Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

[Leo 9]

Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

Monday December 10, 2007 10:16 PM


By JUDITH KOHLER

Associated Press Writer

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The deadly shooting sprees at a megachurch and a missionary training school were believed to have been carried out by the same person - a 24-year-old suburban Denver man who ``hated Christians,'' a law enforcement official told The Associated Press.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation, identified the gunman as Matthew Murray, the son of a neurologist who is a prominent researcher on multiple sclerosis.

Five people - including a gunman - were killed, and five others wounded Sunday in the two eruptions of violence 12 hours and 65 miles apart.

The first attack took place at a youth missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvata; the other occurred at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where the gunman was shot and killed by a security guard.

The law enforcement official said Murray was believed to be the gunman in both attacks. Murray did not appear to have a criminal history but ``hated Christians,'' the official said. The official did not know Murray's religion, if any.

snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7141859,00.html

[DavidDvorkin]

1. I'm sure we'll be given proof of this hatred

Any day now.

[dbackjon]

5. Don't hold your breath

[Leo 9]

9. The real headline is the release of his name.

As to what made Matthew Murray's clock tick there should be more on that later.

Who knows where "The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation" is coming from?

[Captain Angry]

17. In Colo Springs, they just have to connect him to

Dungeons & Dragons (or World of Warcraft these days)

And they will have their "evidence."

[joshcryer]

20. Do you live here?

Because that's a pretty assinine statement.

[Captain Angry]

27. Close enough.

And it's not asinine.

Remember the "reasons" that Columbine happened? Not the real ones, just the ones that the local and national press ran with?

That was my point. Not that it's remotely true, but if they can link him to video games or even being a fan of Lord of the Rings, that will dominate the press again.

[joe_sixpack]

31. They don't have to live here

remember the rumour of the Colorado Rockies only hiring "evangelical" players, and how quickly that was accepted?

[joshcryer]

33. The team denounced that within the day, though.

[joe_sixpack]

34. Yes, they did

it was a ridiculous idea in the first place. But it fit into people's misconceptions. Just like folks would love to believe that Colorado Springs is some fundy Mecca, simply because Focus or other groups like it have their offices there.

[joshcryer]

35. True, but it really is far from the case.

[Tesha]

54. Colorado Springs is a cesspit of bigotry and intolerance.

> True, but it really is far from the case.

Colorado Springs is a cesspit of bigotry and intolerance.

Two lesbian friends of our family left the Springs after
the fine, tolerant citizens of that city firebombed
their home (where this couple was peacefully raising
their two kids, BTW).

Oh yes, Colorado Springs is everything it's been accused
of being.

Tesha

[joshcryer]

73. When was this? Colorado Springs has a huge gay and lesbian community.

You're delusional. Hate crime on homosexuals is non-existant this day and age. The only murders that have been commited in the city this year were domestic (boyfriends killing girlfriends/wives/ex lovers). And the other crimes are just the same.

[Tesha]

76. Next time we see them...

...I'll ask them if they've ever considered moving back.

And I'll report how long they laugh and/or cry.

There may be someone here who is "delusional", but I
don't think it's me -- and I hope the delusions never
get to the point of leading you into personal harm.

Tesha

[joshcryer]

81. Tell 'em to check out the GLBT parade next time they're in town.

Surely the view of Pikes peak is envious enough for them to have another visit.

[joe_sixpack]

75. Every place has its share of idiots

I've lived there and seen gay and lesbian celebrations in city parks and it doesn't even cause anyone enough of a distraction to make them look up from their cell phones. One incident alone doesn't earn the label of "cesspit of bigotry and intolerance" Now if you wanted to complain about their driving habits, or the stripmall design of the city or even the excessive influence of land developers on the city government, that's another thing.

[joshcryer]

80. C.S. has the best drivers of any city I've lived in.

I've lived in Seattle, Los Angeles (OMFG), New Orleans, Chicago, Lexington, and many other small Southern and eastern towns. By far my favorite drivers are C.S.

