal judiciary and vigorously opposed through public outcry. Think there were a lot of letters to the editor about Dachau? Think again. Think the court system in '39 in Germany allowed for challenges to inmates? No. So the illusion in one case was actually quite different from the illusion in another.

They both share quasi legal actions. True enough, but the results count in my book. Starving prisoners in Gitmo? Not that I know of. Disease descimating the population? No. Summary executions at the whim of a guard? No.

Shared outrage by human rights lawyers and advocates? Yes. See above re illusion of law, for more.

Releasing prisoners? Again, that is relevant just how?

You're the one that needs to look beneath the surface. It's a strikingly poor comparison.

Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2010566&mesg_id=2010566

What irked me, were your incomplete and faulty comparisons, and your absurd claim that Germany had a somewhat viable press as late as '39. A claim you will not find a single historian agreeing with. You also claimed that the state of the media in the U.S. today was the same as that of Germany circa 1936. And you used as an example, Greg Palast not being published in the NYT and WaPo as an example.

Any historian or student of history would take exception to that.

I did not say, anywhere in your thread that we weren't on a dangerous road, and even stated that I think we may be in a state of protofascism.

Seems like you just didn't like being called on your factual errors and logical fallacies.

I look forward to reading Wolf's book. I've got it on order at the library.

And I'm done with this particular little contretemps.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Read the book and then come back to me

ok

And as to your contempt, it is not only you who has a problem with this.

There is a group of people, you amongst them, that have been throwing rocks at the even mere sugestion that this nation is being closed down


And I expect you to continue to argue agaist it, sooner or later.

[cali]

19. Please try reading what I write, not what you want to see.

I've said over and over that I agree we're on a dangerous path in this country. Whether it will result in our society being "closed down" as you envision it, is possible, but something I doubt. You wrote that it wouldn't surprise you if you couldn't sign on to the web tomorrow, that it wouldn't surprise you to see freedom of speech etc, shut down "overnight". It would surprise me.

I have not been throwing rocks at the suggestion that the country might be "shut down". I've been challenging some of your erroneous assertions and presenting primary sources to back it up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I've read it

....

Have a good evening Cali.

[cuke]

21. "Argument from Authority" is a logical fallacy

All you've offered is the claim that this book contains powerful arguments that support your position. You haven't actually made any of those powerful arguments in this thread.

The only thing you offer is "Read the book! Read the book!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I'm sorry but this is coming from previous threads

it is a long standing problem with some folks around here

Incredilby though she made similar arguments that I have done

They are as follows

Both camps have prisoners who are mostly innocent in them

Both camps have used torture (and the definitions of torture have shifted over the last six years just as they did in Nazi Germany)

Both have incarcerated special classes of people.... in their case political prisoners (in the early days) in ours "terrorists"

Both have created new normals of what is acceptable

Both are outside the rule of law

Both are outside standard and accepted human rights

And both metastaized into dark prisons. Ours is not as extenseve YET, but our Gulag is all over the world.

I was just shocked to read similar "ahistorical" and wrong arguments

Oh and both have been visited by the Red Cross, and my mistake to Cali, the report was leaked in '03, which I know for a fact is against ICRC procedure

And both have released prisoners

And yes, both are part and parcel of changing the nature of a society towards a closed society.

Oh and on edit, welcome to DU

[cuke]

28. Thanks for the welcome

To be honest, I don't think the analogy is a very good one either. The Holocaust has too many important characteristics that Gitmo does not. Furthermore, the list you do provide does nothing to distinguish Gitmo from a number of other oppresive regimes.

The USSR's system would be not only a more accurate comparison, but a less inflammatory one. Every single item on your list also applies to the USSR. The Holocaust is considered sui generis for reasons that have nothing to do what's going on at Gitmo. To suggest that the two are the same is to suggest that the differences are not important. Some people thing slave labor, gas ovens, genocide, and the active participation of the citizenry to be important.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. That is the other point she makes

and other specialists have made

(And I made many years ago in a genocide conference)

We are skittish of using Germany, since we believe Germany was that unique. It had unique elements to it... but all police states have unique elements... it is the common elements that should worry us since they are now quite obvious and we are running short of time.

Genocide was not unique to it though. In fact, that conference many years ago, we had to conclude that it was more common than we like to recognize and in the 20th century, you can start with the Armenians and end in the Balkans, and the Holocaust is nicely nestled in between. Yes, it was nasty, and as a daughter of a holocaust survivor I know it was nasty... and my family lost 50 people at Treblinka... but Treblynka was not unique in the history of killing... as a death camp it shared many elements with cambodia

Nor do all police states lead to genocide

But the list I gave you has elements in common with the Gulag, Stroesners Bolivia, Chile and Argentina, as well as Guatemala, more distantly during the dirty war in Mexico... and any other police state that has come to be.

It is inflammatory, and I will be brutally why it is inflammatory

We have been trained from young to believe that the Nazis were unique... the aha moment hit me this morning like a wall of bricks. Why? We knew of the Holocaust as early as 1943 but the world officially didn't learn of it until 1945... never mind many people in Jewish communities in both England and the US sounded the alarm.

We were in some ways complicit.

That is why we needed to convince people that it was unique... and it could not happen again

This only helps police states... I Will argue.

And some of the language present then is now accepted as normal here and now

[cuke]

44. You just ignored the heart of the argument I made

and then admitted being intentionally inflammatory.

I said that by suggesting that they are the same, you suggest that the differences are not important. While the Holocaust was not the only instance of genocide, it is the only instance of genocide that was implemented through a prison system with the support and participation of a large portion of the citzenry. NONE of the other nations you mention come close to this. The one that does come close is the USSR, but that's just not inflammatory enough for you.

And as far as your "aha moment" goes, no police state has ever sprung up overnight, and neither did Dachau. On one hand, you're saying it's just like the Holocaust right now in Gitmo, and now in this post you're saying it's like pre-Dachua Germany.

Furthermore, the Holocaust is not, contrary to your claim, considered unique because "We knew of the Holocaust as early as 1943 but the world officially didn't learn of it until 1945." It's unique because never has a nation expended so much and organized so much just to engage in genocide.

Cambodia was not genocidal in nature. The killings there were ideological and political in nature.

So you have absolutely no valid reason for comparing the Holocaust to Gitmo, All you have is the desire to inflame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. No what I said is that she says it is inflamatory and

I admit I know why...

But I will sugest you also don't read the book

She is also making the comparison, for METHOD... and this is what many folks are missing ON PURPOSE

If the mere comparisom is infamatory, then don't get the book and don't read it, and I mean it.

I suspect once this is over... our skittishenss around Nazi Germany will be gone... and we will be far more honest about its very nature, which is all but abnormal or out of the historical model.

