The Grand Delusion By JOEL S. HIRSCHHORN

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.counterpunch.org/hirschhorn11102007.html

Weekend Edition
November 10 / 11, 2007

A Conspiracy of Two Parties
The Grand Delusion
By JOEL S. HIRSCHHORN

With an endless, futile and costly Iraq war, a stinking economy and most Americans seeing the country on the wrong track, the greatest national group delusion is that electing Democrats in 2008 is what the country needs.

Keith Olbermann was praised when he called the Bush presidency a criminal conspiracy. That missed the larger truth. The whole two-party political system is a criminal conspiracy hiding behind illusion induced delusion.

Virtually everything that Bush correctly gets condemnation for could have been prevented or negated by Democrats, if they had had courage, conviction and commitment to maintaining the rule of law and obedience to the Constitution. Bush grabbed power from the feeble and corrupt hands of Democrats. Democrats have failed the vast majority of Americans. So why would sensible people think that giving Democrats more power is a good idea? They certainly have done little to merit respect for their recent congressional actions, or inaction when it comes to impeachment of Bush and Cheney.

One of the core reasons the two-party stranglehold on our political system persists is that whenever one party uses its power to an extreme degree it sets the conditions for the other party--its partner in the conspiracy--to take over. Then the other takes its turn in wielding excessive power. Most Americans--at least those that vote--seem incapable of understanding that the Democrats and Republicans are two teams in the same league, serving the same cabal running the corporatist plutocracy. By keeping people focused on rooting for one team or the other, the behind-the-scenes rulers ensure their invisibility and power.

The genius of the plutocrats is to create the illusion of important differences between the two parties, and the illusion of political choice in elections. In truth, the partner parties compete superficially and dishonestly to entertain the electorate, to maintain the aura of a democracy. Illusion creates the delusion of Americans that voting in elections will deliver political reforms, despite a long history of politicians lying in campaigns about reforms, new directions and bold new policies. The rulers need power shifting between the teams to maintain popular trust in the political system. Voting manifests that trust--as if changing people will fix the system. It doesn't.

So voters become co-conspirators in the grand political criminal conspiracy. Those who vote for Democrats or Republicans perpetuate the corrupt, dishonest and elitist plutocracy that preferentially serves the interests of the Upper Class and a multitude of special interests--some aligned with the Republicans and some with the Democrats. Voting only encourages worthless politicians and those that fund and corrupt them.

Public discontent leads to settling for less through lesser evil voting rather than bold thinking about how to reform the system to get genuine political competition and better candidates and government.

[Bolo Boffin]

1. "the greatest national group delusion is that electing Democrats in 2008 is what the country needs."

Do we really need Freeper crap like this at DU?

Isn't it against the rules?

http://www.democrats.org/a/party/stand.html

The Democratic Vision

The Democratic Party is committed to keeping our nation safe and expanding opportunity for every American. That commitment is reflected in an agenda that emphasizes the security of our nation, strong economic growth, affordable health care for all Americans, retirement security, honest government, and civil rights.
Guiding Principles

Our Plan
We have a bold new direction for a secure America. We seek: 1) Honest Leadership & Open Government, 2) Real Security, 3) Energy Independence, 4) Economic Prosperity & Educational Excellence, 5) A Healthcare System that Works for Everyone, and 6) Retirement Security. Learn more.

The 50-State Strategy
The Democratic Party is committed to winning elections at every level in every region of the country, and we're getting started right now with a massive effort to fund organizers on the ground in every state. The ultimate goal? An active, effective group of Democrats organized in every single precinct in the country.

Party Platform
The Democratic Party has a long and proud history of representing and protecting the interests of working Americans and guaranteeing personal liberties for all. One of the places we articulate our beliefs is in the Party's National Platform, adopted every four years by the Delegates at the National Convention.

Charter and Bylaws
Essentially, the Charter and Bylaws is the constitution of the Democratic Party. It outlines the structure of the Party organization, and the relationship among the National Convention, the National Committee, and other Party organizations or operations. The Charter and Bylaws was last amended by the Democratic National Committee at its December 5, 2005 meeting.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the Republicans. :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

2. It's the Duopoly, Stupid!

Well yes it is. Now what?

[Bolo Boffin]

3. "Those who vote for Democrats or Republicans perpetuate"

...Those who vote for Democrats or Republicans perpetuate the corrupt, dishonest and elitist plutocracy"

I can't believe this is getting recommendations at Democratic Underground. Does everybody here understand that we are trying to get Democratic candidates elected?

[Lerkfish]

121. its an essay that makes a salient point, looking at the current situation

if discussions like this are not allowed, then open discussion is stifled. I thought only republicans were afraid to take a look in the mirror.

