Yes. Another death penalty post.

[cali]

I've been against the death penalty since I was a 10 year old kid. It always horrified me on a visceral level, the way very few things do. It's always seemed Kafka like to me. And sure, I'll read about some horrific crime, and anger will boil up in me; for a moment I'll wish the perpetrator dead. But that's just vengeance, not justice.

I spent 6 years as a victim advocate in the State's Attorney's office. OK, it's Vermont, and we don't have a lot of murders here to begin with, but I did shepherd several families of murder victims through the process. Vermont has no death penalty, and with the exception of 1 family, none of them wished to see the the accused executed.

The death penalty can never be equitably applied. There will always be the potential of executing people innocent of their crimes. It is not a deterrent, and it does not provide closure. Closure comes largely from within.

It is long past time to put an end to state sanctioned killing.

[ulysses]

1. happy to agree wholeheartedly with you on this.

[democrank]

2. I`ve always been against the death penalty.

It`s state-sanctioned barbarism.

[Vickers]

3. I'm beginning to feel that way.

:thumbsup:

[Happyhippychick]

4. Very well said. I especially like the part about

how it's vengeance and not justice. I'll remember that.

I wasn't always opposed to the death penalty but I'll tell you what transformed my thinking. I began to see it as something that wasn't about what I might want if my loved one was killed, it was really about what kind of society I want to live in.

We may not be there yet but hopefully we'll get there.

[nashville_brook]

5. what really gets me about the DP is that it's some poor schmoe's job to be the state-sanctioned

killer -- an otherwise innocent employee is made to become party to a murder s/he has no interest in other than trying feed their family and stay insured.

like, "killing is wrong -- now, go kill that guy so everyone knows how wrong killing is."

lots of job suck, but executioner has to top the list.

[Virginia Dare]

6. Agreed, I'm a long time opponent of the death penalty..

it is inherently discriminatory, among other things.

Timothy McVeigh is a good example of why I don't like it. That p.o.s. should have been left to rot in jail the rest of his days. He wanted to be put to death.

[mike_c]

7. the death penalty is naked revenge, plain and simple....

Not one of our most inspiring motives for doing anything, including other aspects of criminal justice. The outcome of real justice should be the betterment of society-- and those convicted of transgressions, whenever possible. Now one is better off when the state kills. No one.

[cali]

8. Absolutely.

And that includes the families of victims. I do understand that a lot of families go through a stage of feeling vengeful, but they can be helped to get through that.

[progressoid]

10. I know people who acknowledge it's a revenge issue and make no excuses for it.

Too much Rambo or Clint Eastwood or Old Testament I suppose.

[yodermon]

9. Absolutely agree 100%. n/t

[DemGa]

11. I had the same reaction at about the age of seven

Good to see there are people with the same kind of experience.

[Occam Bandage]

12. Absolutely agreed. There is no purpose to it, and it serves no role in a civilized state.

[Deja Q]

16. Neither do the people with continal histories of commiting violent, disgusting crimes who can't be

reformed.

I'd rather have a productive citizen, but there comes a time when hard decisions have to be made...

[Occam Bandage]

17. One can remove a human from society without killing them.

[JitterbugPerfume]

13. The first time I was aware of the death penalty was

The Rosenberg case . If I close my eyes , I can still see the picture of them in the lower left hand side of my local newspaper,and recall the barely disguised glee at their fate.


I hate the death penalty . It is not a case of the guilt ot innocence of the person , I hate it in ANY case.

[flashl]

14. Strongly agree.

"It is long past time to put an end to state sanctioned killing"

[Mike03]

15. Beautiful OP, Cali

It took me a lot longer than it took you to come to these realizations. I applaud your work for the AG.

It has been my experience too that families do not--with some exceptions--either wish for the death penalty to be imposed on the killers of a loved one or feel any gratification afterwards.

Sometimes I am surprised by how merciful families are in this respect, even in the face of truly heinous crimes against children. My change of heart has a lot to do with listening to these families.

[redqueen]

18. Precisely.

Thank you.

[Prophet 451]

19. Disagree

I'm probably going to get flamed here but what the hell...

I won't argue that the way the DP is currently applied is messed up. Nor am I going to argue that it's a deterent, we both know it isn't. However, I think that in certain, very rare cases, the DP should be available. No matter how secure a prison is, there is always a chance that a prisoner may somehow obtain their freedom and for certain (again, rare) prisoners, that risk, no matter how small, is too big a risk to take. I'm not talking about the average criminal here, I'm talking about the level of danger (and the level of evidence used to convict) posed by people like Richard Rameirez or Jeffrey Dahmer or Fred West in this country. The very rare criminal who cannot be rehabilitated, who will remain a danger to the public as long as he lives. Any chance they might escape, no matter how small, is too big a chance to take.

However, nor should the death penalty ever be something we take pride in. It should be, at most, a terrible necessity, applied as quickly and painlessly as possible because it should be something we do not for revenge (and I agree that it is very often used as revenge) but to safeguard the rest of society. The day we come up with some method of ensuring beyond doubt that there is no possibility that such a prisoner could ever become free again (i.e. freezing them in carbonite or something similar) then my support disappears.

That's the practical. Morally, I'm more ambiguous. It is, in the end, a monsterous act which makes monsters of us all and if we must be monsters on occasion, we must also never forget how to be human. In the end, I wouldn't be heartbroken if the death penalty was abolished completely. While I believe it is occasionally necessary, I also know that such a necessity reflects poorly on us as a society, that we can't come up with a better solution. My other half opposes the death penalty entirely, on moral grounds. I can respect that, even agree with it to an extent.

[Gregorian]

20. Thank you.

I'm in total agreement. And always have felt that way.

There was a documentary on prisons in India on Linktv. One of the most liberating things I've ever witnessed was the murderer, and the family of the victim, becoming friends.

I believe there is something that transcends above our typical abilities. I don't know how to say it. But there is a higher level of being that is achievable by all. It comes from love and forgiveness. And there is no alternative to it, but hate and suffering.

I always respond to the calls to stop state sponsored killing. There is something seriously wrong when the human race is unwilling to abandon age old practices that do not work.

[mudesi]

21. Death penalty advocates are CONSERVATIVE

It's also important to take control of the language in this "debate". (I put it in quotes because the pro death penalty people have no arguments and nothing to stand on, just like every other conservative stance on any other issue, which is always based on emotional manipulation, and not facts.)

Being pro death penalty makes one conservative on that issue. The same goes for many other issues, such as opposition to gay marriage, opposition to any kind of gun control whatsoever, opposition to universal health care, etc.

If you are for the death penalty, you are not a "centrist", and you are not a "moderate". You are a conservative.

[fascisthunter]

23. They are also Stupid

The death penalty doesn't do shit for society, yet "believers" believe it does.

[Jacobin]

22. Let me put it this way

The United States wouldn't be able to join the European Union if we happened to be geographically so situated.

The death penalty is a barbaric practice which no developed country will allow.

[Parche]

24. peace?

:shrug: :hi:

[emmadoggy]

25. It took me longer and a lot of thought and introspection to come to the

conclusion you came to at a young age, but I agree with you.

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. Murder is Murder and even more so when it is state sanctioned.

And eye for an eye leaves the whole World blind

[varkam]

27. You're absolutely right in that the DP is not applied equitably.

IIRC, the DP is applied in approximately 1% of capital crimes, and statistically much more likely to be reached as a sentence if the defendant is a minority.