[cuke]

48. The METHOD applies to EVERY prison in EVERY police state

but you insist on using Dachau because it is inflammatory. You agree that the METHOD applies to ALL prisons in police states, so why do you insist on using the Dachau comparison?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. No I used it because it is comparable

PERIOD

IT is a model to the method

IT IS COMPARABLE

GOT IT

It if makes you uncomfortable so be it

[cuke]

57. They are ALL comparable

Even you don't deny this. But you continue to insist on limiting the comparison to Dachau.

Why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. read bellow, her quote on the matter

But to sumarize the quote... refusing to even explore this prevents us from learning from history

And Dachau has lessons to teach...since it was the first formal reeducation camp (later something even uglier)

And my personal feeling... and now that is feelings talking

Not trying to stop this we dishonor every one of those victims

For me its fifty of them

Yes it's personal

[cuke]

85. Her quote undermines your argument

The author says that Dachau was unnecessary.

[AntiFascist]

180. I'm curious...

how do people actually envision the "End of America," or more specifically the end of the United States? There has been some speculation that the strategy is to dissolve the United States and make it part of the North American Union, which would include Mexico and Canada, and which would be able to better compete with the European Union. As the US dollar falls further into the abyss, it would be replaced by currency called the "Amero". Have you seen the Zeitgeist Movie? (www.zeitgeistmovie.com)

There is some indication that Bush is moving in this direction by experimenting with allowing non-unionized Mexican truckers to cross the border and deliver products, and by planning new interstate highways that connect Mexico with Canada. Also note the goals of corporate business of not enforcing border security.

There seems to be documentation supporting the existance of Halliburton detention camps within the US, which some sources claim are to be used in the case of an influx of Mexicans crossing the border. In the case that the US is actually dissolved, what role would these prison camps really play? Another important question: what role would Hillary Clinton play in continuing this global strategy?

[Thothmes]

190. We have been there before and done that

Then we called them relocation camps. The inmates, those unlucky enough to be born of Japanese ancestry

[robinlynne]

23. You guys. we are not all great writers. I suggest as the OP is suggesting that you read the book.

I'm about to. It is an important enough book that lots of thinkers are reading it. That's what he is saying. he read a great book. It makes sense to him. he recommends it. why is that so difficult to understand?

[cuke]

30. I think it said more than "You should read this book"

For example "There is a group of people, you amongst them, that have been throwing rocks at the even mere sugestion that this nation is being closed down"

I see a poster disagreeing with the Dachau/Gitmo comparison. I see no criticism of the idea that this nation is being closed down. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Monk06]

26. Recommending that someone read a book is not an Argumentum Ad Vericundiam.

It's simply a recommendation that you read and
consider the arguments raised by the author.

No fallacy there because a recommendation is
not an argument.

[cuke]

31. Yes, there is an argument

"There is a group of people, you amongst them, that have been throwing rocks at the even mere sugestion that this nation is being closed down"

The OP is arguing that people who disagree with the OP's Dachau/Gitmo comparison are "throwing rocks at even the mere suggestion that this nation is being closed down"

[Monk06]

94. I was referring to nadinbrzezinski's #17. Neither one of you is making an argument.

Your are just attacking each other rather than
discussing the position of the cited author.

All fallacies are based on attempts to discredit
an argument or avoid addressing an argument.

Personal attacks directed at a person and not
their position on an issue are not fallacious.

They're just rude.

[cuke]

105. There's more than post #17

And I would have cited something the author said if the OP had only cited something the author said.

Now, after many posts, the OP has finally posted a quote. Unfortunately for the OP, the author doesnt say that Dachau is just like Gitmo, and the author doesn't focus solely on Dachau the way the OP does.

And I have not made one single personal attack. If you're going to accuse me of something, please point out where I have done that

[Monk06]

179. I looked further back in your debate with nadinbrzezinski

I have to say that on closer examination your
responses don't constitute a personal attack
although you are taking each other to task.

I was prompted to step in by the claim of
an argument from authority being constructed
by nadinbrzezinski where I so no evidence of
it. That's just the pedantic former philosophy
student in me which tends to rear its head ever
so often.

On a larger point I agree with you somewhat
that Gitmo and Dachau are not isomorphic. I also
would agree, with a caveat, that the Gulag 'Archipelago'
is a more apropos comparison to Gitmo.

While the gulag system does not fit the definition
of genocide it was a police state apparatus that led to
hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of deaths before Stalin
died, (reputably at the hands of Beria)

Looking at all three examples I think you can say that
the police state apparatus of secret trials and concentration
camps has been perfected as it evolved from Dachau through the
Gulags ending in Gitmo.

The former two systems relied on physical abuse and deprivation
to shorten the lives of their inmates. At Gitmo isolation and
psychological abuse lead many to commit suicide which conveniently
gives an out for responsibility for those deaths.

There is a further refinement in Gitmo over the Nazi and Soviet
camp system. Both the Soviets and the Nazis kept accurate records
of who they imprisoned.

Gitmo is a black hole and thousands could have died there for
all we know or ever will know.

[cuke]

192. Thank you

and I agree that in many ways,Gitmo represents an evolution in methods

[jpgray]

33. Absolutely correct, and welcome to DU!

There are a lot of logically bankrupt arguments that operate on a daily basis here. Flawed historical analogies are yet another. It's extremely doubtful the ideas in -any- book are so unique to the book itself that it is completely impossible to relate them to a third party.

The bonus is, most people have their heart in the right place as they reach for these rhetorical blunt instruments. And usually if you point out why they shouldn't be used in a polite way, people will respond to you more honestly.

[cuke]

45. Thank you for the welcome

Hopefully, I will be able to maintain my composure

[cali]

52. You're doing an excellent job

far better than I do. And I too bid you welcome. I'm enjoying your posts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Of cousre you are

after all, you don't want to be hit with the reality that there is a method to the madness

[cuke]

59. No one in this thread has even suggested that there isn't a method

or that there aren't any similarities. Please put that straw man to bed.

The only objections to your OP is the way you compare Gitmo to Dachau.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. ok.. first hou accuse me of arguing from authority for

sugesting a book

Now you sugest I am using a stawman, ok

I guess soon I will just get some people into my ignore list

[cuke]

69. If it isn't a straw man, then show me the poster who says there is no such METHOD

and I will apologize.

But if no one is making that argument, then what you have is indeed a straw man.

[The Stranger]

24. Not hit a nerve, only clouded something that should be obvious and alarming.

That a comparison should even get so far is reason enough to be alarmed.

[cali]

25. A clarification of facts is "clouding something"?

How fucking Orwellian of you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Ever since oh the USPA I have been having "flashbacks" to

other historical events that have led to dark and less dark places of the human spirit... and now seeing books making similar arguments that I have made in the past, don't make me happy... but rather leave me cold.

