Three arrested in Berkeley protests over Marines..

[Webster Green]

This is still going on right now at (10:00 PM PST) 4 people have now been arrested, according to the TeeVee news. The city council meeting is still going on. Almost the entire Berkeley Police Department is in the streets in front of city hall.

(02-12) 18:30 PST Berkeley - --

Downtown Berkeley became a battleground of its own kind today as about 500 anti-war and pro-military protesters faced off in a public plaza over the Marine Corps' recruiting center in the city. Three protesters - a man and two teenagers - were arrested in separate scuffles, police said.

The City Council is scheduled to decide tonight whether to revoke a letter it approved two weeks ago telling the Marines they are "unwelcome intruders" and should leave. The council's action provoked widespread debate.

In anticipation of the meeting tonight at City Hall, anti-war protesters lined up on one side of Martin Luther King Jr. Way while pro-military groups took control of the other side. Things were peaceful for most of the morning.

But by early afternoon things heated up as more than three dozen police with batons and riot gear formed a line to separate the two sides. About 1 p.m., a man supporting the Marines' presence in Berkeley ventured into the encampment of anti-war group Code Pink and drew a knife.

Police arrested 49-year-old Keith Donald Salvatore of Rocklin (Placer County) for allegedly brandishing the weapon. Salvatore told police he had drawn the knife in self-defense after anti-war protesters wrapped him in a pink banner, said Sgt. Mary Kusmiss, a police spokeswoman.

More: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/12/MN10V0TVP.DTL

[davidinalameda]

1. you have to wonder if the Berkeley council even thought about this before

voting for it

this has BLOWN up in their faces and makes them look like idiots

giving Code Pink a parking permit?

[Pastiche423]

2. Did you read the entire article?

Sounds more like the pro-war people were he ones that looked and acted like idiots. For cripe's sake, one of the warmongers drew a knife and threatened to kill a woman!

Stay strong peacemakers!

[davidinalameda]

3. warmongers?

he was there supporting the Marines recruiting center

the city seemed to have declared war on them

and if they close this one in Berkeley, that's not stopping the Marines from recruiting any place else

this is nothing more than a NIMBY action

what Code Pink was doing is nothing more than what anti-abortion protesters do

they harass people

I have NO respect for Code Pink nor any of their members

[Pastiche423]

4. I have no respect for the military thrusting themselves

on a city that has been known for peace.

[davidinalameda]

5. it is a recruiter's office

why not protest the ROTC program on campus

YES, Berkeley has an ROTC program

http://search.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/regsearch.cgi?words=ROTC&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0

[Pastiche423]

6. Does the ROTC recruit?

[KeineAhnung]

7. What irks me most...

... about the talk that has been coming from the Code Pink side of things the blatant paradoxes in their speech. They need a better spokesman/woman because right now they are coming off as extreme lunatics and if anything are rallying the other side against them in unison.

Actions like that unite conservative and traditional Americans against them and people on the other side of the aisle who might not agree with the Code Pink lunacy are grouped in with them and summarily dismissed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. What's the paradox?

[Raskolnik]

13. Are they protesting *all* military recruitment, or just military recruitment

in areas full of rich white kids with a lot of time on their hands?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. I'd presume all military recruitment.

But they're starting local.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

17. Go find Berkeley's demographics before you embarrass yourself again. n/t

[Raskolnik]

23. Go look at demographics of Code Pink and the protesters before you embarrass yourself again. n/t

[EFerrari]

24. I belong to Code Pink and I lived in Berkeley for over a decade.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The minority community in Berkeley is larger than the state average. They are not rich white kids with time on their hands.

And these kids are targeted by the scum buckets you are defending.

[Raskolnik]

29. If you can only frame this argument in terms of "defending" military recruiters

then I'm not sure you're being intellectually honest.

[EFerrari]

32. I hope you resolve your uncertainty. n/t

[NorCalDem]

123. This is spot on!

"You have no idea what you're talking about.

The minority community in Berkeley is larger than the state average. They are not rich white kids with time on their hands.

And these kids are targeted by the scum buckets you are defending."

[EFerrari]

127. I bought my first house from a black family in Berkeley.

When I remodeled the livingroom, I found a ring and an invitation to a Strawberry Social ca. 1920 in a crawl space and handed those things back to the family.

Berkeley is a great town. :)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

43. No the real paradox is:

Are they opposed to all recruiting or just recruiting during Bush War II?

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. Google is your friend

http://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?id=3911

[EFerrari]

12. Yes. We can't let average Americans talk because

they may sound like lunatics!

We couldn't have that or the 30%ers might have a hissy fit!

:scared:

[Raskolnik]

16. Do you think their actions are reasonable, much less productive?

[EFerrari]

18. What is more reasonable than objecting to our kids being fed into a blender

for Halliburton?

