I borrowed a Time Machine and interviewed Thomas Jefferson--he had comments on everything, even DU!

[DFW]

These are his actual words---amazing that he is still so up on stuff (even DU!) 182 years after he died:

The Iraq “war:”
"I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind."

WMD:
"How much pain they have cost us, the evils which have never happened."

GW Bush:
"He who knows best knows how little he knows."

Invading Iraq and/or the “Patriot” Act:
"Force is the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism."

“Faith-based” initiatives, “Intelligent” design:
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

The erosion of our civil liberties under Cheneybush:
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

Occupying Iraq:
"Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government."

Spying on people’s reading habits in libraries:
"I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too."

Homeland “security:”
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

On borrowing to finance the Iraq invasion:
"I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

On Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson:
"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."

On padding the White House press corps with phony “reporters” of their own choosing:
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

On Blackwater:
"Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people."

On 21st century Republicans:
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

On GD-P:
"Politics is such a torment that I advise everyone I love not to mix with it."

[yellerpup]

1. Great post.

"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."
K&R :kick:

[Bozita]

2. Outstanding stuff!

Thank you.

[DFW]

3. For the next interview, I was considering Vlad the Impaler

But, then I can get the same stuff from Dick Cheney and not need a translator..........

[reggie the dog]

4. sorry, I have to go here

On Obama,

"You mean you would let a nigger run for office????? Hell those animals are only 3/5ths human. The constitution even says so....."


On Clinton
"What, you would let some broad run for office, hell women can't even vote. A woman's place is in the home."
Sorry, it had to be said. The guy was cool for white men but the world in which he lived was ass backwards for women and minorities.
having said that the seeds he planted (no, not the hemp seeds) have finally led to an era in which women and minorities are in striking distance of the white house, as President this time, not as servants or spouses.

[DFW]

5. Jefferson was still one of the most enlightened voices of his day

Just read the Declaration of Independence.

Just because he kept slaves doesn't mean he would have today, and the broader scope
of his ideas reflected what he indeed was for his time: a revolutionary thinker.
Condemn his era, if you will, but without him, we'd have taken another century to
achieve independence.

(geez, you try to have some fun with a thread, and this is what you get LOL!!)

[reggie the dog]

20. Franklyn

Seemed more open minded to letting the native american tribes have their own states. They were all really advanced for their era thought. As I said the seeds they planted have grown into the USA we have today and have given us important ideas about liberty. The whole "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is huge huge huge in my book. Today we just think that all humans deserve them, not just certain races or genders.

[Mad_Dem_X]

26. Yes

"Condemn his era, if you will, but without him, we'd have taken another century to achieve independence."

Exactly!

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You can go there all you want, but... fact remains that Jefferson was

a man of the Enlightenment and if he were living TODAY, he'd be standing shoulder to shoulder with you reminding you that the tree of liberty has to be watered with the blood of patriots from time to time.

Yes that WAS a patriarchal society, and ours remains so... but less so because they had an upper class revolt.

Did I mention those are extremely rare in history?

Or did I mention most of the signers of the Declarations lost their shirts and died in poverty?

I wonder if modern day Americans are willing to GO THERE

[spoony]

19. It did indeed need saying

People quote the FF all the time about "liberty" and "freedom" and everyone conveniently forgets how few people those terms were meant to apply to.

[DFW]

21. In those days, it was revolutionary to apply them to ANYone

The longest journey begins with a single step.

If no one takes that step, the journey is never begun in the first place.

I wouldn't belittle Jefferson's words just because he wasn't a member of NOW
or the NAACP. It's because of his beginnings that there ever was a NOW or NAACP.
That isn't convenient selective amnesia. It's realizing to what extent his thoughts
were revolutionary for their time. Saying Jefferson wasn't progressive enough is
like dissing Beethoven for not writing sonatas for the electric guitar.

[spoony]

22. I'm sorry but this is simply untrue

For one thing his case against the Crown was, at best, shaky. Much of it was paranoia about what might happen in some hypothetical future, the rest is mostly emotional propaganda. Pretty, but still propaganda.

And the ideas for this "new" country were mostly lifted from centuries of British practice--from the powers they supposedly were throwing off like chains. The rest cobbled together from existing works by various philosophers. Hardly inventing the electric guitar.

[Virginia Dare]

27. Criticize Jefferson all you want for his hypocrisy..

but to question his vision and brilliance? Talk about shaky.

[datasuspect]

43. the ideas for this "new" country were lifted

in their entirety from the french.

[Mad_Dem_X]

25. He was a product of his times

For good or bad. No, he wasn't perfect. But I like to think that he would be pleased that we have come so far that a woman and a person of color now have the opportunity to run for President.