The other things you said have merit though, urban sprawl has severely affected the city.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

41. absolutely. Any agnostic would have been drafted, then brain-washed.

they have plenty of time to make them christian during the preseason.

[krispos42]

67. They didn't hire evangelical players, but...

they enforced a Christian morality code in the locker room.

At least, that's what local paper reported.

[demigoddess]

36. I have lived in ColoSprings and I can tell you that is not assinine. They always

said that any group that did not meet in a church was a group of witches, and any teenager that was anywhere near any graffiti on a wall was definitely a satanist. They are not crazy about military men except if they are officers, and even then they have the idea that military people live on the dole their whole lives. And to boot, they have a small cottage industry in separating handicapped kids from their parents. We had a woman show up at my house and insist that I should consider putting my daughter in a home at the age of 16, when I asked why, she said that it would happen eventually anyway and I might as well get used to it. I told her that normal children moved away when they became adults but we did not kick them out at age 16 in order to 'get used to it'. When I said that we would not be settling in ColoSgs forever that did not faze her either. She still thought I should do it!!!!

[joshcryer]

74. OK, that woman is representitive of Colorado Springs as a whole.

:sarcasm:

[joshcryer]

23. Just wait patiently for the emails.

[joshcryer]

29. BTW, just to clarify something, do you think a person who has 1k rounds of ammunition.

Doesn't hate the people he's targeting?

The hate letter will be shown. They wouldn't be calling it that on the local news unless it had some really messed up language in it.

[H2O Man]

52. The proof

is pretty obvious.

[polichick]

2. This is one "hate crime" Republicans will get. nt

[Narkos]

3. Here we go again...

more witch hunting for atheists

[dbackjon]

6. No evidence he is an athiest.

[rexcat]

39. You misspelled atheist!

[Prophet 451]

44. Doesn't need to be

If he "hated" Christians, he was OBVIOUSLY an athiest!

None of the people sent down during teh Satanic Panics were actually Satanists either.

[dbackjon]

4. Next part of story is telling....

Matthew Murray lived there along with a brother, Christopher, 21, a student at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla.

A neighbor, Cody Askeland, 19, said the brothers were home-schooled, describing the whole family as ``very, very religious.''



So he hated his family?
What basis does the deputy have for his statement? Is he just assuming that?

[AspenRose]

8. Curiouser and curiouser

Wasn't he turned down by YWAM for missions? Why would someone who hated Christians want to be a missionary?

:shrug:

Lots of unanswered questions.

[malaise]

18. A better question is was he abused by anyone in the church

He was planning a slaughter on a massive scale. That is serious rage.

[joshcryer]

21. This is going to be a case of "Christian Boy" Turning Nihilist. Bank on it.

In reality he never was a Christian and probably hated his childhood.

[fascisthunter]

26. Kids are Born into Religions

and don't get to choose their religion nor their parent's. How is it that you think "he never was a Christian"?

[joshcryer]

28. Because I was the same way, too much indoctrination can have the opposite effect.

Luckily I matured up and didn't get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

[fascisthunter]

30. I See What You are Stating

And glad you didn't get a gun and start shooting.

[Cerridwen]

7. The article's title does not match the article's information.

The kid was looking into going to Oral Roberts University (where his brother is a student) but decided it was too expensive. His was a very religious family.

Self-hating Christian?

Okay, I guess that makes sense.

Maybe.

edit to add: I see no one in the article nor the writer of the article provided any proof of the guy's "hatred" of Christians. I'm not saying he didn't; I'm saying the article doesn't support the title.

[Warpy]

10. Earlier today it was posted that he was a former church member

I didn't think it would take them long to pretend he was one of the vast atheist conspiracy.

After all, no megachurch member, even a former one, could possibly go nuts and start shooting people, right?

[spoony]

83. And, after all, no one can ever stop being a Christian

right?

I find it staggering that you are all in such denial that you dismiss the killer's own words. He did not identify as a Christian. He did, however, express his desire to murder as many of them as he could.

