God must be a good shot.

[Postman]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

"I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that had vs. what I had -- was God. I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse.


Ah yeah. Okay. And the crazy person was shot in this incident....

[AlCzervik]

1. God, is there anything good or bad he doesn't get credited or slammed for?

[MindPilot]

4. Well actually he always gets the credit.

If something goes wrong, it is the fault of the secularists, feminists, liberals, gays, etc for making god fail to protect his flock.

In both the San Diego and Denver online papers, there were quite a few comments attributing the shootings to terrorists, or just general persecution of Christians. One poster lamented that "It's not surprising, we {Christians} used to be safe in America, but not anymore. The enemies of faith have control now."

[NMMNG]

42. And then there's this:

An Assault On Faith
It is hard not to draw a line between the hostility that is being fomented in our culture from some in the secular media toward Christians and evangelicals in particular and the acts of violence that took place in Colorado yesterday. But I will say no more for now other than that our friends at New Life Church and YWAM are in our thoughts and prayers.

Full Text








An assault on faith resulting from the hostility created by the secular media? The man was a Christian who had, years earlier, been kicked out of a youth mission group because he was exhibiting signs of mental illness. He wasn't a Christian hating "secularist" as some have tried to claim. He was a man with a mental illness who sought revenge on the religion he believed abandoned him.

[stevedeshazer]

2. Then why did God send a gunman in the first place?

Well, I guess everything happens for a reason, right?

Jeez. No words.

[donheld]

31. Why didn't god send a gun man to stop the fool before he shot anyone

The roads were very icy that night and day why didn't god let the fool slip on the ice and shoot himself?

[opiate69]

33. Because it was Jeanne Assam's turn to be special, of course!

Mysterious ways, his plan, yada yada... lather, rinse, repeat.

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. Keep guessing.

You'll never know. Nor will I. I'll keep my faith, you keep your skepticism. In the end, I'll get mine, and you'll get yours. I'm happy with that.

[piedmont]

3. Well, her bullets hit home, while he fired several shots that missed her.

If she wants to credit a higher power for that, I don't see any reason to blame her.

[MindPilot]

7. She was well-trained and focused.

He was a nutcase on a killing spree. Nothing supernatural about it, but to her I say whatever gets you through the day.

[piedmont]

10. That's pretty much how I feel about it. nt

[slackmaster]

50. She's also rather thin

In a Weaver stance she wouldn't present much of a target.

[opiate69]

8. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTF82dNLdvM

[Deja Q]

5. One would think God was too busy betting on sports teams at the time...

Oh well.

[opiate69]

11. Well, he was trying to help his faithful boy Kitna out.. but got distracted by the shooting.

[DS1]

6. Lightning struck 20 miles away. I'd say he was a lousy shot

since God should have been aiming for the shooter.

[KittyWampus]

9. It's as if many DU'ers suffer some strange form of Autism. Where any invocation of ANYTHING beyond

physical, mechanical matter is unfathomable.

And confronted with a larger reality they're unable to understand, they must attack it.

[liberaltrucker]

12. The world IS physical and material

Nobody has attacked any "larger reality".
Just the psychos who pervert my religion.

At least, as a Christian. I can condemn the
fundies. If I were of a certain other religion,
it'd be a death sentence.

[The Magistrate]

13. So You Would Agree, Then, Ma'am

This diety guided the hand of the murderer and saw to the fatal course of those rounds he fired earlier?

[Guaranteed]

18. Maybe so. Maybe not.

Either way, it was damned lucky that lady was there and stopped this guy.

If you have an easier time defining "luck" than "God," just go ahead with that.

[The Magistrate]

20. She Did Fine, Sir, No Question

[silverojo]

26. She wasn't lucky

She was well-trained and he wasn't. End of story.

(And no, I'm not an athiest.)

[KittyWampus]

28. The One Thing that is commonly called "God", and which is more accurately called Providence,

acts in all things to the benefit of Mankind.

It's a bitter pill for children to swallow. But grown ups realize that which makes us struggle leads to our most profound growth.

