In your opinion- Is "Ace McCain" off limits?

[underpants]

you can google "Ace McCain" to read about McCain's rather dubious flying history (he lost 5 planes over the years as a Naval pilot) but I am NOT posting this as a backdoor means to draw attention to that I have a question.

:shrug: ¿Do YOU think that this part of his history is political poison? :shrug:

I have posted before that I thought that his wife should be off limits. I am having some doubt about that mostly because she dodders over him like a school marm (she is in almost every single photo I see of him) so she is clearly putting herself into the fray.

This is where over thinking can come into play-Is she/they setting her out as bait to lure in attacks and then counter with "that's not fair" ? God knows they are going to empty everything at either Hillary (they have a file) or Obama. Maybe NOT bringing up "Ace MCcain" is over thinking it or playing TOO nice.

:shrug:

Your opinion?

[tekisui]

1. Just keep it as the ace in the hole.

If push comes to shove and he drags out some rotten shit, all bets are off.

[meegbear]

3. Exactly ...

if they're gonna pull up any bullshit from the past, then so be it.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Ace in the Hole.....LOL......I gatta believe it.....

:toast:

[bryant69]

2. I think it's dangerous and unnecessary

It is close to a comment Limbaugh made back when he hated McCain about how the goal of being a soldier was not to be captured.

I think we need to nail him on policy issues and on the fact that he is basically going to be a third term for the Bush administration.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[davidinalameda]

6. after this primary season

we have to go after McCain in a very non mud slinging way

we have to attack him on the issues

[Virginia Dare]

29. Why do you think that will work this time..

when it failed miserably when Kerry tried it back in 2004. Do you think Bush had Kerry beat on issues?

[davidinalameda]

41. Kerry sat back and took the criticism

he did nothing to counteract it

If the candidate gets hit with a negative attack, he/she needs to step up and address it

then, he/she needs to say very clearly that he/she is not running a negative campaign and is only running on the issues blah blah blah

they need to turn the tables and tell people that they taking the high road and won't stoop to name calling

basically doing some negative campaigning without actually doing it

[atreides1]

11. Personally I Hate Limpballs

But he does have a point, having served, my two goals were to avoid being shot and to not get captured!

But yes we need to hit McCain on the issues, especially on the economy!

[Ordr]

4. Off limits?

Probably not. Stupid and needlessly diversionary? Probably.

[NYVet]

7. We yelled about John Kerry's Vietnam experience being used by Repubs

For us to bring up John McCain's Vietnam record shows us to be hypocrites.

Focus on McCain the politican, not McCain the war veteran.

[underpants]

8. Good point BUT

this isn't made up. No one is going to try to retract an affidavit like George Elliott did.

This is fact. There is no disputing that.

Again just asking (I agree with you).

[atreides1]

10. That Depends

If McCain uses his military record to show that he's better at National Security matters, then his whole record needs to be used.

Not just the plums of his military career!

[Wizard777]

30. Yes, but like impeachment. The republicans have set the bar.

They have said this is fair grounds. So they have no moral ground to complain from. But they won't let that stop them. Like Bush's use of torture. It only evil when other people do it. Not when they do it.

[Virginia Dare]

31. So what, let's take their swiftboats and shove them..

where the sun don't shine. Time for them to taste their own medicine. I hope they choke on it.

[annabanana]

46. ummm . . .They were LYING., , , ,

not analogous

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

9. Like George W., McCain is the product of nepotism...

Given John McCain's disastrous career as a naval aviator, one can only conclude that it was the influence of his father the Rear Admiral (and his grandfather the Rear Admiral) that kept him in the service. He is as grossly incompetent in the military as George W. Bush was in business.

Fair game, I say. And let's not forget his collaboration with his Vietnamese captors. I believe a contempraneous account (in US News) referred to McCain as a "stool pidgeon" for his willingness to provide information in return for medical care.

[pegleg]

12. Not according to those who were closest to him in Hanoi.

He did though turn down early release offered to him because of his father's status. Trying to denigrate McCain will most likely backfire. And it must be remembered who started the bashing - the very one's he's representing now.

[acmavm]

16. Bullshit. Look downwind at my post. After turning on his countrymen,

his service, and his country, he could HARDLY take early release.

[pegleg]

23. Those who were closest to him have a different story.

I don't support him for president, but his 5+ years as a POW speaks for itself and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

[acmavm]

28. Whatever. The guy admitted in his book he talked. He's a sleeze

bag. And what would make his 'service' record honorable anyway. Because he was over killing Vietnamese people in a prior illegal, immoral war against innocent civilians who didn't do a fucking thing to us?

Some people have a really bizarre definition of honor.

[Wilber_Stool]

36. McCain signed a War Crimes confession.

That was why he could have gotten out early. It was because of this that the Military changed the limits of the information that a prisoner could give. No longer were they limited to name, rank, and serial number. It extended to the avoidance of torture.
I guess they had him primed for a political life as early as that.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Do you think the GOP would consider it off limits?

