No dogburgers at the Olympics

[NNN0LHI]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHING_DOG_MEAT?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Jul 11, 11:17 AM EDT

Dog meat off the menu during Beijing Olympics

BEIJING (AP) -- Canine cuisine is being sent to the doghouse during next month's Beijing Olympic Games.

Dog meat has been struck from the menus of officially designated Olympic restaurants, and Beijing tourism officials are telling other outlets to discourage consumers from ordering dishes made from dogs, the official Xinhua News Agency reported Friday.

Waiters and waitresses should "patiently" suggest other options to diners who order dog, it said, quoting city tourism bureau Vice Director Xiong Yumei

[Muttocracy]

1. so many news items about changes they're making

It's like they're creating a tourist theme park.

[Danger Mouse]

2. Why should they have to? It's a part of their culture.

If people can't handle it, too bad. It's not like they're roasting babies or something.

[hlthe2b]

4. Yes..... why not roast some babies too?

After all, it's just protein, right?





:sarcasm:

[Danger Mouse]

6. Dogs are commonly consumed by some Asian cultures.

I love dogs, but I don't see the problem with eating them.

[hlthe2b]

13. I love it when some feel the need to "educate us" on the obvious

:eyes:

Cannabalism has been documented in the recent past (and likely still persists) in some cultures, so what's the problem with roasting babies?

[Danger Mouse]

15. I find cannibalism to be morally unacceptable. but that's just me.

:shrug:
oh yeah, and it's murder.

[hlthe2b]

18. Well, your pragmatism about eating dogs, had me wondering...

Glad to hear you call the line at least at this low threshold....

[superduperfarleft]

20. So what makes dogs more special than cows/chickens/pigs etc.

Other than your completely arbitrary cultural bias towards eating them?

[hlthe2b]

22. well, if you want to play devil's advocate

on that level, what's the difference between eating human corpses? Just meat, right?

[Danger Mouse]

24. It depends on if the person was already dead or if they were killed specifically for their meat.

[superduperfarleft]

25. If animals are okay to eat, what makes some animals more special than others?

:shrug:

Seriously, try answering instead of just asking another question.

[hlthe2b]

28. I would have been happy to have that debate with you

until you pulled out the snide response.....I don't debate that way.

[superduperfarleft]

30. Sorry, wasn't trying to be snide.

I don't really have time for a debate anyway. Have a good day.

[bean fidhleir]

40. What makes cats, dogs, and horses special is our special companionate relationship with them

over the past 2,500 human generations at the minimum. They have lived with us, worked with and for us, and given us loving companionship. That's something not true of *any* other species.

[superduperfarleft]

42. Pigs make excellent pets.

So the value you place on an animal's life is dependent upon what they can do for you?

ETA: The relationship "we've" had with these animals may not be the same relationship that the Chinese people have had. So is it only western morality that is the One True Morality?

[bean fidhleir]

52. "what they can do for you"

Good question. Is that why we value friends and family - for what they can do for us?

Cats, dogs, and horses have historically - and this applies to the Chinese, too - been friends and family rather than creatures to be exploited for food or clothing.

[Danger Mouse]

46. So? That means other people shouldn't see them as food? Just because we wuv them so much?

Please.

[bean fidhleir]

51. No, it means NOBODY should see them as food. It's an ethical issue

It's about not repaying good with evil.

I'm a little shocked that I have to spell it out.

[Danger Mouse]

55. It's an ethical issue to YOU because YOU feel so sentimental about them.

But you don't get to force YOUR ethical concerns on others.

[bean fidhleir]

62. You know, every psychopath in the world would support your position wholeheartedly

To them, every ethical position is situational, personal, and no more than a matter of whim. So, they say, unless they personally feel a sense of restraint, no one has the right to restrain them or criticize them for acting as they choose.

[superduperfarleft]

66. But, despite the multitude of sentences you've strung together,

it is still inarguable that your "ethical" position is completely arbitrary. What about how the Indians feel about cows? What about the fact that billions of people in the middle east feel that dogs are nothing more than vermin? I assume you're also opposed to medical testing using cats and dogs? And are you saying that the Chinese are psychopaths simply because they haven't been socialized in the same way you have that certain animals are "pets" and others are "food?"

Unless one is a vegan, they are in no position to tell other people what animals they can or can't eat.

