*My* Stimulus Package Idea:

[Ghost in the Machine]

Since were already over-extended everywhere, and the Feds are printing worthless money anyways, why not make it a win/win for all?

Give every person in the Country who is 18 or older a check for $10,000. *that* will stimulate the economy, possibly create new jobs as people use it for capital to start their own businesses, reverse the real estate disaster as people use the money as down payments on purchasing homes, or for catching up their past due mortgages. Bank stock will go up. Lots of good would come from it..

It will also give a sense of HOPE to millions of poor people, as it may be their first chance ever to get ahead a little bit and feel like they can succeed.

What's your thoughts on this?

[deadmessengers]

1. retirees would be well and thoroughly screwed with your idea

The resulting currency inflation would cause most pensions & savings accounts to drop in real value, as prices rose to reflect the purchasing power of the inflated dollar. Debtors would do well, though.

[Ghost in the Machine]

6. Yeah, 10 grand would *really* drop the value of *my* savings account..

Lord knows that big fat "0" in it right now really strengthens the economy..

Why would prices go up? Part of the reason they're up now, besides delivery prices, is that the stores are ordering *less* products for their shelves, which reduces *their* buying power. Buying in wholesale bulk, or at manufacturer's cost is not always as clear cut as it sounds. You get a better discount buying 100,000 items than you do if you buy 10,000 items.

If anything, stores would be unloading their overstock that hadn't been selling before...

[deadmessengers]

11. Inflation is bad, ok?

Why would prices go up?

The very short version is that inflation is the reason why prices would go up. There are plenty of resources on the Internet that can explain it far better than I. I can give you a couple of examples that should help, though - Weimar Germany, Hungary in 1945, and Zimbabwe in the present. Read up on those, and it should become clear why printing tons of valueless money is an awful idea.

I agree that just printing money and handing it out would be good for the very poor and the very wealthy, but bad for the middle class, and an absolute unmitigated trainwreck for those on a fixed income.

[Ghost in the Machine]

19. Why would it be a trainwreck for those on fixed incomes?

I can see an argument about people losing benefits because of the money, but that could be dealt with in the legislation to pass the Bill to give out the money. We could provide a clause that the money will in NO WAY affect the benefits of those on Social Security, Disability, Welfare, Food Stamps, etc., for 1 or 2 years. Give people a chance to do something with it, without taking away the lifelines that they already have....

As for prices going up, I explained why they shouldn't. Stores that have overstocks because of the poor economy would be selling more... even if they sold at lower prices. Only *greed* would make the prices go up. Let's say you had 1000 units of something. You've sold 400 of them, and already made your money back. You could sell the rest for ANY price, and still be making a profit. It's all about how high of a profit margin a company wants. It's all about profit margin.

[JuniperLea]

2. Take all that money

And hire American companies with American workers to work on America's infrastructure.

Jobs are created, and our highways, bridges, and whatever else gets fixed.

[Ghost in the Machine]

7. Not nearly as many jobs would be created in your scenario...

It might be a boom for bridge builders and construction workers, and a few book keepers and office employees, but that's it.

Where are people going to go on these new bridges and fixed up roads if they have no money?

How does *everyone* benefit from your plan? How does someone else getting a job put money in *my* pocket and help me & *my* kids?

[JuniperLea]

20. Nope... the money would be used and spread around

All the people who made money on the deal need food, clothing, etc. They will seek out services of others. You know, like in the good old days when we all went to the dentist, and we all had our plumbing fixed by a pro, and we got our carpets cleaned, all sorts of things we used to do when we all earned money.

They would be spending what they earned, and we'd have good roads so our tires would last longer than 20k miles.

[Ghost in the Machine]

22. I guess I just see things from a different point of view...

I have a strong background in construction, so I never worry about other professionals doing work for me. I can build my own house, fix my plumbing, electric & AC/Heat. I can repair my own roof, cut my own grass, fix my own well, dig my own ditches, install my own cable and/or satellite dish and clean my own carpet (it's $20 to rent the machine down at the grocery or hardware store in town).

I don't see how any of that helps the single mother down the road that's working 2 jobs and spending all her extra money on gas and childcare...

A handful of bridge builders and road graders/pavers buying new clothes at Wal-Mart won't stimulate the economy at all. Most of that is paid for by City, County or State taxes anyways. Wouldn't MORE people spending MORE money add MORE into the City, County and/or State coffers?

[JuniperLea]

23. No, it would only create false demand...

And ultimately increase prices, much like the gas deal would have.

Not all of us are single mothers. Not all of us are handy with tools. I believe you would have to think in terms of averages in order to make a good guess as to how to best stimulate the economy.

