Chavez Pushes "Polite" Socialism

[BayCityProgressive]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/18/AR2007011801329.html

But Chavez didn't choose a socialist model because of its track record. If he means what he says -- and he seems serious enough, to the point of proposing to rename his country the "Socialist Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela"-- he chose it because he is convinced that the alternative capitalist model has made it "impossible to overcome the problems of poverty, misery and inequality."

Twentieth-century socialism didn't fare so well in that regard and it is still unclear that Chavez is doing much better. Chavez's anti-poverty programs, known as the Bolivarian Missions, have helped bring health, education, housing and basic food products to Venezuela's poor like never before. Venezuelan critics insist, however, that such programs are inherently flawed -- assembling hefty, corrupt and inefficient bureaucracies that will prove detrimental to the country in the long run.

Regardless of its ultimate measure and whether historians say this experiment was a success or failure for the poor and Venezuela at large, Chavez's 21st-century socialism is different in one chief respect: It's been rather polite.

----
If you can sift through all the spin you can see Venezuela is paying companies fairly and giving land to farmer's co-operatives. I disagree strongly with the Post's assertion that people in former socialist countries are now better off under capitalism. The USSR may have had MANY problems but their basic needs were met. Just look up how many Europeans are used as sex slaves now, homeless, huge wealth disparity, corruption hasnt gone away, no healthcare, skyrocketing inflation..in Russia a majority say they want communism back. Belarus has one of the strongest economies in Eastern Europe because it has mantained most socialist mechanisms and Moldova actually put the communists back in power through fair elections and their economy has been moving up. But hey, who's looking at the facts!?:sarcasm:

[oldtimecanuk]

1. Lets remember one other thing with Chavez, he has asked to ...

rule by degree for only 18 months, and I believe that after that time he will go back to a full Democratic system, provided the US stays out of their affairs. I don't know what it is about Hugo that makes me trust him, but I do and I guess we will see how things go. Also remember, he offered and gave Eastern US states cheap heating oil this past year.... My gut feeling is Hugo is the real deal... Been wrong before, but so far I love what I see.....

ww

[John Gauger]

3. Power corrupts.

I believe Hugo is a good man, but he is taking quite a liking to power. The last time they did this "rule-by-decree" thing his policies worked out well and he peacefully handed power back to the legislature at the end of the specified period, but power is like a drug. I see it as only a matter of time before he gives way to human frailties.

[walldude]

7. So only Frodo should be in office?

Using your logic no one is strong enough to not misuse power.

[John Gauger]

39. There isn't anybody strong enough to resist power.

The reason we have seperation of powers is because the Enlightenment believed that you couldn't trust *anyone* with unlimited power. The greater a person's power is, the more danger exists that it will be abused. My concern with Chavez is that he has power, but that he has too much power. We are all human and we all suffer from the same weaknesses. I would not trust anyone with the kind of power Chavez now has, not even myself. I believe that there is a real danger in that setup.

In the interest of accuracy, Frodo was corrupted in end. When he finally got to Mount Doom, he refused to destroy the Ring. It was only destroyed by accident. The point of this is to show that even the most uncorruptable are still in danger of abusing power after being exposed to it long enough. I think Tolkien held such a view.

[oldtimecanuk]

16. I see your point, and I appreciate it... My only response is...

a gut feeling about the man..... I can't offer anything other than that.... There is just something about this guy that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling... (No I am not gay) He has a persona that truly electrifies me and I really believe that he is a person for his people.... Like I said, I have been wrong before... (I hope not this time )

ww

[John Gauger]

38. I can respect that.

I am a stoic, so I believe that a person should rule his or her emotions rather than be a prisoner to them. However, I do understand that sometimes a feeling is all you have to go on. When logic fails, all you can do is follow your gut.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. it still is a democratic system

he has been given the power before and so have others. It can also be taken away.

[pampango]

22. I agree with everything you say except the part about

"provided the US stays out of their affairs." While I think that may just be a warning to the US to butt out, I am old enough to have seem too many leaders who would love to return to democracy except for the communists or the capitalists or the black man or the white man or the boogey man behind the tree that we have to be afraid of. If Chavez is democratically granted the power to rule by decree in certain fields for 18 months, then that is it.

