Look at Pat Tillman if you want to understand the ideals and motives of the resistance fighters

[ConsAreLiars]

in Afghanistan and Iraq. Pat Tillman was proud of and loyal to his tribe/nation, and when he saw the unjust murder of thousands he, like many others, felt obligated to contribute in whatever way possible to bring the criminals to account. So he gave up his personal goals and career track to sign up with an organization that proclaimed its intent to do just that. He was a hero.

So he joined up, and then was ordered into fighting a war against the Afghan people with a goal of setting up a puppet regime and establishing a strategic military base to challenge Russia an China and control an oil route. But no Afghans were among those who had committed that crime he sought to avenge. It turns out those who gave the orders had other objectives than he had expected.

But every Afghan killed unjustly by the US forces, and every killing there is unjust, motivates another Afghan or several more who have the same sense of honor, pride and decency as Pat Tillman to join in the resistance.

And others with similar motives were ordered to commit mass murder against the people of Iraq. Again, no Iraqis were involved in that crime. And every one murdered by US forces there likely experiences the same sense of moral outrage that motivated Pat Tillman. And many, and with every additional murder, many more, experience the same sort of brutal, vicious brutality that led Pat Tillman to risk his life to seek vengeance or justice. And they, too, sign up with whatever organization promises to fight back.

So, briefly, if you want to understand why they fight back, think simply of Pat Tillman. I once had the good fortune to have a long talk with a young Afghan. His family had been murdered. He helped me understand both the sense of justice, of right and wrong, that motivated both him and Pat Tillman. And that motivates almost everyone who fights against the empire, and who will never be defeated by more brutality and more murders.

(edit trivial typo)

[Arctic Dave]

1. You have stated the problem very well.

[man4allcats]

2. Though I never knew Pat Tillman or his family,

I grieve for him and them and for so many others who have lost their lives in the same fight. It is just wrong. Bush and Cheney and all the others who were behind this should be tried, convicted and executed for what they have done. That won't bring Pat Tillman and others like him back, but there is something to be said for justice served.

[man4allcats]

3. K & R

and proud to do so!

:kick:

[ConsAreLiars]

6. Thank you for understanding.

There is us, Pat Tillman and my young Afghan teacher and those many others who fight for justice in whatever way they can find, versus the overlords who seek neither, only profit. We here in the US, mere workers, mere proles, are regarded as equivalent to the Iraqis or Afghans who get slaughtered over there. See Katrina. They are the master class and our lives, here, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, anywhere, mean nothing to them.

(edit usual minor typo)

[ColbertWatcher]

13. Minor SPOILER ALERT for the movie "Munich"

To read this post click and drag.

"...versus the overlords who seek neither, only profit."

This reminds me of the French guy in the movie Munich.

Everyone else had a reason to support one side or the other, but the French guy didn't care; he would do the bidding of who ever paid him.

This doesn't seem that big a deal for a hidden message, but just in case no one saw the movie. I'd hate to ruin any of it for someone who hasn't.

[man4allcats]

4. C 'mon, folks! If you're awake, we only need one more vote

to get this on the greatest page which is where it needs to be. Do it!

[chknltl]

5. Very well stated ConsAreLiars

How can we understand our 'enemy' if we refuse to mentally walk in our enemies shoes. I am sooooo beyond sick with the meme that 'THEY' (flavor of the month) are out to destroy our democracy for religious reasons. Sure there are religious nutbags associated with every established religion, (mCcain seeks out ours for support), but by and large most folks need a bit more than a fruitcake's interpretation of a religion in order to march off to war in a foreign land. Many of those we call our 'enemy' are fighting to defend their country from foreign invasion. Most of the rest who fight against us do so in anger over what we have done to them and/or their country. We create the 'terrorists' in order to keep the fiasco war going. If America left Afghanistan and Iraq tomorrow, those folks would quickly sort out their own differences...it is THEIR country not ours!

mcCain and bushco want to open up a third fiasco war with Iran. let me put things in perspective: If Iran were to launch it's military or some kind of a nuke strike against our nuclear reactors because they felt that we were using those reactors to create nuclear weapons, how would each and every American feel? Not that this hypothetical scene is even possible from Iran and yet America via bush and co is willing to do just that against Iran!!! Utter madness and yet many Americans think that this is justified!

Mentally walking for a moment in THEIR shoes, those who support the possible bushwhacking of Iran live in fear and hate induced by the bush propagandists. I can not believe that the majority of these Americans if given the stark truth and shown beyond any doubts that what they are seeing is the truth behind the smokescreens, would back bush's lies. They would by and large change their attitudes about starting a war with Iran. They would redirect that very fear and hate at those who deserve it, not at the citizens of Iran but at the neo-con corporatists who are destroying our democracy and are directly responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands in the Middle East!
KnR

[man4allcats]

7. Good post! And so

how about a rec?

[chknltl]

8. Thank you anotheryellowdog....

I did rec the OP and I even stuck KnR at the bottom of my response....is that what you were talkin about??? (Sorry, I can be dense sometimes.) Thank you for the kind words.

[man4allcats]

9. Yes. Thanks so much!

Sorry I missed your KnR.

'PreciateCha! - if ya' git my drift! :-)

[chknltl]

10. ConsAreLiars consistently posts well and deserves getting our rec.s

I don't always say when I recommend them though and your reminder helps. I see you campaigned well for this thread...thanks, it is an important topic and deserves to be on greatest page imo.

Today, I got to relate the Pat Tillman story to a friend...we saw his mother on Kieth Olberman and my friend asked about him, (she liked his jaw of all things). Now she has a better understanding of the story.

