Why Rev Wright makes sense- She was tortured and murdered

[malaise]

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0819,missing-in-action,433849,1.html/full

<snip>
NYPD Inaction Over a Missing Black Woman Found Dead Sparks a Historic Racial-Bias Lawsuit
Police blew off the story of a young black woman who vanished. She was tortured and murdered. Now, a court ruling has reopened the case on bias grounds.

Romona, you see, was a nerd. Despite her age, this child of a Guyanese immigrant was still living a sheltered life. A Hunter College student, she worked part-time as a receptionist and otherwise hung out in the local library, dreaming of a career in research. Shy and introverted away from her family, she never partied and, as far as her mother knew, had never had a real boyfriend. She didn't have a cell phone, but she always called her mother to tell her where she was and what she was doing.

Instead, it was Romona Moore's life that was closed. While detectives were offering reasons why they couldn't start an investigation, she spent nearly four days chained up in a basement only a few blocks from her home. She was repeatedly raped and tortured by two young psychopaths who eventually beat her to death on the day that the police grudgingly started searching for her. Her family's amateur investigation found her before the police did.

Besides her grief, Elle Carmichael was disgusted. The story of Svetlana Aronov was fresh in her mind. Less than two months before Romona Moore vanished in Canarsie, Svetlana Aronov, the white wife of a doctor, went missing on the Upper East Side.

"I don't see any other reason but race and class," Carmichael says of the lack of initial response by the NYPD to the case of her missing daughter. "If this was a white kid, they would never had done this. I had to say to the detectives one day: 'You know, I feel the same emotions and pain as a white person.' "

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Wright makes no sense and you're stirring racial hatred. I wonder why? n/t

[Sabriel]

2. How is pointing out social injustice stirring racial hatred?

Yes, better that we ignore it and hope it disappears!

I'm white as white can be, and Rev. Wright makes total sense to me. God HAS damned the America of some folks, you could say. Romona and her family, to name a few.

[EFerrari]

8. Because pointing out social injustice against people of color is the New Racism.

[malaise]

17. BIngo! n/t

[Fredda Weinberg]

21. Go ahead ... lecture the child of a victim of the holocaust on racism. It's droll n/t

[EFerrari]

22. Then surely you should know better. n/t

[ljm2002]

44. "Go ahead ... lecture the child of a victim of the holocaust..."

"...on racism. It's droll", you say.

So because you are who you are -- the child of a Holocaust survivor -- you simply already know all there is to know about racism, and also of course, you are by definition on the side of the angels. Surely you can understand why some of us may be dubious on this score. You might wish to educate yourself on the various forms of fallacious arguments; here is the most relevant one for the present case:

-----

Genetic Fallacy (Fallacy of Origins, Fallacy of Virtue):

if an argument or arguer has some particular origin, the argument must be right (or wrong). The idea is that things from that origin, or that social class, have virtue or lack virtue. (Being poor or being rich may be held out as being virtuous.) Therefore, the actual details of the argument can be overlooked, since correctness can be decided without any need to listen or think.

-----

For a list of others, please see:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

[ThomCat]

45. You keep playing that card as if it says "get ouf of jail free."

If being jewish and the child of a vicim of the holocaust makes you so wise about racism then how about showing some of that wisdom occasionally. I can tell you from personal experience that Jewish people can be just as racist as anyone else.

If you are so wise and knowledgable about racism thenI would think it would show occasionally.

[struggle4progress]

46. You don't believe American institutions are unequally interested in the fate

of people, depending on their background?

[fishwax]

23. racism isn't the problem--*talking* about racism is the problem

:eyes:

[Fredda Weinberg]

19. You think the problem is color? We've got lots of problems, including

immigrants who don't feel safe going to the authorities. Vicious crimes are nothing new to my home town ... and associating it w/Wright is inciting racial tensions.

[alarimer]

27. You are blind if you don't know that there are two justice systems in this country.

It's just plain ignorance to claim otherwise. Minorities (especially poor ones) do NOT get the same treatment from the police if they are victims of crime. In addition to that there are disparities in sentencing for the same crimes for whites and non-white. And we all know there is no justice for wealthy criminals.

[But....]

3. Huh?

If this happened, and I have no reason to believe that it didn't(do you?), then the "racial hatred" is just sitting there and we need to do some "stirring".:argh:

[Brewman_Jax]

4. Your statement makes no sense

pointing out injustice needs to be done.