You betchur ass I do.

[Raskolnik]

20. I don't know, how about aiming that protest at the people actually responsible

rather than the people bearing the costs of W's idiocy?

[EFerrari]

22. Direct action is always more effective, that's why.

Are you defending the same recruiters that lie to our kids to get their signature?

Shame on you.

[Raskolnik]

25. Yes, direct action taken against those actually responsible.

When Bush was trying to fuck with Social Security, did you go down to the local social security office and scream at the people trying to do their jobs? (Jeebus I hope not)

Protesting military recruiters is intellectually lazy and amazingly counterproductive for those of us trying to point out to people that it is possible to be against a war without being against the people who have to go and get their asses shot in that war.

[EFerrari]

27. Code Pink is protesting the scum bucket recruiters, not working Marines.

Try again.

[Raskolnik]

36. If you honestly think those kinds of tactics help in the long run,

I urge you to get out of Berkeley for a spell and see what the rest of the country is like.

Tactics like this do nothing more than paint anti-war activists as foot-stomping children who can't separate the policy makers from those that bear the cost of the policy. It makes the real work for everyone else that much harder, and it only benefits your sense of self-righteousness.

[EFerrari]

39. LOL! Because results are so counter productive.

As you have nothing, you resort to a personal attack.

I don't live in Berkeley now.

I am widely traveled.

And I know what work looks like.

:)

[Raskolnik]

47. Of course some results *are* counterproductive in the long run.

Protests like this serve no purpose other than short-term gratification, they turn off more people than they convince, and make the real work harder to accomplish.

[EFerrari]

50. Short term, kids walking up to that office think twice.

And they get to live.

That is gratifying.

[Raskolnik]

57. Short-term gratification with no concern for the bigger picture?

What could go wrong?

[EFerrari]

59. Right. We could keep some kids alive. That couldn't be good

long term.

[Raskolnik]

76. Being wilfully obtuse to the point I'm making does not make your argument.

[EFerrari]

79. I think my argument has been made.

There is nothing obtuse about it.

In Berkeley, Code Pink said no to recruiting our kids for Bush's war for profit.

You don't like that? Fine. We're not going to stop any time soon.

[davidinalameda]

41. the recruiters are working Marines

and how about Code Pink's demonstration outside Walter Reed?

was that an appropriate place for a demonstration?

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. Did you miss all the media coverage of the deplorable conditions at Walter Reed?

Have you not heard about how our Iraq war vets are being abandoned? How the VA's budget has been cut every year since Bush took office?

That is why Code Pink is at Walter Reed and has been there for many years BEFORE the pictures of the mold and the deplorable conditions were plastered all over your television.

Now please explain how wanting to PREVENT more injured soldiers and calling attention to the fact that they are mistreated is somehow inappropriate.

[davidinalameda]

155. Code Pink wasn't protesting the conditions at Walter Reed

they were protesting the war

it is so inappropriate for them to be protesting at a hospital

these men and women are trying to get well; if they want to support the troops, do something else other than standing outside the hospital

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. Sounds like you don't know much about Code Pink

Educate yourself: http://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?list=type&type=81

[davidinalameda]

163. I've seen reports of where they had coffins on the sidewalk

that is NOT a discreet demonstration

I still think they're doing a disservice to the men and women who have served by protesting in front of a hospital

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

46. Those 'scum bucket rectuiters'

*are* working marines! many of whom have fought in battle some of whom recruit now because they were injured. I would bet those 'scum bucket recruiters' can better give the pluses and minuses of joining the military than members of a pacifist group..

[EFerrari]

52. First, you lose your bragging rights when you con CHILDREN.

Second, that "pacifist group" is chock full o' vets.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

64. First , you lose your moral high horse when you assume all people

who join the military are conned children, my brother was very aware of the decision he made as was his wife. Both of whom have served this nation through war and peace...

Second, regarding 'chock full o' vets'... so were the nutballs on the other side of the street whats your point?

[EFerrari]

67. I never said all people who sign up are children.

I said these mofos prey on children. Which they do.

So, now vets are nutballs? Who is anti-military here?

Really, let's just stop. We won't ever agree.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

72. Ok well stop but not before I take the words you put into my mouth out and rinse thouroughly

1a) 18, 19, 20 not children... Old enough to vote...
1b) many people who are in their mid20's are recruited

2) Did I say 'vets' are nutballs or code pink? seems to me you saying my comment implied all vets are nutballs is as bad as neocons implying people who are anti war are anti vet..

[EFerrari]

74. You may be a dad of two angels but apparently you don't know

that recruiters target kids.

You may want to rectify that and soon.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

81. yea yea whatever

I have allot of military experience in my family and when my girls are old enough if they wanted to join the military I would support them in that. If they were 17 right now I would do my damnedest to have them hold out until the current regime is out of power...

