Stan Goff At Huffington Post: When Does The Lesser Evil Become Just Evil?

[Hissyspit]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/when-does-the-lesser-evil_b_70315.html

Stan Goff

When Does the Lesser Evil Become Just Evil?
Posted October 29, 2007 | 05:53 PM (EST)

House Resolution 1955 must have been numbered to reflect the rebirth of the House Un-American Activities Committee, that was flailing in its McCarthyite abuse of US citizens that year after McCarthy's vicious anticommunist burlesque a year after Joseph Nye Welch rebuked McCarthy publicly during one of his Congressional show trials.

The revival of these witch hunts is not being headed up by Republicans, but by Democrat Representative Jane Harmon of California's 36th District. So much for the mythical Republican threat. As always, when it goes to shit, Democratic operatives will blame the neo-cons, or whomever, and self-absolve. Those bad, bad authoritarian Republicans!

Let me remind readers that no President in the last seven decades has had a more devastating effect on the African American community -- the greatest captive demographic of this lesser-evil scam -- than Bill Clinton, whose "crime bill" facilitated the incarceration of hundreds of thousands of Black, non-violent offenders who were already facing the perils of ubiquitous prosecutorial misconduct, bigoted judges and juries, and vast sentencing disparities.

Read Harmon's Orwellian masterpiece... and weep. The Dems are showing freaked-out Suburbia that they can wipe their ass with the Constitution just as well as any Republican, if it will just stop all that "violent radicalization." And the women in the men's club are proving they can be just as mean and asinine as any man.

Hardly any Democrat is challenging the recent Bush administration propaganda that Iran's government is producing and distributing weapons for Iraqi resistance fighters.

- snip -

Here is what we should be telling them, instead of holding out the perennial hope that this "lesser evil" will somehow show us a difference.

Tell them they can all go straight to hell.

I'll vote Kucinich in the primary. Likely as not, that will be my last vote above the state level. And then I'll tell people to resist, resist, resist... and Congresswoman Harmon can investigate us for our "violent radicalizations."

MORE

[babylonsister]

1. Rec'd. I don't blame Goff for being angry. nt

[Skidmore]

2. K&R

Enough is enough. And I've been beyond enough for several months now. I'm angry--white hot angry. The great blows dealt to this nation by * and the last Republican congress have been compounded by the portion of the Democratic party that believes playing by Republican rules and mimicing their language is the way to see change.

[Carolina]

3. K&R

[cali]

4. Oh, please.

He's essentially saying that African-Americans are stupid for supporting Clinton. How condescending can you get?

And there's so much simple minded dogmatism in that piece, it's scarcely worth the bandwidth to read it.

He's actually saying that Bill Clinton has had a more devastating effect on African-Americans than any President in the last seventy years, in the face of repuke presidents who have done all they can to increase the racial divide and disenfranchise black voters? And where the fuck does he think bigoted judges, at least on a federal level, come from? I'm no big Clinton fan, but this is just standard issue, right off the Counterpunch template, bullshit.

And he says:

"They say that the truth is the first casualty of war. It's also the first casualty of Democratic political campaigns... the exceptions this time being a few like Kucinich and Cindy Sheehan"

Sheehan, Mr. Goff, is not a democratic candidate for anything.

Yes, HR 1955 sucks, and Jane Harmon does too, but this is essentially a hit piece on democrats and contains inordinate amounts of bullshit.

[HamdenRice]

7. No, he's saying what African American political analysts have been saying for years

It's bizarre that you would interpret him as saying Black people are stupid. What we've been saying for years is that because we are to the left of the Democratic Party, and the Republicans offer absolutely nothing, we have no choice but to vote for the Democrats -- or stay home in protest.

That means that the party does not have to deliver anything to us. For years Black politiicans and analysts have been trying to figure out an alternative way of interacting with the party.

[cali]

8. you don't provide any links that back up your statement

African American analysts agree with Goff that Clinton did more damange to the African American community than any other US President in the last 70 years.

And I disagree that the democratic party hasn't delivered ANYTHING to the African American community. Which party has historically supported affirmative action? I'm not saying it's enough, but it's not nothing either.

And are you claiming that the African American community as whole is to the left of the dem party? Seems that in some ways they are, and in other ways they're to the right of the party. The African American community isn't a homogenous whole. Like any other group,there's a diversity of opinion

[HamdenRice]

9. Why not try to learn how to read before you try to debate?

1. I did not mention anything about the "more damage" comment. Please take a refresher course in reading. I notice in many of your posts this is a really severe deficit.