I think it's all a big band-aid and it won't amount to a hill of beans in the long run. The USA is flat busted, broke, poor, wiped out. Handing out phony money isn't going to do diddly.

What we need to do is end the war and stop taking out more loans and stop taking out more loans in order to give money to other countries. Until we put a lid on the uncontrolled hemorrhaging of US funds, nothing is going to matter.

[FogerRox]

29. Deficit spending on infrastructure got us out of the Republican Depression

By creating good jobs, instituting the 40 hr work week, union rights under the Wagner Act, pushed wages up in the 1934-39 period.

The New Deal stabilized the economy. The OP would send the country into a depression in a heart beat, the author fails to note these sorts of gimmicks have been tried before, they didnt work, they made things worse ... much worse.

Give me fucking Labor rights, Education rights, and progressive taxation if you want economic relief.

[JuniperLea]

34. Thank you!

Well said.

[FogerRox]

36. You must be a very wise person.

Wiser than me.

[belpejic]

3. McCain Consults with Dole on Stimulus Package

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Why not give lower income people a genuine tax holiday for one year?

I'm not sure the gov't even has enough cash on hand to be sending out the current chimp checks...

[Ghost in the Machine]

8. Maybe you should have tried harder to "help yourself"....

:eyes:

Tell me.... How does someone making less than $10,000 a year save anything from a "tax holiday"? They don't have the money to spend in the first place, so what are they *saving*?

"I'm not sure the gov't even has enough cash on hand to be sending out the current chimp checks..."

Yes, *that's* why I said "since they're printing worthless money anyways.."

[FogerRox]

26. Help ypur self, nice talking point, where did ya get it from

[FogerRox]

4. 200 million people getting 10k checks, increases the deficit

and creates jobs in China making LCD TV screens.

OTOH, if the government takes the same money....

1) Tax breaks to build solar panel factories..
2) Tax breaks to buy solar panels for your house.
a) jobs making solar panels.
b) jobs installing panels.

One of the lessons learned in the Great Republican Depression is that deficit spending to build infrastructure, means jobs and infrastructure..... we are still using the infrastructure built in the 1930's. It needs to be replaced, your plan doesnt build anything.

[Ghost in the Machine]

9. Your plan doesn't benefit *everyone*....

Once again, you need to look at the bigger picture. Is the single mother with 3 kids going to get a job installing solar panels? What about people could afford those solar panels, even with a tax break?

I'm looking at a chance to end poverty... you're looking at a chance to "go green", or something. Please explain how your plan benefits the *entire nation* as a whole....

Thanks

Ghost

[FogerRox]

24. Deficit spending to build infrastructure will benefit the whole planet

Is there some part of that you dont grasp ?

Have you read about the labor rights struggle (1900-1945), the Wagner Act, Sidney Hillman, the CWA, the New Deal.......

[Ghost in the Machine]

31. Infrastructure means NOTHING to people with no money to spend

What part of *that* don't *you* grasp? How many years is your 'rebuilding the infrastructure' going to take before anyone sees *any* benefits from it?

Have *you* read about people losing their homes, vehicles, jobs, etc. (2001 - 2008), the Contract ON America, the PATRIOT Act, the Global War on Terror, the Real Estate crash, the astronomical energy prices......

[FogerRox]

35. Building infrastructure creates jobs.

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. Enough to benefit the entire nation??

NO!

You seem to be missing the point of helping *EVERYONE*...

Not one of you have explained how a few bridge builders and road pavers getting jobs will benefit the WHOLE COUNTRY..

Why haven't you explained it? Simple: Because you can't, that's why...

[FogerRox]

40. SO you didnt like the New Deal... did you, you hate the New Deal, you hate FDR too, right..

[Ghost in the Machine]

44. It was fine for back then, the world has changed. What worked back then wouldn't be relevant now...

How much has the population grown since then? How much has the infrastructure grown since then?

BTW, did you get your chicken in a pot and a car in your garage?

I bet *you* would have celebrated when Johnson overturned Sherman's orders giving "40 acres & a mule*" to freed slaves, huh?

Like I said, please join us in the present time...

[FogerRox]

27. Your plan fucks us all, increases the deficit for a supply side gimmick

Google the NEw Deal people.

[ProgressiveFool]

15. yes, I think we'll see a big investment in infrastructure no matter if Obama wins or McCain

Or at least I hope so. To me it seems like a no-brainer - put people to work building something we actually do need. I just hope that the vision includes building efficient mass transportation into the thing, rather than just building new freeways.

There's undoubtedly a lot that needs fixing, and that might be a good start to get our feet wet. But for it to take on a life of its own, we'll have to build something new and great, like the Empire State Building or Hoover Dam were built in the Depression.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

5. How about we pay off the debt

then we can give everyone a 30% tax cut with what we currently spend towards the debt.