[noamnety]

5. Have you ever read these words?

"I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."

[madaboutharry]

9. This is a tragic story of a young woman's horrible

death. How is that stirring racial hatred? It is a story that illustrates how far we still must travel as a nation.

[Fredda Weinberg]

20. Hate crimes are up 20% in my boro in the past year. Thanks for nothing n/t

[Brewman_Jax]

38. Cite your source

20% is a huge increase. What report said that?

[Fredda Weinberg]

58. You think that was bad ... stop messing w/my home

(11/29/07) BROOKLYN - The City Council is hosting a "Day Out Against Hate" Thursday in Brooklyn and the rest of the city.
The council is holding the event in response to the increase in hate crimes within the last year. City Council Speaker Christine Quinn says hate crimes have risen more than 20 percent in the city.

http://www.news12.com/BK/topstories/article?id=203611

He said 312 hate crimes were reported to police in 2007, a 30 percent increase over 2006. Roughly 50 were against queer New Yorkers and most of those were assaults.

http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19652262&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6

(04/02/08) WILLIAMSBURG - At least five swastikas were found spray-painted on homes along Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg Tuesday, leaving residents disgusted at what they say is a disturbing trend.
"The last couple of weeks, the last couple of months, actually the last year we had a rise in the neighborhood of such a thing," says resident Isaac Friedman.

City Councilman Bill De Blasio says he's also disgusted that hate crimes have become so prevalent throughout Brooklyn. He says he'll work with the police to catch whoever is responsible.

http://www.news12.com/BK/topstories/article?id=209528

[blindpig]

10. What's a matter?

Does the reality of America disturb you? Shit like this goes on all the time, can you deny that?

[yurbud]

36. Did you fact-check anything Wright said? Apart from praising Farrakhan and the AIDS thing

he was on pretty solid ground factually.

[libodem]

40. Would it be a crime

if the victim were Jewish? Suppose not? No one looks, no one cares? Put the shoe on the other foot.

[ThomCat]

41. Fredda, you're wrong.

He makes a lot of sense.

He's not stirring racial hatred or creating it. He's responding to it and talking about it.

[malaise]

47. It's that simple

This is a horrible story and I don't understand Fredda's response at all.

[hokies4ever]

51. Different is not deficient

I think that statement makes perfect sense. For too long we've been teaching that different people are lacking in something. Many wars are fought over this very notion.

[EFerrari]

6. Yes.

What a horrible story.

[jeffrey_X]

7. Now imagine she was white and blonde

amber alerts would have been released and her name would have been on all the news tickers.

[flashl]

11. Missing White Woman Syndrome (MWWS)

According to FBI statistics, African-Americans and other minorities make up a larger portion of missing victims. Also, MEN are more likely than women to be reported missing, and, again, blacks make up a disproportionately large segment of the victims.

[sinkingfeeling]

12. I'll probably be flamed, but I don't think anything Rev. Wright said, except about HIV and the CIA

was that unreasonable.

[RebelOne]

14. I'm with you. Now they can flame us both. n/t

[Warpy]

15. No flames from me

Yes, he's medically ignorant and proud uvvit. Shame on him for that.

However, I didn't have an issue with much else that he said.

I think a lot of people were offended by it because they've gotten used to going around in a fog believing that civil rights problems were all in the past. Mentioning current racism reminded them that there is still a lot of work to be done in this country, work that will inconvenience them, and they found that unpleasant. Racism is gone, you see, unless you are impolite enough to broach the subject.

Racism is the police not taking the disappearance of a young black woman seriously and racism is waiting while 4 cabs pass you by until one will finally pick you up. It's closely tied in with classism because people of color are always assumed to be in the bottom class.

Wright knows that and you and I know that and it's high time everybody else wakes up and realizes it. Ignoring a problem is a sure way to keep it from being solved.

[flashl]

24. Maybe not AIDS per se but medical mischief is documentated ...

Have you seen or read 'Medical Apartheid' or Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal?

Medical Apartheid Part I
Medical Apartheid Part II
Factor 8: The Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal

A claim that AIDS is targeted against one demographics is not that far fetched.

It is a fact, black males are in mass incarceration and jails and prisons are incubators of diseases. One of the diseases that is unchecked in prisons and jails, is HIV/AIDS. Prisons and jails are not known for their medical care. Horror stories like those in California surface every so often about the absence of inmate medical care.