[seemslikeadream]

29. Prisoner 345 It's a number, just a number

http://www.prisoner345.net /





They took Carl von Ossietsky And broke his body - but not his mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tn0fdKsQWg



Prisoner 562

Half a thousand, half a hundred
Six times two, pick up your pen
Child, my child, count it up now
That's the number that I mean

It's a number, just a number
One of hundreds, a sign of shame
Each man's jacket had a number
Men had numbers, none had names

Hitler's system took their freedom
Took them prisoner, one by one
For the courage of their convictions
They were tortured, gassed and burned

They took communist, they took pacifist
They took social democrat
Jew and Christian all were prisoner
In the concentration camp

To the camp of Esterwegen
Listen child and understand
They took Carl von Ossietsky
And broke his body - but not his mind

In Berlin upon the 4th of May
19 hundred and 38
The Gestapo with its treatment
Signed his death certificate

Five-six-two his prison number
Listen, child, I beg you please
Keep in mind, always remember,
He got the Nobel Prize for Peace

In the struggle against injustice
He fought hard and he fought long
Child - remember Ossietsky
Peace won't come by words alone


Words and music: Oswald Andrae
Song Lyric as sung by Dick Gaughan


Song of Choice


Early every year the seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before their leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Shut your mouth then how can you know ?
For seeds you cannot hear may not be there
Seeds you cannot see may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow high they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Every day another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognise a warning?

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do



If fascism is slowly climbing back



It's not here yet so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It'll soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and never dare
And if it happens here they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Seeger

[jpgray]

32. Gauntanamo is horrific. At the same time, it's not comparable to Dachau

You know the two have vast differences in almost every aspect. These comparisons bring you far from your actual point (that secret prisons are dangerous and evil), and instead leave you open for disagreement and ridicule for comparing two vastly different things. When you focus on a few pleasing similarities at the cost of ignoring major, epochal, crucial differences, you do a disservice to yourself, you insult your audience, and you insult the victims at -both- prisons by comparing the two in a way that is blind to the -unique- particulars in each case that made both what they are. How is this in any way productive? It doesn't reveal anything interesting, it is only possible by forced ignorance of specifics, and it doesn't improve your argument. Why do it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. As method it is

and we had this argument already

And I will sugest you read the book too.

Perhaps she will explain it better than I have

[jpgray]

36. No it isn't. Ralph Nader would be languishing in Gauntano if it were

Thalmann, the major Communist party leader, died in Buchenwald. Why? For holding leftist views and criticizing the gov't. If Guantanamo used the same method as Dachau exhibited, Kucinich would be in there, you and I would be in there, many leftist citizens would be in there. It's just an absolutely false comparison, unless you compare the two on such a facile level that all their unique features are ignored. If you say "Dachau's a bad prison, so is Guantanamo, therefore they show the same method at work" you are just being insulting to the people who suffered either prison, and to your audience. Mostly, you are harming yourself and the point you are trying to make.

[cali]

37. I'm not sure that you're right about

your last point. You and I are in the minority here regarding the OPs points of comparison. The majority here are echoing the OP.

[jpgray]

39. Because they support the conclusion "Gauntanamo is awful," they pretend to believe the comparison

Despite Gauntanamo's inexcusable awfulness, making a dishonest argument or a facile comparison is a bad, insulting way to drive that point home. So while the conclusion is good, the argument is very bad. I assume DUers supporting that argument here really are just showing their support for the conclusion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Just because they have not sent people to camps

yet does not mean they are not targeting key individuals

And this is the critical mistake many people are making

Expecting this to follow the exact game plan

They are already targeting key individuals by the way

She liss some of them... and I will list others... and they are well known

Kennedy... he was on the TSA list
Randi Rhodes, she was on the TSA list

Dan Rather
Donahue


And they are well known.

I don't know why people expect jack booted thugs before they acknowledge that Houston we have a problem? I really don't know

But if you don't like the argument, don't read the book. She also compares today's USA with Nazi Germany (and others in the cast of horrors that make police states)

Hell many police states don't have camps, as in formal camps

but what would she know either?

[jpgray]

40. We do have a problem. Is that problem anything like Dachau? No.

You know all the major differences--why continue to engage in a dishonest comparison?

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Then she is also dishonest

becuase she makes the comparison too.

And I fear you are going to start seeing more and more people making the connections and realizing they are comparable.

As I have told you, as far as METHOD is concerned... which has been my argument

The specifics, each of these states has unique markers, but the play book is the same... and Dachau is part of a gulag system, a jail outside the control of the judiciary

Tell me... is Guantamo under the full control of the Judiciary? If you tell me it is... I will give you plently of info to disprove that

[cuke]

47. You are "Arguing from Authority" again

I don't care if you make the same comparison if the comparison is faulty. Just because she agrees with you doesn't make you any more right. This belongs in the "I cant believe you need this explained to you" folder.

And as far as the METHOD goes, that METHOD applies to EVERY police state.

"and Dachau is part of a gulag system"

And so is every prison in every police state. Yet, you insist on clinging to Dachau even though you yourself acknowledge that other prisons are just as comparable and that the only reason to cite Dachau is because it is inflammatory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. It is only inflamatory because we were complicit in the holocaust

and there are plenty of books to prove that

Oh never mind that woudl be arguing from authority right?

I wonder... how historians write history these days, or ever?

Yes now the sarcams is coming out

And please DON'T read the book.

DON'T read any of the books coming out and covering differents aspects of how this country is moving towards something it has never been

After all, if you did... would be using an authority.

For that matter, don't read the papers either

;-)

[cuke]

56. And again, you ignore my argument

You keep claiming that its inflammatory because people feel complicit. I can garauntee that my grandmother, a native of Germany during the time, does not feel complicit but she would be offended.

"After all, if you did... would be using an authority."

No, when I cite an authority, I describe their argument, something you did not do in your OP. And I can assure you that I'm better read on the subject of Nazi Germany than you are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Somehow I doubt it but that's ok

after all you have NO clue what my credentials are...

That also goes for human rights

And you know what... the west was complicit and so were the good germans, and today, so are we... every time we accept the new normal as well normal

[cali]

42. Oddly enough, you're the one insisting on the same game plan

by making these ill fitting comparisons.

As for Senator Kennedy, hell maybe it wasn't really neck surgery, maybe they tried to kill him.

You're really flailing about here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Ok Cali here are the markers, the method

Invoke a terriying internal and external enemy

Create a Gulag

Develop a Thug Class

Set up an Internal Surveillance system

Harrass citizens groups

Engange in arbitrary detention and release

Target Key Individuals

Control the Press

Dissent Equals Treason

Suspend the rule of law

Those are the markers that occur in EVERY authoritarian state

Refute them insofar as what is going on in the US... as you said, put up or shut up

[cali]

49. Why should I? Looks like a

reasonable list. Kind of bare bones but not unreasonable. My problem has been with your comparisons and examples. For instance, do I think that Senator Kennedy was targeted by being on the no fly list? No, I think it was a bureaucratic snafu. But as I said, my problem was with what you used as examples of the criteria listed in your post, not the critieria.