The Swiftboating of Kerry comes to mind.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Honestly...It Would Be Nice To See The Right Wing Drive that One...

Democrats don't need to play with or up to McCain's war record. His POW status is akin to Hillary's sex and Obama's color...territory you only go with great peril. It takes away from many, many other weaknesses that make Gramps such a weak candidate.

There's a shadow 527 out there that tried to slime him and I suspect they'll be back again in some form or fashion. I'm listening to C-SPIN right now taking nothing but repugnican callers and the volume of anti-Gramps calls is far outnumbering those who like him...and many who say they'll vote for him sure sound wobbly. Gramps is trying to win the wingnuts over now, but I don't see it working...and if he dares to piss in their cornflakes, they won't hesitate to let him have it.

[acmavm]

15. Hell no. Go check out with a shitload of Viet Nam vets that served

during his time in captivity think. Just check out how long it took him to sell out his comrades and country (he started spilling his guts after 4 days telling EVERYTHING he knew). He did it for medical care. He got treatment in a hospital reserved for high VC party officials as well. There were other POWs who didn't do this. A lot of 'em died.

He's been blocking the release of the debriefings of other prisoners of war. There are families of guys who never came home and they want to see these debriefings. See what happened to THEIR loved ones. McCain has consistently blocked their release.

The minute the guy got into politics he showed that he was still a turncoat. He sold out his position and constituents to Charles Keating.

NO, NOTHING IS OFF LIMITS.

[Scratchee]

17. Give it a shot

In those days, there was a 1-in-4 chance that a career Naval Aviator would be killed while flying. Lots more crashes than there are today. According to what I have read, it sounds as if one of his crashes may have been due to negligence (I don't buy the "engine failure was disproved" story...what'd he do, accidently shut down his engine, then decide not to restart it?) Other than that...getting shot down? Getting hit by somebody else's missile on the deck of a carrier? I don't think that will go very far. The one crash is fair game, but I don't think the whole batch is worth much, considering he does not go around claiming he was a great pilot. A little embarrassing at the most. In fact, doesn't he own up to his military mediocrity in his bio?

[underpants]

18. Welcome to DU

:hi:

I don't see any mention as such here
http://www.johnmccain.com/About/

[Scratchee]

20. I meant his book

I think I recall (though I didn't read the book) that he mentioned his low placement in his Academy class, and that he was a bit of a goofball in flight school.

Of course I wouldn't expect him or anyone else to highlight his past weaknesses in an official online bio!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

19. The more I hear dire warnings in the MSM that it's completely off limits

the more I think that this is an Achille's Heel for him.

But the moment the Democratic nominee so much as whispers that he is anything less than Gen. Patton and Gen. Lee, all rolled up into one, the screeching monkeys and the braying hounds of the RW faction in the MSM will come out in full force decrying the words of non military loser daring to speak ill of this Flyboy superhero.

Whew, I think I'll fully fulfilled my daily requirement of metaphors and allegories. :-)

[L. Coyote]

21. First, Cindy is just there in case he falls. Rs worry about a Dole moment, falling off stage

:rofl:

Seriously, I would focus on his academic record. Everyone can relate to that, since we all grow up with report cards.

And we all remember some moranic, least-likely-to-succeed dufus at the bottom of the class, and can relate to McCain with these terms.

Getting shot down may not be a sign of greatness, but it can be blamed on the Vietnamese.

Being at the bottom of his class is either his own fault, or, as a deficit in abilities, can be blamed on his rearing!

We might also want to counter him on his claim he is "the last, great hope for mankind" made during the speech Tues. night.

Did Bush approve that? :rofl:

Like a deer in headlights, when John realized he was reading teleprompter LIES, he knew he could not vote for himself. :rofl:

[Bigmack]

22. I won't attack McCain's record....

.. but I will direct people to some people who will.

Col. Dave Hackworth has something to say... http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hacker_2.htm

and so does our old buddy Ted Sampley in this rightwing blog that quotes him extensively.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd59.htm

The Viet Vets against McCain have some shit, too... http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

I have never told anyone that I believe this stuff, but I have sent the above URLs to anybody I know who said anything against Kerry's war record. I asked those people to notice that Corsi and Sampley and the Viet Vets comments are similar to the crap they said about Kerry. Either Corsi and the others are just liars about both men, or they are right about both men.

I don't think it's necessary to attack McCain on his war record, but it certainly is fair that his critics on the right get the same kind of airing that they did when Kerry was running. Let's just let Corsi, Sampley, et al do our dirty work for us.

Where's the MSM prime-time discussion of any of the accusations against McCain from his rightwingnut accusers?

[spanone]

24. was kerry's HEROISM off the table? FUCK NO

[ShaneGR]

25. Is it ok to attack someone who got shot down while at war and held in a PoW camp for 5 years?

I think its disgusting, just like it was for Kerry.

[Wizard777]

32. Only if Mc Cain tries to present himself as somekind of security expert.

Frankly I'm going with anyone that didn't get captured. If you can't provide for your own personal security in preventing yourself from being captured. Then why should I trust you to provide for the nations security in preventing terrorists attacks?