When diseased inmates leave prison they do not have insurance and are not monitored when they return to their communities.

So, there may not be scientists in labcoats injecting an inmate with HIV but there is a method for contracting the disease and carrying the disease into communities that have been in place for years.

It's just like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, the medical community know its happening.

[malaise]

29. 100% correct n/t

[Kitty Herder]

31. Yep. So it's understandable how some people come to the conclusion

that Rev. Wright did. It wouldn't be out of character for the U. S. govt. to do something like that.

[Kitty Herder]

25. I agree. What did he say that was so terrible?

I didn't agree with the HIV thing, but other than that he wasn't saying anything horribly outrageous and he said much that I agreed with whole-heartedly. What did he say that was as horrible as what McCain's "spritual guide" Rev. Parsley said about the U.S. having been founded in order to destroy Islam?

I understand that some people don't like to hear criticism of the U. S., but the religious right does it all the time! Like what Falwell and Robertson said after 9/11. Which leads me to the conclusion that this whole Rev. Wright dust up is about race. Not to mention an attempt to sink Obama. It's not a difficult conclusion to come to.

Edited to add: I'm a white girl from the rural heart of whitest Utah who never met a black person in person until I was fifteen. (Yes, really.) But I'm going to be honest and say that I loved what Rev. Wright had to say, and would have enjoyed attending his church.

[Brewman_Jax]

37. Regarding the CIA

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/susan-bell-a-shameful-secret-history-509980.html

Here's the story of investigative reporter Gary Webb that discovered CIA links to Los Angeles drug dealers. The report ended his career and drove him to suicide. Also, the report has been purged from the newspaper's archives.

[NashVegas]

48. No Flame From Me

I was taken aback by the March soundbites, but changed my tune after seeing him on Moyers.

Rev. Jeremiah Wright made two mistakes, only one of which deserves criticism. The first mistake was that of playing “Icarus.” Throwing all sense of tactics aside, Rev. Wright became enchanted, if not entranced, by the publicity he received. Clearly angry about his perception of having been “dissed” by Senator Obama, this was his time in the Sun, so to speak. As demonstrated by his performance at the National Press Club, his speech was compelling, but his approach in the Q&A failed to take account his circumstances: he was not in his own church; indeed, he was not in any church. Clearly, by the time of the Q&A, Rev. Wright was in the stratosphere, inspired, perhaps by both the sound of his own voice and the “Amens” he received from supporters in the room. Yet, the responses he should have paid attention to were those of the journalists, most of whom were apparently not part of his Amen Corner. Since then, he has been plunging into the sea. The problem is that many people believe that he is taking Senator Obama with him. I happen to not agree, for reasons I will present below.

The second “mistake,” however, was very different. Rev. Wright has, throughout his career, dared to challenge the myth of US history. For the larger society this “mistake” is of far greater importance than his performance at the National Press Club, and for that matter, whether or not he brings down Senator Obama, US history has a basic narrative: The settlers were heroes; the indigenous people were either heathens or naive primitives, but in either case they were in the way of progress. Slavery was an unfortunate episode that was cleaned up by the Civil War, though it has never been quite clear that the former slaves were ever meant to rule themselves, let alone anyone else. US foreign policy has generally been benign, nearly always driven by either a God-given imperative to improve the world or our sense that the planet would be better off with our version of capitalism and democracy. Where Rev. Wright fell into problems was by challenging this myth. Taking the standpoint of those who have seen the underside of the “American Dream”, he was prepared to speak to a counter-narrative that identifies the problematic nature of US history. By doing so he opened himself to ridicule, but only when his counter-narrative was treated in sound-bites rather than taken as a whole.

...

It is also important to emphasize that the Wright/Obama conflict is largely about a means for the mainstream political establishment to situate Senator Obama with those to his Left. To the extent to which Rev. Wright played into this, it was possible, if not essential, in the view of the Obama campaign, to distance itself not only from Rev. Wright but from Wright's message. In this way the message was being trounced along with the messenger. No real discussion is being permitted about the issues that Rev. Wright raised because he is being treated as an out-of-control old man and his message is being treated as incoherent at best, anti-American at worst. Insofar as Rev. Wright’s message was maligned as crazy and inappropriate ANYONE conveying that message was also so categorized. Certainly by ignoring tactics and focusing more on proving his own dignity and correctness, Rev. Wright lost control over the situation. His own anger and desire for rehabilitation of his reputation outweighed any sense of the current political situation. This was a major mistake and one that many people will have difficulty forgiving. This is unfortunate.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/276/276_think_aw_icarus_obama_left.html

[leftofthedial]

13. there is no struggle but the class struggle

Wright is a racist

[malaise]

16. Not be any social science definition

He may well be prejudiced.