[Dukkha]

11. I can hear the Faux dogs salivating over this

barely containing their enthusiasm on air

[DFW]

13. Maybe so, maybe not

They are still for any nut case being able to buy guns at their local
7-11, so they might not find this quite as much to their advantage as
they might wish. I'm sure their "news" authors have been given wide creative
latitude on this one.

[Leo 9]

15. It's hard to believe the headline since he was so into that world.

You are probably correct that they (of the evil movement that calls itself conservative) will go with it.

[joshcryer]

22. Erm. Homeschooled kids aren't "in" to that world, they're "trapped" in that world.

[spoony]

48. Can't imagine that's any worse than DUers rabidly denying it

Hate crimes are hate crimes, you can't grieve for some and cover your eyes to others.

[TZ]

51. Hate crimes are crimes agaisnt ETHNIC groups--usually minorities

Because what person who is going on a shooting spree is not filled with hate? Are domestic violence cases hate crimes? certainly the person's love for someone has turned to hate...Was the Va Tech shooting a hate crime? He targeted college students! And he was filled with hate and loathing for those around him. Are office shootings hate crimes? The shooters have a grudge agaisnt their former employer. If a victim of molestation shoots the molester is that a hate crime?
You are confusing a hate filled individual with "hate crime". There is a difference. Christianity is not an ethnic group subject that has been subject to biogotry of any sort. To suggest otherwise is RW propaganda, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[spoony]

60. You've got to be fucking joking.

So if a spree killer targets a specific group of people, driven by a deeply held bigotry against them, that isn't a hate crime to you because...it isn't an ethnic group? Neither are gay people, genius. If he'd opened fire in a couple gay bars what would you be saying right now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Except bigotry hasn't been established.

It appears he was himself a christian.

[spoony]

77. You can lead a sarcastic horse to water but you

can't make him read the bloody articles about what a killer writes about their intended victims.

[Cabcere]

72. turtlensue, I like and respect you, and I kind of see where you're coming from, but...

...your post seems to suggest that because Christians are not an ethnic group and have not experienced any kind of bigotry (which is not entirely true - they've certainly suffered a whole hell of a lot less than many others, but there has been and is some bigotry), it's somehow less of a crime to kill them? :shrug: I don't think that's what you're saying, and I really hope it's not, but that's just how it came across to me. :shrug: Peace.

[bluestateguy]

12. Then he should be charged with a hate crime

nt

[pdxmom]

14. This AP article is some of the crappiest reporting ever. Not a shred

of proof about the "hated Christians" and completely unattributed. I'm going to assume it's speculation on the part of this "official" and not worth reporting.

[Kansas Wyatt]

24. Bingo!!!

And it was repeated on the local news in K.C. this evening.

[mntleo2]

16. I hate organized religion and I am a christian

...I go to church, but it took years of work finding one that worked with me that did not do or tried not to do the following:

1. Most of them were either up-the-butt stiffies, too hypocritical ~ like, you are going to hell if you were born gay but ooo-lala I will dork my secretary because she is a single mom and depends on me to give her a job, or you are going to hell if you don't vote for George Bu$h, or, as long as it is "legal" it is fine to steal every penny you can from any widow or orphan just as long as Uncle Sam says it is all right,
2. all their "fund raising" was for themselves, not for charity work within the community or world,
3. too much "praise the Lord" but when it came to acting like a christian , well no time for that ~ like loving your neighbor,or I don't give a damn if YOUR daughter dies in Iraq because I have that yellow ribbon on my car, and who cares if the man sleeping in the doorway down the street freezes to death, I have my brand new Hummer, etc ...the list goes on and on and on with these people.
4. too fundamental, not intelligent enough. Any moron knows that the Bible was written in increments by many different people, and in different times and cultures. So words, descriptions and all translations are suspect. So to think ANY translation is somehow word-for-word true is ridiculous and anyone who believes it all is ...well a moron. My grandmother spoke what she called low German. So when she and her sisters got together and were rolling on the floor laughing over a joke I would ask them to explain it to me in English because I wanted to join in as to what was so funny. They would explain it and it would not be funny to me. They said that it was not funny in English, just in their language ~ the point being that things get lost in the translation.