And I'm not going to go through each item tonight, but I promise I will soon

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Some of the examples come from her book

and you happen not to like them

so be it

Yes EVEN DACHAU, here is a passage for you

"The nazis did not need formal extermination camps to control the population. The formal extermination camps that murdered millions, with which most of us are familiar. were not established until the very eve of the war."

page 59

And here is the relevant one... that you should read carefully and try to understand

"I had to include Nazi Germany in my scrutiny of represive governments. Many people are undestandably emotionally overwhelmed when the term "Nazism" or the name "Hitler is introduced into the debate. As someone who lost relatives on both sides of my family in the Holocaust, I know this feeling. I also know there is a kind of intellectual ettiquette, an unwirten rule, that Nazism and Hitler should be treated as stand-alone categories.

But I believe this etiquette is actually keeping us from learning what we have to learn right now. I believe we honor the memory of the victims of Nazism with our willingness to face the lessons that history- even the most nightmarish history- can offer us about how to defend freedom."

page 13

[cali]

58. Then quote the examples from her book

you've got the book, use some of her examples IN QUOTES.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I have, I did

read again

[cali]

67. Do it properly. You haven't. You claim you're a scholar

and historian. I'll take your word for it. In that case, you know how to do it. So do so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. I did, I gave you page numbers and quoted material

if you cannot see it, hell's bells not my problem

[cali]

76. God, that's sleazy. YOU EDITED IT AFTER

having not done so. ugh. dishonest as the night is long.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. No I didn't

that is the original post

Sorry

[cali]

86. NO. It is not. And it says edited right on it.

i recall the original post and it changed significantly. Why you'd even lie about that is beyond me.

[cali]

77. Furthemore,

from the little you posted, it doesn't look like Wolf is using the piss poor examples you did in the original thread you composed, or even in this one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. If you care to beleve that, I'm fine with that

she also told you why people get their panties in a wad...

I concluded why this morning, but that is another story

[cuke]

But even the author says that Dachau was unnecessary

so why make it the centerpiece of your arguement when there are scores of other non-inflammatory, and more similar, examples to use for comparison?

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Why not? Becuase there is this ettiquete, this SILENCE?

Sorry... but many years ago I made a similar argument and back then I was reminded of the ettiquete of not using Germany with OTHER regimes or other Genocides.

It makes you uncomfortable and you feel is inflamatory... that is fine

To me... it is high time we stop that silence and learn the lessons truly.

That is the best service we can do to the victims.

We refuse to learn the lessons, then they did truly die in vain.

[cuke]

100. You are misrepresenting the author

The author does not make the comparison you are making. The author also does not limit the comparison with Gitmo to Dachau, as you have done. The author compares Gitmo to a number of police states in order to show that this METHOD (the one you claim to be concerned with) is widely used.

If you were sincerely concerned about informing people about the METHOD, you would do just as the author you so admire - You'd show how the things you list apply to ALL police states and not limit your comparison to the facile Gitmo=Dachau. I don't see how you can claim that this book supports your argument when this book makes a far more comprehensive review of the ways the METHOD is implented in various police states.

IOW, I have no idea why you focus on Dachau to the exclusion of every other police state in history. Somehow, you seem to think that ignoring every police state but one is the best way to inform people about the methods of a police state.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. You've read the book?

And I will repeat this... what makes many people nervous, and she is on the money on that one, is that we have to look at Nazi germany

And yes, she uses dachau as one of her examples

[cuke]

107. The quote YOU supplied says that Dachau was not the only example she gives

unlike you who focuses solely on Dachau to the exclusion of every other police state.

"And yes, she uses dachau as one of her examples"

And you use Dachau as your ONLY example.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. And the Gulag system, and stroessner

and other places

They are part of a continuum

But yes, she mentions this

And you came to the party at a point when we have had heated exchanges... that is why you truly were not fully aware of all the arguments

I will list them again, they have this in common

Extra legal elements

Prisiners who are tortured

Release of prisoners

Torture

and so on

But you know what, let me go for the truly bad analogy

I am terrible for bringing this up, and pointing this out as to where we are

I am also terrible for not living up to your expectations and claiming that there ARE connections between this regime and the nazis insofar as method is concerned

I am terrible for even going there

And when the curtain finally closees (if we don't manage to turn this around) I hope you are the good American and don't suffer too much... hells bells if you don't make noise you've got a good chance to make it to the other side.

Good luck, and good night

And truly, we are teetering on the edge of a police state

[cali]

121. Teetering on the edge is not the same as being in the

midst of, and that was your claim in thread 1. And you CHOSE to continue a flame war by posting this thread. Now, as you did in the original, you act as if you're some martyr to the truth, and anyone who challenges you is in denial. What utter crap.

[cuke]

122. And yet, you continue to cling to Dachau and focus on it to the exclusion of other examples

Even you admit the other examples are just as good a comparison, yet you insist on using Dachau in spite of the glaring differences which even you admit to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Where do you want me to start, the bible?

To please you I could go there with the First Book of Joshua

Then include the Assyrians, the Babiloninas, the Egyptians, greece, Rome, the Crusades

would that make you happy?

I meam I think we can count half a billion people

[cuke]

131. Why dont you do what the author you cite did?

If your goal is to demonstrate a "continuum of police states", why do you only mention one in your OP?

One example does not show a "continuum". Yet you insist you focus on Dachau and Dachau alone and say it's because you want to show a continuum.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. Becuase you came late to the party

this came out of a series of threads that you didn't see

I have posted examples from different places

Including Guatemala

Chile

Argentina

Yes Germany

Italy

Russia

That is why...

This came out of... my god somebody else is willing to mention this little thing


Not so little by the way

And I have been saying that Dachau, (as well as other places) are part of the METHOD

That has been the argument for the last three or five days... according to some since the vicitim numbers are so disparate they are not comparable

And by that standard they are not

But as far as the steps to close a society are... they are comparable... more than just comparable

Hell I have made this argument on this thread already

[cuke]

147. I read the threads.

You keep telling me not to make assumptions about your credentials. You should know better than to assume what I have and have not read.

And there is no reason for you to not do what the author did. Previous threads do not control your actions. If you want to show that there is a METHOD, you'll have to do more than cite one example.

How in the world is one example supposed to show a pattern?

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. How far back do you want examples?

Will the Bastille of Louis XIV serve?

How about the Madness of King George I and the treatment of American POWs duriing the War of Independence (which by the way are a good example of failure)

Napoleons prisons? They were used to jail oponents to the regime

What about the Turkish prsons going back to the Turkish Empire?

The Habzburg will that work

Or shall we just keep this to the 20th century?

lets exclude Germany shall we?

The Lubianka

Served as a hell hole and first pass to the gulag system

The Internal Prison system of Musollini's Italy

The Japanese internment system

Stroesners's Boblivia

Nicaragua under Somoza

Panama

Mexico between 1968 and 1976 chiefly, but went all the way to the 1980s

What about Argentina

Chile under Pinochet

Cambodia (and the kiling feilds)

Some of that happened in Nam too

Hussein's Iraq

Egypt

Syria

The Cha's Iran

Current Iran has also some elements, actually many

Pakistan

China, especially during the great leap forwards

Is this list sufficient to you?

