US Airways contributed to death of Carol Gotbaum

[mainer]

"Why Flying Now Can Kill"

"There's every reason to believe that Gotbaum would be alive today if she had been allowed to board her flight to Tucson and take her rightful seat. While her tragedy has been a Page One story in many newspapers, few reports have focused on the fact that the airlines involved, US Airways and its subcontractor, Mesa Airlines, are notorious for overbooked flights. According to the New York Times, US Air had revenue last year of $11.56 billion. Of that, $1 billion was the result of diligent overbooking.

The stressful, often incendiary situations created by overbooking infuriate perfectly healthy, well-adjusted passengers. It's not hard for me to imagine that an emotionally fragile, vulnerable person like Gotbaum could have felt absolutely desperate.

Gotbaum wasn't late for boarding. She didn't forfeit her place by ignoring the airline's procedures. Her only mistake was showing up at the US Airways gate and believing that her paid-in-full, reserved-seat airline ticket meant that she would actually have a seat on the plane."

(More)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101201887.html

[malaise]

1. Bingo

what's more the war on terror at airports is sure working in favor of these corrupt airlines.

[Didereaux]

2. What would be wrong with BOYCOTTING US Airways? n/t

[adadem]

3. Nothing wrong with that at all

I avoid US scAirways at all cost. Once was enough for me.

[pnwmom]

20. I personally have no interest in ever flying them again.

Not unless I hear they have a major change in management.

[LisaL]

204. Then don't. No one is making you.

If this airline has a flight I need, I have no intention of not using it because of Carol Gotbaum. I don't feel that airline is responsible for this woman being dead. Try to do what she did in airport and see how far it gets you. By the way you previously provided links to articles that claim her flight was at 1:30. That flight was actually at 1:13, not one 1:30, according to the airline. If she arrived at 1:05, that only left 7 minutes before the flight. How was the airline at fault?

[PA Democrat]

4. I hope that some of the people who were defending US Airways read this.

She did everything she was supposed to do, but US Airways and their greed and nasty attitude pushed a very vulnerable woman to the edge.

Flying has become a nightmare for even those without health issues. I recall waiting in a line to check baggage (this was while curbside baggage check-in was banned) for more than 90 minutes on a non-holiday. There was a pool of vomit in the rat maze through which you had to negotiate your luggage and it was never cleaned up the entire time we were in line despite numerous complaints.

In the last 5 years, I have yet to fly WITHOUT seeing angry passengers. Earlier this year we were appalled by the TSA's abusive treatment of an elderly woman in a wheelchair which resulted in the daughter of the elderly woman screaming at the TSA agent. I guess she's lucky she didn't get arrested.

Flyers are supposed to accept crappy service, inhuman conditions, ridiculous waits without complaint. It could be deadly.

[Pavulon]

6. Bullshit

Fly varig, then talk about bad service. I havve flown on some god awful airlines and seen some indiana jones shit on an airplane. Flying sucks, for sure. But deadly, come on.

I assume rational adults are posting here. DMV sucks, but it is not "deadly" unless you throw a fit, get arrested, and choke yourself to death.

People need to take responsibility for their actions..

[terisan]

13. Fly Fascista.......the rest of us want to be treated as customers and get what we have paid for.nt

[pnwmom]

23. Carol Gotbaum was taking responsibility. After 8 days of sobriety,

even if she had something to drink at the airport, she was in the throes of alcohol withdrawal and not in control of her actions. She didn't "throw a fit." She was, at the moment, physically and mentally ill -- and she should have been treated that way.

[KittyWampus]

70. Then why was a lapsed, suicidal alchoholic flying alone. Airlines are supposed to be psychic?

They are supposed to know she was mentally ill?

"She was, at the moment, physically and mentally ill -- and she should have been treated that way".

[pnwmom]

200. They didn't need to be psychic. She told them that she was flying out

for medical treatment and that she was a "sick mom." She stayed calm for more than an hour after her flight left. It was only after the airline also refused to put her on the NEXT flight out -- even though there was a volunteer willing to give up his seat for her -- that she started begging and crying. Then they decided to call the police rather than fill out the paperwork to let her on that flight. And they lied to her twice: first by telling her that she had arrived late, when their own regulations require passengers to be ready for boarding 15 minutes ahead of flight time. And second, by telling her that terrorism regulations prevented her from flying out on the next flight.

[WinkyDink]

62. I think that "choke yourself to death" part might be a cover-up of a crime.

What? She put the cuffs around her throat?

[Pavulon]

79. She was chained

to a desk. Not enough info to make an informed statement yet..

But people are arrested and detained daily, the police generally don't murder them.

[pnwmom]

201. There have been far too many cases of police putting people into chokeholds

and accidentally killing them.

Their argument is that she somehow killed herself with the handcuffs behind her back, fastened to a chain -- and all between the few minutes between 5:05 -- when two observers reported seeing her alive, sitting up, and crying -- and 5:14-- when the paramedics were summoned. Sounds like a trick almost worthy of Houdini.

[Poll_Blind]

151. Agreed: "People need to take responsibility for their actions."

  "I assume rational adults are posting here." You've been here since 2005- I'm amazed your "benefit of the doubt" hasn't run out yet!

PB

[Usrename]

153. Hell yes, your not your brothers keeper!

Screw the weak and powerless, let em' die i droves, thin the herd!

Moron.

[Pavulon]

5. Her behavior caused...

Jesus what is this world coming to. As adults we should be able to deal with something like being bumped from a flight without throwing a effing fit. We make choices and that is what she choose to do.

Se could have done plenty that would not have led to her arrest. She could have not flipped out and choked herself to death.

You can be bumped from a flight on any airlines at the discretion of the crew. That's life.

Feeling vulnerable and desperate is not an excuse to go wild. Same response would occur in any international airport.

[PA Democrat]

8. She was not bumped because of her behavior. She was bumped because of the GREED of US Airways.

She did not have an "effing fit" as you put it until she was still refused a seat on later flights when passengers offered her their seat.

[Pavulon]

11. Yep, If you have flown

for any amount of time this happens. If you did the same thing in a grocery store when they agged your raw chicken with your veggies.

If you throw a physical fit at the DMV, Bank, or wherever you get shit service, you will be removed from the premesis or arrested.

She choose to pitch a fit. Her call.

[Pachamama]

16. She "chose" to throw a fit???? Have you ever known someone who has a drug addiction or is mentally

fragile???? Obviously not, because if you did or had any familiarity with the fragility emotionally of such a person (especially since she was on her way (alone) to cross the country to go to a rehab center) then you would have a concept of how vulnerable such a person is, not to mention how close to rock bottom that person would have hit to be on the path to rehab.

She didn't "choose" to "pitch a fit" as you state.

Obviously empathy is not in your repertoire.

[Pavulon]

27. Actually I have

and I would not put them on an airplane halfway across the country with no help. Thats what friends and xanax are for.

I am sorry she is dead, but blaming the airline is outrageous.

[Pachamama]

36. Oh, so now its her husband's and family's fault for not flying with her???

Wow! Once again, you leave me absolutely speechless on your empathy and understandig of this woman's situation and the role that the airline played...

May karma teach you the lessons you have clearly not experienced...

[Pavulon]

48. Oh I have paid my dues

with family and my own pain. However there are two scenarios here. She was ok and needed no help, she flipped out and got arrested. Her call.

or, she was to ill to travel alone, and no one helped her. someone else made that call.

Either way the airline is not in on that series of events.

Again the airline is irrelevant, they are what they are. So is DMV, the IRS, and any other large bureaucratic mass. They suck, we know they suck, however throwing a physical fit will not fix your back taxes or get you on an airplane.

Sorry. Lets place blame where it is due.

[Quantess]

89. "Lets place blame where it is due."

Do you think she strangled herself?

[Pavulon]

91. Not enough information

to make a statement backed by fact. However many people are arrested and detained without being murdered by police...

[Joe Chi Minh]

93. "They are what they are!" Oh, that's OK then. It's wrong to blame them

for being to blame! The little guy has to defer to the psychopathy of corporations without demur - even though they are now natural persons under the law! Free those psychopaths from secure institutions - they are what they are. It is written... Pavulon has spoken.

[Pavulon]

95. Or you can buy a gulfstream..

drive, take the bus, whatever. However it seems like everywhere I have ever visited there have always been rules.

[Joe Chi Minh]

88. Well, that's a strange country you live in! My step-father used to roar

(and I mean 'roar') at an individual who messed him about. I once witnessed it in a bank in NZ in the sixties, and that teller sure got things right for him quickly. I don't remember the details but I wouldn't be surprised if a supervisor quickly stepped in.

[Pavulon]

90. You can yell, curse, etc

you just cant pitch a physical fit or threaten. I have heard some truly obscene things said to a ticket agent. Harsh by army standards of profanity.

[Joe Chi Minh]

94. Did she draw a gun or a knife? Or square up to the official? Or size him/her up for a Glasgow kiss?

[Pavulon]

96. Thew her phone and had a physical fit

failed to comply with law enforcement and was arrested. Disorderly conduct. Pretty common thing to be arrested for. It is not a God given right to show your ass whenever and wherever you feel like it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

134. Did she throw it at someone? What do you mean by a physical fit?

You can't mean a medical fit.

It's even less of a God-given right for a corporation to fail to deliver what it was paid for, as implicitly agreed! In the UK, there is a statutory duty to provide 'merchantable quality', apart from any legal recourse.

