Have we achieved equality between men and women?

[undeterred]

Poll question: Have we achieved equality between men and women?

[gatorboy]

1. Oh, it's pretty obvious who's in control of that relationship.

That look of surrender on the left says it all!

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. I don't know...let me ask my penis.

Oh...wait...

[geardaddy]

25. I nominate thee for a DUzy.

:rofl:

[femrap]

36. That was very good!!! LOL nt

[Jed Dilligan]

3. Impossible to judge etc. was my vote

Privileged white women have it much easier than working-class men of color, period. There is no argument to be made against that that doesn't make you look completely ridiculous.

I do agree that, below the level of the class that benefited most from the women's movement, women are much worse off than their male counterparts at every level.

[pbca]

5. I think that

it can be said that women of every class are worse off than men of that same class. Very recent studies show that even high level professional (priveleged) white women are not paid at the same rate, and do not recieve (for example) the same level of medical care as men who are at the same level of privelege.

[Jed Dilligan]

7. Maybe, but it's not a major concern for me

When privileged women compare their struggle to the black struggle for civil rights, they make themselves absurd. Lower pay isn't oppression when you are already earning more than any one worker deserves.

[pbca]

8. It does still show a lack of equality though.

Truthfully very few in North America have much to complain about - there are many countries in the world where the standard of living is much, much lower - where there is even less access to health care, food, clean water, where a larger percentage of the population is impoverished and where they enjoy fewer rights and privledges and where their access to legitimate political avenues for progress are cut off.

[Jed Dilligan]

11. Actually relative poverty is more damaging than absolute poverty

so I guess rich women are oppressed, but, I just can't bring myself to care.

[pbca]

13. That's fine

I'm not saying the inequality of wealthy women should be a top priority - only that there is not equality.

[DURHAM D]

9. The only person making that comparison is you. Good grief. eom

[Jed Dilligan]

12. Good grief back atcha

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5020449

[Romulox]

22. Careful! You're not supposed to talk about CLASS

Just accept that working class men oppress wealthy women, would you?

:sarcasm:

[pbca]

4. Absolutely not

and it shows in virtually every study on any aspect of the subject. There are even recent reports that women recieve inferior medical treatment.

I dislike though being called sexist for not supporting Hillary (which I have been several times.) It is not a matter of prejudice against women (for me at least) it is a matter of disliking Hillary as an individual.

[Breeze54]

15. Agreed! - Women get less of everything, it seems.

Black Women Get Less Breast Cancer Treatment - Cancer Information ...
www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=84396

Women Less Likely to Get Heart Defibrillators - Heart Disease and ...
Two studies documenting these findings echo previous research,
and confirm that little ....
Women Less Likely to Get Heart Defibrillators Related Articles ...
www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=84267

Rochester Study Shows Many Women Get Less Chemo Than Recommended ...
www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=1348

Study: Women, blacks less likely to get implantable heart devices ...
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmusa/is_200710/ai_n20528513

For Women, Marital Distress Means Less Relief From Stress
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080101093852.htm


Apr 9, 2007 ... Yet women consistently earn less than men.
law.vanderbilt.edu/article-search/article-detail/index.aspx?nid=101

Obese women less likely to be screened for cancer
www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/testing/new_research/20070508b.jsp

UMHS Press Release: Women less likely to get top heart attack care
www.med.umich.edu/opm/newspage/2005/womenheartattack.htm

Married women unite! Husbands do less housework - USATODAY.com
www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-28-housework_N.htm

Poor women get too few mammograms - Women's health- msnbc.com
The current study wasn’t designed to show why poorer women were less likely to receive...
She and her colleagues are planning further research to better ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23566800/ - 19 hours ago

Women With Chest Pain Get Less Treatment
The study showed that women with a high risk for having heart attacks were about a third
less likely than high-risk men to have an invasive diagnostic ...
www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516479

More and more and more...

:(

[katty]

6. cute kids!

[undeterred]

14. I think it would be fun to raise boy/girl twins.

A lot of work, but fun!

[Breeze54]

10. Women and Economic Disparities

Women and Economic Disparities
http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewshartmann.html

snip--> Women earn only 77 percent of what men earn.

Q: Are the earnings disparities between men and women due to discrimination?

Hartmann: Basically, yes, some of the disparities certainly are. There were two fairly comprehensive literature reviews produced in the last five years, one of them by the White House Council of Economic Advisers during the Clinton years, on this issue. They concluded that about a third of the gross wage gap — for example, the 23 percent that exists as of 2001 — is not explainable by other factors that should explain wages, and is probably due to discrimination.

more....

