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Galloping gobs of God-almighty-damn! Joe Klein (Time mag) gets utterly annihilated...TWICE!

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 01:17 AM
Original message
Galloping gobs of God-almighty-damn! Joe Klein (Time mag) gets utterly annihilated...TWICE!
Feast...

I. Beat-Down The First, as performed by the masterful Glenn Greenwald:

Joe Klein: Both factually false and stuck in the 1980s

For the sake of its own credibility, Time Magazine needs immediately to prohibit Joe Klein from uttering another word about the eavesdropping and FISA controversy. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about and he publishes demonstrably false statements.

Klein's latest article in Time does nothing more than what Klein and most Beltway "liberal" pundits always do and have been doing for the last twenty years -- namely, warn Democrats that they will lose elections unless they renounce their beliefs and act as much as possible like Republicans on national security issues. The article is entitled "Still Stumbling on National Security" and contains every 1980-2003 cliche about how Democrats better not oppose the big, mean, tough George Bush on war issues or else Rush Limbaugh will attack them and they'll lose. More on that in a moment.

Klein's main complaint is that "Democrats in Congress are being foolishly partisan on two key issues: continued funding for the war in Iraq and updating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)." On FISA, he claims:

Unfortunately, Speaker Nancy Pelosi quashed the House Intelligence Committee's bipartisan effort and supported a Democratic bill that -- Limbaugh is salivating -- would require the surveillance of every foreign-terrorist target's calls to be approved by the FISA court, an institution founded to protect the rights of U.S. citizens only. In the lethal shorthand of political advertising, it would give terrorists the same legal protections as Americans. That is well beyond stupid.

"Well beyond stupid" is a good description for what Klein wrote here. "Factually false" is even better. First, from its inception, FISA did not "protect the rights of U.S. citizens only." Its warrant requirements apply to all "U.S. persons" (see 1801(f)), which includes not only U.S. citizens but also "an alien lawfully admitted (in the U.S.) for permanent residence" (see 1801(i)). From 1978 on, FISA extended its warrant protections to resident aliens.

But Klein's far more pernicious "error" is his Limbaugh-copying claim that the House bill "require(s) the surveillance of every foreign-terrorist target's calls to be approved by the FISA court." It just does not.

...any who fail to read the rest will live incomplete lives from here on out:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/11/21/klein/index.html

(yeah, I said it)

( ;) )

II. Beat-Down The Second, as provided by Wired.com's techno-Jedi, Mr. Ryan Singel:

The debate over what powers the nation's spy agencies should have to wiretap America's internet and phone infrastructure without court oversight is a complicated one, but it grows even more cloudy when pundits like Time magazine's Joe Klein are allowed to spout dangerous propaganda in the nation's largest media outlets.

In a column intended to give advice to Democrats on their surveillance and Iraq policies, Klein drops this oil spill into the national debate about the pending Congressional legislation modifying the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act:

The basic principle (of the Senate Intelligence committee bill) is this: if a suspicious pattern of calls from a terrorist suspect to a U.S. citizen is found, a FISA court warrant is necessary to monitor those communications. But to safeguard against civil-liberty abuses, all records of clearly nontargeted Americans who receive emails or phone calls from foreign suspects would be, in effect, erased. Unfortunately, Speaker Nancy Pelosi quashed the House Intelligence Committee's bipartisan effort and supported a Democratic bill that — Limbaugh is salivating — would require the surveillance of every foreign-terrorist target's calls to be approved by the FISA court, an institution founded to protect the rights of U.S. citizens only. In the lethal shorthand of political advertising, it would give terrorists the same legal protections as Americans. That is well beyond stupid.

The whole paragraph is so wrong, it's not clear where to start.

First of all, neither bill has anything to do how the nation's intelligence services wiretap outside the country. In that case, no warrants are needed and no court oversight is involved. All that has to happen is the spooks largely can't specifically target an American inside the United States, and communications that involve anyone inside the United States, have to be minimized (e.g. remove their names) unless there's good reason not to. Say, if they are actually plotting some sort of attack or talking about importing cocaine.

It's been that way for more than 25 years and nothing in any of the bills changes that. In fact, all versions of the bills pending in Congress EXPAND the feds' legal wiretapping powers as they existed before August. In the House bill that passed last week, the FISA court only comes into play when targeting foreigners when the NSA wants to order Google or AT&T to let the NSA use their domestic facilities.