[Bolo Boffin]

146. It's an essay that makes a cynical point to sell books to the politically cynical

It's corrosive to real grassroots activism. It's an idiotic argument that should be roundly dismissed at a site dedicated to political activism.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

165. Being CYNICAL of the politcal game, as it exists, is PRECISELY what inspires grassroots.

What's with the extreme defensiveness,...over politics, the extraordinary dysfunctional politics that plagues this nation?

:shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

167. Paul Wellstone rebukes you. n/t

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

140. not unusual

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

143. ARE YOU CALLING ME A "paid shill" Blashyrkh?

or the guy that wrote this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/03/09_walmart.html

[Blashyrkh]

144. Neither of you.

I merely thinking out loud concerning the motivations of the most vocal objector in this thread.

[seemslikeadream]

145. oh forgive me I read that wrong!

:hi:

[Blashyrkh]

147. No problem. I commend you for posting something that a lot of people are thinking.

If people knew they weren't in a tiny minority ready to be savaged by the "mainstream", I think more people would be prepared to speak out.

[Bolo Boffin]

148. This entire subthread is a violation of DU rules and has been alerted.

As far as the accusations of paid shill against me, I tell you quite openly and honestly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw3Z8Oa7E3Y

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

161. Reported.

[Blashyrkh]

168. I suspect you caught a few of your own, considering your debating "prowess".

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

150. Your post will probably get deleted but please repost

your thoughts I appreciated them

[Blashyrkh]

162. I will attempt to re-word my post into a more general observation and repost a thread.

[seemslikeadream]

4. Dennis Kucinich is the only Democrat running for President

who want bush and cheney impeached

And that's why I am voting for him, he seems to be the only real Democrat running

[Bolo Boffin]

5. And why do I care what someone attacking the Democratic Party says?

Remind me again.

ETA: The True Scotsman fallacy will get you nowhere. You are attacking the Democratic Party by posting this article. Why?

[seemslikeadream]

6. I could care less what YOU care about

[Bolo Boffin]

7. Yellow Dog Democratic Party member here

One grandfather a three-war vet, the other an organizer for the IBEW, and I'm gay. I hit the Democratic trifecta and I'm proud to be here.

And I'm proud to stand up to people who piss on my party and tell me they care about it.

Like you.

[seemslikeadream]

8. I want theREAL Democratic party

not the DLC

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Again with the true scotsman fallacy.

Somebody posting articles that attack the Democratic Party is part of the problem in 2008, not the solution.

ETA: And when you're talking to me, you ARE talking to a member of the REAL Democratic Party. Keep that in mind.

[seemslikeadream]

10. One grandfather a three-war vet,

and what would he say about how the Dems are letting bush and cheney get away with war crimes

[Bolo Boffin]

12. I didn't say that we're always perfect.

I'm saying that there is a great deal of difference in the two parties, and people who post otherwise here are LYING.

[seemslikeadream]

14. Please tell me what Feinstein and Schumer did

is good for the Democratic Party

[Bolo Boffin]

18. Which time?

Have they made mistakes? Yes, they're human.

Have they worked time and again to frustrate the Republicans and get some real change for the people? Yes, because they're Democrats.

[Lerkfish]

124. what real change have they effected?

no really, honest question here.

[Lerkfish]

123. how does supporting Kucinich piss on the party? Isn't Kucinich a democrat?

:shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

149. Who the hell do you think said something as idiotic as that?

Because it sure as hell wasn't me.

[Lerkfish]

122. he makes a valid point: Kucinich is the only democrat running.

Kucinich's platform is the only one that is consistent with what the majority of democratic voters want. Therefore, he is being truly representative of the voters.

the real question is: if you attack him for supporting a democrat like Kucinich, then aren't YOU in the wrong forum?

[Bolo Boffin]

151. BULLSHIT.

That type of argument is completely false.

And I have attacked NO ONE for supporting Dennis Kucinich. It has been a consistent tactic of some here to make this an argument about Kucinich instead of what I'm arguing against - the idiotic position that there's no difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. That is a scandalous LIE, and shame on the people making it who then scurry to hide behind Dennis Kucinich.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

11. We must take back our Democratic Party

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2250290&mesg_id=2250290

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Go start your own and leave ours alone.

Are you sure you're voting for Kucinich, or is Ron Paul more your speed?

[seemslikeadream]

15. I said Kucinich because he is the only real opposition to the Republicans

[Bolo Boffin]

16. Another lie cooked up in some Republican think tank to split the party.

And as long as I'm here, it's not going to work and it's not going to go unchallenged.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Lie?