You mean "showing her ass" metaphorically, but it has a certain resonance with an issue in relation to which I agree with you that the only sensible thing to do is to accept that that's the way they are. It's not uncommon to read posts in which women state that they have a perfect right to walk around in very skimpy and provocative attire if they want to, without being raped or told it is unwise to do so.

However, as we all know, of course, the fact of the matter is that there are individuals who regard such displays as invitations to rape, and taking a stand on a philosophical point in the face of that reality is just stupid. But you equate the large corporations to rapists in this scenario, and that is plain wrong. The people who run the corporations should ensure that their businesses show the same consideraton for others as if the said corporations were indeed natural persons. Goodness knows they are psychopathic enough in their capitalist business ethic. Is it too much to ask that they put themselves out for their customers occasionally?

Well, yes, of course it is - as long as there are people like you who, to appearances at least, feel that the psychopathic cheating and plundering, Anglo-American business 'ethic' (all take, and give as little as they can get way with - which is more and more) is just dandy.

I know unreformed alcoholics in their cups can be impossible, so I can envisage a scenario in which that woman would have needed to be restrained in handcuffs, although not then chained to a desk and neglected. And how about sequestering unreformed psychopathic corporations?

But a) Don't forget or minimise the duplicity of the conctract they entered into with the woman when she bought a reserved ticket. The prior blame is definitely with them, even if she was partly to blame. Was there not an implicit contractual undertaking? If so, is their routine over-booking actionable, as it ought to be, or do they have a weasel clause covering them?

They certainly compounded their breach of their contractual undertaking by employing too few staff to deal with aleatory contingencies such the one here, in a considerate manner. What happened to 'The customer is always right'?

[Pavulon]

139. You need to call British Airways for me

They have failed to provide 'merchantable quality' to me on more than one occasion. I have been stranded by them more than once.

They did refund my money, eventually. Thousand pound mistake and a jobsworth telling me what my options were. Sure I wanted to yell and scream, but decided that would not help me get home. Like I said, it is part of traveling.

I mean a disturbance of the peace. Screaming, refusing instructions, running around bonkers is a fit. You cant do that in heathrow, cdg, or arizona. I do not know the UK statute but I am pretty sure you will be arrested/detained for going bonkers there.

As for her death, the final cause of death has not been released (i think). Until it is , we would just be guessing as to the situation. Law enforcement restrained her, not the airline.

The customer is not always right.

[Joe Chi Minh]

146. Well, it's a difficult issue the way you put it, but the fact that it was a woman

suggests to me that particular consideraton should have been shown her - whatever feminists may say.

[seabeyond]

192. if i had been bumped, with reservations, kids packed and ready to go

thinking the flight was booked and i was securely on, i would have thrown a HUGE fuckin fit. i dont know anyone personally that wouldn't be rattin and ravin if they book a flight to only be told they could not get on the plane because it was over booked. who would NOT throw a fit. we reserve with the seat with the understanding we will be on the flight. it could cause huge problems for some, a lot of people if the contract is not honored. and then for it to be a reason of greed for the peoples that own the company would escalate it tenfold.

why we as customers would accept anything less amazes me. have we all become complacent sheep to be herded with no rights, or expectations, all of the whim of the few that have?

and i am not on drugs or mentally ill. but man would i make a scene

yawl dont have to worry though, that you can ever run into one of my fits cause.... i have already said no to the loss of all rights and walking into a prison system that the airport has become. i might get pissed if they treat me like a criminal making me spread eagle for a wand. and that i would refuse to be intimidated and might express a simple "this pisses me off" could result in my being tackled, with a knee in the neck, arms yanked back to be cuffed and arrested. seeing that it is at least a possibility, i refuse to pay my money to people that allow, demand this environment for their paying customers

[pnwmom]

25. She didn't throw a fit. She was sick, and she told them so, repeatedly. n/t

[Pachamama]

7. Gives even more meaning to the name "US Scare"

I have never been a fan of US Air and only have flown them when I had no choice. My experiences with them have always been negative - overbooked flights, bad service, late departure/arrival etc.

Now after hearing about their role in this poor, fragile woman's death, makes me not want to EVER fly with them again.

It makes one wonder if Carol Gotbaum would be alive today if they had treated her better....I believe so.

[Pavulon]

9. She would be alive if (post in wrong place)..

she did not flip out in an airport. She would be alive if the police shot her in the leg. She would be alive if she just told the ticket agent to fuck off and die and then calmly went to get a drink.

We are confronted with greed every day.

Sorry, I believe that we are responsible for the choices we make.

[malaise]

10. She was on her way for treatment for said drinking

Where the fuck is your humanity?

[PA Democrat]

12. Amazing isn't it?

The airlines greed is OK, but a sick woman who is severely stressed out as a result of that greed is supposed to act responsibly. When do the airlines bear some responsibility for their actions?

[Pavulon]

17. When the planes fall from the sky

due to maintenance problems or pilot error, then they are at fault.

When someone throws a fit and gets arrested in the terminal, not so much.

This behavior will get you arrested in any international airport, CDG, heathrow, frankfurt, same reaction. Detain you and possibly charge you..

Is DMV responsible if I flip out because it takes 2 hours to get a renewed tag, and the agent is fucking off wasting my time?

No. We are adults, we are responsible for our choices. If she was not competent she should not have been alone.

[pnwmom]

42. The airline lied about their policy, which contributed to her being upset.

She knew she had arrived on time, and they pretended she hadn't.

[DS1]

47. yep, pretty much

the cops are mostly at fault

[RamboLiberal]

181. With what they pay their pilots and their training that will

happen at some point. From OP article:

The pilot told us they were terribly underpaid and overworked and that flying conditions were unsafe. Some pilots, he said, made only $19,000 a year and did not have adequate training.

And from what I read US Airways and Mesa really screwed over this woman. I hope the Gottbaums get a huge settlement.

But what about the passengers? US Air has said that it gave away Gotbaum's seat on a connecting flight because she arrived at the gate with only 25 minutes -- instead of 30 -- to spare. But she had already checked in for that flight at John F. Kennedy airport in New York. You don't have to check in again in the connecting city, as I understand US Air's regulations. The rules as posted on the airline's Web site also state, "Reservations are subject to cancellation if you are not checked in and at the departure gate at least 15 minutes prior to departure." Gotbaum was still covered. She'd left 25 minutes to spare.

Still, she was denied her reserved seat on the 1:30 flight. Nor did they allow her to board the next flight at 2:58 -- which, of course, was also overbooked. Finally, Mesa's counter personnel refused to let willing passengers switch with the clearly distraught Gotbaum. When she began to weep and protest, they called the police, who handcuffed her arms behind her back and dragged her away to a holding cell. They left her chained alone to a bench, crying inconsolably. Not long after, she was found dead, the chain shackling her to the bench stretched across her throat.

[Pavulon]

15. Please..

She was on a public transport system, ALONE. Her flight got screwed up, so what. I have been bumped from flights, cancelled on, and generally fucked over in at least 4 languages on several continents. Missed important events and had to pay thousands of dollars because of airlines. That is the reality of the world. It sucks, but I don't have a learjet.

It is terrible she died, but if she flipped in the DMV or because the grocery store put raw chicken in with her lunch meat the outcome would be the same.

She made a choice.

[Pachamama]

18. Actually, if a grocery store selling prepared foods put raw chicken in your sandwich & you got sick,

not only would that not have been "your" responsibilty for shopping there, but actually, the grocery store would be legally liable for this mistake, at a minimum for your medical costs. They have a responsibility to meeting health codes for the public safety and have legal liability.

Bad example.

[Pavulon]

22. We can stick to DMV or the IRS

institutional incompetence does not justify a physical fit. If one throws a physical fit, here or an any western nation, expect to be detained. Simple.

You cant blame the DMV if you get arrested when you flip out.

Someone needs to publish a chicken soup book or something with a list of dumb shit not to do.

[Pachamama]

26. You used the grocery store & chicken in a sandwich example, not me...And since your such an expert

on human behaviour, the law and what not to do, why don't you spend your time publishing a "Chicken Soup Book list of dumb shit not to do".....

I'm sure it will be a best seller and all the media will want your words of wisdom... :eyes:

[Pavulon]

39. Hangover logic...

however dmv is accurate. The list is great, things to do to avoid a pain in the ass or worse..

1) put your dope (open container) in the trunk. When the police ask to search your car say "no thanks, I am in a hurry".
2) pay for a taxi, dont drive drunk. Its always cheaper.
3) when confronted by law enforcement dont reach for the black cellphone in your waistband.
4) DMV agents, ticket agents, and the IRS dont care about your problems. All interactions with them suck, set the bar low, then be surprised.
5) Arguing with the police is a waste of time, that what court is for.
6) When outside the US watch and learn, you will gain appreciation for how good you have it by flying into mumbai.
7) Dont fly latin american airlines from country to country, they are really scary. Fly back to miami at night and sleep on the plane.

I have so many of these, most "life lessons" from friends and family.

Really, not throwing a fit is a pretty common thing. I am sure she had some control. People love to blame everyone, but pass up the obvious. She either had no business un escorted or choose to flip and brought the problems on herself.

[ecstatic]

140. I take strong objection to # 3-- Do you honestly believe

the cops don't make crap like that up at the last minute to justify why they shot an unarmed civilian dead?

[Pavulon]

143. Yep. As a rule..

police dont go to work to murder members of the public. Has it happened, sure, will it happen again, yep.

Odds it happened here, pretty small.

[mondo joe]

41. That's certainly not a good analogy. Selling unsafe food is not within legal standards

or within reasonable expectations.