[EFerrari]

117. "Whatever" has gotten a lot of people dead. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH

Recruiters started harassing my kids when they were 14. That's not old enough.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

142. Was your kid walking by a recruiting station when he was grabbed and pulled through the door?

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. No they came to our house and gave him a ride

[INDIA]

119. You are obviously ignorant to what a USMC OSO office is and does...let me educate you.

I already responded to one of your posts in another thread a week back, and explained to you the difference. You chose to not respond, and you obviously ignored the content of my post.

Let's try once more, this is for your benefit...

A Marine Corps Officer Selection Office selects candidates from a competitive pool of applicants to send them to Officer Candidates School in Quantico, VA. Candidates are all in college, and have completed AT LEAST their freshman year of college, if they have not already graduated. You can attend OCS either immediately after or during college (in the summer months).

The program is highly selective. Candidates must be in top physical condition, have good grades, and a clean record, and even then some aren't selected to even go to OCS. Once at OCS, the washout rate is very high, with candidates being kicked out for not passing written/physical/leadership tests, or simply choosing to go home since it's too hard, or not for them.

There is NO "dotted line" to sign until you have completely finished OCS and graduated college. You are free to walk away from the program at any time up until your commissioning, which can only take place if you have graduated college. Let me assure you that those who make it to their commissioning ceremony are fully dedicated to becoming Marine Corps Officers.

While I was at OCS, I met two candidates from UC Berkeley. One was rumored to have scored a perfect 1600 on his SAT, he is now in flight school. Both are happy with their career choices. I chose a different path. Apparently YOU and CODE PINK feel that they shouldn't be able to pursue their chosen career path, either by blocking the entrance to their OSO office, or moving it out of town, to a less convenient location.

You are ignorant as to what an OSO is, and the OCS program. Yet you espouse total crap about how these guys "prey on children." Your ridiculous arguments would hold slightly more weight if this was an enlisted recruiting station...but it's not. You and Code Pink are ignorant of what you're even protesting about. It's fucking pathetic. And laughable. I'm laughing at this whole thing. You are all a giant joke.

[EFerrari]

120. Nope. They go to communities with minority children

That's established fact. It's disgusting that you are defending them.

They do prey on children and on their poverty.

Shame on you.

[INDIA]

128. You do not understand the difference between an OSO (Berkeley)

and an enlisted recruiting station. You are ignorant of the difference. Don't worry, you're not alone. What Code Pink and Answer and World Can't Wait and the town council were protesting against was an OFFICER SELECTION OFFICE....NOT an enlisted recruiting station.

What...they go into minority communities looking for college students and recent college graduates? (and community colleges don't qualify for OCS)

You obviously didn't read my post. Seriously, take 5 minutes. You'll be a lot smarter.

[EFerrari]

130. You can't parse this into respectablity.

[INDIA]

137. Willful ignorance. Pathetic. n/t

[EFerrari]

138. Personal attack in lieu of reason. Pathetic.

[INDIA]

143. Just admit it. Earlier on in this thread you had absolutely no idea...

what you were talking about. You were defending Code Pink's right to protest this OSO office because they "prey on children." I'm telling you that OSO's don't do that, and yet you still argue. If Code Pink is protesting this office, they are basically protesting the Marine Corps specifically, or the entire military. But Code Pink isn't anti-military right?

For somebody who has absolutely no idea what you were talking about, you certainly have a STRONG opinion on the matter. Kinda like *.

[EFerrari]

144. Please keep attacking me and making my case.

:)

[INDIA]

147. My only case is that you're wrong. And won't admit it. Keep proving MY case. nt

[EFerrari]

151. We are not wrong to deny these lying sacks of sh@t more victims.

And, after this thread is dead or locked, we still won't be wrong.

[INDIA]

162. No. You'll still be wrong. You still have no idea what you're protesting against. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Those scum bucket recruiters lied to my kids!

They lied to Cindy Sheehan's son. He is dead now. How many more have they lied to?

Did you see Farenheit 911? There is a graphic example in that film of scum bucket recruiters lying to kids.

Those scum bucket recruiters use video games to show kids how much 'fun' it is to go to war and kill people.

Both IVAW and Code Pink have worked tirelessly to expose their lies. I applaud their efforts.

[NeedleCast]

122. Scum bucket recruiters

Are you refering just to the recruiters in Berk, or military recruting in general? Do you think such broad brush-strokes are warrented?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

45. Code Pink..

Was not talking, they were denying people access to a public building, thats *not* talking..

[EFerrari]

48. Big bad Code Pink was denying red blooded 'Murikans

access to a public building.