Please tell me what Democrat running is for impeachment of bush and cheney for war crimes?

[Bolo Boffin]

22. Impeachment is not the sole factor in determining "opposition to Bush and Cheney."

And how you think you can argue that is beyond me.

[seemslikeadream]

25. So let them get away with starting the war with Iraq and killing

how many soldiers is it now? How many Iraqis?

[Bolo Boffin]

28. You must rid yourself of this false dichotomy you keep casting the world in.

Nobody said anything about letting them get away with it.

[seemslikeadream]

29. Pray tell how are you going to make them account for their crimes?

[Bolo Boffin]

30. By voting in Democrats to clean up yet another Republican mess.

And the dirt will all come to light.

[seemslikeadream]

33. Oh right like Bill Clinton did?

[Bolo Boffin]

34. Another attack on a Democratic president.

*sigh*

[seemslikeadream]

35. No just the truth bolo just the truth

greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Is that what will get just greater bipartisanship with Repubilcans? That's not what I want


http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

[Bolo Boffin]

37. And what did it get him? Impeached.

Sounds like a mistake to me.

[seemslikeadream]

38. Yea a mistake

[leftchick]

67. um, we tried that in 2006

how is that working for you? Only Dennis has th guts to call for impeachment hearings. Other than a few hearings into corruption by house dems the rest of the last year has been abject FAILURE in accountability for the BFEE crimes.

[Bolo Boffin]

80. And now we need to elect a President that will give the slim majorities in Congress teeth

And not spread claptrap articles and books about how the Democrats and the Repukes are all alike.

And you are GROSSLY understating the accomplishments of this Congress.

http://www.speaker.gov/pdf/ND1107.pdf

NONE of that would have happened in a Republican-controlled Congress. Get real.

[leftchick]

84. there is one person here grossly OVERestimating their 'accomplishments'

but go ahead.....



I prefer REALITY!

[Bolo Boffin]

88. Another attack on the Democratic Party.

Small wonder Dennis Kucinich is doing so poorly, if this is the true caliber of his supporters.

[Greyhound]

39. OK, which Presidential candidate, excluding DK, voted against the IWR?

Voted against the "Patriot Act"? The "bankruptcy reform" bill? Medicare part 'D'? The, god knows how many, funding bills to keep the illegal slaughter of tens of thousands of Iraqis going? The nominations of Roberts or Scalito? The MCA? Etc. etc. etc....

[Bolo Boffin]

41. I'm not saying, don't support Dennis Kucinich

I'm saying, don't attack the Democratic Party. There is a difference.

[Greyhound]

47. When the party, as in its leadership/decision makers, has been captured by

corporatists which have traditionally been relegated to the republik party, there ceases to be any significant distinction between them. Neither party represents the interests of the people of this nation any longer, if they ever did.

[Bolo Boffin]

49. And THAT is attacking the Democratic Party, and THAT is not supportive of the aims

of Democratic Underground.

[OnyxCollie]

69. You're supporting the symbol, not the ideal.

It's like wrapping yourself in the flag and burning the Constitution. Blind nationalism and dogmatism are deterrents to critical thinking. Pelosi, Feinstein, et al need to be replaced by elected officials who will carry out the aims you support.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[BeHereNow]

83. May I hug you now?

:hug:
EXACTLY so.
BHN

[Lerkfish]

128. POST.OF.THE.THREAD

thank you.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

51. CORPORATISTS

It's your party, it's my party and we have the right to expect to have what the party stood for once upon a time.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

152. Reported.

[Lerkfish]

126. oh, you've made your point alright: ritual shaming of points of view you disagree with

but here's where the logic breaks down: SLAD is pointing out that the DLC democrats are owned by the same masters as the republicans, and you are accusing him of being from a republican think tank to point out what is obviously and provably true:

so, to try to drown him out on this, wouldn't YOUR behaviour, logically, be more consistent with a republican think tank response?


I"m just sayin.

[Bolo Boffin]

153. Again you misrepresent my argument. You'd best quit while you're behind.

I said the argument came from a right wing think tank, like as not. SLAD's just repeating it.

[brentspeak]

141. Uh, yeah, sure.

So how do you explain John Edwards, or even Christopher Dodd? They have as much in common with the Republicans as a dolphin does to an automobile.

[seemslikeadream]

17. It's my party it's been my party since the day I voted for

[Bolo Boffin]

21. Eugene McCarthy, who supported Nader in 2000.

Yeah.

[seemslikeadream]

23. Eugene didn't support Nader in 1968

[Bolo Boffin]

24. No, he did so in 2000, the year Nader helped get Bush into office. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

26. That's bullshit

[magellan]

64. You're really beyond the pale

Was seemslikeadream supposed to know when voting in 1968 that her candidate would support Nader in 2000?