Pat Tillman is a true patriot with an incredible story but that is not the point being made by ConsAreLiars. I have long felt that we need a better understanding of those whom we could easily judge to be our adversaries...sometimes it provides a needed advantage but many times it reveals our enemies to be our friends! Iran could easily be our freinds...they want stability in the Middle East every bit as much as we do. Taking a little mental walk in their shoes reveals this. The trick is to get those who tend to be blind to open their eyes and come for a walk.

:patriot::grouphug: :patriot:

[man4allcats]

12. I couldn't have said any of this better than you did.

Thanks for posting this! I believe Pat Tillman would be very proud, as well he should be, of what you wrote about him. Yes, he was a patriot unlike Bush and Bush's ilk. I truly hope people will not forget the name of Pat Tillman and his courage, and I thank you and ConsAreLiars for bringing his memory to the forefront. :-)

[ConsAreLiars]

11. Except for the "we" and "us" pronouns, you are absolutely on point despite those ambiguious terms .

"Many of those we call our 'enemy' are fighting to defend their country from foreign invasion. Most of the rest who fight against us do so in anger over what we have done to them and/or their country. We create the 'terrorists' in order to keep the fiasco war going."

Absolutely true. That is the truth. But those committing those atrocities are neither us nor we. Try to crash one of their events like Davos or the TLC or a WTO event, and so on. "We" are not invited or in any way seen as a part of them, no more welcomed than some poor Afghan subsistence farmer or goat-herder. That farmer and us working class proles here are indistinguishable from their vantage, and if we look at it, we should see "us" as simply brothers/sisters in the same fight.

(edit slightly to clarify a bit, maybe)

[chknltl]

15. You are right of course... but may I add:

(edited for a minor punctuation fix)

There comes a point when those who are terrorized lose sight of who is doing the terrorizing. I have said from early on that to folks in the Middle east, America is supposed to be the pillar of democracy. Another-words We The People ELECTED the bush war mongers. In a very real sense we are complicit BUT I suspect that most citizens of the Middle East know better.

Perhaps the more enlightened citizens, (much of the M.E. is quite enlightened), understand that the majority of Americans do not want this fiasco/tragedy. BUT in Iraq, with their homes bombed, with their water and electricity not flowing properly, with finding food so difficult, with their hospitals in dire shape and with their neighbors and loved ones winding up dead, they may tend to blur the distinction between our out of control government and our fellow citizens.

Because of America's foreign policy, the plight of the typical Iraqi citizen has deteriorated phenomenally since the days of Saddam Hussein. We have had TWO elections to change this and yet they have not witnessed any changes from their point of view! At some point even the most intellectual among the Iraqi will transfer hatred from bush and co to EVERY American.

I suspect that to the Afghani, it is different. They have been under a continuous state of war for decades...many Afghani's have witnessed war for their entire life! It is harder for me to get into their heads as in this case we may be witnessing an entire nation in continuous waking PTSD! Added to this is the nightmare of depleted uranium oxide poisoning their land and fundamentalists wanting to retake that land... well like I said, how can we get into their heads at all???

Yet it is important that we try. If We The People are to make enlightened decisions regarding how we can aid Afghanistan we need to get into the heads of these citizens. They need HELP and that help may be military, it may be in helping them set up some sort of benevolent government, it may be we need to send in massive medical aid for the PTSD victims. One thing for sure, the bush-gang wants SOMETHING from that war-torn Afghanistan...perhaps this could be turned into a resource via some sort of modified Marshal Plan, one which benefits each and every Afghani citizen.

So when I say "we" and "us", you are quite right that the tragedy was not caused by "us" but in a very real sense, it will be up to "us" as members of this democracy to resolve these issues. If we do not, we may wind up tragically paying for that misjudgment when a terrorist of our own creation straps on a small dirty nuke and takes a walk into a shopping center in downtown Osh-Kosh seeking revenge for his dead family.

So how do We The People stop the war-mongers???? Well there is the HOPE brought about by Barrack Obama and history shows us that We The People can stop an out-of-control government hell bent on a fiasco war-Viet Nam being the example. Is it too late???? Well THAT is the 64-Trillion-Dollar question now isn't it?

btw: I am honored to join that Afghani farmer in this fight. He has his bare hands and his wits, I have this keyboard...we both do what we can.

[eridani]

16. You think that way because your empathy is that of a neurotypical human

To be a conservative is to be brain-damaged in the empathy department. The parts of their brains that process the information "how would I like that if someone did that to me?" work only intermittently or not at all.

[varkam]

14. The powers that be want us to believe that there are radically, insurmountable...

differences between "us" and "them" - this is a fiction spun to make war palatable. It's easier to know and accept that we're raining down death and destruction when we're killing "them", those evil-doers, those monsters.

Truth be told, though, the differences aren't so vast. That is not to say that there are no differences, as certainly things like culture, shared history, and religion separate us. At the end of the day, though, they are human beings and, like us, are subject to many of the same emotions, cognitions, and tendencies. I once wrote a post about how we could probably relate very well to such "freedom fighters" under different circumstances (by that I mean were we not trying to shoot and bomb one another).

I think you summed it up very well. K&R

[ConsAreLiars]

17. Exactly. When we (the people) understand that the concept of "We the People"

and the power it contains is absolutely contrary to every form of nationalism, jingoism, racism, tribalism, and so on, we can become both fully human and powerful. In the meantime, the true monsters, the real non-people, the transnational corporations and those controlled by those entities, will use the divide-and-conquer strategy in every realm they can. The will foster fear, envy, hatred, and mistrust, and do everything to create further suffering and social divisiveness.

This is how they survive.

Parasites, drenched in human blood.

(edit trivial typo)