[bean fidhleir]

68. No it's NOT "arbitrary". Look up the meaning of the word.

As to Indians on the subject of cows, I refer you to the work of the late anthro Marvin Harris. For your convenience, I'll even quote from his "Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches":

Gandhi believed that cows are treated more cruelly in India than anywhere else in the world. ... Since approximately as many female as male animals are born, something must be causing the death of {30%} more females than males. The solution to this puzzle is that while no Hindu farmer deliberately slaughters a female calf or decrepit cow with a club or knife, he can and does get rid of them when they become truly useless from his point of view. Various methods are employed. To "kill" unwanted calves, for example, a triangular wooden yoke is placed about their necks so that when they try to nurse they jab the {mother} cow's udder and get kicked to death. ... Finally, unknown numbers of decrepit couws are surreptitiously sold through a chain of Moslem and Christian middlement and end up in the urban slaughterhouses

What about the fact that billions of people in the middle east feel that dogs are nothing more than vermin?

What about them? (and there aren't "billions"!) More than a few in the ME also feel that non-Muslims are depraved and should be slaughtered. Should we elevate the opinions of those people too? If you ask either group for the basis of their belief, you won't get anything sensible back, which is a very solid sign that they're living on Planet Wrong.


I assume you're also opposed to medical testing using cats and dogs?

Unless there were no other way (which there always is), yes. My ethics are pretty straightforward: the closer a non-human is to us in nature or role, the closer we should come to treating them as we treat other humans. That's why I'm a veg.


And are you saying that the Chinese are psychopaths simply because they haven't been socialized in the same way you have that certain animals are "pets" and others are "food?"

The Chinese, especially in the heavily overpopulated south (which is where dog-eating is centered) have very little respect for *any* life but their own. There's plenty of evidence for that, not least the adulterated "food" they're happy to sell regardless of the harm it does. I put it down to their land having be grossly overpopulated for ages. Ethics are the mark of a civilized world, and a world of starvation is not civilized. Now they have food, but a certain group continues to treat living creatures as "things". Treating living beings as things is indeed a fairly good finger-in-the-wind definition of psychopath, yes.

[superduperfarleft]

70. I know what the word abitrary means.

From what you've posted, you are arbitrarily deciding that dogs are worthy of protection but cows are not, based on a very western-centric view of animals. If you have a rational explanation I'd love to hear it.

My comment about Indians was meant to be flippant, not meant to be dissected. The movie Earthlings documents pretty well the fate of many Indian cows, so I'm more than familiar with their treatment.

As far as the Chinese being psychopaths, we in the US kill billions of sentient, intelligent animals every year because we like the way their flesh tastes, regardless of the ethical implications and the environmental damage that our "choices" cause. I am by no means letting the Chinese off the hook for their treatment of animals, but I don't think meat-eating westerners have a whole lot of room to talk.

the closer a non-human is to us in nature or role, the closer we should come to treating them as we treat other humans

Who defines that role? Humans? If that's your answer, that's a pretty warped view of animal rights if you ask me. It's like saying that black people have earned the privilege not to be enslaved because they've worked so hard for so many centuries.

And for the record, I'm a vegan. I don't think ANY animals should be killed for food, and if you're a vegan as well, you should understand why I find the argument that dogs and cats have somehow "earned" the privilege not to be killed for their flesh so offensive.

[bean fidhleir]

71. No, you obviously DON'T know what it means because you're MISUSING it.

It means a choice made for no real reason. "Arbitrary rules" are rules made for no good reason, e.g. you're going to be docked an hour's pay if you don't wear red on Tuesdays. Why red? Because. Why Tuesday? Because. Why an hour's pay? Because.

In contrast, I've given you the ethical reason why it's particularly odious to abuse cats, dogs, or horses. That doesn't mean it's okay to abuse or kill some other animal. Nobody should be abusing or killing other humans, either, but abusing or killing children is *particularly* rotten, and if you don't appreciate that distinction then I'd suggest there's something wrong with how you were raised.

[superduperfarleft]

72. Wow, is this how you debate?

My point has obviously been proven wrong because you implied that my parents did a sorry job of raising me. I'll let my mother know, I'm sure she'll be heartbroken that some anonymous stranger on the internet who can only read the first sentence of a post thinks so poorly of her.

[bean fidhleir]

73. Do you or don't you appreciate the point that abusing or killing children is more odious

than doing the same to adults? If you see no difference, then for some reason the usual North-American socialization process -which does inculcate a higher regard for children- didn't completely work with you. If it didn't, why didn't it? If you want to absolve your parents, I'm willing. But that doesn't leave many alternatives.