I am as disgusted as any atheist would be because I have seen with my own eyes how ALL of those disgusting behaviors are done, especially by the mega churches who care more about getting those widow's mites rather than to actually house one.

If they blame atheists for this one, they are just being stupid. Many mega-church evangelists are true atheists because they are ~ people who REALLY worship money, position and power and call it "Jeeezus"


My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[MindPilot]

37. "Many mega-church evangelists are true atheists because they are ~ people who REALLY worship money"

A "true Atheist" worships money?!

Sorry no, try again.

[mntleo2]

45. No, no I meant ...

...those "christians" are worshiping the wrong deity because they equate money to God. See, to those of us who believe in God, that is paramount to saying they are just elevating worldly possessions into a deity, while pretending that they are worshipping God. To most people of faith like me, God is not of this world, and also the love of money is about greed and causes great misery ~ not for the money lover, but for everyone around them as they sit on more than they need while their neighbor starves, this is immoral (perhaps even to an atheist), see? I am not saying that atheists worship money. I am saying by pretending you are religious, yet giving your heart and soul to things of this world, you are lying to yourself, to others, and to the world.

Sheesh, a little touchy there, aren't you? I know atheists are good people and respect their stance. Geez.

Cat In Seattle

[JHB]

55. May I suggest the term "mammonist" for the buck-worshippers

I caught your point, but yes, atheists can be really touchy when the word is used in the same breath as some vile, amoral implication, even if connecting the two wasn't the intent.

Years of having a word that applies to you used as shorthand for "enemy of everything good and right in the world" (especially by the biggest dirtbags around, with most of the rest eating it up like candy) can make the defensive trigger fingers a bit itchy.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

79. I know of two denominations that accept gay people.

The United Church of Christ (Congregationalist, started Harvard and Yale)

and

The Unitarian-Universalists, which have a particular designation as an Accepting Congregation, which congregations can adopt. The UUs never throw anyone out because there is no creedal test for belonging.

Some Episcopalians accept gays.

There are also Humanist groups.

www.uua.org

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlCzervik]

25. that article is chock full of no details, good job AP, way to phone it in.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

32. Is this being twisted into a Christian-bashing story or an anti-Christian-bashing story?

I'm confused. Bodies, bodies everywhere
and I need to know if I hate them or not.

[The Straight Story]

38. Well, if he loved christians, would he have been shooting them up?

I doubt it. If he was a brainwashed fundie wouldn't he be shooting up someone else?

[charlie]

40. If they weren't "Christian enough", yeah

It's a common enough sort of deranged zealotry.

[spoony]

49. Common enough that you can cite some examples?

[treestar]

46. Good point, but then people of the same group can divide down further

Christians killed each other historically for being the wrong kind of Christian.

But this guy sounds like he was one of those guys who snapped, and happened to live in this world, so that's where it happened. If he were a student at a University it might have happened there, or if he worked at a certain place, there.

The fundies may have thought themselves immune to this sort of thing.

[knitter4democracy]

42. So, he's from a very, very religious family, is home-schooled, and, what?

He was angry, sure, but it sounds like there's tons more going on than just he snapped one day and started hating Christians. That sounds like propaganda to me.

[AlCzervik]

43. he was thrown out of some youth mission group at one of the places, one of the

articles in gd--not the one in this op said he was removed from the program because of "Health reasons" and i'm going to make the leap and say they were most likely mental health issues.

[Corgigal]

56. That's what I heard on the TV today

sounds like another kid who felt he was an "outcast" then add some mental health issues.

[mitchum]

47. Since he was also a christian, I guess he knew them best

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ganja Ninja]

53. This was at Ted Haggard's old church.

(snip)
"Later, at New Life Church, a gunman wearing a trench coat and carrying a high-powered rifle opened fire in the parking lot and later walked into the church as a service was letting out."