:rofl:

Why aren't you in Iraq? If a bunch of middle aged women are so scary, I guess Iraq isn't the place you want to be.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

Im not in Iraq because:

1) no way on Gods earth I would pass a physical
2) Too old
3) oh yea... *Im against this war*

--

But I do have family over there so I would appreciate it if you would not make light of it. I also have family who severed between 1984-2003 whos lives were greatly enriched by service in the military.

To sum up:

Antiwar - Cool
AntiMilitary - Nutty

Cool?

[EFerrari]

62. Anti military = Reich wing talking point.

Got it?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

69. Lets get this straight

I just said opposing this war is not anti military..

Calling members of the military who have served 'scum bags' *is* anti military..

..

99.999% of people opposing this war are not anti military these few nutballs are giving those people a bad name and basically loading the gun the ReThugs will use in November..

[EFerrari]

73. Calliing scum bag recruiters that lie to kids to make their quota

is calling a scum bag a scum bag.

That has nothing to do with our service people.

That has everything to do with scum bags.

The "anti-military" talking point gets no traction here. Not even a blink.

[NeedleCast]

124. So your argument is that all recruiters lie?

This is quite a revelation to me, as both myself and the dozens of military and ex-military friends I have would say that the recruiter was pretty straight forward with them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

156. Shhhh dont you dare confuse the temper tantrum with facts

and experience of people who went through the process..

[Pastiche423]

28. I LOVE CODE PINK!

I am also a member.

[EFerrari]

33. My sistah!

People get really upset when we get effective, don't they?


Where is that pancake bunny?

:toast:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

49. What you have effectively done

Is turned an anti war movement with broad appeal to an anti military movement with a much more narrow appeal...

[EFerrari]

55. That would be the wingnut talking point.

Thanks, Dad!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

66. Its only an effective talking point if its true

Thanks for giving them ammo...

What code pink *could* have done is just stand outside and hand out information about the Iraq conflict love and educate these kids. With all the Vietnam vets that are members they really could have connected about the Iraq debacle.

Instead they went too far (as usual)

[EFerrari]

71. No, talking points are only effective if they get repeated.

And Code Pink also does exactly what you suggest with literature and education.

My oh my. We sure don't like people acting up. They might make us look silly! They might cause a fuss. Better to let the killing go on. The slaughter is much more respectable.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

78. "And Code Pink also does exactly what you suggest with literature and education."

And for that I can respect them, really I can...

"My oh my. We sure don't like people acting up."

Do you like it when folks block abortion clinics?

"They might make us look silly!"

Silly I can handle, pie in the face stuff is great but when you paint all recruiters as enemies of the people you are beyond silly youre damn right hysterical (not not the amusing kind)

"Better to let the killing go on."

Ummm lets, for the moment, assume this tantrum works and the Berkley recruiting station shuts down do you really think thats going to stop the killing? All an extremest position like (recruiters are scumbags and marines get out of Berkly does) is harden people who otherwise might have joined you in stopping this atrocity called a war..

[EFerrari]

83. Extremist? When was the last time that being against the war

could credibly be called extemist?

Maybe actually using our First Amendment rights seems extreme but, to sheep, most expressions probably seem extreme.

We have plenty of support here, but thanks for caring!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

85. This crap is not about the war

When you start going after the marines even having an office in a city you have crossed the line into being anti-military..

Protest the war, march in the strets go into classrooms with information but damn it the military is being hurt by this war far more than the members of code pink and the very people who should be supporting them are treating them like enemies of the state..

"Maybe actually using our First Amendment rights seems extreme but, to sheep, most expressions probably seem extreme."

So are abortion protesters blocking buildings just expressing their first amendment rights..

[EFerrari]

87. Baloney.

You keep conflating our service people with recruiters who target minority kids. Thank goodness, we're more clear headed than you are.

I don't think Code Pink needs your tactical advice. We're doing fine.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

101. Most of those recuiters have served in the field

Oh yea code pinks done a bang up job this week... Marines still there and Berkley backpedaling... way to go guys..

[EFerrari]

103. Do you live in a video game or something?

Are you arguing that Code Pink did too much or not enough?

I love these posts.

lol

[leftchick]

70. lol!

you nailed it!

:hi:

[EFerrari]

90. I guess we don't have enough Democrats supporting our kids

being fed into the meat grinder.

F#ck me, what is the matter with people?

[davidinalameda]

37. uh yeah they do

with their offer of scholarships and whatnot; they maintain offices on campus; just like the recruiter maintain offices

I have yet to see a military recruiter standing around on the street pulling people into his office and forcing them to sign enlistment documents

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. They hang out at the malls and visit the schools though

They don't need to hang out on the corner.

When my kids were freshman in high school (age 14) the recruiters began calling our house to pull them in. They also came over uninvited. Oh and the calls and the visits were right after school WHEN MY KIDS WERE HOME ALONE.