2. I did not say that the "democratic party hasn't delivered ANYTHING." I said they don't have to deliver. They do at times, but our influence is less than it should be given our importance to the party's base and the fact that we are the most reliable block.

3. I am not "claiming" that the African American community is to the left of the party. I'm stating a fact that has been demonstrated on virtually every poll. Do you know of any other voting block that votes Democratic in 80-90% numbers? While obviously every community is diverse, in statistical terms that represents a consensus, doesn't it? Look at polls on the war, defense spending, social programs, and any other Democratic policies and show me a voting block that is as progressive as counter evidence.

Most of all, please learn to read carefully and try not to play stupid word games when debating on line.

[cali]

10. Let's review: What I objected to was Goff's statement

that Clinton had done more damage to the African American Community than any President in the past 70 years. That's why I stressed that statement in my post to you. Really, not that hard to figure out.

Here's what you said:

" No, he's saying what African American political analysts have been saying for years
It's bizarre that you would interpret him as saying Black people are stupid. What we've been saying for years is that because That means that the party does not have to deliver anything to us. and the Republicans offer absolutely nothing, we have no choice but to vote for the Democrats -- or stay home in protest.

That means that the party does not have to deliver anything to us. For years Black politiicans and analysts have been trying to figure out an alternative way of interacting with the party.


Got that? You said that Goff was pointing out the same thing that African American political analysts have been saying for years. I was making a point, by referring back to EXACTLY what Goff said, not some bizarre interpretation of yours of what he said.

Oh yeah, and then you said this:

That means that the party does not have to deliver anything to us.
So it's hardly an unreasonable interpretation to read that as you believing that the dems don't actually deliver anything to the the African American community. Perhaps you could learn to write? It helps to be precise.

And no, the fact that African Americans vote for dems in such large numbers does not de facto mean that they're progressive. Look at polls about various social issues, for example. And by that I mean gay issues and abortion.

Oh, and I believe Jews vote for dems in percentages close to that of the African American community. They also opposed the war in higher numbers than any other ethnic group. Does that mean that Jews are as Progressive as African Americans? Or does it mean it's silly to make these kinds of blanket statements? I vote for the latter. BTW, you counter your own argument about this by stating that African Americans often vote dem because they have no where else to go.

It's easy- and cheap, to try and smear someone's argument by telling them in a juvenile fashion that they need to learn how to read, or that they're playing word games.

[noamnety]

13. question for you, cali

What do you think would be a fair critique of Clinton's incarceration policy on African Americans? Do you think it had a devastating effect on the community?

(Trying to get at whether you think it's just a matter of degrees, that Stan was too harsh in his assessment, or whether you are resistant to the idea that Clinton's policies caused any harm to the community - whether you are unwilling to critique him at all, you know?)

[cali]

14. Yes, I think it's had a deleterious affect on the

African American community and others. I'm not even a great Clinton admirer, and man, I've criticized him on everything from his lousy judgement re playing into repuke hands, to his Welfare reform bill and DOMA. I think Goff was not only overstating things though, but grossly overstating things, and doing what I consider the typical Counterpunch shit of mercilessly bashing dems and actually giving pukes a pass. I wonder at the motivation of those who do that.

[noamnety]

17. I suspect his motivation

is that he feels some people need a bit of a wakeup call to recognize that the democrats in fact do not always have the general public's interests at heart - at home or abroad.

I know I have some frustration with people who think Bush has been awful for the Iraqis (and yes, of course he has been) - but don't comprehend that Clinton's policies killed over a million Iraqis as well. And as someone who took part in US invasions under democratic presidents, he has first hand knowledge of democrats' willingness to support death squads.

That's not a matter of giving republicans a pass - I'd be shocked if you saw him advocate cutting them any slack - but it's a matter of refusing to continue to give democrats a pass, and acknowledging that there really is no such thing as a kinder gentler genocide, and maybe there is no such thing as kinder gentler racist policies.

[HamdenRice]

19. There is absolutely no point arguing with you

You want to argue with a strawman of your own creation, not with my post. You are notorious throughout DU for this. I'm not going to waste my time pointing out that once again, you are making up a position to argue against.

When you learn the difference between "doesn't have to" and "never does," then we can perhaps have a rational discussion.

I'll leave you with this example:

"Because of lax enforcement of jaywalking laws by the police, I don't have to cross the street at the crosswalk, but sometimes I do."