[madokie]

26. Hey AWOL didn't matter one iota then so why would ace mac's flying history

and especially the fact he lost 5 planes matter now
I like the sound of that, ace mac ;-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." - Mark Twain

Service in the military seems to have been raised to be the sacredest of cows nowadays and deserves some mincing.

[Recursion]

33. Attacking McCain's military record loses. Period

Moreover, it was wrong when they did it to Kerry, and it would be wrong if we did it to McCain. He served our country honorably and courageously, and I will not watch our party shit on that.

[Jack Rabbit]

34. It would be nice if more people accepted moral ambiguity

We Americans too often think of the good guy in a white hat and the bad guy in a black hat. Even if they weren't wearing hats, the good guy is the one who helps old ladies cross the street and rescues kittens from trees and the bad guy is the one who beats his wife and robs the change from the tin cups of homeless veterans. There's no in between.

That is a false picture of our place in the moral universe. In reality, we are all in between.

Now accepting that means that one can honor Senator McCain for his service to America and suffering the outrages of a Vietnamese prison camp while excoriating him for his desire to continue the war in Iraq and expand that folly to Iran. That is exactly what we should be doing.

[dommyluc]

35. Why should it be off-limits?

He is constantly running on his military record, so why shouldn't his recklessness as a pilot be an issue, since it may have a bearing on howand why he was captured by the North Vietnamese in the first place? Also, can anyone tell me why being captured by the enemy supposedly gives you foreign policy bona fides?
Also, I am not a Hillary Clinton fan, especially after her ass-kissing remarks about McSame, but after what the Rethugs have done to her the last 20 years, why should McSame's Stepford Wife be off-limits? Why shouldn't we talk about Cindy's little drug problem and her scrape with the DEA that the MSM is so hesitant to talk about? I only hope the McCain camp is stupid enough to bring up Obama's past drug use. People in glass houses, don't you know. And how come none of these pious Rethug SOBs are bringing up the fact that Cindy McCain was THE OTHER WOMAN? Guess we better forget about that one Commandment concerning adultery. I guess it's OK to cheat on your wife, as long as you're not a fag like I am.
Off-limits, my ass. I hope we crucify that lying, cheating, Bush-lovin' John McCain. And I will do so without any guilt whatsoever.

[underpants]

38. Welcome to DU

:hi:


and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way at all

:hi:

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

37. NO MORE MR. NICE GUY

Personally, I am sick unto death of the Democrats' always playing nice and fair. If someone is bullying you, you don't gulp meekly and ask for more - you punch him in the nose and kick him in the balls. I am so ready to see SOME Democrat do just this. I don't care who the opponent is - you know the Repugs are bullies and will play dirty, so you go back at them twice as hard.

[UTUSN]

39. Just do it. Wingnuts have NO qualms about ridiculing our people!1 n/t

[alfredo]

40. At least one of them was not his fault. The fire on the carrier was not

his fault. We really don't want to go there unless we have something really bad and rock solid, you know, flying drunk or something of that magnitude.

[elizfeelinggreat]

42. turn it around

Anyone who saw the "swift boating" of John Kerry shouldn't feel this need to honor John McCain's service, the opposition has defined "fair play" in this regard and there's no fairness involved.

[chat_noir]

43. McCain Lost Five U.S. Navy Aircraft, says Vet Group

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain’s second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. “Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula,” Timberg wrote, “he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.”

McCain’s third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, “I’ve got a flameout” and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain’s fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain’s plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

http://stiffrightjab.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/mccain-lost-five-us-navy-aircraft-says-vet-group/

Oh, yeah, the fifth aircraft...

McCain Brags To Vets: "I intercepted a surface to air missile with my own plane"

[elizfeelinggreat]

44. what?

"McCain’s third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game."

Good grief.

[Pharlo]

45. Cindy McCain's hovering reminds me of Nancy Reagan.

I think John McCain is more ill than is being let on by the campaign. That is also one reason why I regret the end of the Republican primary. It gives him a much needed break.

What the Clinton/Obama campaigns need to stop doing is going after each other so heatedly and BOTH sides keep attacking McCain and his issues so he can't rest. Yes, they'll both need to distinguish them self from their primary opponent, but KEEP McCain on the defensive - vigorously on the defensive.

[petronius]

47. McCain served in a dangerous profession in a time of war, and that deserves respect

We honor our (D) veterans for their service, and it would be hypocritical to seek out loopholes to avoid honoring (R) veterans. As another poster pointed out, it's not necessary to reject everything in McCain's past to demonstrate that he''d be a bad president - people aren't black and white, and the worst candidate in the world will still have some positive traits.

As for the crashes on his record: I'm not a veteran or a pilot, but looking at that list I see only one that IMO could be blameworthy. I'll leave it up to the Navy to determine (as they must have done) whether or not he was incompetent...

[Forrest Greene]

48. In Fact, If Memory Serves

...knocking out five aircraft was precisely the requirement for claiming the title "Ace."

It's just that they usually had to be the other side's aircraft.