[superduperfarleft]

74. You stay classy.

So at what age does killing become less odious? Twelve? Fourteen? Fifteen? Eighteen? Do you not see the problem with this line of thinking?

See how easy that was? One whole post and I didn't talk about your mother. :eyes:

[bean fidhleir]

75. Don't bob and weave, just answer the question.

The boundary of "child" is usually put in the range 10-12. If you want to say 9 or 13 that's okay with me. Just answer the question: do you or don't you regard victimizing children as being worse than victimizing adults?

[superduperfarleft]

77. Of course I do, and I admit it's completely arbitrary.

Now you should answer at least one of the questions I posed.

ETA: The problem with your comparison is that even though, on a gut level, I find the killing of children more abhorrent than the killing of adults, I'm not saying it's okay to kill adults and not children. That is what you are saying by arguing that it's okay to kill cows and pigs but not dogs.

[bean fidhleir]

78. There you go, misusing that word again.

Having a stronger tabu (not at all an arbitrary one) against victimizing kids doesn't mean there is no tabu against victimizing adults.

Similarly, that we should treat cats, dogs, and horses well doesn't mean that other non-humans are unworthy of being treated well. It's just that our obligation is greater toward cats, dogs, and horses just as it is toward human children. Whether some individuals or subcultural groups honor that obligation has nothing to do with whether they *should* honor it. There are plenty of people in Israel who claim to be frum yiddim, too, whose disgusting behavior toward innocent Palestinian Arabs must make Rav Hillel spin at 100Krpm in his grave.

[superduperfarleft]

79. I quit.

:throws up hands and walks away:

You only seem to read what you want anyway.

[bean fidhleir]

86. Considering that you're the only one who thinks I think that it's okay to eat non-humans

your dudgeon is a model of ...something.

[LowerManhattanite]

87. For some reason after reading this, I have an amazing urge...

...to grill up a great, big juicy fucking cheeseburger. Mmmmmmmm. :)

[Danger Mouse]

81. Taking your insipid viewpoint, you can justify just about anything you want...

or argue that ANYTHING is morally acceptable or unacceptable because MOST MORALITY IS RELATIVE TO THE CULTURE TO WHICH YOU ARE ACCUSTOMED.
There are many Asian and Native American cultures who see dogs as potential food.

[bean fidhleir]

84. "Insipid"? How charming of you!

As to ethical relativism, sorry. I don't give a rat's ass if some culture thinks women are subhuman or cats are food. They can have as big a edifice of rationalization for it as they like - they're still ethically bankrupt.

[Danger Mouse]

90. That's by YOUR standard. Sorry, kitty cats and doggies are not people.

No amount of cooing and pampering and hand wringing will make them people.
They are animals. In Western cultures they are traditionally pets, but in some Eastern, and some Native American! cultures they are also considered to be a food source.
This is only ethically bankrupt by YOUR standards...a skewed Western viewpoint.

[mudesi]

80. Sorry, but when you say "us", you mean "Americans"

There are dozens of places on Earth that view dogs, cats, and horses as nothing more than animals to be eaten.

[bean fidhleir]

85. Sorry, but when I say "us" I mean humans.

Our special relationship with cats, dogs, and horses long pre-dates the nation state. Or for that matter any political organization but the small tribe.

[jazzjunkysue]

89. Because Dogs are unusually sentient. Try keeping a chicken in your livingroom.

You'll understand immediately.

[Danger Mouse]

91. Pigs are as smart as dogs, yet we love pork and bacon.

Octopi are potentially as intelligent as dogs, but we still slice them up into sushi.

[Danger Mouse]

23. as long as it's not human, endangered, or treated poorly, i see no problem with someone eating it.

it seems that there is a lot of mistreatment of food dogs, which is a shame. i'm not okay with that.
but otherwise, bow wow chow down!

[skooooo]

16. Cause it's against the law maybe? nt

[hlthe2b]

17. Sarcasm, Skoooo, sarcasm

[Deja Q]

57. Because babies taste like chicken, that's why!

[Fumesucker]

60. Nope... Pork actually.. There is even a term for it "long pig". n/t

[Deja Q]

56. And selective abortion of females...

And despite their misogyny, they still have the highest populace. Very demeaning toward women. :(

And yet people think America is the only screwed up country in the cosmos...