I wouldn't want Bush to announce that he was going to allow a return to a full Democratic system in 2008, provided that Al Queda stays out of our affairs. Obviously, the suspicion would be that he would see enough Al Queda threats between now and 2008 to suit his purposes.

[John Gauger]

2. Russia is better off now?

It's easy to make such assertions when nobody bothers to acquaint himself with the facts. Living in the USSR fucking sucked, but today Russia may as well be one of the pits of hell. If I ever had the misfortune of choosing between the two, I'd have to go with the USSR. Things were crappy, but at least it was not abject suffering, as it is now.

[JVS]

4. I'd rather wait in line at the store than not have the money to go there in the first place

[BayCityProgressive]

6. I Didn't say they were well off

or that it didn't suck..I am just stating that capitalism has done them no great service or miracle.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. Fascist

parties and neo-nazi groups now run rampant in Russia as well.

[manic expression]

10. It's really bad there

little girls are brutally killed on the streets because of their ethnicity, racist attacks are routine. According to the police, there are 40-50,000 neo-nazi skinheads in Moscow alone.

[John Gauger]

37. I understand precisely what you said.

My post was meant to be in agreement with yours.

[Union Thug]

17. Ask my Russian wife, who grew up in the Soviet Union, that question...

<edited to add text>
She hates what's become of her country.

Her family was working class - factory workers mostly. They had free summer camp, free medical, free childcare, 1 year of maternity leave, free university education.

Of course things weren't great, but she insists that the stability of her upbringing allowed her to do things that she cannot do in the states. She didn't like having to keep religious stuff quiet (apparently, her mother maintained some religious beliefs) for fear of losing one's job (but for an atheist like me, I couldn't care less). Her family had a car and her dad had a Ural motorcycle/sidecar. Frankly, her upbringing sounds a lot like my own working class upbringing.

She wishes that Russia would have adopted a democratic socialist model when the authoritarian model dropped. Instead, it's gangster capitalism, with the oligarchs and the mafia in control of a large part of the economy. She hates the oligarchs for ripping off the public when they assumed power...

Oh, she hates Yeltsin, she calls him a pathetic drunken buffoon.
Sorry to ramble, but Ithought people would be interested in her perspective.

[BayCityProgressive]

23. Thank you

For your perspective..or your wifes I should say. Reasons like this are why I always have considered myself socialist and love people like Bernie Sanders.

[Union Thug]

28. You're welcome...here's something else...Since Capitalism...

...the sense of community has collapsed there. They've become obsessed with the same kind of glitter that Americans believe is somehow important..cell phones, iPods, pdfs, etc. <FYI - I'm trying to transcribe her stream of conciousness memories>

There were no commercials on television. One thing that people in the US fail to realize is that marketing is just as much propaganda as anything the soviets dreamed up, and as such (though there certainly were social divisions evident in schools), the extreme fashion show mentality orchestrated by the corporate marketing machine did not exist among kids in the SU.

School required community involvement. She remembers that her class was assigned to assist the elderly in the community. There were recycling competitions between classes.

Funny, she just told me to let you know that they were focused on world events in school, and were encouraged to report on the plight of people like Leonard Peltier. :-)

There is currently a nostalgic movement among many Russians. For example, one TV channel decided to do their new year's coverage (it's a big deal there!) free of commercials, just as they did in Soviet times, because of this.

Another thing - war veterans were NEVER homeless.

She instists that the US propaganda machine has overstated the 'evils' of communism.

Re. the religious thing mentioned previously...she just said that t.."nobody should know that you have church icons, or follow religious events...my mom told us never to tell" Would they lose their jobs? "No, but it would go into a file, or they would be reprimanded somehow."

She could go on all night..

[BayCityProgressive]

30. Marketing is the strongest

tool of the ruling class. You need this to cure your pimples, you need this car to be safe, you need this cologne to get a girlfriend more and more and more it never ends. The job of a marketer is to convince you you need something Even when you don't.. It keeps people so caught up in trying to be "better" than their neighbor that we lose site of anything of importance I also believe this is the reason so many people are on anti-depressents and pain killers. . The thing you describe sounds lightyears ahead of the hellhole our country is quickly becoming.