At any rate, what I believe matters little.

The woman stated her interpretation of what happened.

That DU'ers feel a need to ridicule that is beyond contemptible.

It speaks to a total enslavement to material reality that's every bit as unbalanced as the right wing fundies who take the bible literally.

Those who live by a purely Mechanistic world view will die accordingly and really shouldn't bitch about those who treat humans as mere objects. It reeks of hypocrisy.

[The Magistrate]

30. Good Luck With That, Ma'am....

It will convince no one who does not already share your view. No serious student of history and the human condition can regard the statement that some controlling entity or process acts always "to the benefit of Mankind" as anything but a joke in poor taste. If your statement were to be treated seriously, you would have to proceed to point out how the murders this young man committed prior to his being shot by this volunteer guard were "to the benefit of Mankind". You would not succeed in that endeavor, Ma'am. Nor does death befall only materialists: it is the common lot of all born, and there is no evidence but intensity of desire it be otherwise that after death is anything at all, for anyone.

"This is the best world possible: everything in it is a necessary evil."

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

44. And yet, many who would feel my words are anathema site Darwin. And jokingly give out Darwin Awards

Yes, I've gotten nasty replies when positing a philosophy many millions on this earth have come to appreciate and embrace.

One that sees the Universe as Beneficent. One that constantly challenges us to grow and evolve.

But it's the one world view that releases us from the slavery of Victomhood.

At heart, I am largely a Stoic.

Ironically, the Stoics helped build the very materialistic framework of Science that many on DU unconsciously adhere to.

[The Magistrate]

51. Stoicism Is Fine, Ma'am

Also largely atheistic, and quite unconcerned with questions of afterlife and free of imaginings all is for the best however it might appear.

Neither arguement from number, or effect on some minds, will suffice to move me: the first boils down to the old cry of the perfumer that 'Forty million Frenchmen can't be wrong!", and the second is a frank confession one is imposing what one would like to be true on whatever it is one may actually be confronted by.

Why you find Mr. Darwin pertinent here quite escapes me. Is the debate you wish one on Lamarkian views, or Creationist ones?

"An optimist thinks this is the best world possible: a pessimist knows it is."

[Evoman]

38. haha.

"The One Thing that is commonly called "God", and which is more accurately called Providence, acts in all things to the benefit of Mankind."

Lol. Ahhhh...God. Always saving his beloved creatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot .....Praise the lord.


"It's a bitter pill for children to swallow. But grown ups realize that which makes us struggle leads to our most profound growth."

Yep. I'm sure those families that lost their loved ones will profoundly grow, as do most people who lose their children. Or get raped. Or lost their life saving due to illness. The worlds full of lessons just waiting to happen. Happiness!

"At any rate, what I believe matters little."

Less than you probably think, anyways.


"The woman stated her interpretation of what happened."

And just so we make it clear, her interpretation is that god took time out of his busy schedule to help her keep her hands steady and blow away a mentally disturbed man who had already killed several people.

"That DU'ers feel a need to ridicule that is beyond contemptible."

Ridicule the fact that people were killed...not okay. Ridicule the fact that this women believes that that an all powerful deity helped guide her gun...not only NOT contemptible, but reasonable.


"It speaks to a total enslavement to material reality that's every bit as unbalanced as the right wing fundies who take the bible literally."

We are enslaved to material reality. There is nothing else but material reality. A man came into the church (all material). He shot his material bullets into other material beings. Another material being with weapons training shot the material being with the problems with his purely material brain. The material being is no longer alive. Where is the supernatural necessary? And your attempts at being condescending are hilarious, by the way.


"Those who live by a purely Mechanistic world view will die accordingly and really shouldn't bitch about those who treat humans as mere objects. It reeks of hypocrisy."

I don't think I understand this. Don't we all die? Even the people who don't have a purely mechanistic world view?

[The Straight Story]

56. I liken it to physics

The further two masses are apart, the less influence they have over each other.