Getting bumped from a flight, however, is within both.

[Pachamama]

46. I didn't make the original analogy - And your wrong - selling unsafe food does carry legal with it

legal consequences should someone get sick.

But congrats - you currently can share with two other posters in this thread the lack of empathy award for defending the airline and claiming "personal responsibilty" is what Carol Gotbaum lacked. :applause:

[Pavulon]

49. DMV is a better analogy..

I dont defend the airline. It could have been anything. The ticket agent at grand central, British Airways in heathrow, a yellow cab, does not matter.

They are not the responsible party. Feeling sorry for someone is not the same is assessing responsibility. This article tries to do that and is very wrong.

[mondo joe]

52. I didn't say it didn't. That's why it's not a good analogy.

Empathy is good, but it's not a substitute for reason. Especially not in determining accountability.

If Gotbaum was unable to manage a standard and customary practice, then she was too fragile to do it. That's not really the airline's fault, unless the airline had some prior arrangement for special care.

Similarly, I don't think it's the fault of Judas Priest or Marilyn Manson if a fragile person listens to their music and then decides to commit suicide. Do you?

[Pavulon]

65. Correct

context is everything. Like ice t said, cop killer will not make someone kill a police officer, they have already made that choice, now they have a theme song...

No, we are responsible for our choices. That goes for everyone, so if an airline chooses to fly shitty planes and kill people I will not fly them.. ValuJet or whatever they are now will not be getting my business.

[pnwmom]

73. Is it standard and customary practice to also refuse to put a passenger

on the next flight out, even when there are VOLUNTEERS willing to wait, in order to let a previously bumped passenger get on that flight?

Is unwillingness to do some paperwork standard and customary practice?

Is lying about missed boarding times and terrorism rules standard and customary practice? (She wasn't late, according to their own written policy, and terrorism rules didn't prevent another willing passenger on the next flight from being bumped so that she could fly in his place.)

[Pavulon]

76. Yes! Read the jacket.

you can be removed from an airplane or refused boarding for any reason.

[pnwmom]

108. But the point is that they gave a FALSE reason.

They didn't say we're denying you boarding BECAUSE WE CAN. They said we're denying you boarding because you are five minutes late -- although she was actually ten minutes early. Their own written policy said she had to be available for boarding 15 minutes before flight time, and she was there 25 minutes ahead.

And they also gave a false reason for not putting her on the NEXT flight. They said they couldn't do it in case she was a terrorist -- which is the point at which she broke down, begging and yelling that she wasn't a terrorist, she was a sick mom. In actuality, they had a willing volunteer and they could have done some paperwork and put her on the flight. But they chose not to.

I can't understand why anyone would defend the actions of these power-tripping, hard-hearted employees.

[Pavulon]

I guess you dont see

much institutional incompetence. Dealing with this is part of travel.

Bottom line is that she was either incompetent and should have had an escort or choose to do something really stupid.

I am not defending the airline, but those situations are common and part of life.

She choose not to buy another ticket on a different airline, choose not to complain to a manager, choose not to rent a car or get a hotel room. All reasonable responses.

Blame is easier than accountability.

[pnwmom]

157. Uh-huh. And where's the accountability for the "institutional incompetence"?

Here's where it is: I hope the attendant bad publicity causes US Air to take a significant loss in profit.

[Pavulon]

161. It will not

because people deal with DMV and such without going bonkers. And if it does take a dive, we get to bail it out!

[pnwmom]

165. Too soon to tell. The case hasn't been investigated yet.

Still lots of time for lots of bad publicity.

[PA Democrat]

174. Last time I checked DMV doesn't strand you in a strange city for DAYS

PHOENIX — The summer travel season is under way, and so many planes are expected to be full that, if you are bumped, you could end up waiting days for a seat on another flight to the same destination.

<snip>

The number of people bumped involuntarily — those refusing the voucher — rose 23 percent last year and kept rising in the first quarter of this year.

<snip>

At an employee meeting just after the merger, Mr. Parker was confronted about the issue by John Martino, then a gate agent in Boston. “You know you’re going to be yelled and screamed at to the point you have to call the police,” he said.


http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/05/30/business/30bump.html?pagewanted=1

Read the rest of the article. Angry, screaming customers have become a common occurrence. Airline employees call off sick because they don't want to deal with angry customers. They enter phantom bookings to try to avoid having to bump customers. The people in the executive offices don't give a damn about the anger and inconvenience they cause their customers.

Expect to see more sad situations like Mrs. Gotbaum because apparently most feel that the public should just STFU and take it.

[Pavulon]

125. dupe

dupe

[mondo joe]

77. I don't know. I would say, however, that there are a lot of people in flight

who don't get what they want when they want it, but they still need to behave in a reasonable way.

Air travel is a VERY frustrating experience. Even so, people manage to do it without behaving in such a way that security is called.

It sounds like Gotbaum either a) WAS able to manage air travel reasonably but chose not to, or (more likely) b) was NOT able to manage air travel but did not make arrangements for special care.

[pnwmom]

118. Sure, it would have been better if this woman could have been able to

behave in a reasonable way. But, for various reasons, some people can lose that ability, and it is not always predictable when that might occur. I'm sure her family is wishing her therapist had not sided with her on the choice of flying alone, and that someone had insisted on going with her anyway. But that didn't happen. After that, it was the responsibility of airport people to treat her as well as they could -- which they obviously didn't -- if nothing else, so that they and the responsibility of the police to keep her alive once they had physical custody of her.

[mondo joe]

122. I'd actually say if someone other than the police contributed to her death it would be her therapist

She clearly was in no condition to handle traveling.

[LisaL]

209. Please. You don't know if her therapist said she was o'key to

travel on her own, do you? I've seen to reasons given as to why she was flying by herself-one was that she wanted to fly by herself, and the other was that her husband couldn't leave the children alone. I've seen nothing said about her therapist saying she would be able to fly alone. Maybe I've missed something.

[pnwmom]

72. But they lied to her about why they bumped her.

They pretended she had gotten there too late, when she knew she was there in time -- their written policy says that she was to be available for boarding 15 minutes before flight time, and she was there 25 minutes early. (The 30 minutes applies to check-in, and she had already done that in NY.)

They also refused her an available seat on the NEXT flight out, pretending that they couldn't do it because of terrorism laws. Of course they could do it -- all they had to do it was fill out some paperwork to bump one of the volunteers -- but they couldn't be troubled.

[mondo joe]

74. And they should be held responsible for what they did.

But not for what they're NOT responsible for.

[pnwmom]

158. I agree. And maybe they can't even be held responsible for that --

there's probably not a law about lying to a passenger about the reason they're being bumped, and I'm sure there's no law requiring decent customer service.

But that doesn't mean that employees, in the course of their actions in their jobs, aren't morally responsible for treating people in a humane manner, just as we all should be striving all the time.

[mondo joe]

160. I really would rather airline staff not get involved in morality - the ugly flipside is

telling women not to breastfeed and shit like that. I'd rather they focus on just getting their work done efficiently.

In this case I think the issue really comes down to one thing: The women was either a) competent to manage her travel, in which case she chose to behave in such a way that security was called, or b) she was not competent to manage her own travel and no special care was planned for.

I strongly suspect it's B.

In either case, I don't think the airline staff is supposed to know how to assess people who are not competent to travel and then come up with ways to take care of them.

[pnwmom]

166. I'm not asking them to know how to assess people who are at their breaking point

But I am blaming them for refusing to help someone who clearly needed help, when ALL they needed to do to was to fill out some damn paperwork. She didn't lose control until she had waited another hour and they refused to let her on the NEXT flight. And that was their decision -- it wouldn't have delayed the next flight or inconvenienced anyone except the person who VOLUNTEERED to give up his seat. But some airline employee couldn't be bothered to fill out some papers that day.

I disagree with you about morality. Morality doesn't equal religious Puritanism. It is everyone's responsibilty to act in an ethical way in business transactions and in other parts of their lives, whether they have a religious reason for doing so or not.

[mondo joe]

170. A lot of airline workes are jerks. So are a lot of passengers.

I've seen shit from both sides. So I don't know how the staff is to know a person who needs help from a crazy manipulative passenger.

The fact is if she was not able to competently manage her own travel, she needed precautions but that didn't happen. She was not behaving like a competent person.

And by the time you reach going into treatment, things are generally pretty bad. I have an in-law in that state - she's all over the place and her family is at wit's end, despite having ample resources to provide for her. She's driving her own family who love her crazy - I can hardly imagine what she'd do alone at an airport. But I do know no one there would have the east training on how to handle her.

[pnwmom]

171. Training or no training -- why couldn't they have been bothered to fill

out some paperwork so a distraught customer could take a seat out on the next plane, and there was a volunteer ready, willing, and able to give her his seat?

[mondo joe]

185. What's their stated reason?

[pnwmom]

196. They told her they couldn't because of terrorism regulations.

But that isn't true, because she was already a checked-in passenger who had a ticket and had gone through all the screening. She could have "bumped" another passenger the same as anyone could -- if the airline had agreed to do the paperwork.

That's why she was screaming "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a sick mom." Because they pretended they couldn't give her a seat on the next flight out due to terrorism concerns.

[mondo joe]

197. If they lied they should be held accountable for that.

I don't know what the regulations are, or what her behavior was at that time.

[Pachamama]

14. Congratulations! You just won the award for the most heartless post/response to any OP on DU!

WOW!

I simply don't even know how to respond to such a "I believe in personal responsibility" opinion.