[sandnsea]

21. We should send our slaughtered pets overseas

I'm beginning to think it's immoral to gas cats and dogs when they would feed tens of thousands of people a year. It's really a sentimentality the world can't afford.

[Danger Mouse]

27. You know, that's actually not such a bad idea.

We kill so many abandoned animals anyway as it is. This way they'd at least provide some service to somebody.

[Arkana]

3. Let's hear it for the Selection Committee

whose brilliant idea it was to give Beijing the Games! :sarcasm:

Fucking retards, all of them. Beijing was perhaps the worst choice they could have made.

[billyoc]

5. I hear the children in the sweatshops will get a half hour to watch the opening ceremonies.

[barbtries]

7. do the chinese routinely eat dogs?

i shouldn't be horrified or shocked. i routinely eat cows, pigs, and chickens. sharing all this with my adorable chihuahua. my dad went hunting when i was a little girl and my mother made us all a nice bambi stew and i ate it. so i shouldn't be horrified. or shocked. it's a cultural thing. i wonder if the chinese keep dogs as pets as well. i used to have an aquarium. i eat turkey and lobster and shrimp and fish. why do i feel so ugh-y thinking about people eating dogs? cultural differences.

[Danger Mouse]

12. i had a roomie in college who was of Filipino descent

and he had eaten dogs before. apparently, in some cultures at least, they have specific breeds of dogs that are only bred for meat. kind of like we have milk cows and meat cows. i don't know if they keep pet dogs though.

[bean fidhleir]

14. A certain subculture in China does, and they're trying to promote it

Older people in Sichuan Province (western China) think it's disgusting. It's mostly younger people in and around Guangdong -- known, like France, for cuisine -- that do it.

http://www.aapn.org/fooddogs.html

[Warpy]

35. Not much meat on a chihuahua

They still eat dog on some of the reservations here, but usually on ceremonial occasions. It doesn't have much flavor, just adds protein to the stew.

You can tell the difference between meat dogs and family pets. The meat dogs are free range, generic mutts living on whatever garbage and small game they can forage. The domestic dogs are like our pets everywhere, and you just know their owners would rather starve than eat them.

I have to admit I don't see any difference between eating an undomesticated dog and eating a chicken, pig, fish, or cow.

It's my understanding that dog isn't a major protein source in northern China, only in the south. It's my understanding that dog meat is prescribed in certain diets by Chinese traditional doctors.

It really was a little silly to try to discourage it everywhere, but I can see why they did it. We westerners can be idiots when it comes to dealing with other cultures and they don't want the kind of trouble that seeing puppy dog on a menu would provide.

[CrispyQ]

8. Eating a dog - eating a cow - what's the difference?

It's just social conditioning that makes one think that eating one is worse than eating the other.

[bean fidhleir]

19. "It's just social conditioning"

Sure. Just as it's merely social conditioning that leads us to believe genocide is wrong.

If it weren't for social conditioning, we'd all be natural psychopaths. Would the world be better off?

[Danger Mouse]

26. A Hobbesian state of nature? Eugh.

[flvegan]

29. You have it backwards.

If not for social conditioning, we might actually be a peaceful sort, and not kill because we want oil/money or because it tastes good.

[Danger Mouse]

31. it's a double-edged sword, i think. it depends on what your social conditioning IS.

is man's natural state savage? would life be nasty, brutish and short without social conditioning?

[bean fidhleir]

33. No, socialization is almost entirely a constructive process.

I think if you examine the socialization sequence, you'll find that the first lessons are those of cooperation and treating non-humans well. It's only later that the exploiters begin to get their lessons in.

Really. Do examine it.

[Danger Mouse]

36. Hobbes. It's not just for cute stuffed tigers.

:hi:

[bean fidhleir]

38. Exactly. As Terry Pratchett puts it, Freedom might be a basic state of nature

but so's sitting up in a tree trying to eat your dinner while it's still wriggling.

[CrispyQ]

34. Great response!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:hi:

[CrispyQ]

43. We only think genocide is wrong when others do it.

When we do it, it's ok.