[undeterred]

18. My State Senator proposed a bill to study wage differences

between men and women in various fields of employment. I think this is great- the only problem is that in my field I am usually the only woman. Women drop out because the discrimination is so bad. There are women managers, and they see it, but it is really difficult to combat. The older I get, the worse it is. Men start to notice age discrimination too, and of course they are shocked, having never experienced discrimination of any kind. I am in computer networking.

[Breeze54]

19. I was one of four

women in technical support. I hear you loud and clear!!!

Not just wage discrimination either. Shitty hours too!

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. How true is that, really?

If a man and woman are doing the exact same job, does the man get paid more?

I've not seen it.

Does a female psychologist with a PhD earn less than a male psychologist with a PhD? Does a female administrative assistant make less than a male administrative assistant?

Male dominated professions tend to be higher paying and female dominated professions. But put a man in the female profession, he earns what they earn - and visa versa.

[Breeze54]

26. "If a man and woman are doing the exact same job, does the man get paid more?" - YES!

"If a man and woman are doing the exact same job, does the man get paid more?"

So because you've not 'seen it'; it doesn't exist? Check how many complaints are filed at the EOC!

The disparity falls off when you get into the professional jobs. Read the article.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. I AM that administrative assistant.

In four departments, there are four of us - myself and three women. One woman makes more than me - she's been here 5 years longer. I make more than the other two women, both of whom have been here several years less than I.

Pay grade and seniority. That's all that counts, here. Now, maybe it's different in the private sector, but as the state comprises a significant portion of the work force, and setting the bar, I have to wonder how much of it is just, dare I say, propaganda.

I don't doubt there is some discrimination, and some occassional disparity - I think it is the exception, not the rule. Times HAVE changed since the 50s and 60s.

[Breeze54]

34. No, it's reality, not propaganda and btw? In the 50's I was in diapers...

:eyes:

In the private sector they make you sign non-disclosures so that you won't discuss your wages.
But we did anyway and I learned that even the new punks were being hired at a higher rate and
I had seniority and that wasn't on just one job. But when I worked as a private contractor, I
did earn more. But women are paid less a lot and I'm sure the EOC has the complaints to prove it.

[femrap]

38. One thing has changed from the '60's...

at least women aren't fired when they become pregnant.

I bet you're going to call me a liar....because you haven't seen it.

You sound like a know-it-all type....ageist as well.

[PeaceNikki]

30. Lots and lots of data on this

Other factors to consider that *I'VE* seen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-female_income_disparity_in_the_USA

Men get more credit for their work
Some argue that work by men is often subjectively seen as higher-quality than objectively equal or better work by women (Goldin and Rouse, 1997; Johnson, 1997). This can impact who is offered mentoring, who is given a job assignment, who is offered a promotion, and so on - and all of these factors in turn have an effect on the gender earnings gap.

[femrap]

39. I had a male friend that I worked

with...I gave him my ideas to bring up at the meeting with the boss....the same ones I had said a couple of weeks earlier that got zip recognition. But male friend brings them up and boss is happy! This totally blew my male friend's mind. He couldn't believe it. I had told him this would happen.

[PeaceNikki]

41. And I work for a CFO who won't address women directly.

Even if a female in the room is the resident expert on a topic, he will always defer to a male. He will ask all males in the room for input and completely disregard the women. Anytime a women offers input, he will defer to a male for "verification" of its accuracy.

It's subtle, in a sick way, and goes wholly unnoticed by the men in a group until pointed out.

When I mentioned this to a male co-worker friend, he was amazed but retorted in confusion with "but CFO has all women working for him in his department, surely he's not sexist!".

My response "yes, because CFO pays them a fraction of what males would demand and always keeps his "ladies" in their place. His position of power is safe and his need for control is met."

The fact that his sexism is so second-nature and goes largly unnoticed makes it even sadder for me. It is a testament to far we really have to go to be taken seriously.

[femrap]

43. That made me physically sick.

I hope his wife/girlfriend/sister/mother ridicules him and often.

How do they get like that?

[PeaceNikki]

44. The saving grace for me is that the other execs are totally the opposite.

Including the CEO and COO to whom he reports. They appreciate strong women and support me on a very regular basis.

[femrap]

45. That's great....

I worked in Corporations for years...they pretty much ate up my soul. I hope I don't have to go back to one any time soon.

[undeterred]

31. Yes, it happens all the time

People don't talk about their salaries because its in poor taste or its forbidden by the company.