Congrats on your achievement for most sensitive and caring person and empathy!! NOT!

[Pavulon]

19. Everyone to blame, but...

no one accepts personal responsibility. Obviously her death is terrible, but US air did not kill her by bumping her from a flight.

That is insane, and sad that people can entertain that is a real alternative to reality.

[Pachamama]

24. US SCARE didn't kill Gotbaum - THEY CONTRIBUTED TO HER DEATH!

Big difference in legal terms, and its what this article refers to and what people are saying in this thread.

You choose to live in your reality. One clearly filled with lack of empathy and understanding of this woman's fragile nature and the fact that the airline put this woman in a hopeless situation that led to her demise.

Gee - from all your posts, I'm starting to think your an employee of US Air....because nothing else could explain your insensitive posts that excuse any responsibility of US Air.

[YankmeCrankme]

28. You have to understand,

To a lot of people "personal responsibility" means, "something happens, you die...tough shit".

[high density]

35. So if some idiot making $6/hr at Wendy's fucks up my order...

...and it's enough to make me snap and kill myself right there, you're saying it's Wendy's fault that I committed suicide?

Sorry but there is a great level of personal responsibility here with people's actions.

[YankmeCrankme]

45. Bad analogy nt

[high density]

54. Umm, it's exactly what you are fucking talking about!

Corporation pisses off somebody and it leads to their death.

[YankmeCrankme]

87. No, your analogy would be more appropriate if...

You were starving and Wendy's was the only food available.

After receiving your order you found it was inedible.

After complaining they refused to correct their order to make it edible and told you there was no more food available.

After refusing to correct their order, the customer next to you offered you his order that was the same and prepared correctly, but Wendy's refused to allow the customer to give you their food.

After becoming disconsolate, they called security and after restraining you, moving you to a waiting room and failing to monitor your condition you died.

That's what the fuck I'm talking about!

Next time use an analogy that actually reflects the situation!

[Pavulon]

92. Wendy's is not the only one, neither is us air

she could have walked to another airline and purchased a new ticket. But she did not act rationally, she choose to flip.

She could have purchased a refundable ticket. That is the only way to fly.

She had choices, she made a poor choice.

[YankmeCrankme]

152. You and your choices that are made in a vacuum...

Unfortunately, that isn't real life, choices are all predicated on events we don't necessarily have any control over or total knowledge of. I love this, "...she choose to flip." You really believe she choose to be irrational? You know, sometimes we aren't in a good mental state when we have to make choices.

Yes, everyone has choices, so did US Air and airport security and they choose badly, too. If Carol is going to be held accountable for her choices shouldn't they be too?

Do poor people choose to be poor? If they make a choice to buy housing and food for their family and not medical health insurance and one of them gets sick and it wipes out what little the family has...is that tough shit, too? They made their choice, right?

[Pavulon]

155. Context is key

this is not about poor people, this is not about medical care. Us Air is not responsible for what she did to herself while in custody. They are not responsible if they serve me alcohol and then I choose to drive my car drunk. I am responsible.

This is about being accountable for your choices. Either she was not in control and should not have been traveling alone or she was in control and made a bad choice. We all make bad choices, some of us accept the consequence for that.

If she flipped and then stopped she would be alive. If she walked down to another airline and bought a ticket she would be alive.

Going bonkers at the gate and then going bonkers in custody were bad choices. Trying to slip the cuffs around or fighting the restraints was a fatal choice.

Passing blame is pretty pointless. Unless there was misconduct by law enforcement, she made a series of choices that led to her death. Sad, but a daily occurrence.

[YankmeCrankme]

159. Stick to your point. Which is it is about choices, so any point where we make choices applies.

Choices aren't made in a vacuum and the rep from US Air had to make choices too. As far as I can tell you are fine with their choice and the choice of the security people, but you don't like the woman's choice. Only her choice contributed to her death? There were no other factors? Nothing else influenced the situation and where it lead? She had complete control over every aspect of the situation? If so, I think she would have chosen to board the plane.

Your level of frustration never reached a point where you made a bad decision? If it did, do you feel your death would have been warranted by that bad decision or level of irrationality?

What if the airline had chosen to let her board? Or allow her to take the seat of another passenger willing to give up their seat? Would she be alive today? I can't say for sure, but probably. Did they have a choice in allowing her to fly? Yes.

"Trying to slip the cuffs around or fighting the restraints was a fatal choice." You have no idea whether that was the case or not.

I really can't believe the level of callousness of posters on this board. I see it in so many threads. It's a version of the "I got mine, fuck you." mindset. The feeling of superiority that allows them to say that they wouldn't have made such a bad decision so the other person got what they deserved for making such a decision.

Yes, assessing blame is pointless. Of course that is how we have achieved levels of safety in many areas, by assessing blame for what went wrong. Good thing you don't work in OSHA.

[Pavulon]

163. Yep, made lots of bad choices

some that could have led to my death. However if riding a motorcycle 150mph had led to my death I would not expect Honda to be blamed for selling me a bike that can go that fast. I made a choice. She made a choice, assuming she was competent.

I have been in that EXACT position in london and it cost me almost 2000 dollars and many hours to fix. I was not allowed to board a connector because the first leg was late. So I had to pay more for another airline to get me where I needed to be.

Going bonkers there would have led to my arrest as well. Sorry, while I regret her death, her situation was minor. She choose to escalate it.

So unless the police murdered her she is responsible for her death. They could have hobbled her, cuffed her hands and feet and then hooked them behind her back. She would be alive if they shot her in the leg.

assessing blame to the airlines is pointless. Changing law enforcement detention procedures may be needed. However the only safe way to restrain someone in a full blown fit is by using more restraint.

[mondo joe]

164. Everyone made choices. But whose choices were directly responsible for

security being called? Hers.

Either she was competent to manage herself and did a VERY bad job of it, or she was incompetent to do so and precautions should have been taken.

The airline isn't a detox facility, and the staff aren't trained to manage people who need that degree of care.

[YankmeCrankme]

180. Boy, the OP posted that the airline's actions contributed to, not responsible for

Not saying they caused her death, just that their actions/choices contributed to the bad situation that lead to her death. Yeesh. You guys are so quick to absolve everyone else's actions to hammer the poor woman who actually died as a result of all the bad decisions and choices that were made by everyone involved. You don't think the airlines could have been more accommodating to her? Especially after passengers were willing to give up their seat to her? I believe they acted that way on purpose, probably taking pleasure in putting a customer in their place because they could. Very authoritarian. So yes they did contribute to the outcome. I don't think she choose to act irrationally, she acted emotionally in response to the bad situation that was presented her.

I'm not saying they need to be a detox facility or be trained in managing people with issues. But, perhaps they could be trained in customer service, like helping a customer and accommodating them when they get screwed over by the airline company.

[mondo joe]

183. Do you think if a mentally ill person listen to Judas Priest and then commits

suicide that Judas Priest contributed to his death?

Simple Customer Service isn't good enough to handle someone who is NOT COMPETENT to manage themselves. It shouldn't be expected to be.

[YankmeCrankme]

191. Irrelevant analogy...

So you think Charlie Manson was not responsible for the murders of Sharon Tate, et al? Didn't even contribute to them? That he was unjustly convicted and imprisoned and should be set free? I want to be sure that you know what you're saying, that people don't bear any responsibility for the actions of others where it applies, whatsoever? So leaders who sent soldiers to fight bear no responsibility on the actions of those soldiers? That there is no such thing as responsibility for the actions of those that are under your command? So if a commander says "take no prisoners" and his troops kill all surrendering enemies that he didn't contribute to that or is responsible for it?

All choices/reactions are made in a vacuum, no outside influence, no extenuating circumstances, no contributing factors? Every person is an island upon themselves?

Wow, I guess the influence on peoples actions from speeches, books, movies, etc. are all illusionary. You've never been influenced by the words of another or a book read? Your parents didn't contribute to your character, you were fully formed from birth?

So, to answer your question. Yes, in that mentally ill persons mind, the song contributed to their death. Not Judas Priest themselves, but the song. There is a difference, you know.

And again, didn't ask if the airlines needed to "handle" the person, just provide them with proper customer service, like not taking their seating away and when it became a problem to rectify it by getting her another.

[mondo joe]

193. To the contrary....

The analogy is dead on. When a mentally ill person reacts in an exceptional way to a very ordinary stimulus that other people function with daily, the fault is not the stimulus.

People get bumped on airlines and deal with delays every day, and don't have a fit as a result. This person was NOT COMPETENT TO TRAVEL ALONE. I don't know what you don't get about that.

As to your very poor analogy: Yes, Manson was directly responsible for compelling others to commit murder. That's not even a legal question.

[YankmeCrankme]

194. My god, I wasn't giving YOU an analogy...

You didn't address anything I said, really. By your reasoning Manson can't make them commit murder, they had a CHOICE, so what responsibility does he have if they act on it? It's your argument not mine.

Thank you for your time. Have a nice day.

[mondo joe]

198. But of course you did. You used Manson as an analogy.

"By your reasoning Manson can't make them commit murder, they had a CHOICE, so what responsibility does he have if they act on it? It's your argument not mine."

No, that's not my reasoning. They had a choice which is why they bear responsibility as well. But his direction makes him complicit as well.

But that doesn't bear on this case at all. No one at the airport compelled her to act out as she did. No one directed her to do that. They aren't responsible for her inability to cope with ordinary occurences.

[Pachamama]

98. Bravo....an accurate analogy as opposed to the analogies being given by this unsympathetic crowd

with no sense of compassion, empathy or how humans should be treated in difficult circumstances.

