Old Money in the South

[rateyes]

I live in the state of Georgia. If you're ever in this neck of the woods, take a drive through places like Madison, GA and look at the huge antebellum homes that were spared Sherman's march to the sea. Understand that there are quite a few very rich people who own hundreds and thousands of acres of land, handed down to them from generation to generation. Old money.

Most of that old money was made on the backs of slave labor, and what some called "poor white trash" in the cotton fields and the peanut farms and tobacco farms. The slaves built this part of the country, for the benefit of their owners, and the descendants of the slaveowners still benefit from it, at the expense of the slaves' descendants. For the most part, blacks still work for whites...and, a helluva lot of them for minimum wage, or at least not a fair wage.

Is it any wonder that blacks who live in poverty might be just a little ticked off at the injustice?

God bless America. Uh huh.

[Fresh_Start]

1. I'm okay with blacks being ticked off at people that owned slaves

are any of those people still alive today?

[rateyes]

2. No, but the descendants who have benefited from slave labor

and are now benefiting from "almost" slave labor (with the sorry assed minimum wage) are still alive.

[Fresh_Start]

5. so the greatgrandchildren of the slave owners are responsible

for actions that occurred 100 years before their birth?

why don't we imprison the entire family when one person in the family commits a crime.
and don't forget to imprison their descendents

[rateyes]

12. I'm sorry you don't get it.

Employers are responsible for paying their employees livable wages.

[Fresh_Start]

20. no they are not

they are only required to pay the minimum wage

blame our representatives for not legislating a liveable wage

[rateyes]

45. Yeah, you're right. I should have said that

they SHOULD BE responsible.

[haymakeragain]

15. You're being obtuse.

Is that on purpose, or just natural.

[Fresh_Start]

21. I'm not being obtuse

I'm saying that generalized anger at historic injustice is also unfair and biased

[haymakeragain]

23. You are talking only of historic injustice, which is fine.

It was an historic injustice, however you are ignoring the elephant in the room. The windfall that was the result of those injustices remains in the hands of the descendants of those who perpetrated those injustices. In the case of Nazi Germany, hasn't there been numerous lawsuits trying to recover lost wealth as a result of the Nazi actions? Not to mention other types of reparations for slave labor, torture, death, punitive actions against them. No one believes that the ill-gotten wealth from the Nazis should be passed down by birthright, do they?

In this case I don't think the anger is all that generalized.

[Hannah Bell]

24. If the family of the criminal received the ill-gotten gains -

& won't give them up - why not?


"why don't we imprison the entire family when one person in the family commits a crime."

[Fresh_Start]

25. because it wasn't illegal gains

slavery was legal when they had slaves

[Hannah Bell]

28. I was responding to your question about criminals.

If the family receives the ill-gotten gains, they should be charged - with receiving stolen goods.

If your analogy was inadequate to the point you were making, you shouldn't have used it.

[Fresh_Start]

29. I didn't specify the criminal act to stealing

you qualified it that way

[Hannah Bell]

36. you said:

1. we didn't penalize the families of criminals.
2. i said, why not if they received stolen property (i.e. the profit of slave labor).
3. you said it was legal when they did it.

ergo, they weren't criminals & your analogy was irrelevant.

[annabanana]

48. Hannah said "ill-gotten"

not "illegal"

[BigDaddy44]

17. Descendants are benefitting from slave labor?

Geez, wake up. You think that happens just in the South? Old money is almost always the beneficiary of slave labor of one sort.

[rateyes]

18. Where have we disagreed?

[malaise]

30. That's why I support reparations n/t

[Virginia Dare]

51. How do you envision it being carried out?...

I'm not necessarily against it, I just don't see a way to do it where it would actually achieve what it sets out to accomplish.

[misanthrope]

3. What about those who stand firmly on the shoulders...

...of those who owned slaves and manipulated a feudal system to arrive at their station in life? These contemporary folks would not be where they are today without the previous injustices and continue to exploit a system built on the skeleton of those days.

[Fresh_Start]

7. so I'm supposed to hate Germans children and future generations

because they grandparents stood by while the Nazis imprisoned and killed my family?

Sorry, I won't blame today's people for the actions of their ancestors

[misanthrope]

10. Germany was decimated far beyond the American South...

...The German system was dismantled more completely and those who lived through that didn't romanticize Hitler's reign. That's not the case in the South.

Did Germany adopt Nazi flags again? Confederate flags are still abundant around the South and until relatively recently were displayed at most governmental buildings.

Did Germany codify anti-Semitism after 1945? Well, Jim Crow ruled in the South for 60 years.