I worked at a place where there were eight programmers - 6 men and 2 women. When a new manager took over, she let the 2 women know that even though the group had been together for almost 10 years and had roughly equivalent skills, their salaries were at the bottom. They were brought in at a lower rate and given smaller raises. It was impossible for the manager to catch them up to their co-workers and they were furious. One of them was a single woman- I remember that she couldn't hire a contractor to fix her bathroom so she was showering at the YMCA and working on it by herself on the weekends. Meanwhile one of her male co-workers designed and built his own house.

I am in networking and my hourly at a recent gig was right below the cutoff for overtime- so on the project that meant that I got time and a half for overtime. None of the men were getting it because their hourly rate was over that rate. That meant all of them were getting a higher rate than I was. Well I'm sure my paycheck was just as big because of the overtime, but the fact that my rate was lower for the exact same work is pure bullshit.

It doesn't surprise me that men are unaware of this, but believe me, women know.

[femrap]

37. Talk to Ms. Ledbetter who worked at

Goodyear (or was it Goodrich?) as the only female Regional Mgr. She made significantly less and the SCOTUS with Roberts and Alito told her to 'fuck off.' Kennedy is sponsoring a bill to rectify this.

Most employers don't allow you to discuss your salary. How do you know what people in thousands of occupations make? I don't think you have the stats to back up what you believe.

[margotb822]

16. And, of course, we have women who don't help

The people who think "women don't belong" working along side men. We can move forward if we can't support each other.

[ismnotwasm]

17. Hell no

For this you need a poll?

[tom_paine]

20. This man says, "Not even close." n/t

[XemaSab]

23. I voted no, but I think that's really hard to quantify

You can look at wage disparity, yes, but "women's work" is still often unpaid.

Most women with families are housekeepers, nannies, drivers, coaches, teachers, nurses, cooks... even after a working mom goes home her day is not even close to over. Also, women with kids can't devote the time to work that even working fathers can put in.

I think we're getting to an era where some fields are starting to see parity in pay and conditions, but there's a whole socioeconomic bag of tricks there that we still have to work on.

[Breeze54]

27. "women with kids can't devote the time to work that even working fathers can put in" - BS!!!

That's baloney! That's the myth that men, some women and employers
keep repeating! :grr: That doesn't make it true.

[XemaSab]

33. I'm thinking particularly of my former boss

she took an average of an afternoon off a week for her kids.

Did her husband do that? No. She was left holding the bag. x(

[femrap]

40. The United Nations puts NO VALUE

on all of the work done by women in the world...all of that farming, carrying water, educating, baby sitting, cooking....NOT ONE CENT!!!

Marilyn Waring from New Zealand wrote a great book on this....until women's work has a dollar value on it, we ain't going anywhere.

[MichiganVote]

24. Any women here pay $4300 to screw a guy recently?

[Breeze54]

29. Here? Rather personal question, don't you think? - Try Paris and Brittany!

;)

[bain_sidhe]

28. couldn't vote because

you didn't have a

"HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHA...ow, I think I hurt myself..."

choice.

[nomorenomore08]

35. No, but I don't think it's a simple black-and-white issue either.

I can understand why some would think we've achieved equality of a sort, especially when you compare today to 50 years ago, let alone 100 years ago when women couldn't even vote. But unfortunately, things like wage disparity and constricting gender roles (the latter for both sexes) seem to be persistent phenomena.

Ask me again in a few decades.

[femrap]

42. Studies at colleges today have

shown that the students are placing themselves into very strict gender roles...pretty disappointing, but considering how the media today portrays the genders, I guess it was bound to happen.

Sad.

[rucky]

46. According to Woody Guthrie...

Ten hundred books could I write you about her
Cause I felt if I could know her
I would know all women

And they've not been any too well known
For brains and planning and organized thinking
But I'm sure the women are equal
And they may be ahead of the men

Yet I wouldn't spread such a rumor around
Cause one organizes the other
And sometimes the most lost and wasted
Attract the most balanced and sane

And the wild and the reckless take up
With the clocked and the timed
And the mixture is all of us
And we're still mixing

But never never never
Never could have it been done
If the women hadn't entered into the deal
Like she came along to me
And all creeds and kinds and colors

Of us are blending
Till I suppose ten million years from now
We'll all be just alike

Same color, same size, working together
And maybe we'll have all of the fascists
Out of the way by then
Maybe so

But never never never
Never could have it been done
If the women hadn't entered into the deal
Like she came along to me

[Zuiderelle]

47. We won't have achieved equality until we are as fairly represented in our government as men.