[Ghost in the Machine]

12. Paying off the debt would be good, too...

How much would a 30% cut generate? When I was getting $600/wk salary, my bring home pay was $525/wk... so I'd save a whole $25/wk. That doesn't impress me, nor does it help the poverty stricken or those working for minimum wage...

This is more about ending poverty than it is anything else. It gives *everyone* an equal chance, in some respects. Sure, it won't make me equal to a Cheney or Rockefeller financially, but it would be enough for ANYONE to start a new & better life for themselves. Everyone would truly have an EQUAL opportunity. It's up to the individual whether they blow it at Wal-Mart or if they try to make a better life for themselves.

[LeftyMom]

10. I want a pony.

While we're wishing for crazy, unrealistic stuff that isn't in the budget.

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. I want World Peace

Yeah, I know about crazy, unrealistic stuff...

As for the budget, see my comment about "printing worthless money"..




:hi:

[tkmorris]

13. Total cost: Approximately 2.25 TRILLION dollars

The dollar would crash so hard you could hear it from space.

[Ghost in the Machine]

17. And that's different than spending it on a war.... how?

Who benefits from *that* money? Certainly not everyone in the Country... but everyone *does* suffer from it...

I don't see how money in the hands of every American would be a bad thing...

[tkmorris]

18. Did I ever say it was?

Relax Ghost, we are on the same side. All I am saying is that you can't dump that kind of money into the economy all at once, especially when it is directly added to the federal debt, without it having a severely unsettling effect on the economy. The war is costing us plenty to be sure, but the cost is being spread out over years and it is still having a profound effect in the economy. Doing what you are suggesting would magnify the problem 10 fold or more.

[FogerRox]

30. Thats the fucking problem, you "don't see how". Take your 20 oz. framing hammer and go build

something. ANd take your VooDoo OP with you.

[Ghost in the Machine]

32. Who the hell do you think *you* are?

You're running your trap all over this, aren't you? Take your failed logic and go back to 1945, some of us live in the here and now...

I see you don't know shit about framing hammers, either... no REAL framer would be caught dead with less than a 28 oz hammer, but I always preferred a 32 oz. A 20 oz might be more suited for my daughter, though..

The "fucking problem" is loud-mouthed slackjaws popping off about shit they know nothing about, or their opinions are formed from information from several decades ago...

[FogerRox]

37. More humor, you're wonderfull

[Ghost in the Machine]

39. If "humor" = proving you wrong, I'm a funny fucka fer sure!

BTW, my daughter wants to know if you're done with her hammer..

:evilgrin:

[FogerRox]

28. Salient point. The OP is a gimmick, is anti New Deal, anti working and middle class

I find it disgusting and insulting to my intelligence.

The author needs to taken to school, and learn about the economics behind the new deal.

[raouldukelives]

14. I just wanted 100 or so shares

of Bear Stearns. I mean, we paid for it after all.

[greenbriar]

21. man that would be nice right now

would pay off major bills

[Ghost in the Machine]

33. Wouldn't it be?

I know that millions of other people would think so, too..

[FogerRox]

25. This dairy is anti New Deal, Anti economic recovery, anti jobs, anti middle class.

At a recent meeting of progressives in NJ, a fellow progressive professed astonishment when I told him the top tax rate used to be 92%, in fact he did not believe me. This incident motivated me to get my ducks in a row and the result is what you see below.

A Middle class is a rare thing, occurring only 3 times thru-out history. The first rising of a middle class occurred as a result of the Black Plague. The Black Plague killed about 30% of the worlds population, creating a labor shortage. This allowed that Trades & Craftsman to command a higher wage, which trickled down to the common yeoman, much as the unionization of US labor in the middle 1900's allowed non union labor to command wages akin to union labor. Some have written that the renaissance, without a middle class that had the leisure time to even consider art & music, let alone the time to paint, sculpt, write & perform music, would have never occurred.

The second rising of a middle class occurred in the US colonies in the middle 1700's. Once a few Indians were driven away from an area, there was free land available for farming. In an agrarian society this was a big deal in that you could own your own land, grow & sell your own crops & keep the profits, much as a family owned business does today.

The third rising of a middle class occurred during the Great Republican Depression of the early 1930's. FDR's New Deal brought forward tax progressivity, as well as labor rights earned thru the union movement, such as the Child Labor laws passed in 1937 & 1938, (Kids do belong in school after all). But I've gotten ahead of myself, let me backtrack a bit.