:applause:

[mondo joe]

115. Unsympathetic?

Do you think Marilyn Manson contributes to the death of a mentally ill teen who listens to his music and then commits suicide?

Sympathy isn't supposed to falsely attribute blame.

[YankmeCrankme]

154. The fact that they refused to allow fellow passengers...

to give up their seat to her indicates, to me, that it was personal with US Air. And that makes them partially responsible to what happened to her.

[Pavulon]

156. Nope, It means they choose

not to allow her ot board. That is a standard practice and is used daily. You can be denied boarding for any reason, they chose to deny her boarding because she was bumped, going bonkers, or whatever. Does not matter. You can be removed for the same.

As a passenger those are the rules. You agree to them when you buy the ticket.

She choose how to respond. Complain to a manager, buy another ticket, go eat calm down and then deal with it would be smart choices.

[high density]

31. Oh come on

Corporations are not responsible for the mental health of their customers. I've been pissed off at plenty of companies and when I get burned I just decide to scratch them off of the list of places that I do business with.

I mean what do you want them to do, force Xanax and tranquilizers on everybody that visits an airport so they don't freak out when something goes wrong?

Shit happens every day and the GREAT majority of people deal with it just fine.

[pnwmom]

38. This corporation first lied about why she was being bumped.

They told her that she was five minutes late, when their own written policy said she was 10 minutes early.

Then, when they had an opportunity to put her on the NEXT flight out -- another passenger offered to let her fly in his place -- they were too lazy to do the paperwork to have Gotbaum bump that passenger.

When shit happened, the airline had an opportunity to at least tell the truth about their own overbooking, and then make things right for Gotbaum. Instead, they treated her a sick passenger like dirt.

[high density]

50. They treat everybody like dirt

And as with human nature, the people who act nasty to the workers are likely to have the least accommodations made for them.

Too lazy to do paperwork? Maybe they didn't want to hold up the entire plane for somebody who was acting like a lunatic and shouldn't have been flying alone to begin with.

[pnwmom]

56. They wouldn't have had to delay the second plane for her.

The other passenger offered to take her place in plenty of time for her to get on that flight.

And she didn't "act like a lunatic" -- if by that you mean begging loudly -- until they denied her boarding on that SECOND flight, even though they had a volunteer to let her take his place. They would have had to do some paperwork to accomplish that, though, and so they said no.

If US airways always treats its passengers like dirt, all the more reason for all of us to avoid flying on them.

[electron_blue]

187. I agree with everything you've written - thanks for giving this point of view.

I think it was a tragic accident from what I have read. One of my first thoughts upon hearing this was wondering whether she would have flipped out on the plane had she boarded it. You're right - either she needed to be supervised while traveling, or she didn't. If the latter case was correct, then she decided to no longer control herself. From what I've read, in hindsight, she should have been supervised while traveling - what an ordeal she was going through and she was obviously pretty vulnerable at that time. It seems like nobody (her family, doctors) realized she was in that category, though? Not sure. I have an in-law who is bi-polar and has physical outbursts and fits in public, but not in a predictable manner. You can't tell when she will 'go off'. Yet she travels by herself all the time. Her immediate family don't see that she is that bad off.

[mondo joe]

66. Empathy and reason can exist together.

Empathy used in place of reason leads to tragic errors. So can the reverse.

[pnwmom]

29. The police are, ultimately, the ones responsible for her death.

At the moment they arrested her, they took physical custody of her -- which means they are responsible for the fact that her death occurred in their custody. Instead of taking proper care of her, they put her in a cell alone, without constant observation, with the means to kill herself. It doesn't matter what happened up till that point -- the police owned this problem from the moment they arrested her and put her into handcuffs.

[high density]

21. Overbooking is an industry standard

And it's one reason why the fares are so low. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people go through this every day and survive it. The last time it happened to me I was flying United. I was very polite and civilized about it all and ended up getting a nice aisle seat in an exit row.

[mvccd1000]

32. Agreed. Happens all the time, and I'm still alive.

As I've said in most of the other threads on this subject, the first time I was bumped from a flight was nineteen years ago. This is not a new practice. I've been bumped on Northwest, Delta, and United. Never been bumped on US Airways (or America West, when that was the name).

If YOU were the ticket agent and had to deal with an overbooked flight, KNOWING you had to bump some of the passengers, who would you help; the loudmouth jackass who is making life difficult for you and the other passengers, or the calm customers who make your life easier?

Hindsight is 20/20, but how on earth was the gate agent (or the police) supposed to know that this was a drug (alcohol) abuser who was out of her mind?

She caused her death.

[Pachamama]

33. I agree its an industry standard - however US Scare has taken it to new "heights"

I have personally experienced in the dozen flights or so that I have taken with them, atleast half of them where I have been "bumped" and seen this far more on any other airline. Lucky for you that you got to get a nice aisle seat in an exit row. I have responded politely and gotten far less than that. But I can assure you that if you and I were in the fragile state that Carol Gotbaum was, as she tried to make her way to drug rehab, you were away from your husband and three children, scared and vulnerable, 2000 miles away from home and shaking and then you thought as you got ready to board a plane and were then told you couldn't get to the help you needed (because your sick) then you might not be able to control your emotional state and be "polite". Imagine, this woman was probably having alchohol related withdrawal symptoms, had no support around her and even when other passengers offered their seat so she could get to the help she so desperately needed, the airline personnel wouldn't even allow it. There is no question in my mind that if the airline staff at the counter had allowed her to take someone else's seat, that she would have gotten to Arizona and the help she needed and she would be alive today.

[pnwmom]

34. You might not have been so polite and civilized about it

if you also were denied boarding on the NEXT flight out -- even though someone else agreed to let you take their place.

And you might not have been so polite and civilized if you were desperate to get to medical treatment.

And you might not have been so polite and civilized if they told you you were being denied because you were late, and you knew you actually had arrived in time -- that the airlines own written policy stated that you were to be available for boarding 15 minutes before flight time. (The 30 minutes was for check-in, which she had already accomplished in New York.)

[high density]

43. So that would cause me to go crazy?

Yes, I'd certainly be pissed and I would probably never fly US Airways again. But I would not be to the point where I'd make such a scene causing me to be locked up in handcuffs!

Why wasn't a family member flying with Gotbaum if she was evidently in such a fragile state? After all, she was headed to a rehab facility!

[pnwmom]

51. How do you know how you would behave

if you were in the throes of alcohol withdrawal? This woman had been dry for 8 days, so even if she had something to drink at the airport, she was undergoing withdrawal and desperate to get to the treatment center. She DID remain calm until they also refused to put her on the NEXT flight out. She tried to tell them how sick she was, but they wouldn't listen. I blame them for lying to her about why she was bumped -- it was so they could make money, not because she had been late -- and for not having a heart. They could have treated her with kindness and helped her get out on the next flight, but they chose to punish her instead.

[high density]

I guess I don't know because

1. I don't drink
2. Don't do drugs

But I suppose US Airways somehow forced her to become an alcoholic before this all started anyway which led her to need rehab.

[pnwmom]

69. You didn't address the issues in my post.

She remained calm until they refused to do the paperwork to put her on the next flight out -- which wouldn't have caused any delay to that flight. They knew she was anxious to get to Phoenix for treatment, but they couldn't be bothered.

They are responsible for their behavior, which was to act like heartless robots. Oh yeah -- and for lying, and trying to pretend that she lost her seat by getting there too late.

[Pachamama]

55. In hindsight, should a family member have traveled with her? Absolutely! But none of that

dismisses the role that US Scare played in contributing to her death. And in regards to the "scene" she apparentely caused that got her arrested, neither you, nor I can say what we would have done in her shoes because has either one of us ever been drug addicted, going through withdrawal and in that kind of fragile desperate state emotionally? Thankfully, I have not, and hopefully neither have you, but I can not say how I would have reacted, and I have empathy for her and there for the grace of God went you or I. But I can find fault with US Scare/Messy Airline and I will bet she would be alive if they had let her take the seats that were offered up by other passengers and denied by the airline staff at the counter, and I'll put money on the fact that so will a jury.

Meanwhile, lets hope we find ourselves in a hopeless situation like Carol Gotbaum. I meanwhile leave this thread because I have Pachababies to attend to and not to feel saddened by the lack of empathy from my fellow DUers for this woman or the denial in the responsibility and role of the airline.

Namaste

[mondo joe]

59. But what role are you claiming the airline played in her death?

Seriously - what did they do that doesn't happen every day without resulting in death??

Empathy is not a reason to falsely attribute blame.

[Occulus]

71. We're not talking about you, we're talking about her

Go drink a glass of empathy, and come back once it sets in.

[KittyWampus]

82. forget it

[aikoaiko]

30. All US Air did was bump her off a flight -- their part in the causal chain is minimal

She died, apparently, of strangulation in the holding room. Her death needs to be investigated to determine who is mostly responsible for her death. Either she did it too herself or the police killed her. Frankly, I'm surprised there were no cameras in the rooms. People in holding rooms should be monitored.

I think this editorial writer is just using (exploiting) the Gotbaum death because s/he doesn't like the common practice of overbooking and US Air's zealous use of the practice. No one has to fly US Air and agree to there terms (overbooking).

Blaming US Air for her death (even partially) is silly.

[Pachamama]

40. No, that wasn't just "all" that US Scare did - they also denied her from being allowed to take the

seat on the flight, even when multiple passengers offered their seats for her. You don't think that if she had been allowed by the airline staff to get on the flight that she would be alive today?