And notice, does not include the so called exceptional Germany here

never mind it had many if niot all common elements with the above regimes

And notice, they were not all leftie or rightie

[cuke]

154. Use whichever ones you wish to

But using one alone will never show a pattern.

Your OP only mentions one example. Please explain how one example can demonstrate a pattern

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. Krchner's Guatemala

And I have used it in the last few days.. sure you didn't see that thread?

Oh here you go

Invoke and Internal enemy and an external enemy

For Krchner in the 1950s these enemeies were the labor leaders and iintellectuals internally who were working for land reform and other Communist goals

Beign this the cold war, the external enemy was the USSR, them damn ruskies, they were under every damn rock... just ask his intelligence people.

Create a Gulag

The Prisons in the Guatemala of the time were hellholes were torture was carried out on a regular basis and where political prisoners died... regularly, oop, sorry, we went too far

Most were in the country side and that is where many a Maya ended up, upity mayans they wanted their ancestral lands, and they were communists... or at least influenced by them... and these were arguments made by the government, as laughable as they may be to you or me. Oh and officially there was no genocide, but I am sure the maya would disagree

Develop a thug class

The Army, in particular special forces units. They engaged in lovely things ranging from torture, to rape to assasinations...

Set up an Internal Surveillance system

For national secuiry phones were regularly tapped and the intelligence services were busy. Albeit one can argue this was one of their weakest points

Harras citizens groups

Rigobeta Manchu (among others) led civil rights groups working for the Maya, mostly she is a Maya... she even ended in hot water and got a nobel for her efforts.

Arbitrary detention and release

Yep, that happened, especially with labor leaders and civil rights leaders

Target key individuals

Those were members of the press, labor and human rights leaders

Control the press

Yep it was a free press, in paper, but everybody knew better, and with a wink and a nod nobody published things that were critical without clearances from people in the government

Those who did, ended up dead

Disent equals treason, was done, absolutely, espeically those who spoke for the Indians

Suspend the rule of law

The supreme court and other courts became quickly part of the state aparatus, espeically when it came to land ownership cases

Here is a bonus, Mexico, where it didn't go that far

Internal surveilance system,

Yep, phones were tapped... and now they are being tapped due to the war on drugs

Target key individuals

Student leaders, as well as labor leaders, chiefly student leaders

Internal enemy

Was never fully realized

External the ruskis

Rule of law... over a thousand people disapeared in 1968... nobody knows what happened to them... and the army has taken others into custody over the years

And the press

Until seven years ago, I know ironic, the press was controlled, again nominally was free, but it wasn't fully free and people knew not to say things on the air, or print them... or reporters woke up dead... (and that is back)

Oh and finally the courts

They were compromised, especially in the same land ownership cases.

Mexico got close, but didn't fully get there...

[cuke]

163. Good

Now do the same with a few more examples, combine them and write a new OP that does, in fact, show a pattern.

Focusing on Dachau alone will never show a pattern.

You see? When you make a reasonable argument, you get less disagreement

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Nah I don't sorry

not at all

have a good life

[cuke]

167. Of course you don't

Just as you have no explanation as to how using one example (ie Dachau) shows a pattern.

You think dismissing me somehow makes your point clearer. It's OK

I'll be around whenever you make a dumb argument. Even if you put me on ignore, I will be posting in your thread, explaining to others why your argument is foolish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Of course you will

just as Cali and others

Have you read this about they thoguht they were free?

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

I am sure you are familiar with the book

And sadly it applies

And no I don't expect you to see it

[cuke]

172. And again you roll out the straw man

You continue to claim that there's someone who thinks there isnt a method or a pattern. You seem to be the only poster who is able to see these people.

But, like the people you claim get their panties in a bunch whenever Nazis are mentioned, I'm sure you can link to post to prove you're telling the truth

[cuke]

175. I found some posters getting "their panties in a wad" because Nazis were mentioned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2041882#2042055

They are very upset!!

[cuke]

82. According to the author's quote, Dachau wasn't even necessary to the METHOD

yet the OP insists on making this unnecessary fact the centerpiece of it's argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Nah I use it becuase it is part of an echo

And one that makes you uncomfortable

[cuke]

88. What does that mean, an "echo"?

.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Things that sound familiar, she uses examples of those

echoes, but things you read about somewhere else and they are happening all around you

As it were, you are in a closed room hearing a sound reverbarate of something that happened...

There are also echoes, though far more distant, of the America of John Adamns... but they are truly distant

[cuke]

110. So you have to focus on Dachau because it's a part of things that sound familiar?

Is that supposed to make sense?

Are you really ignoring every other police state that has ever existed because Dachau is "a part of things that sound familiar"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Again you don't know what my credentials are

or what I have done in my lifetime

Reality is, bring out Nazi and panties go on a wad, predictable and immediate

And as I said above

When it comes down, be a good Ameircan, that is how you survive these horrors

[cuke]

124. That makes sense to you?

What do your "credentials" have to do with Dachau being part of an "echo" that is a part of things that remind of something?

And you say that mentioning Nazis makes people panties go in a wad, yet I see DUers comparing bush* to the Nazis and no one gets upset about it. How do you explain this discrepancy?

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. look at this thread

and you tell me

As to credentails they don't matter, so why go there? You are right...

Look you don't like the thesis, fine... agree to disagree

I will stand that this camp, was part of a method...

Like any other camp... and yes she speaks of IT in the book...



Oh and DU'ers not getting their panties in a wad, yes, regularly

[cuke]

135. And again, why focus on Dachau to the exclusion of all the others

You keep claiming this was part of a method; a continuum of police states. How does focusing on ONE example demonstrate a continuum?

"Oh and DU'ers not getting their panties in a wad, yes, regularly"

Really? Care to post a link?

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. No I don't care to post a link

if you are here long enough you will notice

:-)

It happens...

[cuke]

155. And again, why focus on Dachau to the exclusion of all the others

You keep claiming this was part of a method; a continuum of police states. How does focusing on ONE example demonstrate a continuum?

And how many times will I have to post this simple question before you answer it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. WOW you are Dachau fixated and accuse me of it

WOW

You know what? You where to go to

I am done

[cuke]

166. It was your OP that mentioned Dachau and used nothing else

to compare to Gitmo. Now you want to pretend that you didn't fixate on Dachau and then try to defend with scores of posts.

Act exasperated all you want. It does nothing to hide the fact that you were the one who focused on Dachau.

[cali]

93. Some of us actually

care about scholarly rigor. It has zilch to do with making me uncomfortable- it doesn't. It has to do with not countenancing sloppy comparisons and poor scholarship.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Then argue with people like Wolf

go on...

