Mumia Abu Jamal

[Ordr]

Guilty?
Innocent?

Edit: I forgot to say that I think he's guilty.

[dysfunctional press]

1. guilty. and exactly where he deserves to be.

behind bars.

[KG]

2. not sure.

but his trial was a sham. he should be retried.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Unfair trial.

Give him a new trial or let him go.

[DangerDave921]

4. So freakin' guilty. eom

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Do you have any links

so that people who don't know anything about this case can then read and comment, please?

[Ordr]

7. Wiki

His Wiki page is the best I can do right now since I'm about to leave work but I'm sure others will provide more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu_Jamal

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Ok, so this isn't something that just happened

I was confused. Thanks for the citation.

[Dhalgren]

6. His trial was rigged, so none of us know the truth.

Anyone who says he is guilty is talking out of his/her ass, because without a fair trial we cannot know.

[KG]

10. he was a black guy with a dead white cop nearby. who needs a trial?

:eyes:

[Dhalgren]

13. That was about the size of it, from my view point...

:eyes: to the issue

and :hi: to you!

[selador]

15. he got a fair trial... read the transcripts

did you read the trial documents or are you relying on biased media accounts and hype?

http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/pcra/95-08-11.html#singletary
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/pcra/95-08-14.html#jones
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/pcra/95-08-10.html#harmon
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/pcra/95-08-02.html#harkins
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/Days/7-3-82.html
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/Days/6-28-82.html
http://www.justice4danielfaulkner.com/Days/6-29-82.html#jones

etc.

[Dhalgren]

16. I've read the transcripts (or parts of them) and I have read the

recantations. This was a poorly conducted trial, period. You have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that. Why is everyone so afraid of retrials? People are always so belligerent whenever the issue of a retrial comes up...hmmm...

[selador]

18. i can respect that

ime, the VAST majority of people who think he's innocent (and to an extent - those who thought he got an unfair trial) are just woefully ignorant of case facts.

i can respect those who have thoroughly researched and still think it was unfair. such as you.

i disagree with your conclusion, but i can respect opposing viewpoints.

[Dhalgren]

21. One thing that i would ask you, your opinion, as to Mumia's lawyer.

In some of the transcripts and in subsequent investigations, it appears that the defense lawyer was not up to the challenge. There were so many instances where it seems to me (albeit in hindsight) that the lawyer should have conducted his defense better. This is one of Mumia's points of contention - that he should have had a better lawyer.

[selador]

25. i don't disagree that mumia

could have had a better lawyer.

legally speaking, there is no requirement that the defense attorney be excellent or very qualified.

without researching, i am speaking off the top of my head, but i believe the legal standard is "competent" representation.

mumia did have the opportunity to appeal his verdict if he thought his representation was incompetent.

from what i have read of the transcripts imo - his representation was competent.

there is NO reasonable doubt in my mind - based on the facts i have seen - that mumia was guilty.

it is certainly possible that if he had an exceptionally qualified defense attorney he might have gotten off. see: OJ for instance.

i also have no doubt that wealthy defendants have an advantage in that they can hire the absolute best attorneys who can win cases that middle of the road attorneys might not - in many cases where the guy is obviously guilty. a very good defense attorney can throw up lots of smoke, which is exactly what you are supposed to do when the facts are mostly against you - which was what mumia faced in this case.

i don't agree with mumia that his attorney did not meet accepted standards of representation.

[defendandprotect]

28. There were questions about the lawyer .... and I believe a lack of funds to properly

represent Mumia ---

[defendandprotect]

29. Didn't this end up with testimony that someone had actually put a "hit" out on the cop---???

[selador]

30. yes

i am aware those claims were made.

from what i have read, he had competent representation.

the reality is - even with police and prosecutors - everybody is on a budget.

no publically appointed defense counsel even in a capital case has unlimited funds.

[defendandprotect]

47. This went beyond anything like that; this was brutal denial of essentials ---

[defendandprotect]

27. As I recall this, there were heavily racist and threatening comments by Judge against Mumia ......

This was, again, a very poor neighborhood where residents -- i.e., "witnesses" --- can easily
be threatened by police.

As I recall it, at least two of the witnesses said that they were threatened.

I'm trying to reread what I can find tonight --- and evidently there are some new photos
of the murder scene --

[Dhalgren]

45. Yeah, I have never liked this case, from the beginning.

It has nothing to do with "celebrity", it has to do with simple justice. We need not just a color blind justice system, but a money blind one as well. Until that happens, we have to hold the government's feet to the fire in every case...

[defendandprotect]

48. Mumia was an active journalist and not liked by those who he was challenging ---

[flvegan]

8. Lots of potential in this thread.

:popcorn:

Mumia threads almost NEVER disappoint.