[Pavulon]

58. Irrelevant.

She would be alive if the police shot her in the leg. She would be alive under many scenarios. That is not realistic.

Bottom line she did not deal with a minor problem that happens ALL THE TIME. Airlines fuck over passengers, when you fly it is going to happen.

You can do plenty of things (domestic). You can curse, you can insult people, you cant threaten people or throw a fit.

When you are arrested you don't have to flip out and choke yourself to death. You can shut the fuck up (a great choice that I used in the past), or yell and scream, spit on the police and even piss all over yourself (a poor choice a friend made, 10 days in jail and an article 15 when he finally returned to his post).

She made a poor series of choices, or someone else made a poor choice by allowing someone who is not competent to fly.

[aikoaiko]

67. Maybe she would be alive but the point is US Air only bumped her and didn't allow her on the flight.

The "she would be alive today game" argument works both ways...

For example, she would be alive if she hadn't blown off her original, direct flight from NY to Tucson.

or

She would be alive today if she hadn't thrown her cell phone at people, screamed and ranted, and failed to calm down when confronted by airport police.

or

She would be alive today if her husband, who knew she couldn't handle routine inconveniences such as being bumped from a flight, escorted her to Tucson.

I think such weak linguistic games only serve to detract from the real issue of how she died in custody.

[electron_blue]

188. Multiple passengers offered their seats for her? That makes me suspicious

and even more likely to wonder whether she was already acting out and sending up red flags to the agents.

[mainer]

101. They didn't just "bump her" -- they snatched away her seat

She had a reserved seat on the connecting flight. That seat was assured her when she checked in at JFK.

[aikoaiko]

106. oh no -- the horror -- they "snatched away her seat".

for most people, its called being bumped due to overbooking. US may have jumped the gun when they bumped her, but that's a gripe one takes up with a supervisor -- not by throwing a hissy fit.

Perhaps you think this is a great injustice, but for me its just an irritation that comes along with flying. Overbooking and the potential for being bumped is a part of every ticket I buy to fly.

[mainer]

109. When they checked her in, they assured her the next seat

This isn't bumping. This is theft, plain and simple. That connecting seat was HERS and they gave it to someone else.

Passengers should never have to be STRANDED in a strange town, without hotel accommodations, just because of an airline's whims.

Bumping from a departure point is one thing; taking away your assigned seat in a connecting city is something else.

Besides which, isn't it against FAA regulations for a passenger's luggage to fly unaccompanied by the passenger? Didn't her luggage already get loaded onto the connecting flight -- without her?

[Pavulon]

113. No it is not "her" seat

you can be denied boarding for any reason. They generally compensate you but that is not a guarantee.

Had she not gone bonkers she would be just fine. Worst case, stay in a hotel and catch a flight the next day.

This is quite common. You agree to the terms when you buy the ticket.

[mainer]

117. You lamb-like consumers amaze me!

You think it's acceptable that she should pay for a hotel room for something that's the airline's fault?

I cannot believe the "sheep" here who so happily agree to being abused by the airlines. An airline trip is a product we, the consumers, pay for. In exchange for the product we buy, we expect our product to be delivered. If we keep our side of the bargain by showing up on time, paying the price of the ticket, and making it to our connecting gate, then the airline owes us what we paid for.

Yet you sound as if you think it's a PRIVILEGE to hand over our money to a company that doesn't deliver, abuses us, and expects us to put up a hundred bucks for a hotel room because THEY did not keep their side of the bargain.

[mondo joe]

123. Lambs thing the business is their friend and is there to take care of them.

It pays to understand what you're getting into.

[Pavulon]

127. They generally pay

when they cause you to miss a flight. However I am a realist. I have flown countless flights in many places.

Airlines are what they are. If I could afford to charter a gulfstream I would have, believe me.

But I am not going to make my life miserable fighting a system that is not going to respond in any way to my grief.

So rather than throw fits and freak out, I bought refundable tickets and got creative when they screwed me over.

US Air on its worst day is still better than many domestic carriers in other countries.

[electron_blue]

189. abusive behavior by the airline does not merit abusive behavior to the agent, passengerspolice, etc.

On this we apparently disagree.

[aikoaiko]

126. Have you ever flown with connecting flights? being bumped on connection is common

The luggage stuff really doesn't matter in this case.

[mainer]

130. I've NEVER been bumped on connection.

And that's on multiple business trips around the world. If I have my boarding pass, I expect them to honor it.

I can understand Carol Gotbaum being upset.

[Pavulon]

142. I have

by BA, Quantas, and other major carriers. Some were easier to deal with than others. I was denied boarding a connector because the first leg was late. They would not rebook on another carrier and told me to come back the next day. They did offer to pay.

So I bought a very expensive ticket one way on another carrier. BA did refund my money for the entire ticket and that covered most of the cost of the replacement. Still shit happens.

Business travel is different, sure I was pissed but going bonkers was not going to help the situation.

On a domestic trip, who cares. It is cheap to get another ticket and certainly not worth getting arrested for.

[aikoaiko]

150. Oh, everyone can understand why she was upset, but it doesn't

explain her erratic behavior of throwing her cell phone, screaming and ranting, and refusing to calm down when confronted with police. Thats all Gotbaum.

When one doesn't like the way a ticketing agent is treating you have him/her call for a supervisor or you walk over to the customer service desk and rationally discuss it.

No one thinks US Air bumping her wasn't an irritating experiences, but implying that US Air was partially the cause of her death is ridiculous.

[pnwmom]

167. My husband travels frequently and he's never been bumped on a connecting

flight. Sometimes he's missed connecting with his second flight, and sometimes he's had to race to get there in the nick of time. But he's never raced to the second flight and then denied been boarding for being there "only" 25 minutes early.

[aikoaiko]

172. I bet there are a lot of people have not been bumped, whats your point?

As you've already mentioned, US Air bumped her 10 min early. Thats still pretty far away in the causal chain of her death.

[pnwmom]

173. I'm responding to the person who said that this was a common occurance.

I don't think it is. And it certainly shouldn't be. As bad as it is to be bumped on an originating flight, it is that much worse on a connecting flight, where you are in a strange city with no place to go.

[aikoaiko]

176. Yes and that person is me.

Well, I've never been bumped off of an originating flight, but I'm sure it happens. I often give myself extra time on connecting flights (even when there is a earlier connecting flight). If I do get there on time for the earlier connecting flight and its booked I ask to fly standby. I wait and as time gets closer and someone doesn't get to their connecting flight in a timely manner, I get their seat.

US Air, it appears, jumped the gun by 10-15 minutes. Thats it. Thats not really a big deal. Something to talk to a supervisor about or go complain to the customer service desk, but not something to get crazy about.

[pnwmom]

178. But that's not all they did. Carol Gotbaum did remain calm when they first

bumped her. It was only after she had waited another hour, and she was refused a place on the NEXT flight out, too, that she lost it. And the reason she was so upset was that another passenger was willing to give up his seat for her, but the airline employee pretended that that wasn't allowed, due to terrorism concerns. That wasn't true. They could have let her bump another passenger (willing or unwilling -- but they actually had a volunteer). But apparently they didn't want to fill out some paperwork, so they lied to her, and when she began to cry and beg -- they called the police.

Whoever was too lazy to fill out the paperwork bears some moral responsibility for his or her decision to call the police -- if not a legal one.

[aikoaiko]

179. I agree they are responsible for bumping her -- but not her death.

I'll bow out now, because we're just repeating the same points.

[pnwmom]

195. Actually, I agree. The police were responsible for her death,

because they took responsibility for her physical well-being at the moment they arrested her and took her into physical custody. After that, it was their job to keep her safe and they didn't.

[mondo joe]

119. I think you would benefit from understading what you agree to in a transaction.

Seriously.

[mainer]

128. It sounds like what we agree to is abuse...

And unexpected strandings and overnights in strange cities (for which we must pay) and missing important business meetings in destination cities.

And you hhink it's "okay" to be abused because "that's just what we have to put up with."

My gosh. Are any of you really Democrats? Does no one care about consumer rights anymore?

I fly many miles, internationally, on business. I am accepting of delays having to do with weather, mechanical issues, or other things beyond an airline's responsibility. I've lost luggage, endured hunger during cross-country flights, and missed major media events where I was the guest of honor. And I usually choose to fly coach because I'm a cheap Yankee.

But getting bumped from a connecting flight when I have my boarding pass in hand with a pre-assigned seat? That, thank god, has never happened to me.

[mondo joe]

129. If you think it's abuse, don't agree to it.

I care about regulations. I care about consumer rights. I care about being an informed consumer.

I'm not a big supporter ignorance.

[mainer]

132. How can you say you care about consumer rights?

when you don't care that airlines can screw you just because it's in the small print "We reserve the right to screw you"?

[mondo joe]

133. Consumer rights do not incude the right to do anything you want, nor the right

to be ignorant.

If you support consumer rights, be an informed consumer.

[mainer]

136. "the right to do anything you want?"

Like pay for a product, and expect it to be delivered?

So it's okay to be screwed, as long as we're informed we're going to be screwed. oh yeah, that's real consumer rights.

[mondo joe]

137. Know what you're getting into. An informed consumer is better off than an

ignorant one who thinks the corporation is their friend.

[pnwmom]

169. If you don't agree, you can't fly at all. Some choice. A better choice is to

to put more limits on bumping. They can start by penalizing airlines who deny boarding to people on connecting flights in strange cities who arrive at the gate within plenty of time for boarding. US airlines own stated policy is that she should have been there 15 minutes ahead of time for boarding. She was there 25 minutes ahead of time, and they knew she was in the airport. They had no business giving her seat away.