" New Life, with a largely upper middle-class membership, was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was dismissed last year after a former male prostitute alleged a relationship with him. Haggard admitted committing unspecified "sexual immorality."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7143273,00.html

[JHB]

57. Follow up article (same writer)

Colo. Gunman May Have Warned of Attacks
By JUDITH KOHLER | Associated Press Writer
6:51 AM EST, December 11, 2007

Investigators were reportedly looking for answers in several rants Murray is believed to have posted on a Web site for people who have left evangelical religious groups. The most recent post was Sunday morning in the hours between his attacks in Arvada and Colorado Springs, according to KUSA-TV in Denver, which first reported on the writings.

"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to the station, which did not identify the site. "All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."
***
On Monday, officials said revenge was one apparent motive for the attacks. Police said Murray had been kicked out of a training center for missionaries where the first shootings occurred. He had sent hate mail to the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada in the last few weeks after being removed from the program years ago.

In a statement, the training center said health problems kept Murray from finishing the program, but elaborated little. Murray did not complete the lecture phase or a field assignment as part of a 12-week program, Youth With a Mission said.

"The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to" finish, it said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/sns-ap-church-shootings,0,340893.story?coll=ny_home_rail_headlines

[PassingFair]

63. One of their own.

Sad.

Sick is sick.

I hope they tried to get him help.

It will all come out in the wash.

I feel bad for all concerned.

But I, too, think that the security guards statement that
God helped her shoot the guy is

:puke:

DISGUSTING.

[Occulus]

66. I'd say it's more likely they rejected him BECAUSE he needed help

True story: my roommate was once so desperate for a job that he went to a self-described "christian employer".

They turned him away. They told him he was too nice to others for the position.

Not a joke. Serious as a heart attack.

[LanternWaste]

68. No pun intended... some Missionary schools are TOUGH...

In '85-'86, I dated a young lady who had done an insane amount of missionary work in Central America. Over the course of our relationship, she would tell me one anecdote after another about the twelve-week course she had to take.

Since a lot of missionary work is in dangerous and/or third world nations, there was a focus on physical fitness and understanding of the inherent dangers of these particular lands. Indeed, she herself had been abducted and ransomed when all was said and done (another story and not nearly as dramatic as it may sound).

Although neither one of us had ever been in the military, from her descriptions I inferred that her particular missionary school was on par with Army basic training in one respect- lots and lots and LOTS of PT. She told that out of approximately 240 students, only 80 or so graduated the course, the rest being rejected-- mostly because they didn't pass the final PT tests.

If missionary schools are today as they were twenty years ago, I'm betting the guy simply wasn't able to pass the necessary physicals.

Add: What I'm repeating is merely second hand knowledge that's twenty years old. I have zero ideas if the schools are the same today or not.

[LanternWaste]

58. Odd. Other than an anonymous person saying...

Odd. Other than an anonymous person saying "but ``hated Christians,'' the official said...", there's really no evidence pointing to an overall hatred on the gunman's part.

Seems to me as though the gunman had it in for the missionary school, but not religion (or even a religion) in general. :shrug:

Edit: O-k. Just saw the post above me. Still... :shrug:

[JHB]

59. I take "Christians" here to mean...

...this particular church, which is one of those that's too holier-than-thou to have its members identify by denomination, just as "Christian". If the kid had the perspective to see a bigger picture, he wouldn't have done what he did.

[LanternWaste]

62. That's a perspective I didn't see...

That's a perspective I didn't see. Re-reading it now, yeah-- your take on it sounds reasonable enough to me...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Seems Like A Fair Enough Assessment. Forgive Me For Completely Missing Why Some Are Angry About It.

What's the problem here? There were multiple shootings at 2 churches and the police investigation has uncovered that the gunman had a hatred towards christians. The specific details are not yet released due to the ongoing investigation and just quite simply standard procedure. There is no reason to believe whatsoever that the statements have any deeper agenda than simply investigative fact.