[MessiahRp]

30. I think you have Jefferson all wrong especially when it comes to Blacks

He was given his slaves in inheritance and bound by Virginia law that would not allow him to free them. He fought in the VA legislature to eliminate slavery but was voted down in such a decisive way that he knew it would not pass in his lifetime. Still for a short period of time VA had a law that allowed slaves to be freed in the wills of their owners (thus how Washington freed his slaves when he died) but that loophole was subsequently closed and Jefferson never had such an option at the time of his death.

So Jefferson, unable to change circumstances in which slavery was regulated, created a profit sharing program with his slaves in which when his farm made profits all of the slaves shared in this and earned a share of the farm's gains. It was highly revolutionary for the time.

Jefferson abhorred slavery but was bound by Virginia laws that would not let him free them. The only other option was to sell them to less sympathetic slave owners who would break their families apart. So as Washington also did, he kept them at great expense to himself and made sure they lived in an environment where they were treated more fairly and equally than they would elsewhere.

Rp

[papapi]

35. Jefferson's profit sharing co-op, absolute nonsense...

There is no evidence that Jefferson created any kind of profit sharing plan that benefited all the slaves in his possession. He purchased goods and produce from some of his slaves and allowed artisans a few coins for their labors. But to construe that Jefferson's Monticello was some wonderful paradise where everyone shared in the profits is ridiculous. Since Jefferson was perpetually in debt from the time of Monticello's inception would preclude any notable distribution of any profit to anyone other than Jefferson's debtors, whom he occasionally paid.

Jefferson was not bound by Virginia law from freeing his slaves. He could free slaves at anytime throughout his life with the condition, in his later years, that they leave the state within one year of manumission. Jefferson's plantation, nay his livelihood, was dependent on keeping his slaves in bondage.

I don't dispute that in Jefferson's perfect world the slaves would have been set free. But he came to the realization that it would not happen in his lifetime and would be past on to the succeeding generations. Jefferson was in debt to the tune of about $250,000 when he died. His heirs had no choice but to sell off his properties, including his slaves and his beloved Monticello. He freed five slaves either during his life or after his death. All five were either fathered by Jefferson (probably) or one of his male relatives. The Thomas Jefferson Foundation which now owns and operates Monticello, after years of denying that it was possible, finally conceded that Jefferson, in all likelihood, fathered Sally Hemings's children. Sally Hemings, a black slave owned by Jefferson, was the half sister to Jefferson's wife, Martha Wayles Skelton Jefferson, having been fathered by John Wayles with Sally's mother.

To paint Jefferson in broad strokes is impossible. Only by gaining an in depth knowledge of the man can one ever hope to understand the nearly unbearable burden of slavery placed on him by inheritance and the corrupt system of human bondage exercised in the United States during his lifetime.

[MessiahRp]

36. Hmmm, I guess it depends on your source.

According to the one I have read:

"Since the State laws on slavery had significantly stiffened between the death of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson twenty-seven years later (as Jefferson had observed in 1814, "the laws do not permit us to turn them loose" 44), Jefferson was unable to do what Washington had done in freeing his slaves. However, Jefferson had gone well above and beyond other slave owners in that era in that he actually paid his slaves for the vegetables they raised and for the meat they obtained while hunting and fishing. Additionally, he paid them for extra tasks they performed outside their normal working hours and even offered a revolutionary profit sharing plan for the products that his enslaved artisans produced in their shops."

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=99

Rp

[papapi]

37. So you would choose a neo-revisionist, neo-repugnant-con website...

...to support your argument instead of going to the source, Thomas Jefferson? Here's a starting point for you just in case you're truly interested in learning more about Jefferson:

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

I wouldn't consider David Barton of wallbuilders.org an authority since many of the references he sites have reversed their claims especially regarding the relationship between Jefferson and the Hemings family.

[MessiahRp]

40. I'm not arguing the Sally Hemings stuff though

I think we're arguing different things. I'm arguing that he could not release his slaves so he decided to keep them at great expense to himself and even share some profits with them. You're arguing he had a relationship with Sally Hemings, which I do not dispute at all. In fact I think it helps solidify the notion that he thought of slaves more like equals than as mules basically if he could grow such affection for one of them.

Rp

[papapi]

41. Jefferson had the option to free his slaves, but it may not have been...

...either economically or realistically feasible. You started the debate by saying Jefferson was forbidden by state law from freeing his slaves but this is not true. He could free slaves if they left the state within a year after gaining manumission. Jefferson could not realistically free his slaves and risk a total collapse of his livelihood. There is solid evidence that Jefferson treated the Hemings family of slaves differently than his other slave property. So a class system existed at Monticello that included gentry, house slaves, and field slaves. The Hemings labored as house slaves, a privileged position, probably in light of Jefferson's realization that his family and theirs were intertwined. Jefferson also participated in selling slaves, as evidenced in his Farm Book.