I think it's interesting how repulsed Americans are at the idea of eating a dog, but eating a cow that was raised in horrendous conditions is fine. I was raised on a farm & sometimes a mother cow would not claim her calf & let it suckle. My mother & I would have the task of feeding the calf. I would become very attached to those little guys, giving them pets & scratches & visiting even between feedings. Later when they were let out in the pen with the other cows, they would recognize me when I walked by & come running up to me for scratches. I also knew exactly what was going to happen to them when the truck came to take them to auction. My mother thought I was being silly when I stopped eating beef because I realized I might be eating my friends.

I think social conditioning is a collective rationalization for the heinous behavior of the collective.

[superduperfarleft]

44. Very well said. Thank you.

[Danger Mouse]

45. Excellent point.

[bean fidhleir]

53. Who's "we", White girl? (nt)

[CrispyQ]

65. "We" is whatever group is doing it. --nt

[skooooo]

9. What's the point in even going now????

:hide:

[trof]

47. Yeah, that sure ruined it for me.

[skooooo]

63. fuck it

[treestar]

10. Look how they are catering to the cultural sensitivities of others

Now if anyone were to merely suggest that we do anything like that if the Olympics were here, there would be shrieks of protest.

[skooooo]

11. They were in Atlanta...

...what cultural sensitivities specifically did we ignore?

[Buns_of_Fire]

37. I think it was the admonition against Chicken-Fried Steak.

I'm not sure what religious text it was in, but I'm sure I saw it somewhere.

(It's okay, I'm from the south! :hi: )

[skooooo]

64. I'll never get an answer..

...from the person who brought it up, that's for sure.

[treestar]

88. That was before 911

If it were today, there would be screams of protest for any accomodation for anyone, especially Muslims.

If the Chinese were like the present day U.S., they'd say, "we eat dog, if you don't like it, don't come. Oh, and speak Chinese while you're here."

[Deja Q]

50. In all honesty, has anybody actually eaten dog meat?

Some people eat horses.

Canadian goose is edible.

And, gross, there's this thing called tofu that for all we know was made from dog excrement anyway...



On the other hand, where do we raise the bar in terms of animal intelligence to the point turning them into dinner becomes morally wrong?

[hyphenate]

32. I've been part of a boycott since the announcement of the

Beijing Olympics in 2000, and I still can't understand why they gave the Olympics to them. The fact is, there were scandalous things going on long before the Olympic committee made their decision.

Within the Olympic committee itself, several members were involved in bribery charges, and I can't remember what else. But it definitely put me off everything to do with the whole Olympics mess. As usual, modern man has twisted an ancient ritual to its own ambitions. It's going to be a hell of a task to get it to be something worth participating in again.

The ban on dog meat is nice, but immediately after everyone leaves Beijing, it will go back to being Hell all over again. Cleaning up their image is a task that will only be maintained until every westerner is gone. Sadly, a year from now, the country will be back to its old politics, old habits of abuse and nothing any of us say or do will stop it from happening.

[ellie]

39. What happened to all of those cats they killed?

[NNN0LHI]

41. No not the puddys too?

Us DUers really like our puddy cats.

Don

[Deja Q]

54. They're used as 'imitation rabbit fur'.

or pie crust filling.

It's really hard to tell; both taste the same.

[Deja Q]

48. But I can still order my double pussy burger with cheese, right?

:9

[Danger Mouse]

49. you can get the purr-fect treat, still. no worries.

[uncle ray]

58. i'll take my double pussy burger

without the cheese, please.

[L0oniX]

59. What? No hot dogs?

:evilgrin:

[Fumesucker]

61. I've unknowingly eaten dog before..

Befriended a Vietnamese immigrant at a place I worked a long time ago.

Long story short: I ended up eating a bowl of dog meat at his home without knowing what it was.

Pretty tasty actually.

And yes, I love dogs, have one that sleeps under the covers with us.

[NNN0LHI]

67. I wouldn't have liked that at all unless it was done innocently

A "friend" brought over some sausage he made a few years ago which I later found out was venison.

Haven't spoke to him since. I don't mind trying new things. Just be honest about it.

don

[Fumesucker]

69. I don't think it was deliberate...

Like I said, he was an immigrant (one of the boat people actually) and he was feeding me what was condidered a delicacy in his culture.

[Catherine Vincent]

76. I'll be dog gone! nt

[cbc5g]

82. Oh GOOD! Maybe they'll stop forced abortions and baby girl slaughter too while they are at it

In the spirit of the Olympics!!

[Holly_Hobby]

83. As a rescuer of unwanted animals

BITE ME (not you, China)