One recruiter told my 14 year old son not to tell his parents that the recruiter had come by. Another one told him the army would buy him a car when he turned 16 if he signed a paper (at age 14) agreeing to join the Marines when he graduated from high school.

My personal experience taught me that recruiters are indeed scum bags who prey upon kids. Kids too young to make a major decision to join the military. If they were only on college campuses recruiting, I would have no objection. But going after 14 year olds is just despicable.

[INDIA]

131. You're wrong. You don't even know what this protest is about, do you.?

Sorry to type in caps, but I don't think my message is getting through your head. THIS WAS AN OFFICER SELECTION OFFICE...NOT AND ENLISTED RECRUITING STATION. THERE IS A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.

Educate yourself. Ignorance sucks.

www.ocs.usmc.mil

[EFerrari]

133. Because a dead officer is so different than a dead grunt?

Ignorance really does suck.

[INDIA]

140. But....but....but....

I thought it was a "established fact" that these guys you're protesting against were "preying upon children."

So now you know the difference, and realize you were dead wrong...I know you won't admit it.

An ADULT in COLLEGE should be able to choses to go into whatever fucking profession he wants.

[EFerrari]

141. It is established fact.

Kid are their prey because they need so many more of them. They put out feelers for officer material and hook in kids who aren't.

I've been to that office. I've seen it.

You either need a reality check or a better line.

[INDIA]

146. "It is an established fact"

Jesus Christ, you are amazing. OSO's START recruiting at the age of adulthood, with college students. Candidates don't sign a contract until they've slaved through 12 weeks of OCS hell and graduated college, usually around the age of 22. SPECIFICALLY TELL ME HOW YOU THINK THIS IS PREYING ON CHILDREN.

"They put out feelers for officer material and hook in kids who aren't."

Certainly not at my OSO office. Not at any other I've ever heard of. Prove it.

How many children are college graduates?

You just need to admit it. There is no rational reason for Code Pink to protest an OSO office, other than being anti-military in general. But I'm sure you and Code Pink would deny that.

[EFerrari]

149. You apparently cannot or will not distinguish between policy and practice.

How old are you or whose payroll are you on? Seriously.

And, I feel no obligation to satisfy or frustrate your projective bullsh@t.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. Yes it does suck

So does preying upon kids. Maybe the recruiters at this office in Berkley would be smarter spending their time policing their cohorts who lie to kids.

[INDIA]

164. Let me sum up this argument we're having...

You are defending the protest of this OSO office by your group Code Pink because you allege they lie, target children, target the poor, and brainwash kids so they can fight for Halliburton. :eyes:

I then explain to you that an OSO office is basically a ROTC office without college affiliation and without college scholarships to hand out. I go into detail and explain to you your mistake. All the behavior you allege can be attributed to an enlisted recruiting station, although I wouldn't frame their activities the same way as you.

I explain your mistake, and you continue to argue and defend the right to protest an office that does none of the things you allege. You then make up a bunch of lies about putting "feelers" out to get kids for enlistment. That's a straight up lie that you pulled directly out of your ass. OSO's DO NOT do that. Admit it, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about or protesting against. Just admit it, you are straight up anti-military, and so is Code Pink. This whole "we're protesting because they go after kids" is bullshit. You're just protesting the Marines, and the military in general. Admit it. Get it off your chest. Make believe time is over.

[davidinalameda]

154. that's why you need to pay attention to what the kids are doing

and that's why kids can't sign contracts until they're 18

I don't think they should be allowed in schools either but that's something that Congress needs to address

until there is an alternative for kids who join the military for money for school, they're going to gravitate towards the military

and some kids want the military for a career

whether we like it or not, we still need a military

[AngryAmish]

40. yes

[Raskolnik]

11. Are the young men and women of Berkeley so much more precious

than the young men and women on the South Side of Chicago?

[EFerrari]

14. The parents of Berkeley seem to think so. n/t

[Raskolnik]

19. They certainly seem to.

[EFerrari]

21. Berkeley has a long history of standing up for their people.

It's a shame more American cities don't.

[midnight]

126. U.S. MILITARY CIVIL DISTURBANCE PLANNING:

U.S. MILITARY CIVIL DISTURBANCE PLANNING:
THE WAR AT HOME
By Frank Morales

Under the heading of "civil disturbance planning", theU.S. military is training troops and police to suppress democratic oppositionin America. The master plan, Department of Defense Civil Disturbance Plan55-2, is code-named, "Operation Garden Plot". Originated in 1968, the "operationalplan" has been updated over the last three decades, most recently in 1991.The plan was activated during the Los Angeles "riots" of 1992, and morethan likely during the recent anti-WTO "Battle in Seattle."