Sloppy scholarship my ass

It has been verbotten in American Universities to talk of the Third Reight in the same breath as other totalitarian states

And to argue that in some ways they were similar to them.

This is not revisionism, but placing them where they belong

It has also been verbotten, for the most part, to talk of the Jews who told both the Brits and the Americans of the Death Camps

It has also been verbotten to talk of the fact that precious little was done to stop it

It has also been verbotten to talk fo the ship of the damned.

So don't presume to lecture me

[cali]

101. Baloney. It wasn't verboten when I was

in grad school. In fact all of that has been well known and discussed in academic circles for years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. If you say such

I guess I will have to believe you that your department discussed this

And that this happened in graduate school

Undergrad perhaps?

No

It happened in my grad program since some of us forced it during the events in the Balkans

[cuke]

112. I learned about Dachau in grade school

Not sure where you grew up, but everyone I know was taught about Dachau and the Holocaust. I don't know why you think the Holocaust is a verboten topic. There are documentaries about it on TV regularly. Some of them even describe how the US turned a blind eye to the Holocaust at the time. At least one documentary discussed how the US refused to bomb the train tracks leading to death camps because they didn't want the Nazis to know we had broken their codes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. AS A SPECIAL CASE

it wasn't taught as part of a continuum of police states

[cali]

125. Yes. It absolutely was. And that's what I said

in my first post on the subject. for fuck's sake, just go research it. It's widely taught as part of a contiuum. Where you get this stuff, I haven't a clue.

[cuke]

129. And focusin on Dachau shows a "continuum of police states" how?

If you want to show a continuum, you'll have to cite more than one example. One example does not a pattern make.

I have no idea why you think using ONE EXAMPLE is the way to show a continuum.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. I said that she mentions it

as method since some folks insist that the comparison can never be made,

You were the one fixed on it and have been makign the argument that I made this special

In fact trying NOT to make that camp that special, since as methods go, it wasn't

quite frankly

Again where do you want me to start insofar as killing fields are concerned?

Joshua I?

The Asyrians

The Crusades?

Or will the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish state work?

[cuke]

137. She mentions many examples. Your OP only mentions Dachau

Comparing what you said with what Klein said is as bad a comparison as your Dachau/Gitmo comparison because Klein did not limit her discussion to Dachau, as you did. To suggest that your argument is the same as Kleins is untrue. She did a far more extensive comparison than you did.

"Again where do you want me to start insofar as killing fields are concerned?"

Start wherever you wish. Just don't stop with just one comparison.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. I have yet to read Klein

I am readying Wolf

Perhaps that is where your misunderstanding is coming from

I INTEND to read Klein, and at this point I guess I will keep that book to myself

[cuke]

168. I meant to say Wolfe

Wolfe, in the quote YOU provided (did you even read it?) makes clear that she uses many examples, unlike you who focused on only one.

[cuke]

170. Here is part of the quote from Wolf YOU posted

""I had to include Nazi Germany in my scrutiny of represive governments...."

Do you see that 's' after the word "government"? It signifies the PLURAL form of the word "government". You do know what "plural" means, right?

It obvious, from the quote YOU supplied, that WOLF discusses several repressive governmentSSSSSS

You only discuss one example, and yet you claim the author agrees with your analysis and that the one example demomstrates a pattern

[cuke]

51. The METHOD applies to EVERY prison in EVERY police state

So why do you insist on using the Dachau comparison when less inflammatory comparisons will do just as well?

[EstimatedProphet]

63. This is so bad, it's not even wrong

Let's just take ONE example from this list, shall we?

Target key citizens. You mention Kennedy. Are you actually expecting us to believe that Kennedy's being on the no-fly list is comparable to Nazi targeting of citizens? That's insulting to a hell of a lot of people that suffered greatly under the Nazis.

Things can be very bad, and indeed are very bad, without having to be The Worst That It Could Possibly Be. Claiming that we are equivalent to Nazi Germany is arrogant and insulting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. What you think targeting citizens starts with jack boots?

my god... people really have no clue...

It didn't start with jackboots in Germany either...

Nor did it follow the same exact path that is following right now.

Just because this is the way you have seen it in every movie about WW II, does not mean this happened the same way all across history, or will follow the exact same play book as HERE

[EstimatedProphet]

71. Yeah. Sure, it's the same thing.

And of course, people that have Freeper bumper stickers is the same thing as Kristallnacht.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I hope you are being sarcastic

that is all

[cuke]

74. Jackboots?

That post said nothing about jackboots.

It said there's an important difference between being put on a no-fly list and being beaten to death

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. And all I said is that it does not follow the same exact method

and Nazi Germany did not see severe beatings by state actors really untikl the Reichstag fire

Now here are some things we have seen... echoes as you may put it

Coffins unloaded in the dead of night

Folks forced to drink liquids to prove they were not harmful. In our case, breast milk, the germans emetics urine and a couple other beauts

Prisoners forced to use phiacteries to clean a bathroom

Prisoners who had their koran flushed down the toilet

Prisoners tramsported in cramped conditions, and forced to lay in fesces and urine

Government lists of undesirables and the creations of classes that can be attacked at will

Internal enemeies

External enemies

Prisons that lie outside the law

Weakening of the law

I have no idea why I have to lists these things...

Oh yes, I forgot, I have dared to listen to the echoes of history. Yes even the vebotten ones

[cali]

84. Oh please.

You are really losing it. So what's the equivalent of the Nuremberg Laws passed in 1935?

I suppose I should just be grateful that you've dropped your ridiculous claim that Greg Palast not writing for the NYT=the state of the press in Germany circa 1936.

[seemslikeadream]

99. Khan Job: Bush Spiked Probe of Pakistan’s Dr. Strangelove, BBC reported in 2001

I'll pick it up cause he wrote this 3 1/2 years ago and it's just now a big story but guess what the NYT STILL didn't print it


Published February 9th, 2004


http://www.gregpalast.com/khan-job-bush-spiked-probe-of-pakistan%E2%80%99s-dr-strangelove-bbc-reported-in-2001/




The “Back-Off” Directive and the Islamic Bomb

… A top-level CIA operative who spoke with us on condition of strictest anonymity said that, after Bush took office, “There was a major policy shift” at the National Security Agency. Investigators were ordered to “back off ” from any inquiries into Saudi Arabian financing of terror networks, especially if they touched on Saudi royals and their retainers. That put the Bin Ladens, a family worth a reported $12 billion and a virtual arm of the Saudi royal household, off limits for investigation. Osama was the exception; he remained a wanted man, but agents could not look too closely at how he filled his piggy bank. The key rule of any investigation, “follow the money,” was now violated, and investigations-at least before September 11-began to die.