Add to that, that god is not all powerful and is limited.

[The Magistrate]

57. If, Sir

You accept 'god' is not all powerful and has limits, then your view has consistency, but that view contradicts any view of the deity properly characterized as Christian or Biblical, though it would lie well within various dualistic and polytheistic traditions. The person whose statements triggered this discussion would angrily reject your view as false teaching.

It is, of course, an interesting fact that a great many people who identify themselves as Christians hold to a variety of beliefs that are wholly at odds with Christian dogma, ranging from universal salvation to reincarnation.

[opiate69]

22. Do you seriously NOT see the disconnect here?

"God" was with this woman, making sure she stopped this murderer, but "He" couldn't/wouldn't/didn't do anything to stop him before he killed 4 other people? Do you not see how abjectly offensive that is to the families of those who died? Not mention that at the exact time he was helping the guard, countless other tragedies were playing out across the globe, yet somehow, this woman was "special" enough to warrant "His" help and protection, but the child who died in a car wreck a few states away, or the woman across the globe who was killed by an abusive husband weren't?

[Occulus]

39. Thank you

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the christian idea of God.

Capitalized here because my God obviously isn't the christian god (sic).

[stillcool]

24. It had to come to this...

The bastardization of all things 'God'. "God" is toxic. I guess that's what happens when 'belief' is shaped and molded from the outside in, rather than the inside out.

[ProfessorGAC]

47. Anything Beyond?

Excuse me, but your post is nonsense. Saying that don't accept the concept of a larger reality is not attacking. And, someone like me cannot simply accept your "larger reality" just because you claim it exists.

To expect otherwise is to claim a wisdom that mere humans do not possess. Your post reeks of hubris.
The Professor

[LeftyMom]

55. That's because reality IS physical matter. All else is unproven, hypothetical and unlikely. nt

[jpak]

14. Isn't there some "Commandment" that sez "thou shall not..."

Oh nevermind...

[Mike Daniels]

45. So the guard should have just let the shooter blow a ton of people away?

FYI, it's a lot easier to say shoot to disarm than it is to actually do it in a high pressure environment.

[rucky]

15. God's credit score just went down 40 points. n/t

[TahitiNut]

16. It was just a limited, lead-assisted Rapture.

:eyes:

[Marr]

17. I went to a King's game a couple of weeks ago. Jesus REALLY fucked up.

We would've won, but Jesus made the puck miss the net in the third period.

[AlCzervik]

19. The kings would have had a new stadium by now if God was on their side

instead he makes them choke.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

32. yeah

But we won tonight 4-2! Great game! Nice to see them beat the hated Canucks in person.

[blonndee]

21. I wonder if the first shooter said the same thing. After all, he killed TWO people.

This kind of stuff makes me ill.

[Prefer]

23. Tragedy about two sisters he killed

he was basically a zombie at this point. The way you deal with zombies is to take a shovel and decapitate them. Good thing she prevented him for spraying bullets all inside a crowded place.

[spin]

25. The bottom line...

Somebody had a gun in a place most people consider a "gun free zone". Better yet, they knew how to use it.

Whether she attributes her ability to act with courage and skill to Jesus, Buddha, or the training she received from some firearms instructor is irrelevant.

She did what had to be done to protect other people without regard for her own life.

If the God she believes in exists, she scored a lot of points in her quest for a better afterlife. If not, she's still a hero.

[Lint Head]

27. God had nothing to do with this. God did not let it happen or

prevent it from happening. It happened and the results are known. As far as if someone pays in the afterlife, if you believe in an afterlife, is only known to God. For anyone to say they know the mind of God has a deity complex. The whole point of Christianity is to leave things in the hands of God not to say you know what God does, will do, or thinks.

Only the Spaghetti Monster knows all. :dem:

[provis99]

29. maybe the dead kook thought God was on his side, too

After all, he managed to gun down two before he was himself killed.

[madmom]

60. didn't Jim Jones think God was on his side?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

34. Nice of gawd to ignore all the suffering around the world!

Screw Darfur and the humanitarian crisis in Iraq and Afghanistan! Good to see the big man is always there for gun-toting religious nuts.