And just for your info, votes received in Florida, 2000:

Patrick J. Buchanan -- 17,412 Reform
Harry Browne ----------- 16,102 Libertarian
John Hagelin ------------ 2,274 Natural Law/Reform
Howard Phillips --------- 1,378 Constitution

Any one of them could also be blamed for Gore's shortfall of 537 votes -- and you'd still be wrong. Because you'd be ignoring the documented dirty tactics the Repubs used to steal FL, and all the work people have done since to try and bring them to justice.

[Bolo Boffin]

78. Didn't say that she should.

But knowing what we know now, she should know better than to wave him around...

...in an thread she started with an article that conflates the two parties misleadingly and in a way calculated to split this party...

...in an effort to establish her overriding concern for the Democratic Party.

[magellan]

89. The party's already split

...in case you hadn't noticed. There are those who support the status quo (or don't know any better), and those who want real change. Whether you acknowledge it or not, there are more and more Americans who don't feel they're adequately represented by the Democratic Party as it is today, or its lead candidates. Not because someone told them so, but because they feel it with what is being said and done by the Dems.

And btw, you DID imply that seemslikeadream was wrong for voting in 1968 for someone who supported Nader in 2000, and you went on to question her loyalties in general by suggesting she might really like to vote for Ron Paul. There's no call for that. Argue on the points or not at all. You only weaken your own credibility otherwise.

[Bolo Boffin]

93. Then, bye. Don't let the door... *slam* n/t

[magellan]

96. Typical.

Don't say no one told you so next year when the voters stay home or vote 3rd party. Because that's what your general attitude of "party purity no matter what" is guaranteeing...not to mention the ruination of the Democratic Party as it turns ever more towards the right to survive.

[Bolo Boffin]

97. Are you still here?

Why?

[magellan]

98. Because I don't take orders from you

That's why.

[Bolo Boffin]

99. Please point out a single order that I have given to you in the exchange above.

I double yellow dog dare you.

[magellan]

101. "Don't let the door slam" and then asking why I'm still here

...means you expected me to go at your dismissal. You don't like to be bothered with anyone who disagrees with you, do you?

[Bolo Boffin]

102. That wasn't an order. That was expresed concern for you

since you seemed to be leaving.

[BeHereNow]

103. LOL, YOU ARE SO FULL OF IT!

CONCERN?
PAH-LEEZE.
BHN:puke:

[magellan]

104. Do I?

Pray tell, what do you mean?

[Bolo Boffin]

105. Well, you said the party was split.

So somebody's going somewhere.

[BeHereNow]

106. Pathetic...

Take your "toys" and go find another play pen.
DU is for thinking adults.

BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

109. Seriously, do I know you?

You certainly do seem to be fascinated with me. Perhaps we have met under different names somewhere before?

Although I sign up as boloboffin everywhere I go (unless I use my actual name, Joseph Nobles).

[BeHereNow]

110. Bite your tongue!

I shudder at the thought of knowing you beyond
the confines of this board.
I DO know SEVERAL DUers in person and have actively sought
their friendships off of DU over the years.

Trust me, you should have no fear of that happening between us.
BHN

On edit- meant as a reply to "Do I know you?"

[Bolo Boffin]

111. Yes, anyone who would make a judgment of a person off a few Internet messages

is no one I would want to ever meet myself.

[BeHereNow]

113. Trust me, the number is WAY over a FEW.

I've read your posts to my friends on DU for some time now.
My assessment of you is based on more that a "few" of
your vitriolic posts.

BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

115. What's that line that Tommy Lee Jones said in "The Fugitive"?

I don't care.

[BeHereNow]

112. Reply to #125

Just to clarify, assuming the question was
directed at me.
If not, the sentiment stands anyway.
BHN

[magellan]

107. I'm a Kucinich supporter

I can stick with the Dems and vote for real change. When I can't any longer, you'll be the first to get my big good-bye. Promise.

[Bolo Boffin]

108. When you learn the difference between supporting Dennis Kucinich

and lumping the Democratic Party into a pile with the Republicans, I'll be the first in line to welcome you back.

[magellan]

116. Aren't interested in my vote, are you?

But I don't need to ask. You treat people like me the same way the Democratic Party Leadership does: get in line and don't complain, or we don't want to associate with you. That's essentially what they've said to Kucinich, too.

Keep taking people for granted. Keep pressing them to accept what they find unacceptable, and turning your back on them if they won't. Sadly, this seems to be the new definition of "democratic".