Current U.S. military preparations for suppressingdomestic civil disturbance, including the training of National Guard troopsand police, are part of a long history of American "internal security"measures dating back to the first American Revolution. Generally, thesemeasures have sought to thwart the aims of social justice movements, embodyingthe concept that within the civilian body politic lurks an enemy that oneday the military might have to fight, or at least be ordered to fight.Equipped with flexible "military operations in urban terrain" and "operationsother than war" doctrine, lethal and "less-than-lethal" high-tech weaponry,US "armed forces" and "elite" militarized police units are being trainedto eradicate "disorder", "disturbance" and "civil disobedience" in America.Further, it may very well be that police/military "civil disturbance" planningis the animating force and the overarching logic behind the incrediblenationwide growth of police paramilitary units, a growth which coincidentallymirrors rising levels of police violence directed at the American people,particularly "non-white" poor and working people. Military spokespeople,"judge advocates" (lawyers) and their congressional supporters aggressivelytake the position that legal obstacles to military involvement in domesticlaw enforcement civil disturbance operations, such as the 1878 Posse ComitatusAct, have been nullified. Legislated "exceptions" and private THE WAR AT HOME

commercializationof various aspects of U.S. military-law enforcement efforts have supposedlyremoved their activities from the legal reach of the "public domain". Possiblyillegal, ostensible "training" scenarios like the recent "Operation UrbanWarrior" no-notice "urban terrain" war games, which took place in dozensof American cities, are thinly disguised "civil disturbance suppression"exercises. Meanwhile, President Clinton recently appointed a "domesticmilitary czar", a sort of national chief of police. You can bet that heis well versed in Garden Plot requirements involved in "homeland defense".

Ominously, many assume that the training of militaryand police forces to suppress "outlawed" behavior of citizens, along withthe creation of extensive and sophisticated "emergency" social responsenetworks set to spring into action in the event of "civil unrest", is prudentand acceptable in a democracy. And yet, does not this assumption beg thequestion as to what civil unrest is? One could argue for example, thatcivil disturbance is nothing less than democracy in action, a message tothe powers-that-be that the people want change. In this instance "disturbingbehavior" may actually be the exercising of ones' right to resist oppression.Unfortunately, the American corporate/military directorship, which hasthe power to enforce its' definition of "disorder", sees democracy as athreat and permanent counter-revolution as a "national security" requirement.The elite military/corporate sponsors of Garden Plot have their reasonsfor civil disturbance contingency planning. Lets' call it the paranoiaof the thief. Their rationale is simple: self-preservation. Fostering severeand targeted "austerity", massive inequality and unbridled greed, whileshifting more and more billions to the generals and the rich, the de-regulated"entities of force" and their interlocking corporate directors know quitewell what their policies are engendering, namely, a growing resistance. http://www.911truth.org/osamas/morales.html

[EFerrari]

132. Thank you, midnight.

:hi:

[Pastiche423]

What does precious have to do w/anything?

[EFerrari]

31. That poster is promulgating the idea that white lilbrul elites

don't think their precious babies have to serve in a war of choice. Twisted beyond belief.

Berkeley is cool because of two reasons. It has a large, vigorous black community that has more or less been the heart and soul of that city since it was founded and because the university brings people in from all over the world. White librul elites have very little to do with it unless you are one in Berkeley in which case you get to enjoy living there.

[Raskolnik]

42. Merely pointing out that I doubt very much that I will be seing Code Pinkertons

protesting military recruitment on the South Side of Chicago any time soon.

[EFerrari]

44. So, what is wrong with Chicago? Here's the chapter and the link.

http://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?list=type&type=54

[Raskolnik]

54. I'm not disputing that they exist, I'm predicting that I won't see them trying

to shut down recruiters that stay within certain areas of the city.

[EFerrari]

56. Well, what are you doing today?

:shrug:

[Raskolnik]

60. Well, first I plan on doing no harm.

Which puts me one up on the Berkeley Code Pinkers.

[EFerrari]

61. How do you figure that? You do nothing while our kids

are sent into a needless, criminal war? Doesn't that make you an accomplice?

Thanks, I'll stick to Code Pink.

[Raskolnik]

82. Ha! To assume that people who aren't breaking their arms patting themselves on the back

like the Berkeley Code Pinkers are doing "nothing" really sums up our differences.

[EFerrari]

84. Who has time to pat anything?

:wtf:

We're busy here.

We're helping put up a Democratic challenger to Pelosi, still working on the war and on impeachment. Plus local stuff.

Your Code Pink is too small. :)

[Raskolnik]

88. Apparently quite a few people in Berkeley, that's who.

Because this protest accomplishes nothing more than self-gratification.

[EFerrari]

89. No matter how many times you say that, it doesn't make it true.

But, be my guest.

lol

[Raskolnik]

91. And no matter how many times Code Pinkertons stamp their feet and act like short-sighted fools

it doesn't accomplish a damn thing other than make the real work more difficult.