[Dhalgren]

55. You realize, of course, that that popcorn has...bom-bom-bom...

COW BUTTER ON IT!!!???

:pals:

[YOY]

9. Obviously rigged trial, but strong evidence presented pointed to guilty.

There was some opposing evidence.

The whole thing needs to be retried.

That's about it.

[defendandprotect]

11. Innocent . . .

[defendandprotect]

14. Pacifica Radio may still have some info on this; they were active in trying

to get him released ---

The old files contain a great deal of info ---

I'll check later this evening for some of the old info --- and maybe there's a website for
him?

[selador]

31. the evidence against him is pretty overwhelming

if you actually just step back and look at the totality of the circumstances, it's one of the stronger homicide cases out there.

are there discrepancies? yup. just like in any case i've ever seen.

you could have a guy rob a bank in broad daylight in front of 20 witnesses and be caught on scene - there would still be some discrepancies.

but the case against mumia is strong, and i have no reasonable doubt as to his guilt

[defendandprotect]

51. Disagree . . . the "eyewitnesses" were intimidated . . .

some of them, as I recall, were under threat re drug cases, conveniently ---
and at least two of them, as I recall, recanted and told quite a different version of
what happened.

In fact, as I mentioned above, there is also testimony that some interested people didn't like
the stand this particular cop was taking against them and arranged to have him taken out.

Meanwhile, there are new photos --- which I haven't either had a chance to look at ---

I used to be quite familiar with this case, but it will take a while now to catch up with
what has happened recently and to review the whole thing ---

[selador]

12. guilty

there are two main questions...

1) did the trial evidence support the guilty verdict? imo, yes. undoubtedly. very strong case

2) was the trial fair. that's a more complex question. but imo, the answer is also yes.

fwiw, the DA's office posted (years ago...not sure if its still there) literally scores of pages of trial documents.

i read them and this was a strong case.

i'll try to find the link if anybody is interested

[alittlelark]

36. Curious Question..... WHY are you sooo

obsessed with the Mumia case?

I find it rather odd.

[selador]

37. i am?

just respondin to a thread.

for me what makes the case so galling is that (imo AND the opinion of the jury) the guy is a killer, and it's depressing that he is so lionized by so many.

it's a total cult of personality thang.

[alittlelark]

38. You are responding and responding and resp... to multiple posters

.... what's the obsession?

[selador]

41. spare me

the ad hominems. it's not an obsession.

i simply find him a disgusting person, a cold blooded killer.

that's all well and good. but the fact that many people lionize him and think he is some sort of hero is just ridiculous imo and i will respond with MY opinion, as others do with theirs.

cult of personality is always scary and dangerous. doubly so when the subject of idolatry is somebody like this character.

i don't think he's worth the electrons to START a post on, but if somebody else does i will respond with my opinion

and if anybody would like to discuss case facts, that would be fine. i've studied the case, as i study hundreds of criminal cases. his is one of many

[alittlelark]

43. My, my.... you are a bit OBSESSIVE about the man.

Did he kill a friend of yours or is this just a 'random obsession'?

The # of 'electrons' you have spent on him is amazing.



Those who study 'hundreds of criminal cases' are generall either professionals or criminals (in their heads).... or theyare in the "GET A LIFE" group.

[selador]

44. spare me the ad hominems

and those who study criminal cases such as myself aren't obsessed

if instead of being a snarky kneejerk namecaller, you would have ASKED i would have told you why i have studied his case and many others.

but since you didn't.

i'm interested in justice. imo, justice has not been served in the case of this character. because his sentence hasn't been carried out

[defendandprotect]

52. It would seem doubtful that anyone who has ever heard Mumia speak would call him

a "digusting" person ---

He's highly intelligent and spiritual ---

This "cult of personality" you're talking about could be compared with Jesus, could it not?

So what you're really saying is that you think he uses his power for evil ---

Meanwhile, again, I think anyone who is familiar at all with Mumia understands that he is just
the opposite.

The last I heard of this case, at least two witnesses told how they had been threatened with
imprisonment unless they saw things the way the police wanted them seen --
they've told completely different stories now in recanting.

Additionally, someone else has come forward to say that this police officer wasn't cooperating
the way some in the neighborhood thought that he should with influential people --- and
that there were instructions to take him out.