[Bolo Boffin]

117. Jiminy Christmas. Project much?

SLAD posted an article attacking the Democratic Party, and then ran and hid behind Dennis Kucinich. Now you've convicted me of every sin of the Democratic Party leadership you can gin up.

No. I am not interested in your vote. It comes at too high a price.

[magellan]

119. Projection? Hardly

My opinion of you is based solely on our discussion and how you treated seemslikeadream. Suck it up.

And funny enough, it isn't the first time a party purity Dem has told me they aren't interested in my vote. Rather arrogant behavior from people who want to win votes. That, too, is nothing new....

[Lerkfish]

130. good gawd, do you EVER shut up?

I'm working my way down this thread, and you never freakin make any new points. you just shout shriller and shriller every time.

[Bolo Boffin]

154. Not when I'm right.

You can bet your bottom dollar on that.

Especially when you run around completely misrepresenting what I'm saying. Then that really gets my dander up.

[Bolo Boffin]

27. Q: When McCarthy didn't get the nomination, did you then vote for Humphrey? n/t

[Lerkfish]

125. needless personal attack:

the question is, why do you need to attack someone for supporting Kucinich?
:shrug:

further, why the ritual shaming, post after post, for valid criticism of the democratic leadership or lack thereof?

[Bolo Boffin]

155. Reported.

[BeHereNow]

174. Nah-nah-nah...

What are you, like, twelve years old or something?
"Reported"
"Reported"

Good lord.
And you wonder that we discuss your sorry ass in private?

BHN

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

19. Yes. Well, damn straight I'd vote for the less of the two evils every damn day.

I'll put the lessor in charge,...hell I'd give them complete power over this administration and its whores!!!

At least, I have some hope of getting back on track towards social and economic democracy because, if the Democrats pull all the strings, I could easily threaten their power.

The Republican party is a very concise enemy to the future of my children because it has integrated with the unitary executive. The Democratic party has not lost its soul,...maybe, its heart,...but, NOT its soul. I can point to way too many Democrat Senators and Representatives that PROVE the soul is still intact.

[angstlessk]

31. WOW!!! go back to the 9/11 room you two!!!!

[seemslikeadream]

32. I am a Democrat and I did not post this, as some have accused me of

not being a Democrat. I WANT my party back. I WANT MY PARTY BACK! I don't want crimes to go unpunished. Do you know what happens when crimes go unpunished?

[Bolo Boffin]

36. So why are you posting articles saying that you've succumbed to a group delusion? n/t

[seemslikeadream]

40. Just because I post an article does not mean I agree with EVERYTHING

that is in the article. I posted because I want REAL opposition to the Republicans and Dennis is the only candidate that is

[Bolo Boffin]

42. You post an article attacking the Democrats as being the same as Republicans...

...in order to oppose the Republican party?

:rofl:

[Disturbed]

44. The Electoral System

The Electoral System

Repeal the 12th amendment, reforming the electoral college, standardizing party qualifications in the states, qualified and free access to public airwaves.

1.Uniform Ballot Access
2.Loosen Third Party Ballot Restrictions
3.Universal Voter Registration
4.Election Day Holiday
5.Equal Media Access/Debate Inclusion
6.Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)
7.Secure Voting Machines
8.Public Campaign Financing
9.Direct Popular Vote Election of the President
10.Congressional Representation

[Bolo Boffin]

46. Those all sound like good ideas. How do you think it enters into this discussion?

[seemslikeadream]

48. I want the Democratic Party to get back to it's roots

[Bolo Boffin]

50. You need to find a better way of doing it. n/t

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

54. . You need to find a better way of doing it?

pray tell how SHOULD I do it? Sit back and watch the media select our candidate?

[Bolo Boffin]

55. What did Paul Wellstone say over and over again?

"Organize. Organize. Organize."

How did he work in the Congress? He worked with the party, and he held to his principles.

THAT'S how you should do it, like Paul Wellstone.

[seemslikeadream]

56. That is exactly what I am doing

organizing support for Dennis

[Bolo Boffin]

57. NO. You are spliting the party like this.

Until you have something worth replacing the party with, you don't split the party.

[seemslikeadream]

70. Last time I looked Dennis was running

So if I spend my time showing the difference between him and the rest of the bunch, I'M SPLITTING THE PARTY?

[Bolo Boffin]

71. You are posting article that lump the two parties together.

That's not supporting the party, that's splitting it.

[seemslikeadream]

74. Why is that bolo? Why is it so easy these days to say there is no difference?

[Bolo Boffin]

75. Because English words have no power to resist being put into false statements. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

77. The Democrats have the Power to stop bush and cheney RIGHT NOW

and they are not

[Lerkfish]

132. ok, why don't you proffer a cogent argument to the contrary?

can you argue that the current democratic leadership has NOT given Bush everything he wanted thus far?