[EFerrari]

93. Silly insults, unsupported assertions. Keep 'em.

We need a lot fewer of you arm chair critics and a lot more people like Leslie who is fasting and who got a meeting with John Conyers tomorrow.

Keep your opinions. When you're ready to do something, get back to me.

[Raskolnik]

96. Ha again! The presumption and self-righteousness is amazing!

If you think your own particular brand of activism is the most effective, much less the only, game in town, take a deep breath and get out of your echo-chamber.

[EFerrari]

98. We're doing just fine without your approval.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. Um yeah Code Pink is indeed in Chicago on the south side

and so is Vets for Peace. I have a couple friends in Chicago in both organizations and yes they do indeed go to the south side to do counter recruitment.

[INDIA]

136. How about a city with a massive state university?

Since...you know...Officer Candidates are in college? OSO's are always near colleges and universities. The candidates are all college grads or college students. They do their training during the summer instead of ROTC, who do their training year round during school. This OSO is basically a ROTC office without Berkeley affiliation.

Does that make sense? Am I making it through to you and the rest of Code Pink?

Although I wouldn't agree with it, protesting an enlisted recruiting station would at least make sense to me. Those are the guys to talk to high shcool students (children) and you sometimes hear about using shady recruiting tactics in the news.

Protesting an OSO office is...well...stupid. Pass that along to Medea, will you?

[EFerrari]

139. When was the last time you were "stupid" enough to make a difference?

Never, I'm guessing.

Leave our kids alone. You don't get them.

[INDIA]

148. Sorry I tried to use logic and facts with you.

You haven't read a word I wrote.

Protesting an OSO office makes no sense. Believe it or not, there are people out there who don't share your viewpoint. They should be able to carry on and choose their own path/career without ignorant, clueless assholes trying to block their entrance or move their office out of town.

Some people *gasp* WANT to be officers in the Marine Corps. And they work pretty fucking hard to achieve that goal. Nobody is being preyed upon or brainwashed who makes it to their commissioning ceremony.

[EFerrari]

152. Denial is a dangerous state, especially for other people.

[INDIA]

153. I was a candidate, and you're telling me I'm in denial about the

Officer Selection Process? lol. Don't you think after spending 3 years as a candidate, I MIGHT KNOW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE PROCESS THAN YOU? lol. What a joke you are. Why don't you go tell that woman all about the town that SHE LIVES IN. Or tell the guy in post #17 to stop "embarrassing himself."

Who really just embarrassed themselves expat?

[Pastiche423]

145. No

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Sounds like warmongering to me.

Brandishing the weapon doesn't look particularly good either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. Do you respect the recruiters who LIE to CHILDREN??

They are deserving of your respect yet Code Pink and other groups who are working to SAVE LIVES don't get your respect?

Once this damn illegal war is over, we will have Code Pink to thank for everything they did to bring it to an end.

[DangerDave921]

8. Berkley is wrong on this one

Folks have a right to join the military, and many Dems have enjoyed successful careers in the military. To unilaterally decide that no recruitment is tolerated is just plain silly.

[Pastiche423]

30. There are many recruiting offices in the East Bay

No one is denying anyone the right to join the military.

[DangerDave921]

35. How about this?

What if a city shut down an abortion clinic with an explanation of: "Hey, there's a clinic just across the city line you can go to." Would that be OK?

Berkeley was doing its best to restrict access to recruitment. Same thing.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

51. Thank YOU!

For that perfect analogy..

[proud2BlibKansan]

129. It would be perfect if the abortion clinic talked 14 year old kids into having abortions

[INDIA]

157. Except OSO's "recruit" college age adults only.

And those "kids" don't sign a contract until they reach at least age 21-22. Stop being ignorant. The protest was over an OSO office, not a recruiting station.

There is no good reason to protest. And not good reason for you to continue arguing when you're dead ass wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

158. I oppose all recruiting

So I support the efforts to shut down this office in Berkley.

Now please explain how that makes me 'dead ass wrong".

[INDIA]

165. So that means you support a draft then...

or no military at all. Both equally brainless choices. There is no reason or rationale behind your thinking.


You're "dead ass wrong" because you claim OSO's target and brainwash and trick poor children into joining the armed forces. I explained to you that OSO offices do not do that. Code Pink is protesting an OSO. OSOs take applications from college age adults so that they MIGHT make it into and through OCS and earn a commission, although they can opt out at any time.

You're basically opposed to a different viewpoint, i.e., people who like the military/USMC and want to make a career out of it. You're trying to impede the decision and actions of rational thinking adults who think differently than you. That is suppressing an opposing viewpoint. How fascist of you.

[slackmaster]

80. Oh noes, you didn't...

:toast:

[Pastiche423]

115. lol

Same thing? Not even close.