[jeffrey_X]

18. Please explain your though process and logic on this one

I'm not seeing it.

[leftofthedial]

50. In comments I have seen him make on TV,

Rev. Wright dealt with all "white people" monolithically and stereotypically and ascribes to the entire racial group the characteristics of some members of the racial group. That is racism.

I am white, but I am not responsible for American slavery pre-1863. I am not responsible for the current economic disparities between races.

[malaise]

54. I disagree

That's prejudice, discrimination.

My standard definition of racism is 'the use of ideological, socio-economic and political power to prevent others from participating as equals'.

A person may dislike someone based on nothing but her/his color, but if he/she cannot prevent that person from participating as an equal, I argue that person practices racial/ethnic prejudice. When that person has the power to prevent me from doing what she/he can do, then he/she is racist.
When I have to sit at the back of a bus, that is racist.
When someone can refuse me a job, a place in school, college, wherever, that is racist.
When I cannot live where I want if I can afford it, that is racist, but if you're my neighbor and you don't like me because of my color, that alone does not make you racist. In my books, policy and practice is what makes racists racist.

[leftofthedial]

55. then by your definition, he is merely a bigot.

I know if I (a white person) said about people of color some of the things he says about caucasians, I'd be called a racist.

[malaise]

57. True but that's because

the word is often misused. The bottom line is that people often generalize and others misinterpret or have been socialized to misinterpret. Rev Wright has never attacked caucasians; he attacks the system, but M$M would have people believe otherwise. We both know that they're just as good at generalizing about black people and creating stereotypes and caricatures.

[Kitty Herder]

26. I would say that the struggle against racism is a big part of the class struggle. nt

[malaise]

28. It is except that the brainwashed working class

often discriminate against working class people of other races/ethnicities.
That said racism has an economic component.

[Kitty Herder]

30. I think that the discrimination against other races by working class people is

one reason WHY race is part of the class struggle. We'll never make it if we can't recognize our common plight and stop working against each other in order to work together in the class struggle.

[malaise]

33. partly correct

The establishment encourages and fuels fears to divide and rule because it is in capitalism's interest to divide and rule. The day the 'wretched of the earth' wake up and see their common interests is the day there will be real resistance to those who continue to rob this planet of all human dignity.

[Kitty Herder]

34. Yes, I agree. I guess that's what I was trying to say.

But you said it better than I did. :blush:

[ThomCat]

43. That's just so incredibly wrong.

There is a race struggle. There has been and still is.

Pretending that there isn't, and that it's all entirely about class belittles the racist injustice that a whole lot of people face every day of their lives.

[leftofthedial]

52. my apologies if you feel I've belittled the injustice faced by anyone of color

race is one of the fault lines (along with religion, regional background, and others) that are exploited by the oligarchy to divide the rest of us. Race is a fault line in a class war.

Yes, there are racist white workers and poor who hate and are hated by racist black workers and poor, just as there are religious zealots who hate anyone they believe not to be of sufficiently pure orthodoxy. It is not that there is no racism. It is that it is, in my opinion, primarily perpetuated by and interjected into our political and economic lives by the ruling oligarchy.

[ThomCat]

53. I'm sorry. My post came across as more judgemental than I intended.

I know you didn't mean to dismiss racism.

You made a generalization in an unfortunate way. I responded in an equally unfortunate way. :pals:

[Winterblues]

49. If he is I am certain there is absolutely no reason for it

:shrug: I suspect many many many black people feel exactly the same as Wright..I wonder why. :think:

[Blue_Tires]

32. i wonder if Nancy Grace even knows this victim's name

[malaise]

35. Nancy Grace?

What about Contessa, Nora and my favorite white girl ambulance chaser, Rita.
:rofl:

[SlipperySlope]

39. What does this have to do with finding Natalee Holloway?

All this can do is distract us from what is really important; finding Natalee Holloway.

[malaise]

42. LOL

Getting up off the floor :rofl:

Still Natalee's family must be grieving all now. It is not easy to lose your child and not even have a body.

[varelse]

56. "the NYPD tried harder to find Aronov's dog than they did Romona Moore"

That says it all :(