And there was a lot to investigate-or in the case of the CIA and FBI under Bush-a lot to ignore. Through well-known international arms dealers (I’m sorry, but in this business, sinners are better sources than saints) our team was tipped off to a meeting of Saudi billionaires at the Hotel Royale Monceau in Paris in May 1996 with the financial representative of Osama bin Laden’s network. The Saudis, including a key Saudi prince joined by Muslim and non-Muslim gun traffickers, met to determine who would pay how much to Osama. This was not so much an act of support but of protection-a pay off to keep the mad bomber away from Saudi Arabia.

The crucial question here is that, if I could learn about this meeting, how did the CIA miss it? In fact, since the first edition of this book, other sources have disclosed that the meeting was monitored by French intelligence. Since U.S. intelligence was thus likely informed, the question becomes, Why didn’t our government immediately move against the Saudis?

I probed our CIA contact for specifics of investigations that
were hampered by orders to back off of the Saudis. He told us that the Khan Laboratories investigation had been effectively put on hold.

You may never have heard of Khan Laboratories, but if this planet blows to pieces this year, it will likely be thanks to Khan Labs’ creating nuclear warheads for Pakistan’s military. Because investigators had been tracking the funding for this so-called “Islamic Bomb” back to Saudi Arabia, under Bush security restrictions, the inquiry was stymied. (The restrictions were lifted, the agent told me without a hint of dark humor, on September 11.)

[seemslikeadream]

87. Coffins unloaded in the dead of night

[seemslikeadream]

90. 3827 Coffins unloaded in the dead of night

[cuke]

92. You are not telling the truth

You said more than "it does not follow the same exact method". You specifically mentioned jackboots in response to a post that said nothing about jackboots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. If you choose to say such

that is your truth.

What I said is that regimes don't necessarily start with jackboots

I guess I need to explain it to you CAREFULLY

[cuke]

139. And no one claimed that regimes start with jackboots

so who exactly are you arguing with?

[cherokeeprogressive]

173. This is a disagreement that I have to hold my nose to voice...

Over 35,000 people died at the hands of the germans at dachau.

No comparison. No medical experiments to see just how resilient the human body is.

No comparison.

[cigsandcoffee]

96. at least 200,000 people were killed at Dachau

Guantanamo is a terrible shame on this country, but it's not even close to a Nazi concentration camp. Good Lord.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. METHOD, DARK PRISONS

why is this so hard for people to get?

Oh and we will truly not know how many people have died in our custody until this is over

I doubt in the thousands but I will not be surprised by hundreds

Does that make us better?

I'd say no

[seemslikeadream]

102. and all the drugs smuggled in those rendition planes

I wonder were all that money went?


Iran-Contra

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. On steroids!!!!!!

but you are right about that one

[cigsandcoffee]

109. All prisons and prison camps share similarities.

Not so many of them systematically slaughter 200,000 people. Let's get real here.

[Swamp Rat]

108. Once we are all disarmed it COULD get that bad.

It's a possibility, right? We have some early warning signs already. I've seen what Bushler's minions did to my home and my friends and my family. I took that as a distinct warning sign of what's to come to a city near you.

[cali]

113. I understand that everything you see is filtered through the

lens of your experience, but disarming the U.S. populace would be a daunting task, to say the least, and we've seen no signs that there's intent to do so.

[Swamp Rat]

138. Everything we ALL see is filtered through experience.

My relatives were exterminated my the Nazis in Bobruisk. I saw my friends disarmed in New Orleans, and my fellow citizens left to die. I lost my pets, my belongings, and many of my friends.

So yeah, I have an opinion about this too, based on the filter of my experience.

Of course it is not as bad as Dachau, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, or on the same scale, but for individuals who were treated poorly in New Orleans, Guantanamo, and elsewhere it was, perhaps, just as bad.

Many years ago when I visited Dachau I wondered if it could happen again, in my own country. I certainly hope not.

I am not about to silence anyone who rings the warning bell... even if it seems premature.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. That was a test

and has been accepted by most as a new normal

Agreed

[cali]

127. It was not a test. It was callous indifference and total

incompetence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Get used to this term: NEW NORMAL

[cali]

136. In all your schooling, did you never learn how to make

an argument?

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Not with you Cali

after all I'm just the ignorant fool that doesn't know a thing... never have and never will, and all my credentials, according to you, are false and non-existent... hell my life is a figment of my imagination

That is not the victim speaking, but that is how your way of posting reflects

Google the term

Or read a book... not a post by me by the way... never read a post by me... after all you will only get inacuracies and falsehoods. Message received


After all I will bow to you as the ultimate expert in WW II

The ultimate expert in International Law

The Ultimate expert in Police States (and how they rise)

And the ultimate expert on everything else

I can't aproach your greatness

Never willl, nor should I try

Since I am not a good source

GOOGLE it

Perhaps you can find it in the great GOOGLE.

Since we cannot "talk," I shan't try anymore

[mmonk]

189. Yes, in the end. The road getting there must not start.

You are looking for exactness and not the method, echos, or road traveled.

[cali]

111. You'll be so sad when

Gitmo closes. And it will. Do you suppose any of Hitler's top lieutenants came to him and argued to close Dachau, the way Gates is making that case? What are you going to do when your signs of doom start to fade?

[seemslikeadream]

114. Why do you think congress is not impeaching bush and Cheney?

[cigsandcoffee]

119. If I were to answer, I'd say it's because it wouldn't help them politically.

Or, at least, they're convinced it won't.

If they suspected it would help efforts in '08, they'd be all over it. Smart people.

[seemslikeadream]

123. I believe they are not impeaching them because

in order for that to work them would have to impeach the Supreme Court and if they did that do you know who would appoint their replacements?

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. There is more to not imopeaching than not having the votes

I agree...

Though I still insist they do

[seemslikeadream]

142. Oh yes I agree, I insist also have ya seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. thanks watching

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. That was chilling

[cherokeeprogressive]

176. Because they're NOT? N/T

[seemslikeadream]

191. such a well thought out answer

I would expect nothing less

The Supreme Court would be involved in the impeachment process and would never go against bush so they would have to be impeached first and that ain't gonna happen cause if they were bush would be allow to appoint their replacements

[cuke]

117. Did the highest court in Germany say death camp prisoners

had a right to due process?

In the US, SCOTUS has ruled that Gitmo detainees have a right to due process.

[cali]

134. Hang it up. Like death,

stupid never takes a holiday.

[cuke]

141. Well, I don't see a response from nadine

so you may be wrong about that vacation thing

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. No, but the highest courts did rule in Bolivia

before they closed down

And for a few moments in Guatemala

Which tells you that no country evolves the same way

I bow your wisdom though

You are so wise

why try to point to METHOD

Since you know all

[cuke]

149. Before WHAT closed down?

If you want to show a pattern and a method, then why do you not use these other examples to explain and make clear this pattern?