[KeineAhnung]

26. Well...

Its mostly because first I think if they are going to have a position. "ie. Anti-War, Anti-Military etc..." then they should have the fortitude to stick with it instead of backing down when the funding for their lunch programs is cut.

Also, I believe that all their talk of free speech seems only to apply to people they agree with. In this case they feel that kicking the recruiters, out because a majority might want it, is ok. I wonder what they would think if the majority of the neighboring city voted to treat an organization that they believed in along the same standards of pornographers and sex offenders ( ie. 1000 meters from schools, parks etc..)

[EFerrari]

38. All their talk of free speech?!

Using the google to look up "free speech movement" might be a good use of your time.

And, Berkeley does have a Christo-fascist neighbor, Albany. It's about a mile square and very red.

[Mz Pip]

53. WTF

are you talking about? Albany? Very red??? :rofl: Maybe 35 years ago, but not now. I live in Albany. THe whole city council is Democratic and pretty damn progressive. The streets are lined with homes with Obama or Hillary signs.

Christo-fascist. Jeez. If you don't live in the area anymore it might be a good idea if you get your facts straight before you start talking that kind of trash about a very progressive community.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[EFerrari]

58. Whatever, Mz Pip. Maybe you should take a good look around. n/t

[Mz Pip]

63. And what

will I see since you seem to be such an expert on the community I have lived in for 33 years? You tell me what I'm supposed to see.

Whatever. Indeed.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[EFerrari]

65. Why don't you start with, um, segregation? n/t

[Mz Pip]

68. Um, what segregation?

Care to be a bit more explicit? You aren't making sense.

[EFerrari]

75. Do you really live in Albany or are you just pulling my leg?

:shrug:

[Mz Pip]

77. Yes, I really live in Albany.

I have since 1975. Why would I make something like that up?

[EFerrari]

86. I lived on Stannage Street for a number of years.

In a sea of white people.

The school district was vigilant that none of those "Berkeley kids" came over the border. The cops wore their issues on their sleeve.

Albany is where the white flight went from Berkeley. This can't be news to you if you live there? :shrug:

[Mz Pip]

92. White people

made up about 60% of the population according to the 2000 census. It's even more diverse now. The Christo-fascist crack was completely untrue and uncalled for. Next time you're in town you might want to stop by the local Code Pink office on Solano Av between Masonic and Evelyn.

http://www.albanyca.org/home/about_albany.html

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Raskolnik]

94. Don't confuse the issue with facts!

[EFerrari]

97. You've never been to Albany. You didn't even know

there were black people in Berkeley.

That's hilarious.

[Raskolnik]

99. Apparently neither have you.

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

[EFerrari]

100. I lived in Albany and dealt with that community's issues more directly

than Mz Pip did, apparently.

[Raskolnik]

102. You played loose with facts, and got called on it.

Have the intellectual honesty to let it go.

[EFerrari]

104. Um, no. That didn't happen.

Nice try, though.

[Raskolnik]

105. Since you obviously have to have the last word, please be me guest.

And have a lovely evening being warmed by your own sense of self-satisfaction.

[EFerrari]

110. The John Birch Society had an office on San Pablo about two blocks

from Solano, the main drag in Albany. Maybe Mz Pip was just unaware of this community effort.

[Mz Pip]

107. Oh really?

Now you claim to know about my community involvement? You want a resume'? You can't be that much of an expert if you think Albany is a Christo-fascist community. :crazy:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[EFerrari]

111. Is that John Birch office closed down?

[Mz Pip]

112. At least 20 years ago

maybe more. There's a Thai import shop there now.

[EFerrari]

113. Nope. Not twenty years ago because I still drove by it

then. We lived in the Cal student housing in those days.

In any case, I'm not wishing anything bad on Albany. But it was the kind of place where you could open such an office on prime real estate. If things have changed, that's good news.

[EFerrari]

95. Sorry if I hit a nerve. n/t

[katty]

34. it wouldn't be berkeley if they didn't protest this-they're used to it

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. And look who is being violent!!

About 1 p.m., a man supporting the Marines' presence in Berkeley ventured into the encampment of anti-war group Code Pink and drew a knife.

Police arrested 49-year-old Keith Donald Salvatore of Rocklin (Placer County) for allegedly brandishing the weapon. Salvatore told police he had drawn the knife in self-defense after anti-war protesters wrapped him in a pink banner, said Sgt. Mary Kusmiss, a police spokeswoman.

A Code Pink activist from San Ramon said the man threatened to kill her, Kumiss said.


two boys on skateboards got into a yelling and swearing match with the Marine supporters. Fists flew, and some witnesses claimed the pro-Marine side struck the two students with a flagpole.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

108. K&R for funny fetal photo

[Bucky]

134. This is the best response in the thread.

Thank you!

[SexyGalFan]

160. echoes of Vietnam

Let's remain vigilant against those who wish to usurp our civil rights.