[mitchum]

33. And Germans would actually have more reason to be perversely proud...

of the accomplishments of Nazi Germany.
Nazi Germany did change the map of Europe. The Confederate army couldn't even conquer Pennsylvania.
Many technologies were developed in Nazi Germany. The Confederacy was only able to build a submarine. And it sank.

[Hannah Bell]

26. Nothing to do with "hate". Recognition of the facts of the matter. n/t

[slor]

56. Who is talking about hate?

do do the "children" have any Nazi gold? They are not allowed to keep it, and that is the point.

[Hannah Bell]

61. Post 7 was. The post I responded to. n/t

[slor]

64. That was the same post...

I was responding too, also. You and I were asking the same question.

[Hannah Bell]

67. oops, my misreading. n/t

[katsy]

6. Sure.

Except they are harder to fight now.

It's a judicial system that renders unequal justice.

It's a private, for profit, prison system that pays slave wages to the incarcerated.

Racial profiling.

It's NCLB and even if students graduate high school, few have the ability to attend college.

It's Katrina.

It's being poor without hope.

It's being outsourced to countries where slave labor is acceptable.

[Fresh_Start]

8. Poverty is not limited to one racial group

nor is failure of equal rights under law limited to one racial group.

Why don't we all stand in a circle and throw rocks at other people that LOOK like they might be descended from someone who might have harmed our families or ethnic subgroups sometime in the past

[katsy]

11. Who said anything about throwing rocks at anyone? n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. and the arrogance of the old plantation owners

is often still heard. My husband went to a military academy in your state for a year. He said that the spoiled rich brats from old money made him understand why the South went to war--and then lost it. Bet they were some of the same folks you are talking about.

[rateyes]

14. Yep.

[mitchum]

31. A dirty little secret about many of those scions of GA aristocracy...

your husband met...is that their money is not that "old"
Most of their ancestors spent from sun up to sun down staring at the ass end of a mule. Their contemporary sense of privilege comes from the money derived from their father's or grandfather's ancestral Ford dealership in some small town suburb of Atlanta.
Every contemporary cracker who now has money likes to imagine their forebears sipping bourbon on the verandah.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

39. Another dirty little secret

My husband wanted to go to military school because he thought it was cool. It turned out that this school was really an alternative to juvenile hall, if you get my drift. Apparently the kids were like George W. Bush was as a kid-spoiled rich brats who were sent there to keep them out of trouble. My husband didn't have any problems with them--just observed their attitudes and behavior.

[Hannah Bell]

37. and the dervishes in rags

bow & say "bless you".

the key is being happy with your station.

possibly your husband should have taken this approach.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. My husband would now

but then he was 13. We all change with age.

[Hannah Bell]

42. But you felt called to draw attention to the incident

here, for some reason.

As you felt called, for whatever reason, to give me the message of the dervishes because I said: the wealth of the rich is the poverty of the poor.

Spiritual one-upsmanship is every bit as unattractive as material one-upsmanship. In fact, they're more or less the same.

Maybe rather than having to have the last word this time, you could just contemplate that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

I obviously have upset you, which was not my intent. So I apologize for words that left you feeling angry. Please forgive me.

[Hannah Bell]

60. You didn't upset me & I wasn't angry.

I made a statement of fact: the wealth of the rich is the poverty of the poor.

You evidently took it as an indication that I was in need of spiritual advice.

When you describe a "spoiled rich brat" & I return your advice to you, you decide I'm upset & angry. Yet I'm not.

There's nothing to forgive, but you might examine your assumptions.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

62. I didn't think you needed spiritual advice

I just have a different take on your statement, and was expressing my opinion. I guess you use words differently than I do that made me assume you were angry.

[Chovexani]

54. You're picking fights with the wrong person.

I've never seen Ayesha post anything with malicious intent in all the years I've known her.

Seriously, she's one of the good guys. You're barking up the wrong tree.

[SCantiGOP]

9. I agree with you, rateyes

My first wife's mother was from Charleston, SC. She said the first question a married woman was asked was, "Who were you?" to see what kind of pedigree you had.

[rateyes]

13. They're still having the sweet-16 Debutante Cotillions.

Genteel.

[haymakeragain]

16. Is your intention to rile up

white people by suggesting reparations, which of course would definitely have a negative effect upon Senator Obama's Presidential campaign?

Not accusing you of anything mind you, but there has been quite a bit of that sort of thing of late. Just look at Ferarro, I believe her intent was to connect Obama to Affirmative Action, which is hated by the racist and bigoted hordes, not to mention a great many on the edge and beyond.

Is this that type of "discussion"? Your post title is interesting.

If your intentions are noble, I apologize in advance. Just sayin'.

[rateyes]

19. Let me put it this way..

I'm supporting Obama, now that all the others besides Clinton are out of the race.