"I never cross the street at the crosswalk."

When you can comprehend the logical difference between those statements, send me a pm and we'll resume this discussion.

[kenfrequed]

20. This is my experience as well

This is a good article. I think some serious challenges ahve been put forth at the front running candidates.

And you are right, I have had bad experiences with a lack of logic by certain posters as well.

[cali]

22. I have no interest in discussing matters with you either

after this. You twist things and you rely on such bullshit as "you're notorious throughout DU".

I'll let my posts in this thread speak for themselves. I'm not the one erecting straw dogs or playing word games.

I wasn't arguing with you initially, and I should have known better than to attempt to interact with you on any meaningful level. I responded to what the Goff piece said. You seemed to find it imperative that you rush in and completely misinterpret what I wrote.

And I certainly have no interest whatsoever in playing your cutsie little games or sending you a pm. Period.

[Cha]

16. Thank you, for furthering the

discussion on Stan Goff's piece..I had no idea that was part of clinton's legacy. Just started politics in 2000(a little late but it's been a wild 7 years).

It's like Stan says .."When Does The Lesser Evil Become Just Evil?"

Wouldn't it be cool if we could eventually have our own Party and not have to pick up the crumbs from those ON The Table?

[mmonk]

5. 9/11 commission Harmon.

I could have told you.

[Cha]

15. I remember making some

disparaging comment about jane harmon's actions a couple a years back and getting scolded on DU because.."she's a dem!".. What do I believe..my sense of logic or jane harmon's version of dino?

[robertpaulsen]

23. Well, well, well.

I thought that name sounded familiar!

Ever hear about Oil Shockwave?

September 1, 2005 1030 PST (FTW) – On August 17th, little more than a week before Hurricane Katrina captured our attention, Securing America’s Energy (SAFE) and the National Commission on Energy Policy (NCEP) held their third Oil Shockwave event in three months in Torrance, California. Torrance was appropriately chosen as it is home to 36% of California’s refining capacity and is home to both LA International airport and much of Southern California’s aerospace industry. Dubbed an “oil crisis simulation,” Oil Shockwave addressed the precarious nature of U.S. oil dependence via mock cabinet meetings wherein both current and former government officials played roles as key cabinet members, discussing how to advise the president in the midst of an escalating energy crisis caused by terrorism or political unrest – not, as the title of the event might suggest, problems caused by a dwindling supply of oil.

This was a big-budget event, complete with simulated and slickly produced CNN-like broadcasts of developing news and carefully scripted roles for each of the key participants. Perhaps most revealing was the fact that this was not an event aimed at the general public. The live audience of about 100 was mostly local government officials and executives of major corporations. This suggested to FTW that these events have been early-warning fire drills for specific key localities throughout the nation as the first big hits from Peak Oil draw near.

The actors at the Torrance event included: R. James Woolsey, former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (as National Security Advisor); Rand Beers, President of the Coalition for American Leadership & Security and former Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Combating Terrorism (as Secretary of Homeland Security); Robert E. Grady, Managing Partner, Carlyle Venture Partners, the first of two U.S. venture funds of the Carlyle Group (as Secretary of Treasury); Congresswoman Jane Harman of California’s 36 th Congressional District (as Secretary of Defense); Mary Nichols, Director of the Institute of the Environment at UCLA and former Assistant Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (as Secretary of Energy); Matt Peterson, President and CEO of Global Green USA, and member of the Council on Foreign Relations (as Secretary of the Interior); Dr. Steven Spiegel, Director of the UCLA Burkle Center Mideast Regional Security Program (as Director of National Intelligence); and Pete Wilson, former governor of California (as Secretary of State).

Harman, who was the host of the event in her congressional district boasts some other interesting credentials. She is the ranking Democratic member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) and her district is also home to 36% of all refineries in the state of California. Harman was also sitting on the dais in 1996 when FTW Publisher/Editor Mike Ruppert had his now-infamous confrontation with then-CIA Director John Deutch over the agency’s involvement in drug smuggling into the US.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/090105_oil_shockwave.shtml

Interesting to watch her parroting the words of PNACer James "World War IV" Woolsey.

[JohnyCanuck]

6. K&R

[leftchick]

11. I LOVE Stan!

thank you for this.

[G_j]

12. he's right

hurts doesn't it?
I was very aware of the prison industrial complex growing by leaps and bounds at the time.
The police state didn't start with Bush.

[leftchick]

18. K&R!

.

[T.Ruth2power]

21. Don't be sleepy America

K&R