According to the US Treasury, "the entry of the United States into World War I greatly increased the need for revenue and Congress responded by passing the 1916 Revenue Act. The 1916 Act raised the lowest tax rate from 1 percent to 2 percent and raised the top rate to 15 percent. Another revenue act was passed in 1918, which hiked tax rates once again, this time raising the bottom rate to 6 percent and the top rate to 77 percent."








After WW1 tax rates dropped during the "Roaring Twenties" as income disparity increased until the Stock Market crash of 1929, the start of the Depression. Under the guidance of Franklin D. Roosevelt, tax progressivity returned, and the top tax rates went up, programs like Social Security and Unemployment relief got started, the CCC & the WPA put people back to work creating infrastructure thats still in use to this day.
My Parents got thru the Depression with a progressive income tax, we won WW2 with a progressive income tax. The 12 million men & woman that served in the military in WW2 came home, the GI Bill sent vets to college, and they started families. This created the largest, most vigorous and the best educated middle class, in the history of the planet. Labor unions were at the zenith of their power, our educational institutions were the envy of the world, corporations made money, the wealthiest made money. The American Dream was born.

Thom Hartman wrote , " but the real events of the 1930s and 1940s that set the stage for a second American Middle Class were primarily the Wagner Act, the G.I. Bill, and tax changes ranging from raising the top rate on the most rich to 90 percent to offering an emerging middle class home interest tax deductions."

Hartman known for, among other things, quoting Jefferson, continues, "Progressive taxation has a long history: As Jefferson said in a 1785 letter to James Madison, "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise." Hartman concludes, "Progressive taxation has helped create every middle class in the First World, and without it the middle class will vanish."

Enter Ronald Reagan and the start of full spectrum warfare on the middle class. The opening salvo, the PATCO strike. Busting the Air Traffic Controllers union was the start of a multi front military style operation to drive wages down for all Americans. Then we were told that Social Security was going broke, this represents the opening of a second front of the War on the Middle Class that resulted in the doubling of payroll taxes.




The blue line on the bottom shows payroll taxes increasing two fold, while taxes for corporations have been cut by a third (green) and taxes for the wealthiest Americans have been cut by two thirds (purple).

Thom Hartman on Ronald Regan, "But as president, Reagan cut the top tax rate for billionaires from 70 percent to 28 percent, while effectively raising taxes on working people via the payroll tax and using inflation against a non-indexed tax system. It was another hit to the already-beginning-to-shrink middle class, to be followed by more "tax cut" bludgeons during the first three years of the W. Bush administration."



Acting as the propaganda mill of the Aristocracy, groups like the Heritage Foundation have been telling us there is nothing to see, move along. In this example, the chart tells us that high tax rates don't raise more revenue. If this was true why would the Government raise taxes in wartime? In fact the US Treasury states that the result of these taxe rate increases, in both World Wars, did result in increased revenue. Whats more telling is the fine print on this chart, the 2 bottom lines are labeled "federal taxes as a % of GDP" & "Income taxes as a % of GDP."
Well I would offer to the Heritage Foundation that since 1940 GDP per capita has increased 80 fold, it might be fair to assume that as a % of GDP, so have tax revenues. The real point is not producing more tax revenues, the point is having a large and vigorous middle class that can participate as a citizen legislators, send its kids to college, so those kids can invent lots of cool stuff for the corporations to make money off of. Consider kids as assets. How do you make best use of those assets? Educate those assets of course.




I thought it mildly interesting that the Great Republican Depression starting with the Crash of '29, and the 2 year recession in '89 to '90, were periods of low tax rates on the wealthy, and occurred during Republican Administrations.

A War on the Middle Class generally attacks the 3 pillars holding up the middle class. Progressive taxes, labor & education. Again I look to Thom Hartman: Jefferson said, in an 1824 letter: "This degree of education would ... give us a body of yeomanry, too, of substantial information, well prepared to become a firm and steady support to the government." Jefferson started the University of Virginia with the intent to provide the yeomanry with a free education so as to be prepared to take part in the Government, the citizen legislators if you will.
The current war on the middle class started with less progressivity in tax rates, then union busting. More recently, tax breaks for corporations to move our jobs overseas, increasing illegal immigration to enlarge the labor pool, which drives wages down. The Bush Jr. tax policy is regressive while Bill Clinton's tax policy was much less regressive and was moving to true progressivity. Additionally we've seen 20 billion in cuts from student aid during the last 2 years. This is warfare my friends, the Aristocracy has attacked us, and we must defend ourselves.

[leftofthedial]

41. AND it will cost less than the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq!

[FogerRox]

42. About 2 trillion each, its about even right now.

[leftofthedial]

43. but we're still there.

Halliburton and Exxon's Iraq joint venture adds up MUCH faster than we turn 18.