[Union Thug]

32. She says that she remembers, of course, limited

choices ie. not much a selection in the stores for toys, etc, the whole toilet paper shortage thing, (she interjects she had stuffed animals and such as a girl), and there was certainly a black market where you could get ANYTHING. The corruption was a huge problem.

She says that they were more self-sustaining than americans in some ways. She says her family had their own garden..a real garden (at least as big as the piece of property our house is on..a decent sized lot) with a "dacha" - I guess it's a little tiny cabin, and they had apple trees, plums and grew vegetables which they canned for the winter). She says that her whole family would pile into the Zapparoshetz (sp?), a little car about the size of a VW bug (original bugs)and spend their weekends there during the summer.

Part of high school had them helping local farmers on the collectives. They would spend about a month out on the farm. She said it was fun, not a labor camp (as some would say). There was music, dances, DJs, food.

No one was starving in the streets, as some would have you believe, while she was in Russia (she came to the states in 2000). Funny, she says, that New Years ornaments of Soviet Times are very desirable these days. (not sure why that came out) :-)

She says that,yes, there were a lot of problems, but that her family and friends didn't feel oppressed by the state or anything like that. She says that she really didn't like the amount of time they had to spend studying Lenin's life in school, but that her school days were good ones. She was part of the audio/visual crew, organized dances, etc. An outgoing kid. She was able to try many different sports, and participate in academic clubs, arts, music, dance.

I wish I could show you the pictures of her family during these times. I think a lot of Americans would be surprised. A lot of things were very similar. For example, their were pop music icons (for ex. Pugochova (sp?)) was a big deal. She mentioned others, but I can't for the life of me attempt to transcribe their names!!! They had ice villages in the winter in her home town of Kamensk Uralsky (ural mountain region not terribly far from Yekaterinburg).

[Union Thug]

33. She added that shooting was a requirement in school! To prepare

for the capitalist invasion!

Thought that was great and had to pass it along.

[BayCityProgressive]

35. LOL.

the shooting thing is funny. hey the NRA woulda loved the USSR;-) . all very interesting stories. This is why we need to take stories about Cuba, China, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, and the left movements in Latin America very with a big grain of salt. You never know when they are feeding you the propaganda. People say Cuba, for example hates religion. Funny, the Pope has been there, Christmas is a national holiday, and the Episcopal Church just appointed a woman Bishop to Cuba. The first female bishop in the developing world. The church said very few countries in the developing world are progressive enough to allow this. Also, many renouned Bhuddists live in Vietnam, which also supposedly hates religion.

[killbotfactory]

34. That's an important point, regarding commercials

Regarding commercials and propaganda.

The "father of PR" Edward Bernays was first a propagandist, he simply changed the name once propaganda got a bad name.

There is a documentary called Century of the Self which describes it.

Or you can watch this Frontline episode for examples of the bizarre and Orwellian methods meant to manipulate the public into buying crap: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/

[Union Thug]

36. advertisers are using cognitive science to manipulate us..

Juliet Schor Does a great job exposing how marketers are poisoning children using psychology and cognitive theory to input their garbage into their conciousness.

As for American and Soviet propaganda, Valdas Anelauskas (a former soviet dissident who changed his opinion of the US after living here) talks a little about it in his book "Discovering America as it is". I don't remember the exact quote, but he talks about the sophistication of American propaganda compared to the crude propaganda of the soviets.

Thanks for link and the documentary suggestion.

[manic expression]

40. That is fascinating

thank you so much for that.

[papau]

29. Harvards "big bang open markets" Jeffrey Sachs and "no aid ever" Bush 41 managed to screw up

Russia.

By the time aid came around the time Clinton was sworn in, all the trained economic reformers were tossed by Yeltsin.

Sachs now does an "IMF is bad" shtick - as he sells books on how $150 billion would cure the problems in the poor nations, if they would only do "open markets and trade" his new way - the correct way.

I once wondered how Sachs sleeps at night - after seeing the conversion to a capitalist market - as defined by the GOP - that he advocated going to with minimal if any transition - resulting in the theft of most of the economy by the Russian mafia and Yeltsin's friends - the new billionaires of Russia.

[manic expression]

9. Terrible article

The USSR, even in its most corrupt and problem-ridden days, was undeniably better than what has replaced it.

Twentieth-century socialism, like the socialism of the century before it, worked very well.