Think about it. The justification of bumping is that the airlines are afraid they'll lose money from customers who have bought tickets but don't use them. THAT JUSTIFICATION DID NOT EXIST IN HER CASE. Once she checked in in New York, they had all her money. They wouldn't lose anything, even if her seat on the next flight went out empty.

By bumping her, a checked-in passenger who they knew was ALREADY in the airport, they were able to make an EXTRA profit. That shouldn't be legal.

[pnwmom]

168. People only agree to the terms of the tickets, including bumping,

because the airlines have us over a barrel. They're the ones writing the contracts, after all.

But we do have recourse, because we can pressure the government to write legislation that provides better protection against the misuse of bumping by airlines. What protections we now have only came about because of pressure from dissatisfied customers. Maybe we need to exert more pressure, instead of spreading ourselves out on the floor like lambskin rugs and saying "please step on me."

[mvccd1000]

184. And then....

....when the airlines are flying planes at 60-70% capacity because they are not allowed to overbook any more, tickets will become so outrageously expensive that only rich people like the Gotbaums will have to worry about flying.

Not sure that's an ideal solution, either.

[pnwmom]

203. The airline's justification of bumping -- that they lose money when a passenger

doesn't show up to fly -- doesn't apply in Gotbaum's case. They knew she was checked in. They knew she was in the airport. And they knew that she arrived ready to board in plenty of time for their 15 minute rule. (Not thirty minutes, that's for check-in, which she'd already accomplished.)

Rethugs always argue that regulations will cost too much money. I'm not saying that bumping should never be allowed, but I'm sure we could tighten up the rules to prevent abuses as in this case.

[mvccd1000]

208. Gotcha. I don't know how we would do that, but...

... they can hire people who are smarter than I am to figure it out. :)

The problem (as I understand it), is that there is a relatively consistent average number of passengers who don't show up for any given flight.

Personally, I can afford to pay more for a ticket than I currently do, and I would happily do so in exchange for better service. I'll bet the Gotbaum family would have liked to have had that option, as well.

[mondo joe]

37. I don't see how they are any more responsible than a singer is if a very fragile person listens to

song about death and then murders people.

Gotbaum was clearly too fragile to manage a very ordinary and standard process. But that doesn't make the process a contributing factor to her death. Had some prior arrangement been made for special care and that was screwed up by the airline, then I'd say yes they were responsible in part. But I don't believe that was the case.

[pnwmom]

78. Whether or not they had a legal responsibility, which we will see,

I think they had a moral responsibility to treat her humanely. Instead they lied to her about why she was not allowed on the plane, and then refused an opportunity to put her on the next available flight. So they are at least morally culpable, if not necessarily legally so.

And the police are legally responsible for her death. Once they arrested her and put her into handcuffs, her life was in their hands. Instead of taking proper care of an obviously distraught person, they put her in a cell, unobserved, with the means to cause her death.

[mondo joe]

80. I'm a VERY unlikely defender of airlines. They treat people like shit, and are

able to do so because they have us over a barrel.

That said, I think morality is a personal matter, and the last place I suggest anyone look for morality is in a business transaction. Legal accountability, yes, morality no.

[Pachamama]

81. Atlas Shrugged....

Ayn Rand would be very proud of you.....

[mondo joe]

83. Not likely, since I have significant disagreements with Rand.

You don't know what you're talking about, again.

[Pachamama]

97. I don't? What specifically don't I know what I'm talking about? You don't think that Ayn Rand

would have agreed that morality be damned and that what you stated about the Corporate entity only having legal responsibility doesn't reflect one of Ayn Rand's views?

[mondo joe]

111. I'll explain it for you:

Anyone who expects the corporation to be MORAL is naive or dumb. That's the point of REGULATION. That's why I strongly fvor and advocate REGULATION.

[pnwmom]

103. They teach "business ethics" for a reason.

We might not "expect" morality in business transactions with others. But that doesn't relieve us of an obligation, in our own business transactions and in all transactions with other people, to try to treat them humanely and with respect. We are fellow human beings first, sellers and consumers somewhere else down the list.

[mondo joe]

114. Ethics and morality are not the same thing.

And though there is an expectation of ethical behavior, it's just an expectation.

If something matters enough, it should be legally required.

[Elspeth]

44. Almost 10% of their profit is OVERBOOKING?

Holy crap!

[pnwmom]

104. That number shocked me, too. There was a profit motive behind

what they did to her.

[onenote]

53. 676,407 bumped passengers didn't die, but somehow US Air is to blame for Gotbaum?

Last year, out of 555 million airline passengers, 676,408 were bumped by airlines. http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/67612.html

[Pachamama]

57. Out of the 676,407 passengers bumped, how many were alchoholics on their way to rehab?

:shrug:

[high density]

61. WHY did the family let her fly to rehab alone?

That seems like a VERY bad idea there.

[LeftyMom]

68. money, nobody to watch the kids, who knows?

I mean, if you're already giving up half your household income for a while so she can go to rehab, and footing the rehab bill, how are you to manage a second cross-country flight and somebody to watch the kids for a day or two as well?

[aikoaiko]

85. I think the gottbaum's are a fairly well-off family

[mondo joe]

86. From the NYT:

Ms. Gotbaum, a mother of three, lived on the Upper West Side. Her husband is Noah E. Gotbaum, an investor who has worked in Eastern Europe. Mr. Gotbaum is the son of Victor Gotbaum, who for many years was executive director of District Council 37 of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, the city’s largest alliance of public sector unions, and his former wife, Dr. Sarah C. Gotbaum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/nyregion/02gotbaum.html

[mondo joe]

63. If your state is such that you can't handle ordinary procedures, you need to make

special arrangements.

[mvccd1000]

64. Out of all alcoholics, how many had signs: "Fragile - drug abuser. Be nice to me?" nt

[aikoaiko]

75. If she had lived through her arrest, the first thing the rehab would have told her is....

....that she was responsible 100% for her actions and the consequences of those actions.

[high density]

60. Evidently!

According to some people on this thread, the gate works were supposed to act like shrinks and fix this crazy woman right up.

[JMDEM]

84. Hmmm....

No, I think the cops are totally responsible for this one.

Look -- it is estimated that ONE HALF of the suspects cops haul in to jail have serious mental disorders, such as bipolar disorder, psychosis, and schizoprhenia. The cops need training in how to deal at least somewhat humanely with these people. And I don't mean a "one size fits all" training of whipping out a taser.

[Hawaii Hiker]

99. USAirways sucks:

Then again, as someone who flies coach, most airlines United, AA, NWA, etc. aren't much better...Hell, last year on a United flight from LAX-Lihue (Kauai) which is nearly a 6-hr. flight, you had to BUY food, lol., no comp. meal.

What happened to that woman in Phoenix was a tragedy, I think TSA is largely responsible, as is USAirways....

I'd bet USAirways showed more empathy towards their own, remember this story...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17067903/

[Pachamama]

102. Wow! Maybe as part of Doug Parker's sobriety and penalty for DUI (CEO of US Scare) he could offer a

heartfelt apology to the Gotbaums and then initiate a thorough change of US Scare's policy of how it operates and treats passengers....

Wouldn't that be taking personal responsibility too? :shrug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

175. I'm sure Mr. Parker will have lots of fun on the witness stand...

when the wrongful death lawsuit gets to trial, not to mention the other counts of Deceptive Trade Practices and consumer law.

Bet their profits will go down after all the negative publicity from the wrongful death suit.

[mainer]

100. US Airways robbed Carol Gotbaum of her seat

She'd paid in full for her ticket.

She'd checked in for the first leg of her flight at JFK and therefore LAID CLAIM to her seat on that connecting flight. By checking her in at JFK, US Airways RELINQUISHED the product she'd bought -- a seat on a flight all the way to Tucson.

But in Phoenix, they stole that seat from her. It's as if a retail store had sold her a $500 pair of earrings, and then a few hours later ripped it off her ears and told her she'd have to be satisfied with an inferior pair. (And yes, landing a DAY LATER is indeed an inferior product, and not what they promised her.)

This is what steams me up about this whole story. Carol Gotbaum may have overreacted. She may have had her problems, poor women. But the bottom line is, US Airways sold her an airline seat all the way to Tucson, and then snatched it away from her halfway there.

It's one thing to be bumped from a flight at your point of departure -- at least you can go home and wait for a later flight. But she was in a strange city, without any accommodations, and they left her stranded.

[pnwmom]

105. And to add insult to injury, they lied about her being late -- she wasn't.

And they lied about not being able to put her on the next flight due to terrorism rules. Nothing would have prevented them from bumping the willing volunteer on the next flight except a little paperwork. But apparently they were too lazy to be inconvenienced.

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. That seems so characteristic of your officialdom over there. Too many

numpties with too puch power over the public and too little obligation towards it. Though of course the problem ultimately lies deeper - in their wretched lost souls.

[LisaL]

205. That flight was at 1:13, according to the ariline. Not at 1:30, as

reported in some articles you provided. She arrived at 1:05. Which only leaves 7 minutes before the flight, not 25.

[Pavulon]

107. Pretty common, read the ticket jacket

happened to me many times. This is very common. You can be denied boarding or removed from an airplane at the discretion of the employees or crew of the airline.

Had she not flipped she would have eventually gotten a flight an on to her destination.