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. I am a better person every single day of my life BECAUSE of my belief in God.

Argue with that if you feel that it furthers whatever argument you need to make when a person who has FAITH decides to thank their FAITH for guiding them in the right direction.

God is with me every moment of the day. Every moment. I don't hate Him for my failures, NOR do I credit Him for my successes. That would be vain. I know he's there though. It makes me a better person because He takes away from my eyes the JUDGEMENT that should only be His. I judge NO ONE. That's WAY above my pay-grade. Judge if you must though...

The person who decided to pull the trigger on innocent people was a victim of his own free will. He didn't have FAITH.

Ridicule my belief in God if it makes you feel better about yourself. Believe that a "Bang!" is responsible for everything that you percieve if it justifies your belief in nothing at all.

Power to Ya.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mtnester]

41. God giveth, Gawd taketh away

I just heard on the AM news that they are changing their minds again and saying the wound was self inflicted.

Curious to see how she will explain that using the word God more than 4 times per paragraph.

[Perry Logan]

43. Either God suspended one of the Ten Commandments, or that woman is going to Hell.

[slackmaster]

48. Which one?

Killing in self-defense or defense of others IS NOT MURDER.

[piedmont]

58. Are you fucking seriously in a snit because she saved those people's lives?

[onenote]

46. references to God really freak out some DUers..some time

It interesting how, after any event in which a church going type invokes God, a significant number of DUers feel compelled to criticize, mock,and ridicule the person.

Yet, when a DUer goes through a traumatic experience, like a missing child or a health scare, and it turns out okay, some DUer say things like "Thank God" and nary a peep of criticism is levelled at them. I guess its easy to be hard-assed when its impersonal.

My view is that if believing that a supreme deity helps someone cope with an event, who am I to criticize.

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Does That Include Claiming That The Deity Singled Them Out?

To me, that shouts of monumental hubris, not coping.
The Professor

[The Magistrate]

52. Good To See You, Professor!

You have put your finger on one of my principal problems with this sort of thing as well. Few would accuse me of lacking pride, or a even a high opinion of myself, but the heights of either required to seriously believe myself to be, even for a moment, the focus of the attention of an omnipotent and omnipresent Creator of the Universe are quite beyond my mental horizons.

Best wishes to you and yours for the Holidays, my friend!

"A golf course is a willful and deliberate mis-use of a good rifle range."

[onenote]

53. Is there a difference?

Someone's child disappears. They then are found safe and sound. The parent says "God was looking out for my family". That's hubris. The parent (or friends) say "Thank God the child is safe". Is that really any different -- its just a shorthand for the same sentiment, isn't it. Yet the former is criticized and the latter isn't.

[PassingFair]

54. Turns out the guy SHOT HIMSELF.

Did god do THAT?

Just wondering.

[benEzra]

59. After she shot him several times, and he was lying on the floor bleeding...

i.e., the woman stopped him; he didn't stop himself. Contrary to the movies, guns are not death rays, and an incapacitating (even lethal) wound does not necessarily result in instant unconsciousness.

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The man who killed four people at a church and missionary training center shot himself in the head and died after being hit by shots from a church security officer (sic), police said Tuesday.

Matthew Murray, 24, was struck multiple times by a security officer (sic) at New Life Church Sunday, but his death was ruled a suicide, the El Paso County Coroner's Office concluded after an autopsy.

Murray shot himself in the head, said police Sgt. Skip Arms.

Volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam shot Murray after he entered the church. Though investigators had earlier suggested he killed himself, they credited Assam's bravery with averting a greater tragedy.

Call it providence, coincidence, or good luck, but it's a darn good thing she was there and was armed.

[joshcryer]

61. Yeah, had she said her grandfather was her inspiration or something else.

Her gun coach, her law enforcement instructor, etc, no one would've cared.

Sometimes DUers make Freepers look normal. And that's saying something.