You just had a wonderful opportunity to show how this pattern is replicated in other police states like Bolivia and Guatemala. But instead, you do nothing to show this pattern, and continue to exist that focusing on Dachau will somehow convince people that there is a pattern

And please note that NO ONE has said that there is no pattern, or no method. You are arguing a point that no one disagrees with. That is the very definition of a straw man.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. the society

I know people are dense, but former democratic societies closed down

[cuke]

156. So the Bolivian courts ruled on this before democratic society closed down

How does what the Bolivian courts did under a democratic society demonstrate the METHODS of a police state?

[seemslikeadream]

144. Frank Rich: The ‘Good Germans’ Among Us

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2042366

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Thansk

when the history of this is finally written, we will NOT be given a pass

[cuke]

152. That article doesn't mention Dachau, and doesn't even mention the Nazi Death Camps

and somehow, you think Frank Rich's article supports your OP?

Both Rich and Klein were able to make your argument without having to rely on Dachau or the Nazi death camps the way you did. Maybe you should leave the job to professionals like Klein and Rich.

[seemslikeadream]

158. I posted that article

Don't you knoe what "Good Germans" means?

[cuke]

174. It does not mention Dachau or the Nazi death camps

How does that article support the OP's argument?

[seemslikeadream]

187. YOU JUST MADE MY POINT

The "Good Germans" didn't mentioned the death camps

[cherokeeprogressive]

177. Why "Good German?" Why not "helpless unarmed citizen with children"?

I'll never get that notion.

For the sake of argument, let's say your neighbors were awakened in the middle of the night by the SS. Dragged out of their homes and either summarily shot, or forced into transport vehicles bound for who knew where. There's you, watching through the curtains from next door. No weapons. No mechanism for resistance in that instance. You opt for the best outcome in that situation: That your children survive another day. When you use the term "good german", is that what you're referring to?

As I see it, it was either that, or be dragged from YOUR home, and treated the same way. Me? I'd lay on the backs of my children hoping that the bullets didn't penetrate my body and harm theirs.

My ancestors were presented with an analogous choice: Stand up and be shot, and who knows what happens to your children, or acquiesce, and hopefully survive forced removal from your ancestral land.

Frankly, I'm glad they chose the latter.

Personally, I think an armed populace as per the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States prevents such a thing from happening. And thank goodness for that. I think it's the Second Amendment that will get us through the next year and a half.

[bonito]

146. Very interesting thread here

To say the least. recommended

[emilyg]

157. I survived Hitler. Very interesting. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. My father did as well

that is why I fight these bastards

I don't want my nephews to fear

[mmonk]

181. As she says, there is an etiquette so to speak in America

not to go there (ever bringing Nazi Germany into discussion when talking about this country). But I'm glad she has. The problem is that people take it as saying the comparisons on how different countries get to a bad place should not occur because we aren't exactly like them. That is the mistake of those that turn a blind eye.

[cali]

182. Not true.

We do it all the time. And sometimes it's apt; other times, not so much. And it's not a about turning a blind eye. It's about how things are similar, how they differ, and what lessons one can take from those similarities AND differences. So many of the OP's claims are simply fallacious and don't stand up to the least bit of scrutiny.

[mmonk]

183. First of all, she did say that.

Second, when excerps from the book are extracted and used, people have an almost visceral reaction and immediately dimiss what the poster is trying to say in using the example. I'll leave you with the following from a floor speech from Senator Dodd concerning his trying to stop the passage of the MCA and in his book "Letters from Nuremberg" Chapter 1, Nuremberg, Undermined,
"As Justice Jackson said at Nuremberg, we must never forget the record on which we judge these defendents today is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow."

[mmonk]

184. Also.

I don't mind correction of facts.

[CJCRANE]

185. "Verschärfte Vernehmung"

"The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation".
...
The Nazi defense of the techniques is almost verbatim that of the Bush administration..."

Excerpted from:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html

[mmonk]

186. That's something else I need to add to my

coincidental incidentals.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2038231&mesg_id=2038231

[seemslikeadream]

188. It bares repeating

After reading the full investigative piece in the NYT today on how this administration decided on breaking America's historic ban on torture and then pursued a long, corrupting policy of ensuring that the interpretation of the law was politicized to keep torture alive, it is hard to disagree with Marty Lederman:


Between this and Jane Mayer's explosive article in August about the CIA black sites, I am increasingly confident that when the history of the Bush Administration is written, this systematic violation of statutory and treaty-based law concerning fundamental war crimes and other horrific offenses will be seen as the blackest mark in our nation's recent history -- not only because of what was done, but because the programs were routinely sanctioned, on an ongoing basis, by numerous esteemed professionals -- lawyers, doctors, psychologists and government officers -- without whose approval such a systematized torture regime could not be sustained.


The way in which conservative lawyers, and conservative intellectuals, and conservative journalists aided and abetted these war crimes; the way in which the president of the United States revealed so much contempt for the law that he put a candidate to run the Office of Legal Counsel on probation before he appointed him in order to keep the torture regime in place, the way in which Republicans and Democrats in the Congress pathetically refused to stand up to these violations of American honor and decency in any serious way (and, I'm sorry, Senator McCain, but in the end, you caved, as you always do lately): these will go down in history as some of the most shameful decisions these people ever made. Perhaps a sudden, panicked decision by the president to use torture after 9/11 is understandable if unforgivable. But the relentless, sustained attempt to make torture permanent part of the war-powers of the president, even to the point of abusing the law beyond recognition, removes any benefit of the doubt from these people. And they did it all in secret - and lied about it when Abu Ghraib emerged. They upended two centuries of American humane detention and interrogation practices without even letting us know. And the decision to allow one man - the decider - to pre-empt and knowingly distort the rule of law in order to detain and torture anyone he wants - is a function not of conservatism, but of fascism.

James Comey - one of the principled conservatives, like Jack Goldsmith, who actually supported the rule of law and American decency - put it succinctly enough:


"We are likely to hear the words: 'If we don’t do this, people will die,'" Mr. Comey said. But he argued that government lawyers must uphold the principles of their great institutions.

"It takes far more than a sharp legal mind to say ‘no’ when it matters most," he said. "It takes moral character. It takes an understanding that in the long run, intelligence under law is the only sustainable intelligence in this country."


A couple of things need to be stressed, because I've learned the hard way that intelligent people simply refuse to absorb what is staring them in the face, when what is staring them in the face is so staggering:


Never in history had the United States authorized such tactics.



There is no doubt - no doubt at all - that these tactics are torture and subject to prosecution as war crimes. We know this because the law is very clear when you don't have war criminals like AEI's John Yoo rewriting it to give one man unchecked power. We know this because the very same techniques - hypothermia, long-time standing, beating - and even the very same term "enhanced interrogation techniques" - "verschaerfte Vernehmung" in the original German - were once prosecuted by American forces as war crimes. The perpetrators were the Gestapo. The penalty was death. You can verify the history here.

We have war criminals in the White House. What are we going to do about it?

(Photo: Paul J. Richards/AFP/Getty.)

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/10/war-criminal.html