But if the NSA knows who the terrorist is and a list of the foreigners they think he's communicating with, they can order either company to help without visiting the court. If the NSA can only get at a suspected foreign target by wiretapping them inside the United States and they think the target may talk to Americans, the bill would require them to prove to the FISA court that they have probable cause to believe the target is a foreigner. If it's an emergency, they can start tapping and days later provide "probable cause" that the foreigner is a foreigner to the secret court.

That's what Klein calls giving "terrorists the same legal protections as Americans." In the case of targeting Americans inside America, the government has to prove much more - mainly that the government has good reason to believe that the American is an agent of a foreign power or is a terrorist. Moreover, Klein can't even figure out that the House bill that passed last week IS the House Intelligence Committee's bill, not some Democratic substitute masterminded by Pelosi.

...more, see above note re: living an incomplete life, etc:

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/times-columnist.html

Hoo.

Wham and splatter.

:toast:
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. Everything that comes out of Joe Klein's mouth is Georgetown cocktail party blather
nt
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Ytzak Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Greenwald and Singel are gods....
It warms my heart to see people who are fighthing the call for democrats to be kinder gentler Repbulcans.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. Eh. How hard could it be?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ryan Singel has been all over this issue from day one. Recent articles
White House Spy Docs Show Surveillance Was Illegal, Senator Feingold Charges
By Ryan Singel - Oct 18, 2007 - http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/white-house-spy.html

Before 9/11, NSA Asked Qwest for Network Access, Not Phone Records, National Journal Reports
By Ryan Singel - Nov 02, 2007 - http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/before-911-nsa-.html

In Twist, Senate Judiciary Spying Bill Lacks Immunity for Telecoms
By Ryan Singel Nov 15, 2007 - http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/in-twist-senate.html

MORE: Are ALL COMMUNICATIONS routed overseas to circumvent US law and the Constitution?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2245762

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. why do we have to work so hard to get the ''liberal media'' types -- and
certain democratic leadership types to get the facts right?

anyway -- recommend -- but it shouldn't be this hard.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. The entire Greenwald piece really is a must-read, like a Rosetta Stone
to the Tower of Babel that is the fatally compromised corporate media that helped to bring us the Iraq war and two stolen elections.

What a repugnant though vivid microcosm this is for how so many of our Beltway journalists function. They think that their only job is to write down faithfully what they are told by both sides (if we're lucky) and call it a day. If one side is blatantly lying and the other side is telling the truth, that isn't for them to say.

Exactly like a stenographer in a court proceeding, their only job is to record the words that they hear accurately, not to identify what actually is true. And here is Klein admitting -- finally -- that this is exactly what he did (although in this case, he wasn't even a good stenographer since he only wrote down what one side said, not both).

The very idea of a reporter and a major news magazine publishing a piece about a crucial bill that neither the reporter nor any editor has ever even bothered to read is amazing. No blogger that I read regularly would ever think about doing that. But that's how the Bush administration has been able to depict all of its false statements about Iraq, and its illegal spying on Americans, as some sort of complex, impossible-to-resolve "controversy." GOP operatives say "X" and reporters write it down, and it would be terribly "partisan" for them to point out that "X" is actually an outright lie.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. So... who here is against amnesty for telecoms that wiretapped all us citizens by data-mining?
Edited on Sun Nov-25-07 04:08 PM by Leopolds Ghost
And what would Pelosi's or the Senate bill do to shut down
illegal sifting (data-mining) of all US communications?

and hold telecoms liable for allowing ECHELON, etc?

If it would (retroactively and otherwise) legalize it,

why aren't we calling for their head on a pike instead of
patting them on the back when they get bit by the hand
that feeds them for doing exactly what Klein, etc. want?
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Can I borrow a delightfully grotesque phrase from you
and refer to the floppy shriveled nutsack of Joe Klein?

Gawd, he's turning into David Broder before our very eyes.

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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. kick, good to see some clarification out there on what *is* and *isn't* FISA regulated.
(aside) I love the reminder of 'probable cause' in regards to American residents. It's one of those basic legal tenants...like habeus corpus.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's pretty spectacular, isn't it?
Reasonable people have no problem understanding this. As always, it's the willfully ignorant third, the backwash, the "Some of the People, All of the Time" folks who sit there and lap it up unquestioningly. . .

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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-25-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. Klein should be reporting on important matters, like missing blond women
in Aruba.
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