Jefferson freed two slaves in his lifetime and five in his will. Three others ran away and were not pursued. (Still others successfully ran away despite pursuit.)

All nine freed with Jefferson's consent were members of the Hemings family; the seven he officially freed were all skilled tradesmen. About 130 Monticello slaves were sold at estate sales after Jefferson's death.
Freed by Jefferson during his lifetime:

Robert Hemings (1762-1819), freed 1794
James Hemings (1765-1801), freed 1796

Freed in 1826-1827, by the terms of Jefferson's will:

Joseph (Joe) Fossett (1780-1858)
Burwell Colbert (1783-1850+)
Madison Hemings (1805-1856)
John Hemmings (1776-1833)
Eston Hemings (1808-1856)

Left Monticello, with Jefferson's tacit consent, in 1804 and 1822:

James Hemings (born 1787)
Beverly Hemings (born 1798)
Harriet Hemings (born 1801)

[Maat]

38. You need to do some more research.

Thomas Jefferson fought for an end to slavery even before we became a nation. His state enacted a law authorizing very inhumane treatment to freed slaves - in response to Jefferson's efforts. Jefferson actually treated the slaves on his property much better than most. Fortunately, the effects of that law and similar laws were reversed shortly before he died. This is what I've found in my extensive research.

That does not excuse slavery in any way, nor his participation in the morally reprehensible practice; however, in those relatively authoritarian times, Jefferson was far more enlightened than most.

On edit: I do agree that he was a complex man living in authoritarian times. I, for one, am not going to ignore the wisdom in his writings because of anything that he did that would be considered highly immoral in modern times. I teach my child that all movers and shakers have a good side and a 'bad' side (we can argue until the end of times about the ratio of good to bad).

[reggie the dog]

39. I do not ignore all the great things he did.

I just point out that he still owned slaves.

[rucky]

6. I love the history buffs on this board!

They always seem to know what's up.

[Mojambo]

7. Enjoy a weekly conversation with Thomas Jefferson

http://www.jeffersonhour.org/

Best podcast on the internet. Hands down.

[DFW]

8. That is way cool!

I had never heard of it, thanks for the link!

[Mojambo]

9. Glad to help.

I think you'll LOVE it.

Clay Jenkinson is a wonderful scholar and advocate of enlightenment values.

[blondeatlast]

10. Can he run for President? What a bright, innovative, thoughtful leader! nt

[DFW]

11. Well, do you know anyone who is good at cloning?

The Constitution prohibits any president from serving more than two terms, but
if you dig him up, get his DNA and clone him, call the clone "Tim Jefferson,"
you might be able to get away with it.

Of course, there would always be the danger that if the Thomas Jefferson of 1776
were to see what had become today of his creation, that he'd become a hermit in
a cave off the coast of Crete somewhere.......

[papapi]

23. Jefferson's tough ride to the Presidency in 1800

It wasn't easy electing a President back then either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1800

And when Jefferson was elected in 1804, by a landslide, he made absolutely no public comment about his candidacy prior to being elected. He was under attack at the time with accusations of miscegenation with his slave Sally Hemings. He neither confirmed or denied these charges during his lifetime. Late 20th century DNA testing has pretty much confirmed the accusations as true.

[orleans]

12. link? n/t

[malaise]

13. Superb post

K & R

[pleah]

14. Cool!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

15. I miss our fireside chats.

K & R

[1776Forever]

16. Mr. Jefferson is timeless - And thank goodness there aren't too many of these on DU.......

On 21st century Republicans:

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

We fight the good fight here on DU!!!

[DFW]

18. Not here, maybe

But there are many tens of millions of them out there who are
registered to vote. We cannot afford ever to forget that.

[Mad_Dem_X]

24. ...

My man Tom...:loveya:

[Virginia Dare]

28. Thanks for that...K&R...n/t

[Solly Mack]

29. K&R

I love a good quote....so this is a happy thread for me.

[barbtries]

31. that was absolutely wonderful

great work

[Uncle Joe]

32. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, DFW.

[DFW]

33. His quotes never cease to inspre me

I'm glad they find resonance with a few DUers as well :-)

[northofdenali]

34. K&R'ing this one - and putting the old bookmark thereon -

I'm forwarding, too. What a wise old bird was TJ - and what couldn't our nation be with a few thousand more of him in office?

[DFW]

44. I'd settle for ONE!!!!!!!!

[datasuspect]

42. the quote related to bush is not an insult

it paraphrases socrates and implies what true wisdom is.

[InvisibleTouch]

45. "Question with boldness even the existence of a God..."

My favorite Thomas Jefferson quote! :)