[BeHereNow]

58. That's right! WE ARE organizing...

FOR KUCINICH!
The true democrat.
The one NOT controlled by corporate paymasters...
Get it?
BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

59. NO. You are working to split the party by attacking it like this.

Try again.

[BeHereNow]

62. We are NOT attacking the party, we are TAKING IT BACK from the corporatists.

What part do you not understand?

BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

72. By posting and recommending articles like this, you ARE attacking the party.

What part of that do YOU not understand?

[seemslikeadream]

79. No we are attacking Democrats that are acting like Repubilcans

[Bolo Boffin]

87. YOU in this very thread posted an article that attacked the Democratic Party

Not individual candidates, but the entire party.

And now you're moving the goalposts with one true Scotsman fallacy after another.

[seemslikeadream]

63. We will NOT be driven OUT of the Democratic Party

[Bolo Boffin]

73. If you don't stop attacking it and start organizing within it, then yes, you will. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

76. You have no idea what I am doing in regards to electing Dennis

[Bolo Boffin]

81. I know what you are doing right here and now, and it's counterproductive. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

82. counterproductive to show that Dennis is the DIFFERENT from all the other Dem canidates

[Bolo Boffin]

90. That's not the only thing you're doing.

There isn't the first DAMNEDEST word about Dennis Kucinich in your OP.

Don't those goalposts hurt your shoulders?

[Lerkfish]

134. the OP was quoting someone else's essay,

man you need to up your reading comprehension.

[Bolo Boffin]

156. Without a word of disclaimer, and SLAD and I have history. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

169. Yea like you REALLY have to point that out?

pretty damn obivious wouldn't you say?

[Bolo Boffin]

170. Kisses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw3Z8Oa7E3Y

[seemslikeadream]

171. I worked out that link problem BTW

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=183024&mesg_id=183116

[Bolo Boffin]

172. And now having caught all the fish, you funnel them down to the dungeon.

Just like clockwork.

[seemslikeadream]

173. And you helped THANKS

[Lerkfish]

133. no, first you identify the problem.

then you organize to resolve it. If you refuse to identify the problem, you never solve it.
the problem is that the current dem leadership is NOT representing their constituents at all.

[Karenina]

43. Because Slad gets it

and you don't.

[Bolo Boffin]

45. OOOOOOOO

Slad posted an article that claims voting for the Democratic Party is a group delusion, but it doesn't apply to her because she's voting for a Democrat.

And she understands that, and I don't.

You're damned right I don't understand that. That's horseshit.

[BeHereNow]

60. We VOTED the "DEMS" into power- what have they done since? FUCKED us, that's what.

The ONLY consistent voice to point that out in OUR party?
DENNIS.
BHN

[cali]

68. I like Dennis. I'm voting for him in the primary

but to say he's the only realy dem in the party is what's delusional. I can think of a dozen dems who have accomplished more for this country than Dennis has.

and counterpunch is a piece of shit yellow journalism rag.

[Karenina]

61. YES, we will vote for Democrats.

And YES the entire system is FUBAR.

[BeHereNow]

65. Fubar is right and DENNIS is the ONLY Democrat to voice that fact and FIX it!

GOOOOOOOOO DK!
BHN

[Karenina]

66. HE IS ELECTABLE.

All of his TRUTHTELLING self!

[Lerkfish]

135. the point has been explained to you ad nauseum

just because you refuse to accept something does not make it untrue.

[Lerkfish]

131. because the essay MAKES A VALID POINT. where is your point? and is it valid?

all you're doing is trying your best to shout down a point of view you don't want anyone else to hear, and trying to get the thread locked in the process with that exact intent.

that's the way that a certain group works here: they shut down any opposing viewpoint.

why?

[Bolo Boffin]

157. The hell it does.

The Republicans no different than the Democrats? It's a damned lie. Karl Rove rejoices that progressives tell this lie to themselves.

[seemslikeadream]

85. how can you explain the position of Democratic leaders?

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/09/1455244

AMY GOODMAN: Explain the leadership's position and why you chose to do what you did this week.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: I think it’s very difficult to explain their position, because I don’t think their position is defensible. I think when you consider that our whole nation is at risk, our constitutional form of government has been undermined by lies, by illegal war, by massive debt, how can you explain the position of Democratic leaders?