[haymakeragain]

22. What about my premise? Do you think that angle could be played

by our side or theirs to cast doubts about Obama? I would be willing to wager that reparations is another area where Obama will have to "explain himself", even though he has never made mention of it, just because he is black. It will get covertly, or worse blatantly, brought into the discussion sooner or later.

[rateyes]

44. I don't think it will be an issue. nt

[mitchum]

27. I question the concept of "old money" in the state that began as a penal colony...

but that's only natural; I'm from South Carolina :)

Seriously though, I do always think of "old money" in Georgia to be like "old money" in Texas

[aikoaiko]

32. I think it would be interesting to know how many plantations are still owned by the descendants

of the original plantation owners. My hunch is not very many.

[trof]

35. Your hunch would be right.

Many cotton plantations were wiped out with the infestation of the boll weevil around 1900, just 34 years after the end of the War of Northern Agression (;-)).

And many went under just because they were operating on thin profit margins and there was no more slave labor. One caveat: Some economists say that in many cases it cost more to clothe and feed slaves than to pay freedmen a pittance of a wage or share crop with them.

A lot of the ones who survived that could no longer afford to pay real estate taxes on thousands of acres with very little cash flow.

Most of the really huge tracts of land in the south are now owned by paper companies. And most of the 'old money' in Alabama only dates back to WW II and the phenomenal rise of the steel industry and subsidiary feeder industries like coal, iron ore, and limestone mining.

Most of the new money fortunes have been made in banking, insurance, real estate and construction, and health care.

[misanthrope]

40. The smarter Big Mules...

...took advantage of that former cotton land that lay fallow by turning it into timber land. There are some powerful timber families in the Black Belt that can trace their holdings back through the years to previous commodities.

[trof]

58. If you know about 'The Big Mules', then you know.

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

43. That may be true. But I think you'll find the descendants of the

slave-owners are still well-represented in Southern (& Northern) higher society. They may have sold out, but the capital derived from slavery - material & social - didn't vanish.

John McCain springs to mind.

[Wcross]

34. Slavery was not limited to the southern states.

http://www.slavenorth.com/

[raccoon]

50. Not only that, but slave traders were not limited to the Southern states either. nt

Thanks for the link.

[Orsino]

41. If you keep pointing out the racism and its consequences, they'll just brand you a racist. n/t

[treestar]

46. Sometimes you just have to move on

People are of mixed ancestry, you can't pin down who was a descendant of the slaveowner; in fact, some individuals will be descended from both slaveowners and slaves.

Look to the future and find a way to have more equality.

[Chovexani]

55. Move on from what?

How do you move on from something when the effects of the crime are being felt to this day, and most people don't even want to acknowledge it? And how the hell are we to find a way to have "more equality" (whatever the hell that means) when people don't even want to face up to the fact of inequality?

Do you understand what a position of privilege you're in that you can even suggest such a thing?

[JNelson6563]

49. Valid points, here's another

Throughout all of history the rich have always oppressed and exploited the poor. Believe me the slaves in America and the serfs in Russia (during the elightenment even!) have similar tales. The Irish used to buy English slaves, the English, centuries later played a big role in starving and otherwise imposing misery on the Irish.

Throughout history the richer and stronger have always, always, always built their "kingdoms" on the backs of the powerless.

While yes the injustice of slavery in America is unquestionably horrible it is one of the most common threads throughout man's history of inhumanity to man. And it goes on today and it will go on tomorrow.

It is as old as the human race and I suspect will have the same life expectancy. Not sure why anyone thinks any part of the world or any slice of history has any kind of exclusive claim on this.

Julie

[misanthrope]

59. Good post**nm

**

[ThomWV]

52. I believe your state was founded by white indentured servants

The heavy use of black slaves, and the subsequent foundation of great family wealth, was found in the coastal and piedmont region of the Carolinas if I'm not too far mistaken. Of course slavery existed throughout the nation, New York was a port of entry and Washington was a great slave trading center for instance. However to say that for Georgia most of that money was made on the backs of slaves might not be exactly correct.

[better tomorrow]

53. I live in Florida and the homes of the rich are made from

the slave labor of the Mexican roofers....

[NashVegas]

57. Nope, It's No Wonder at All

But it's hard to build a life if you can't let go of rage.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

63. I want money from the Barbarian tribes that invaded Italy

and messed with my ancestors, the Romans. Come to think of it, I want money from the descendants of the Roman Empire too because the Romans got rid of the Etruscans.

[Thothmes]

65. I want the money that the Romans made

after they invaded Gaul and messed with my ancestors, the Celts

[mondo joe]

66. I want that too, and I want money because the heerosexuals have made money by denying

homosexuals equal rights.