I completely agree with your comments, as well as others' on this thread.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. I feel so bad for the people of the former USSR

yes their political system was very corrupt and many other institutions needed MAJOR reform..but they are in a living hell now and many wish that the fall never would have happened. They would have been better off fixing the system they had. Gorbachev and others sold them down the river.

[manic expression]

19. Too true

and too unfortunate. I completely agree with you on all points.

It makes my stomach turn to think of the injustice, when their society falls into the precipice we go off celebrating our "victory".

[BayCityProgressive]

24. and notice

the US never criticizes Russia for rampant fascism...only when a lef-progressive movement gains power do they attack. This shows you the true nature of the beast.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. Does anyone still believe

That Hugo Chavez will willingly let the country he wants to rename *stop* being Socialist or Bolivarian if the majority of the populace want it to, or that he's willing to let people who want to stop it being so campaign for it to do so on equal terms to himself?

He's not a dictator - he has no need to be - but he is a deeply unsavoury autocrat, and it's becoming increasingly clear with everything he does that he doesn't give a damn about free and fair elections and the like.

[manic expression]

14. I wasn't sure

if people still believed that Venezuela's elections were anything but fair and acceptable (at least by Jimmy Carter's standards).

[BayCityProgressive]

15. um

do you even know what your talking about? The elections have been called free and fair by international bodies including the Carter center. Get educated on the facts.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. Please reread what I actually said.

I did not claim that Chavez has not won free and fair elections in the past, I said that he will not allow them in the future if it looks as though there's any chance he won't win. As evidence, witness the extent to which he has taken personal control of most of the apparatus of state, and his interference with the media, which would provoke howls of outrage from every DUer so loud they'd be audible all the way from Washington to Venezuela if Bush were to emulate them.

[oldtimecanuk]

20. Not sure where your coming from but I totally disagree with you.

We are rapidly falling into, (Hell I don't even know what we are falling into in both the US and Canada and of course Great Britain) but it is clear to me that most if not all people of these countries (if they even know, that is most citizens, since the MSM is non existent). We are certainly under attack as far as freedoms are concerned in all three of these countries, and the MSM is not there to advise citizens of what is going on. My feeling right now is, I would rather have a leader like Hugo than one like George or Tony or Steven... MHOOC

ww

[killbotfactory]

12. Chavez's critics seem to prefer to do nothing

"Venezuelan critics insist, however, that such programs are inherently flawed -- assembling hefty, corrupt and inefficient bureaucracies that will prove detrimental to the country in the long run."

The alternate would apparently be to privatize everything and out the screws to the poor for a few more decades.

[Union Thug]

18. Democratic Socialism does very well in northern europe... n/t

[smalll]

21. I read the whole article,

on the whole it actually seems relatively fair if not friendly towards Chavez. That's how it struck me. Sure, it was couched in doubt, given the history of the last century, that socialism can work, but other than that I don't think Hugo himself could complain much.

[oldtimecanuk]

25. That is the whole point, Hugo has never complained about...

anything other than the US (unwanted) involvement in his country.... GWB seems to have a habit of sticking his nose into countries that don't want his advise. And why the hell would anyone want advise from the US with the current situation in the country? I can't believe that an Auziee owns most of the MSM in the US and thus dictates what the American people may or may not see on their TV's or hears on the radio....

This is absolute Bullshit... And Congress should be looking into who owns MSM and what the ownership looks like in the US.....

ww

[BayCityProgressive]

26. don't

hold your breath waiting for that. I am a pessimist but I honestly believe the last six years have been a horrid downward spiral..both parties have supported fascism abroad in the past but now it is being brought right into our communities. By 08 I think only a popular people's movement using ballot initiatives and other measures will save our country fromt he abyss.The two parties with the exception of a few have sold us down the river to hell.

[oldtimecanuk]

27. I agree with you, but my problem is how will the people know?

Many if not most people don't know what is going on if they are watching MSM.... As most know, the information that is being disseminated via MSM is low to none... I don't know how these people are going to be given the information that is imperative to understanding what is going on.

ww

[BayCityProgressive]

31. it's like a crack addict

we will have to hit total rock bottom, full scale repression, economic collapse ect before the chains of propaganda, fear, and constant marketing are finally broken. By the way, I think that time is coming VERY soon and it is a CHILLING thought.:scared: