Okay, if the economy does collapse, how will a new one be structured?

[Deja Q]

We've had all the scare tactics and other forms of drooling, but nothing of substance.

Some say it's all been planned from the start. That means there is a new structure in the works.

Some say it's apathy; all these events in motion. That suggests, when everything goes kapow, nothing will happen. No secret underground camps or anything else that's ooga-booga.

And, most importantly, change is not always bad. How do you know that it's all going to be doom and gloom for real?

Or is this OP of mine totally irrelevant, and it's more fun to get pants-peeingly scared over a myopic mindset, "Oooooh, it's going to crash!!!1!!!111!!!!1111!!!1!2"

[A HERETIC I AM]

1. Answer?

Fun.

[dysfunctional press]

2. apparently we'll all be carrying our little bags of gold dust everywhere...

why do so many conservitards seem to have such a hard-on for the old west...?

[Art_from_Ark]

45. Gold dust? Who said anything about gold dust?

Gold dust was accepted as money in mining towns in the Old West where coins were scarce and people did not trust paper money because of the bad experiences in the 1830s-50s and the Civil War era. People who could, took their gold dust to an assayer who turned the "dust" (usually placer gold) into ingots stamped with their fineness and weight. In the early days, some assayers also made private coins that met the standards of government-minted coins. There were also two mints near mining areas (San Francisco, California and Carson City, Nevada) that would accept raw gold and mint it into coin of the realm.

Today, there are all sorts of bullion coins available for people who do not trust paper money, so no one's talking about going back to the days of using gold dust in daily transactions.

[dysfunctional press]

54. some people are. and they're usually pretty scary.

they think that merchants will have little scales at the register, and you'll pay up with the appropriate amount from your sack...:eyes:

i've heard people discuss it as if it were a real possibility.

[Art_from_Ark]

55. Sounds pretty off the wall

None of the gold bugs I hang around with would ever think of going back to using gold dust in daily transactions. Maybe these guys work in isolated mining camps in Alaska? Or Brazil, maybe? Timbuktu?

[dysfunctional press]

59. no. they're just deluded morans who yearn for life in pioneer days...

i never meant to imply that i ascribe to their outlook of the future- i think it's WAY goofy when people think that money will become worthless and that transactions will be carried out in gold- be it dust, coins, or bouillon.

[Art_from_Ark]

68. But money HAS become worthless, or close to worthless,

in so many countries. Fiat money, that is.

For example, at one time Japan had a 1.5-gram gold one yen coin-- today worth about $50 just for the gold. But now one yen is a piece of aluminum that isn't even worth a penny.

Germany has had 5 currencies since 1914. Three of them are now essentially worthless, except for the precious metals coins that were issued during those times.

In just the past 40 years or so, Brazil has overhauled or even renamed its currency several times--take your pick of cruzeiro, cruzado, new cruzeiro, new cruzado-- they're all the stuff of cereal box promotions now.

Argentina has had the peso since its independence, but the old lady just isn't worth what she used to be-- She could fetch approximately $1 in gold in 1888, which would be $50 today, but after going through several devaluations and demonetizations in the meantime, she's just a shell of her former self.

And it's not just dictatorships that have seen dramatic declines in the values of their currency. In 1914, one British gold sovereign (pound) was worth approximately US$4.75. Today, one British pound is worth approximately US$2.00, and one gold pound from 1914 is worth more than 100 new paper pounds. And the gold in a US$5 gold piece from 1914 is worth more than $225 today.

[dysfunctional press]

71. and where are all the merchants who take gold in return for goods and services??

instead of u.s. currency?
:shrug:

i don't know of ANY grocery stores that do.

[Art_from_Ark]

72. I never said anything about merchants accepting precious metals

I did mention elsewhere that even if there is a currency meltdown, it is far more likely that people will still be selling their gold and silver to dealers for cash, rather than trying to use the precious metals themselves as currency (especially if the precious metal coins are stamped with some ridiculous face vlaue, such as $1 for a one-ounce silver coin that has $18 worth of silver in it).

[Selatius]

73. Inflation is just a function of fractional reserve banking.

Deposit 10 dollars in a bank, and it can create 9 electronic dollars to loan out to other people if the reserve ratio is 10 percent.

Pre-Revolution Colonial Scrip was stable in value over time. The current money, not so much. It depreciates in value each year. This is why you need more and more money to buy the same goods year after year.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. Pre-Revolution Colonial Scrip

was stable in some states (colonies), not so stable in others. It was issued because of the lack of gold and silver, which was supposed to be sent off to the Mother Country. However, the colonists preferred to receive Spanish colonial coins (escudos and reales, otherwise known as "gold dubloons and pieces of eight") because they could be spent easily in any of the colonies.

[Selatius]

76. It depended on the state legislature, but Pennsylvania is considered probably the best example.

The currency was born when a lack of gold and silver in the Colonies made trade hard to conduct, and a barter system prevailed. One by one, the Colonies began to issue their own paper money to serve as a medium of exchange to make trade vibrant. The Governments could then retire excess notes out of circulation by taxing the people, helping some Colonies generally avoid inflation. Each Colony had its own currency and some were better managed than others. It was banned by English Parliament in the Currency Act after Benjamin Franklin had explained the benefits of this currency to the British Board of Trade. Outlawing the circulating medium caused a depression in the Colonies, and Franklin and many others believed it to be the true cause of the American Revolution.

The Pennsylvania version of this currency was said to be the most effective, because they controlled the money supply and issued only enough notes so as to satisfy the demands of trade, preventing inflation. In 1938, Dr. Richard A. Lester, an economist at Princeton University, wrote that “The price level during the 52 years prior to the American Revolution and while Pennsylvania was on a paper standard was more stable than the American price level has been during any succeeding fifty-year period.” Pennsylvania established a "land bank" that allowed landowners to borrow Scrip with their land as collateral. They could borrow twice the value of their land, half of it representing actual land value, and the other half representing production potential of the land. The loan was to be retired over a set period of years, with the land ownership being restored to the citizen upon payment. When the loan was fully retired, another loan could be taken out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Scrip

The main point, though, is that the current system probably is unable to address inflation except to attempt to limit it to low levels, but even at low levels, eventually, a loaf of bread will cost 20 dollars at some point in the future.

[Art_from_Ark]

78. If a loaf of bread costs $20 at some point in the future

then it will finally be around the price bu$h Sr. thought was reasonable back when he occupied the Oval Office

[Mojambo]

3. Only one hard and fast rule... It'll be slanted in favor of the wealthy and influential.

All the other details will be negotiable.

[Deja Q]

4. If the 'global economy' crashes, will not everybody be poor?

[Mojambo]

8. Sure, but we're talking about after the crash. The "new" structure. n/t

[NeoConsSuck]

13. No. See Post #3

[blues90]

28. You would think so , all we seem to have for reference

Are sci-fi flicks of all sorts to base anything on. Nothing seems real to me.

If everything crashes then I don't see how having gold will help , you need access to it and even then, then what.

It seems to me with all the panic it would be some sort of free for all without order just shear luck.

I suppose those who are well off have a stock pile and a safe house to ride it out all in place.

I don't know what happens , does everything just go dark.

[ben_meyers]

5. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

equality of outcome, everybody is entitled to the same.

[Raskolnik]

27. Nonsense. Not everyone is entitled to the same outcome.

If someone works hard and contributes to society, they should not be bound to share the same outcome as someone who refuses to contribute.

[uppityperson]

30. And who gets to decide of what worth each "contribution" is?

Is someone who raises vegetables on a farm worth more than someone who writes books? Is a health care provider worth more than someone who removes the garbage?

Who gets to determine the worth? And what if a town needs garbage removers and a farmer refuses to quit farming and is deemed "not contributing" since there is plenty of produce and not enough garbage removers?

What about those physically or mentally unable to "contribute"? Or too young or too old?

Who gets to determine?

[ben_meyers]

31. Easy, The State. n/t

[Raskolnik]

39. Ridiculous.

So under your system, you have two options:

First, you can have a system where every farmer is paid the same, every author is paid the same, every chemical engineer is paid the same, and every chef is paid the same. Do you honestly think that would work?

Second, you can have a very small group of people evaluate the work of every person in the nation and assign a numerical value to their work. Do you honestly think that's desirable?

[anigbrowl]

66. Well, we've seen how well that idea works. Next. /nt

[Raskolnik]

35. Well, at the risk of being accused of being Milton Friedman, that's the point of a free market

Is someone who raises vegetables on a farm worth more than someone who writes books?

I don't know. Are the vegetables good? Are the books shitty? Can the author find a bunch of people willing to fork over money for the book? Has the farmer figured out a way to raise vegetables in the midst of a drought, or is there a glut of produce in his area?

Someone raising Is a health care provider worth more than someone who removes the garbage?

Probably. A skilled cardiologist almost certainly deserves to be compensated more richly than a garbageman. That doesn't mean sanitation engineers don't work hard or deserve to be well compensated for their work.

What about those physically or mentally unable to "contribute"? Or too young or too old?

That's what the social safety net is for. Recognizing the importance of strong, effective social programs that provide a floor below which we are unwilling to let people fall is a completely distinct position than arguing that equality of outcome is desirable.


Who gets to determine?

Certainly not me or you, that's for damn sure. As flawed as our current version of capitalism is, its a damn sight better than a small group of people sitting around a table assigning a numerical value to all the different categories of labor.

[Xenotime]

33. Your ideals are old and corrupt. That's what got us in this in the first place.

A cooperative sharing of valuable resources and energy is the only way we will survive in the future.

[Raskolnik]

38. Cooperation =/= equality of outcome.

Do you honestly think that an electrical engineer who devotes his life to designing a more efficient battery that allows us to expand the use of solar power deserves the same outcome as a guy who just wants to sit on his couch and smoke pot and play GTA all day?

Do you honestly think that a farmer that gets up at dawn every day and works his ass off raising food for the rest of us deserves the same outcome as someone who would rather sleep in and watch the View?

[Selatius]

74. It's the difference between market socialism and Soviet-style communism.

In market socialism, you are theoretically allowed to buy buildings and equipment and start your own business and make money off it, but it's called socialism because there also exists an option to sell the firm to a public bank, run in the interests of the people, that then reorganizes the firm into an employee-owned firm where profits are divided according to how they wish, and it's called socialism because everybody pays a tax on the capital they use, since the capital belongs to society. Ultimately, you end up with an economy of private enterprises and cooperative enterprises, but at the same time individual rewards exist for those who excel.

With the Soviet Union, though, there was no private enterprise. Everything was run by the state, and each market was dominated by the state-run monopoly. Thus, there was also little incentive for innovation, which is why TVs in the Soviet Union were still largely black/white instead of colored like in the US when the Soviet Union collapsed.

[Xenotime]

79. The rich have a moral imperative to pay their fair share.

The current system simply doesn't work. Too many people are suffering in this country. This is supposed to be the richest nation in the world.

[Raskolnik]

80. That's a non sequitor.

We are talking about the desirability of equality of outcome regardless of a person's contribution to society, not a progressive system of taxation.

[dysfunctional press]

56. fuck that...

why should a 6'4" 225 lb. person who does heavy physical labor all day be limited to the same amount of sustenance as a 5'1" 110 lb. person who'd have trouble lifting 40 lbs.?

not everybody's needs are equal.

[MercutioATC]

6. Ever see "Beyond Thunderdome"?

Two men enter, one man leaves...

[1]

64. pretty much that's how i see it too...

if the economy collapses, there will not be a bunch of folks sitting around saying "well, that didn't work. what can we do to make it better?"

roving bands of toughs with guns will decide for them...

[Moochy]

7. Via a Human Time-Lord Meta-Crisis!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGx7c-QBotE hehe... German daleks.

*** Exterminieren !!! ****

[Mojambo]

9. That was such a fun episode.

Catherine Tate was hilarious.

[Moochy]

14. It was fun... (no spoilers)

I was surprised they kept the changes in the timeline, should make for some interesting changes and fertile ground for the specials and the next season.

[razorman]

10. I will rule everything, since I'm the only one the world owes a living to.

[aspergris]

11. jaysus h keerist

As somebody who trades (spends hours every day watching charts of the market)...

people need to chill out. Bubbles pop. Economies cycle, etc.

Could it get worse? Sure. We're not even near the average bear market pullback - either in distance or in time.

But cmon.

There has NEVER been a 20 yr period in the HISTORY of the stock market where dollar cost averaging into a basic diversified basket has not been a good idea- in many, it's been a great idea.

When the dow was at 14k, I was praying we'd get at least a 1 to 2k pullback because value can start to emerge... but if yer on the sidelines fearing armageddon, you can't take advantage of opportunity.

There are some SERIOUS problems with the economy. There always are, and the market is exhibiting some rationality by repricing risk and value.

[Deja Q]

15. Oh, I am keeping my fears in restraint and, indeed, have contemplated investing again.

Still, if the tinfoil has people believing something's gonna go boom, why not make the tinfoil hat larger and ask "What then?" instead of frothing over what may or may not be theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee end?

Anything is possible in life. I just don't see the need to get freaked out by the wrong perceptions, easy enough to do as it is.

[aspergris]

20. Ya

When investing, generally speaking - emotion is the enemy.

It is very hard to be calm, dispassionate and analytical when everybody about you is losing their head (shades of rudyard kipling).

But doing so, is generally a profitable strategy.

[FarCenter]

19. It is different this time

The US has been running a huge trade deficit with the rest of the world. That was never the case before.

Expect something more like what the UK went through in the '50s and '60s.

There will be a severe, wrenching jolt before the US starts living within its means, and stops relying on the kindness of foreigners.

[aspergris]

22. lol

I thought you were being sarcastic. Then I read your post. The most common canard seen in investment circles is "it's different this time".

Saw that in EVERY SINGLE BUBBLE and EVERY SINGLE RECESSION.

It's like clockwork.

It's ALWAYS different THIS TIME. Until it isn't.

THe market is repricing risk. It creates PHENOMENAL opportunity if you can keep yer head on straight and look.

[Fumesucker]

24. Opportunity perhaps for those who already have money to invest..

Misery for those who do not.

Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has estimated the true cost of the Iraq war at over 3 *trillion* dollars, that's $10,000 for every man, woman and child in America.

My wife and I don't have a spare $20,000 right now and I know quite a few other people that don't.

[aspergris]

29. well yes

if ya don't have the means to take advantage of the opp's, then there you go...

[Fumesucker]

36. Unless you are quite wealthy..

I'm talking in the millions..

You are but one serious illness away from not having the means to take advantage of the opps.

Even with insurance.

My parents had two flourishing businesses and yet died destitute thanks to long bouts with cancer.

Now my wife and myself seem to be headed down a similar path.

I wouldn't be too smug if I were you.

[aspergris]

37. I'm not

But thanks for assuming. This aint about me. It's about the market(s) and the economy. I am excited about opportunity. It has nothing to do with my feelings about ME, it has to with my beliefs about external opp's

[Fumesucker]

42. Why does someone who lacks money to invest..

Spend hours every day watching the markets, as you claimed you do?

A depression means misery for untold millions, my parents lived through it as young adults and had some horrifying tales to tell of hardship.

Yet you think of it as an "opportunity".

[aspergris]

43. Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension?

I didn't say I lacked money to invest. I said it's not ABOUT ME or MY MONEY . It's about the economy and the markets. I am excited at the opportunity.

Yes, it is opportunity. People are panicking. Extreme emotional actions trigger opportunities.

My grandfather, who lived through the depression taught me the value of longterm investing, of staying calm and of putting aside money for a rainy day.

I am saying two things

1) the news is blackest at market bottoms. I am not CALLING a bottom, I am saying markets do not bottom on good news.
2) The dow is down frigging 20%. It's not even a Full Blown Bear Market (tm) yet. It's just @ the level where we can call it a real bear market. Many things that used to be overvalued are now undervalued. If you could walk into your grocery store tomorrow and find out that you could fine many of the same items at a 15-45% discount from what you are used to paying would that not be opportunity?

[Fumesucker]

44. You *said* you weren't wealthy...

And snarked at me for "assuming".

[aspergris]

46. Astounding illogic

You ASSUMED I was (and I quote. ) "quite wealthy"

I said I wasn't. THEN you said

"why does someone who lacks money to invest?" in reference to me...

The logical fallacy is obvious.

According to you, either I am (quite) Wealthy or I "lack money to invest"

When I refuted your fallacious assumption that i was the former, I instantly switched to the latter state in your mind.

The logical fallacy is called "excluding the middle"

You are either being obtuse or simply playing games.

I'll repeat

1) it's not about ME. you MADE it about me. I was talking about the markets
2) The state of being NOT Wealthy is not equivalent to the state of "not having money to invest"

I'm not going to tell you how much money I have in my trading and investment accounts, but suffice it to say that in the real world (tm) it is entirely possible to be neither WEALTHY nor in a situation where you "lack money to invest" at all.

There is a rather large (to put it mildly) middle.

[Fumesucker]

47. "Wealthy" and even "quite wealthy" are relative terms..

"As somebody who trades (spends hours every day watching charts of the market)..."

If you have enough money to invest that you spend "hours every day watching charts of the market" then, in my mind at least, you are wealthy.

You appear to be happy that many millions, and perhaps even billions, of people are going to suffer extreme hardships in order that you have "opportunities".

Gloating over the misery of others is not a humanitarian trait, IMO.

[aspergris]

52. "In your mind"

"If you have enough money to invest that you spend "hours every day watching charts of the market" then, in my mind at least, you are wealthy."

well, if you want to hedge with your personal and unrelated to the world at large opinion, as to what defines "wealthy", then so be it.

What is wealthy? Gross net worth? 250k, 500k, 1 million, etc.?

More importantly- what is the value of your time? If you could INCREASE your holdings by spending a few hours a day watching charts, would you? Most people seek to better their stations in life. That's not a negative thing. I know many people who took rather small nest eggs and built quite substantial ones by using the markets.

"You appear to be happy that many millions, and perhaps even billions, of people are going to suffer extreme hardships in order that you have "opportunities"."

no, you appear to create these ideas out of pure fantasy. I never once said I was happy that people were/are suffering hardships. I said I was expressing positivity that with change comes opportunity and I strongly advise others to empower themselves and take advantage of that opportunity as it presents itself. The market pulling back IS an opportunity. Stuff is cheaper. Some is still overvalued, other stuff is undervalued. I'm thrifty. I like bargains. That's a trait that can help you build wealth - saving money, buying stuff when it is cheap, and selling it when it is dear. A penny saved is a penny earned.

NEVER did I express ANY joy/happiness/etc. over the prospects of other's hardships. You are simply either fabricating or projecting.


"Gloating over the misery of others is not a humanitarian trait, IMO."

I agree. And since I didn't DO that, I don't see how this is relevant except to expose yer own creations.

[Fumesucker]

57. I've been down so goddamn long, it looks like up to me..

You see other's misfortune as a boon to you.. You might not think that is gloating but I do.

In a depression, a few benefit from the misfortune of myriad others.. Apparently you plan on being one of the few.

Are you one of those who cheers when a company lays off workers, since it will mean higher profits for the company?

That's a common reaction in the markets, isn't it?

[aspergris]

58. Again, you fabricate

I see the MARKET as an opportunity.

Fwiw, i primarily TRADE futures. And futures are zero sum. So, exactly as much money is won and lost every day in that market. Opportunity.

You sound like Mr Gloom. Nobody ever made a dime by panicking or by saying woe is me.

I never said any of the things you claim. I said that opportunity is present and people should empower themselves to see it, and pounce on it.

Fwiw, we are not in a depression.

[sendero]

32. I'm constantly amazed..

.... at the number of folks who apparently STILL think we're going to have a "recession".

The clue train moves slow for some people.

[Terry_M]

12. The collapse will be blamed on too much regulation

And so market regulation will continue to be reduced.

[Zynx]

16. Blaming this crisis on regulation makes no logical sense since it was the deregulated part of

the financial services sector that caused it.

[Terry_M]

21. While I agree that it makes no logical sense...

That has nothing to do with whether regulation will be blamed or not. The corporate wing of the government (that's at what, 80% or so of congress and the senate?) will go ahead and do it anyway.

[rucky]

17. Smaller. Simpler. (until it spirals again). That's good and bad.

More local/regional. (globalist backlash)
More self-sufficiency. (back to basics)
More community-based. (we'll need each other)
Employee owned. (local control)
Real value must be demonstrated for a product, service and/or monetary exchange. (backing the dollar; skills are valued)
Banks will need collateral again. (less money from thin air)

Not everybody will own land or a home, and in some ways, it'll be more like Feudalism. (the good old days weren't all good).

[Hannah Bell]

60. i think the opposite. larger, more concentrated. that's what all the

alphabet international agencies & continental trade pacts are about. preparing the ground, sold as more "efficient". destruction of national & regional capital & consolidation of what's left.

[DJ13]

18. .......

[fascisthunter]

23. I'm a Bit Scared, and No It's Not Fun, not for Me

and people close to me.

In theory, change isn't always bad...

[arcadian]

25. Bartertown

or Postman, god I hope Tom Petty pulls it together to start a little collective.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

26. Hmm, barter system? I'm just praying that it doesn't collapse...

[sendero]

34. Most people....

... even "economists" and "the administration" will not even admit what is happening. Yet you think there is a "plan".

There is no "plan". There is merely stupidity, greed and indiscipline from the top to the bottom.

[Hannah Bell]

61. yep, sheer stupidity, top to bottom, everywhere. that's it.

my, how is it such stupid people rise so high?

[sendero]

81. Have you ever worked for a corporation?

If you have then you have surely seen that stupidity is no impediment to moving up the ranks. The qualities that get people elected and appointed are not necessarily useful in doing their jobs.

[Greyhound]

40. I've had this idea for quite some time now. It's positives are universality and the fact that

the system is already in place to implement it.