I think that the American people and their response is becoming more and more powerful, and we’re seeing that there being rising discontent among Democrats in Congress about the direction that our leaders have said is not possible. I think that people want to see this administration held accountable. After all, what could be more important than having an opportunity to get to the truth of what happened in Iraq, that the war was based on lies; that over almost 4,000 of our brave young men and women who represent this country have lost their lives because of those lies; that over a million innocent Iraqis, noncombatants, civilians, have lost their lives because of those lies; that we will spend between one and two trillion dollars for this war, even borrowing money from China? And our whole domestic agenda is being capsized by this war. And the administration is preparing still to take us in another war against Iran, similarly lying about a cause for war. So what can be more important? Our country is at risk, and it’s time for our Democratic leaders to take a stand.

JUAN GONZALEZ: What do you say to those who will argue that even though they may agree with you on a lot of your concerns, that the impeachment process itself would drag out for so long that it may as well -- people should just move forward toward the elections and elect a new president?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Right, well, you think about that. You know, the administration will be in office for at least fourteen more months. They can cause a lot of damage in that time. They’re planning to attack Iran. When you think about the defense authorization budget including a provision that would retrofit Stealth B-2 bombers so they can carry 30,000-pound bombs, which would then be dropped on nuclear research labs, creating an humanitarian and ecological disaster, “What are we waiting for?” is the question, not “Why don’t we wait for the election?”

AMY GOODMAN: The other argument that the leadership has used is that they’re concerned about losing in a landslide vote against them, that that is bad strategically, Congressman Kucinich.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Since when does it become unfashionable to stand up for the Constitution, to stand up for our nation's laws, to stand up for international law, to stand up for moral law? Since when does it become inconvenient to take a stand that would help secure our democracy once again? I mean, we’re really -- it’s all at risk right now, and it’s time that the Democratic leadership exerted an effective influence. As a coequal branch of government, Congress cannot stand by and let this administration continue to undermine our Constitution. That’s why I introduced those articles of impeachment.

[BeHereNow]

91. "Since when does it become unfashionable to stand up for the Constitution?"

NOT one of the other candidates has even come close to
addressing this issue. Not ONE!!
Is ANY other issue as important?

BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

92. How pathetic: I'm pointing out your heinous article and you're trying to turn this into a Kucinich

thing.

What in your OP had anything to say about Dennis Kucinich? Nothing. You are calculatedly trying to convert your attack on the Democratic Party into another Kucinich war.

You're just transparent.

[BeHereNow]

94. No, it is YOU who are transparent.

WE HAVE seen your type on DU before.
BHN

[Bolo Boffin]

95. Yep. Yellow Dog Democrat, that's me.

Up and down the line. I'm not a fake Democrat, and I don't play the cynicism game. We are making a difference and if you don't think so, you can take your party-splitting ways and shove them.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bbgrunt]

100. you only need to watch the votes since they've been

in power to understand that what this article says is basically true. Oh sure, there are a few true patriots in the party, but for the most part, the $'s have corrupted everything.

[seemslikeadream]

118. Pushing back the power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajbHkLk6LgY


Lack of water
Got to free yourself
Maybe I'm to blame
But it's not too far to see
Got to close the curtains
Before I get free
Shelter is a place
That I would like to behold
Better get to getting
Before I get old
All I need is the water
Times are changing
Worlds are breaking
turning me around
Never run for shelter
Cause I can't hear the sound
Try so hard to leave it
But it takes me away
Pushing back the power
Now it's so sad to say
Maybe I'm to blame
But it's not too far to see
Got to close the curtains
Before I get free
Shelter is a place
That I would like to behold
Better get to getting
Before I get old

[Lerkfish]

120. recc'd. I think the real problem is that

elections are the illusion. The supreme court proved it in 2000, and vote caging and easily corruptible electronic voting proves it further.
There is a desired result to an election and the pesky voters must sometimes be "corrected" to achieve that desired result.

what we need to do is look beyond either party and find out whose desired result.

[Bolo Boffin]

158. As I thought, you also are filled with bitter political cynicism.

The death by poison of any real progressive organization.

If elections don't mean anything, why do you bother? You completely undercut the motivation for political action by doing so, and I pledge to resist your cynicism with everything I have.

[MadHound]

127. Excellent article that cuts to the heart of the problem in this country

We have been, and are being ruled by the two party/same corporate master system of government in which there is an ongoing game of good cop/bad cop to entertain and divert the masses, all the while the corporate masters behind the scenes are destroying this country for their personal profit.

There is only one major Democratic candidate who isn't beholden to corporate interests, and that's Kucinich. He is the only reason that I'm hanging onto this party at this point. Sadly the man who has been right on the issues, who speaks truth to power isn't celebrated within his own party, instead he is denigrated and ridiculed for telling the truth and putting the people of this country ahead of corporate America.