[mainer]

112. I fly many times every year -- it's never happened to me

I've never been bumped from a connecting flight. Besides which, if they take my luggage aboard the next flight, without me, isn't that against the law? (Unaccompanied luggage could have a bomb, you know!)

[Pavulon]

120. Oh, I have been screwed over

many times by pretty much all the domestic carriers. Being stuck in an international airport is the worst. It costs more to stay over , it costs more to re-book. Language can be a barrier. Even with refundable tickets it sucks.

But the mindset going in is that you are dealing with a large system populated with people who generally dont care about you feelings and emotions. They are cursed at regularly, and tire of taking shit from temperamental adults. So throwing a fit is pointless.

That seems to be an american thing. Never saw it in latin america or europe. People were annoyed but the whole yelling screaming sense of entitlement reaction to being screwed over seems to be more common here.

I flew 250K miles a year for 3 years and this stuff happens. Not as much as you would think, but it does happen.

[Joe Chi Minh]

144. ."People were annoyed but the whole yelling screaming 'sense of entitlement'

reaction to being screwed over seems to be more common here."

You seem to be desperately confused over this issue. 'Screwed over' implies a justification for a yelling, screaming entitlement reaction!

In Europe, even in the UK, relatively speaking, we are not habitually stressed out, as so many of you are. At least, to the same extent. Did you know that the World Health Care Organisation ranks the US, the richest country in the world, 72nd in the world for health care? 50 million, 1 in 6 can't afford health care, but are twice as likely to need emergency hospital treatment.

Perhaps you will rejoin that this woman was wealthy. Read this:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2007/01/happy_without_m.html

It seems that stress and misery are also produced and inflicted by materialism. Here perhaps, both in the woman's life and by courtesy of the airline. Corporations which make such large profits from the public have no excuse for not being able to cut any slack for afflicted paying passengers. I'm not talking about the wanton drunkenness of arrogant but otherwise healthy individuals raging at the staff. I'd happily seem them locked up for a week.

[Pavulon]

147. They had no idea she was unstable

It is a culture thing, I think. Germans for example seemed annoyed when a flight was canceled after being delayed for 3 hours. No one was yelling at the lady at the counter. Different reaction if NYC. Just an observation.

[Joe Chi Minh]

149. Stress. civilisation v. jungle. Sorry to be so brutal. I saw an airport reality TV kind of

progamme here in the UK in the increasingly feral UK, in which arrogant, loud-mouthed males raged about this and that, and eventually, long after I would have called them, the booking clerk would call in two security officers, who seemed more amused than anything. And they were anything but aggressive or even assertive. It would all blow over, as it did. True it was night-time and not very busy.

[mondo joe]

124. Unaccompanied luggage?

Are you serious?

Once it's checked in, it's checked in.

[aikoaiko]

110. Being bumped from a connecting flight is common.

Usually they wait longer to let a stand-by take the seat, but its not uncommon. As others have pointed out she arrived 25 min before the flight and US policy requests at least 15 min. Apparently they gave away her seat and/or closed the doors early.

[LisaL]

207. No. According to the airline, the flight was at 1:13. If she arrived at

1:05, that only left 7 minutes.

[mondo joe]

116. Sorry, but its not theft.

It's a standard business practice in air travel.

If she bought her ticket and they denied her any use of it and refused to refund her money it would be theft. That's not what happened.

[mvccd1000]

121. Well.....

.... she probably didn't have time to get a refund.

[mondo joe]

131. If anyone contributed to her death it might well be her therapist.

It doesn't sound like she was fit to travel on her own. If her therapist okayed it, he or she might bear some responsibility.

[mainer]

138. EU's passenger bill of rights:

At least in Europe, airlines pay for your hotel room, plus meals, plus cash. As usual, Americans are the losers.



Denied Boarding Compensation in the European Community
If you are bumped from a flight and your flight was either departing from an EU country, or if you were on an airline registered in the EU and your flight departed outside the EU for a destination within the EU, you would have the following rights:

reimbursement of the cost of the ticket within seven days or a return flight to the first point of departure or re-routing to the final destination;.
refreshments, meals, hotel accommodation, transport between the airport and place of accommodation, two free telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or emails;
compensation totalling:
- 250 euros for all flights of 1,500 kilometers or less;
- 400 euros for all flights within the European Community of more than 1,500 kilometers, and for all other flights between 1,500 and 3,500 kilometers;
- 600 euros for all other flights.

[Pavulon]

141. Thats all great on paper

in practice with BA it is not that easy. If you are late to a flight, if you are drunk, or do not comply with a regulation you will not be paid.

I have been through that. Eventually the refunded me money after causing me to miss a connector. However it was not immediate or easy.

[mainer]

145. If you're late, drunk, or noncompliant, that's one thing

But if you follow all the rules, American airlines will still give you a hard time.

At least the EU has SOMETHING on paper. We don't even have that.

[Pavulon]

148. Agree there

it would be nice to have something on paper. However not sure how much good it would do.

[dapper]

162. She had many choices....

She made the wrong choice to drink. Sickness or not.
She threw a fit.
She threw a cell phone.
When the "police" came, she resisted arrest.

While handcuffed she could have sat and waited, instead she tried to reposition? them and ended up choking herself to death.

We all know the stuff the airport puts us through and you should always be prepared to sit on the tarmac, have your flight cancelled or delayed, expect overbooking... it is your personal responsibility to be prepared.

While I know we all have opinions, my opinion is that we really can't fault the airline for the reaction this person took.. and the mistakes she continued to make up to her death.

Dap

[Mutineer]

177. Her husband made some bad choices too.

He let a woman that he would later describe as being "very very fragile" and even "suicidal" fly alone to a rehab facility. Rehabs will usually provide someone to escort you to a facility if a family member or friend won't or can't. This family clearly had the money to do that. I don't get the piling on of blame on the airline or the police. An autopsy ought to answer a lot of questions but I'd be willing to bet my 401K that this chick was drunk off her ass when all of this went down and probably self-medicating on top of that.

[shance]

182. How do we even know that Carole was an "emotionally fragile, vulnerable person"

Because "the media" tells us this? And because "their" witnesses tell us she was?

How about the woman was pissed as everybody else would be.

We play by the rules and airport security potentially tasers a woman to death and then covers it up along with the autopsy.

I can't see the fairness in that.

[mondo joe]

186. Her husbad described her as such, and even as suicidal.

And if she was heading into treatment she was in all likelihood in bad shape.

[LisaL]

206. Oh give me a break. Her own husband had said she was

alcohol abusive and suicidal.
She was flying to check herself into a rehab. That alone should give you a clue.

[electron_blue]

190. This is a very good distractor - it keeps people from looking harder at what happened to

her in jail. The real shocker is not 1) Carol being bumped or 2) her throwing a fit in a public place, but it is 3) that she died in jail choking on handcuffs.

[CarlWoodward]

199. For what it's worth

Here's US Airways response to the Washington Post column:

"There are substantial inaccuracies which are leading to unfortunate and misleading conclusions in A.L. Bardach’s Oct. 14 op-ed piece, “Why Flying Now Can Kill.” In the piece, Bardach attempts to link airline overbooking to the tragic death of Carol Anne Gotbaum, who died in police custody at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport Sept. 28.

Bardach’s premise, and many of her facts, are simply incorrect.

For example, Bardach states incorrectly that Mrs. Gotbaum did not get on her connecting flight to Tucson, even though, Bardach says, Mrs. Gotbaum arrived at the gate 25 minutes before departure. Actually, Mrs. Gotbaum arrived at Sky Harbor from New York at 12:18 p.m. and held a confirmed seat on a 1:13 p.m. connecting flight to Tucson. Her arrival gate was three gates away from the Tucson departure gate; however, she did not get to the Tucson gate until 1:05 p.m. for the 1:13 flight – after the door had closed and the jetbridge pulled from the airplane. (The police report, widely publicized on the Internet, mistakenly says the flight was due to depart at 1:30 – we’ve contacted Phoenix police to correct the report).

Airport employees at that point told Mrs. Gotbaum she could stand by for the 2:58 p.m. flight to Tucson. She arrived for that flight with someone else’s boarding pass, which was not accepted. As employees continued to try to find her a seat, she became extremely agitated. Police were called, and she died later in police custody at the airport.

We’re disappointed that Bardach is attempting to link Mrs. Gotbaum’s tragic situation with her own overbooking experience earlier this year. For the record, overbooking is a standard industry practice, in which airlines sell more seats on their flights to compensate for the historical number of no-shows for individual flights. As a rule, airlines do this accurately. According to the most recent Department of Transportation statistics, just 1.4 passengers out of 10,000 will find themselves involuntarily denied boarding because of overbooking on US Airways.

The overbooking issue, however, just does not apply to Mrs. Gotbaum. She did not get on the flight because she arrived after the flight had closed.

We have no interest – and frankly, no place – debating with Bardach or anyone else about who was “responsible” for Mrs. Gotbaum’s tragic death. This is an extremely painful and personal time for the Gotbaum family and that’s why we have refrained from commenting on this story to this point."

[alittlelark]

202. OMG - I didn't link US Airways to her death

I flew US Airways to NM and back this weekend. Leaving NM today I arrived at my gate 15 minutes before my flight and was told that my seat had been given away because I wasn't there on time - there were a few others in the same boat - we got a flight 3 hours later. One of the guys was PISSED. I just hung in the restaurant and read - no problem for me..... I had nothing critical to deal with.


But I have never been booted off a flight w/ 15 minutes remaining (or 10 min. for that matter...hell, even 5).