I think we owe it to the family of this officer to find the people who actually had the officer killed ---

[selador]

56. you are kidding me right

"a "digusting" person ---

He's highly intelligent and spiritual ---"

apart from that pesky "murder thang" (rolls eyes)

as for the "family of the officer"...

i doubt you realize that maureen faulkner has written a book, runs a website and is 100% convinced that he is both guilty, and has played people like a fiddle

but yes, in brief. i do find him a disgusting murderer. intelligent? not particularly, although what does intelligence have to do with character and being a good person? nothing, last i checked.

he has fully plugged into the cult of personality. the very fact that you (i try to avoid it) and others refer to him by his first name i find consistent with that. he's Mumia!

it's like sanjaya, or madonna, etc. a cult of personality.


not to slag either madonna or sanjaya who are (as far as i know) perfectly nice people.

[DS1]

17. "somehow associated with the anti-war movement"

because you can't go to any protest without seeing at least one "Free Mumia" sign in the back, and hearing one guy go totally off-topic during his speech and bringing it up.

[slackmaster]

19. Guilty

:nuke:

[Xithras]

22. Guilty. He'd be convicted in any court, even today.

Certain facts about the case are unassailable and are admitted by even Mumia himself. Mumia's brother attacked Faulkner, and Faulkner was trying to arrest him. Mumia ran over to the site of the arrest, which had escalated to a fight at this point, to see if he could help. Mumia was armed with a revolver. Mumia was shot several times by Faulkner before Faulkner died.

These facts aren't in dispute by either side.

Mumia claims that a small crowd had gathered, and that he was simply in the crowd when another unidentified man stepped out and shot the officer. He can't explain why Faulkner shot HIM in return. Of this crowd that he claims existed, no witnesses have ever come forward to support his story.

On the other hand, there WERE witnesses who claimed that Mumia ran up, pulled his own gun, and shot the officer himself. Several times, point blank, and that Faulkner shot Mumia while trying to defend himself.

Even if you strip out the questionable witness statements, which have been the primary source of controversy since the trial, he'd be convicted. The circumstantial case against him is strong enough to convict without them.

[MaryCeleste]

23. I agree

Even without the questioned statements, there is a lot of physical evidence.

[varkam]

24. Regardless of guilt or innocence, he deserves a new trial.

And even if guilty, I don't think he deserves to be on death row...of course, that's because I don't think anyone should be there. Ever.

[Snarkturian Clone]

26. According to Google Earth

this happened 723 ft away from my house... not that it helps prove anything, just wanted to say...

Anyway, imo, he's guilty. I think that all the celebrities and others that stand behind Mumia should focus their attention on the hundreds of ACTUAL wrongly-accused innocent people in jail that have way more evidence.

[GoneOffShore]

32. Guilty, guilty, guilty

[nomorenomore08]

33. Is Leonard Peltier guilty? And either way, how would we know with any certainty?

Neither of these men, from what I've read about their respective cases, received a fair trial. The bias against them was so strong, in large part due to their status as "activists" (read: agitators against the Man... too frightening for rich white Republicans...), that no one but the men themselves can know for sure what really happened.

[walldude]

39. Don't know about the Mumia case but Peltier is innocent

that is a fact. Even the prosecuters have said that the trial was a sham. That was my first bit of disillusion with Bill Clinton. He promised to pardon Peltier and reneged..

[defendandprotect]

53. Yes, another one of those cases of challenging established power ----

[FredScuttle]

34. Of course, in the annals of American justice

a black man charged with shooting a white cop is automatically guilty.

:eyes:

[RamboLiberal]

35. Guilty - And for those arguing he should get a new trial

Mumia was the fool at his first trial turning it into a politcal showcase and sabotaging his own defense by trying for much of the time to act as his own attorney or to have the unqualified John Africa serve as his lawyer.

IMHO he's always been the wrong case to argue against the death penalty or unjust convictions!

[ConsAreLiars]

40. There are a couple documentaries for those who don't claim to be omniscient

or eyewitnesses and wish to have an informed opinion on this. (The alleged eyewitnesses recanted.)

The first is an HBO Documentary from around 10 tears ago - "A Case for Reasonable Doubt":
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=+A+CASE+FOR+REASONABLE+DOUBT

A more recent one October 2007) is "In Prison My Whole Life" :
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=In+Prison+My+Whole+Life

Of course, there will always be those who know that the cops never frame anyone and for whom the fact that he was a Black Panther activist and journalist is enough to know he is guilty.

[Thurston Howell III]

42. I'm watching it now.

[robcon]

46. Guilty!

n/t

[Poll_Blind]

49. Guilty and while I'm generally against the death penalty, I took the time to...

...read the details of his crime(s). From that point on I did not lose a moment's sleep with him on death row and being put to death.

PB

[Blue_Tires]

50. probably guilty, but a shady trial and conviction...

did something newsworthy happen recently?

why not make it into a poll?

[defendandprotect]

54. Isn't this also a Judge with a questionable history of imprisoning African-Americans . .. ???