[Lerkfish]

136. one only needs to look at this thread and see how supporting Kucinich is denigrated

to see that your'e correct.

One wonders why a certain group is so threatened by Kucinich.

[MadHound]

137. Kucinich is a major threat to the two party/same corporate master status quo

He speaks truth to power and is dead set against corporate control of our government. Not only is Kucinich denigrated around here, but he is spurned by the national party(the J/J dinner in Iowa last night is a good example), and the corporate media trivializes him. If any other candidate had been calling for impeachment during a debate, they would have gotten a relevant question at some point. Instead Dennis gets a question about UFOs, designed to make him look like a nutcase(which he didn't since he handled the question with aplomb).

Hell, he brings impeachment to the floor, and hardly anybody notices. It wasn't on TV news(except Olberman), it wasn't on NPR, and the only print it got was a two paragraph article buried in the back of the NYT. Though I do have to admit, those who did cover the story were a bit surprised at how his own party turned on him, and rather than taking on Cheney decided to tuck tail and throw the bill into committee.

The Democratic party is becoming and increasingly sad spectacle to watch. As a long time Democratic supporter, it really is sad to watch a once great party of the people devolve into simply being another collection of corporate whores playing a game of good cop/bad cop to distract the masses.

[Bolo Boffin]

160. That is a lie. No one has denigrated supporting Kucinich at all. Quit telling lies. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

138. By Joel S. Hirschhorn

It's seems Hirschhorn was published at DU awhile back apparently he is an acceptable author here just in case one or two people were wondering


http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/03/09_walmart.html


Tackling the Tyranny of Wal-Mart

March 9, 2005
By Joel S. Hirschhorn

For its cancerous growth, Wal-Mart has exploited cheap foreign and domestic labor and is now a metaphor for the export of American jobs and prosperity to other nations. Some say Americans have a love-hate relationship with Wal-Mart. Maybe - but the more you know, the more you hate. Some bargains are not what they seem to be.

No other company has faced so much passionate grassroots opposition to its expansion across America. It has been painted as evil incarnate for its destruction of open space, exploitation of workers here and abroad, destruction of domestic manufacturing and its jobs, and ruination of small town America and small, locally owned businesses. Its huge imports have exported our prosperity and given China and other nations some control over our future. Its focus on providing low prices has shaped Wal-Mart's defense: we just give consumers what they want, don't blame us for being better at offering low prices than everyone else.

The logical way to challenge this defense is to invoke what economists call externalization of costs. Wal-Mart shifts health care and other costs to all taxpayers, who subsidize Wal-Mart and its customers, yet receive no benefits. Call it the Wal-Mart tax.

Consider these examples: in Iowa, for example, 845 Wal-Mart workers or members of their families are on Medicaid. In Connecticut, 1,028 Wal-Mart employees are in the state's medical care assistance program, or 11.3 percent of its workers in the state. In Alabama, Wal-Mart employees had 3,864 children on Medicaid. In Georgia, Wal-Mart employees had 10,261 children receiving state medical care assistance. In Tennessee, Wal-Mart had 9,617 employees receiving state health care assistance, nearly 25 percent of the company's entire workforce in the state. Both state and federal taxpayer money is being spent to assist Wal-Mart employees and their families.

[Bolo Boffin]

164. I am attacking an argument - not an author.

What part of that can you not understand? First you hide behind Dennis Kucinich and now this.

The argument is the Freeper shit. It's poison to grassroots action. It's victimizing and enabling. And you are just perpetuating.

[LWolf]

163. I'd love to see this pinned to the top of the page

for the rest of the primary season.

:hi:

[EVDebs]

175. Elect PROGRESSIVES, dino's won't do the trick. It's time for real change in the USA nt

[lovuian]

176. this says it all and a reality

Its the NWO

[Lilith Velkor]

177. ibtl

:headbang:

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. It is time to shock the system out of this criminal duopoly

you are not the only who now gets it... was listening to Randi's Monday's show and she concluded the same thing

She and constittutional schollars, They are now all complicit (wiht a few exceptions) but the two parties are complicit, in my vew legallly complicit

Read the Shock Doctirne and the pieces fall into place in a scary way

[Mme. Defarge]

179. Exactement!

This exactly my take on things. Great post. Thanks.

[mmonk]

180. Boy, this brought out the fireworks, didn't it?

Whether one believes as the author posits about the two parties or not, I'm afraid the inaction of the democratic members of congress to vote as a block against bush administration abuses fuels the discontent and the perceptions out there. The party has only itself to blame. We must recognize the problem or be condemned by our inability to fix it.