So why are so many acting outraged or angry over the comments? Sometimes, things just are what they are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. How the hell does he know that? I love this "speaking on the condition of anonymity" crap.

The kid is dead. Did the kid leave a note saying such a thing? Could he have just been mentally ill and ready to kill the first people he had access to? Or is this a continuation of the the Christians being picked on...during the War on Christmas?

[readmoreoften]

70. How could he hate Christians? He was a Christian.

Sounds like someone who grew up under an abusive church that drove him insane and he reacted violently against it. It's not like it was atheists or Muslims or Jews rolled into town and open fired on people because of their beliefs.

If this is the church in Jesus Camp, these poor kids are so abused it's not much of a surprise if one snaps and becomes violent.

This is a tragedy of religion, not atheism.

[spoony]

82. Apparently Richard Dawkins is a Christian as well

because it is, after all, an inherited condition that one can never disassociate from.

[krispos42]

71. Yeah, well, he's not alone

Lots of people hate Christians as much as Christians hate Muslims. Oh, excuse me, "Islamofascists".

Or, if they don't hate the Christians themselves, they hate a) how they brainwash their kids, b) use politics and the machinery of government to advance their religion, c) put their beliefs above that of the Constitution and the law, d) their worship of the strict father model in lieu of their own morality, and e) their equating the unfettered free market with Godliness and the teachings of Jesus.

[NMMNG]

78. He had a mental illness

And likely a vendetta against the religion he grew up in, and later felt had wronged him.

Matthew Murray was kicked out of a missionary training program five years ago for strange behavior, and talked about hearing voices, according to a man who served at the center with him.

<snip>

Werner, of Balneario Camborius, Brazil, said he had a bunk near Murray's and that Murray would roll around in bed and make noises.

"He would say, 'Don't worry, I'm just talking to the voices,' " Werner said. "He'd say, 'Don't worry, Richard. You're a nice guy. The voices like you.' "

<snip>

Peter Warren, director of Youth With A Mission, said Monday that Murray did not go on the mission he was training for in 2002 because managers thought that "issues relating to his health made it unsafe for him to do so."

<snip>

Full Text

[joshcryer]

84. "You Christians brought this on yourselves [all] I want to do is kill and injure as many of you..."

"... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hU4ax39rFCnqHnipVp5TCGP6TKqgD8TFEB7G0

So, the messages have come out, and I was perfectly validated. How many of you people want to take back your comments? Or are you going to call conspiracy? Deny it?

"The language in the post is almost identical to the text of a manifesto written by Eric Harris, one of the teens who carried out the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School, The Denver Post reported."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hU4ax39rFCnqHnipVp5TCGP6TKqgD8TFEB7G0

[joshcryer]

85. Full murderous post:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14822541/detail.html

"Well all you people out there can just kiss my a** and die. From now on I don't give a @#%$ about what you mutha f____ have to say, unless I respect you which is highly unlikely, but for those of you who do happen to know me and know that I respect you, may peace be with you and don't be in my line of fire, for the rest of you, you all better @#%$ hide in your houses because I'm coming for EVERYONE soon.

"No I am not crazy, crazy is just a word, to me it has no meaning, everyone is different, but most of you @#%$ heads there in society, going to your everyday @#%$ jobs and doing everyday routine shi____y things, I say @#%$ you and die ....

"DEAD PEOPLE DON'T ARGUE. My belief is that if I say something, it goes. I am the law ... Dead people can't do many things like argue, whine, @#%$, complain, name, rat out, criticize, or even @#%$ talk. So that's the only way to solve argument with all you f__heads out there, I just kill. God, I can't wait till I can kill you people, I'll just go to some downtown area in some big city and blow up and shoot everything I can.

"You break my back but you won't break me ... all is black but I still see...shut me down, knock me to the floor... shoot me up, @#%$ me like a whore, trapped under ice, comfortably cold, I've gone as low as you can go ... feel no remorse, no sorrow or shame .... time's gonna wash away all pain I made a God out of blood not superiority I killed the king of deceit and now I sleep in anarchy."