Instead of basing relative value of currencies on the word of some group or government that cannot be held accountable when it turns out that they lied, or trying to base it on some substance, the quantity of which is always changing. Why not base it, across the board, regardless of location, ethnicity, relative honesty of the local government, etc., on time? An hour in Kenya is the same as an hour in the US and in Venezuela.

The cost of products and services would represent much more closely it's real value.

[Kansas Wyatt]

41. It should be structured to benefit PEOPLE

NOT fucking Corporations and the Wealthy Elite.

More emphasis on the economic needs of all it's citizenry, not fucking wants of spoiled rich people and parasitic tendencies of Big Corporations. No, not communism, but real freedom, as opposed to Corporate Government mandated freedoms, with the basic understanding that people need economic guarantees to survive and economic opportunities to succeed.

For every Bill Gates and Warren Buffet... There are millions and millions of others, who are not lucky, do not succeed, and have worked just as hard, if not harder. Also, with Working Americans hurting so much for so long now, where have the Wealthy Elite been, when it comes to using their persuasion to change government policy? Nowhere! Because they have been feasting off Working Americans.

[Eurobabe]

48. Using Club Med bar beads n/t

[ileus]

49. I bought a 600 buck rear tine tiller today getting ready for next year.

We haven't planted a garden for 3 years, today I bought a tiller (with electric start) from a female at work for 200...

The economy may collapse, but it will come back from the bottom looking just like the old economy.

the dollar will be weak making our good attractive for other countries, sales will pick up, companies will hire and the cycle will start over again.

[BeHereNow]

50. Talk to some Katrina victims for the answer to your query.

There is no plan to restructure anything, anymore than
there is a plan to rebuild the aging infrastructure in this country
or provide medical care or education for the citizens.
The money has all been siphoned off and moved
to offshore accounts and Dubai.
We are on our own.

BHN

[Hannah Bell]

62. The restructuring is ongoing. What do you think nafta, cafta, wto,

codex alimentarius, etc. are about?

btw, fdr confisticated gold in 1933. fyi.


edit: the map isn't the territory. "the economy" is a kind of hallucination, & those with the most guns & $ can restructure it at will.

[BeHereNow]

65. The reconstruction IS on going, and NOT in our favor.

And for the record, only gold and silver in US currency form
can be confiscated.

I have never bought the stuff in any form that could be recalled.

And yes, those with the guns will have a say in the process.
Which leads me to shudder, living in LA, where the gang bangers
are FAR more armed than the average police person or citizen.

BHN

[Hannah Bell]

67. for the record, ANYTHING can be confisticated.

The economy's going to crash so bad that we'll all be resorting to trading gold bars - but the provisional authority would NEVER confisticate it.

Cause THAT would be against the LAW.

Uh-huh.

Price of gold in '29: $20.
Price of gold 29-33: $20.
1933: confisticated.

[earth mom]

77. Yep, that's about the sum of it. :( nt

[killbotfactory]

51. Parecon: Life After Capitalism

"What do you want?" is a constant query put to economic and globalization activists decrying current poverty, alienation, and degradation. In this highly praised new work, destined to attract worldwide attention and support, Michael Albert provides an answer: "Participatory Economics"— "Parecon" for short—a new economy, an alternative to capitalism, built on familiar values including solidarity, equity, diversity, and people democratically controlling their own lives.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=Ij56T-acvUUC&dq=parecon&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BTDVcj_wiT&sig=xnpzGMOObZqWbIlB-2CJr7NRQ3g&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

[anigbrowl]

69. I think that'd last about 5 minutes

I was very into the idea at one stage. After a while it dawned on me that

a) it doesn't clearly resolve competing interests
b) everyone thinks their work is harder than everyone else's
c) like all socialist systems, it substantially debases art
d) it provides no way to quantify and evaluate risk

I don't really want to go into a long essay on the topic. Its heart is in the right place, but when you get down it, there's a reason that every idealized Marxist society rapidly degenerates into rather grim communism.

[stillcool]

53. The 2%'ers will still be the 2%'ers..

Some people will lose their life savings and other people like the poster up above will get fat off of other peoples misery. It seems like I've been waiting for the bottom for forever. It's endless, and there doesn't seem to be a bottom. Just life.

[tomreedtoon]

63. New rate of exchange: bullets.

And it'll be cheap for people with good aim; one bullet gives you everything the other guy owned.

Feel pretty stupid about not having guns now, don't you?

[anigbrowl]

70. Tax will be re-imagined as a form of risk management.

That is all, and quite enough.