ATTENTION! Don't you NEVER bring your laptop to an international flight!

[Andre II]

You'll might never see your laptop again.
No, you don't have to have a long beard and carry the koran....

"Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/01/AR2008080103030.html


Well, so if you have to take a flight leave your archive or government-critical articles at home.....

[Andre II]

1. Furthermore

"The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has concocted a remarkable new policy: It reserves the right to seize for an indefinite period of time laptops taken across the border.
A pair of DHS policies from last month say that customs agents can routinely--as a matter of course--seize, make copies of, and "analyze the information transported by any individual attempting to enter, re-enter, depart, pass through, or reside in the United States." (See policy No. 1 and No. 2.)"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10004646-38.html?hhTest=1

Here the official policies:
http://www.cdt.org/security/20080716_CBP%20Search%20Policy.pdf
http://www.cdt.org/security/20080716_ICE%20Search%20Policy.pdf

[no_hypocrisy]

2. And anything and everything found on your laptop may be held against you

in a court of law, assuming you aren't monikered an "enemy combatant", in which case, no problem as you will be held as indefinitely as your laptop, without worrying about conviction in court as there will be no court.

[conspirator]

3. It's happening, like Orwell predicted in 1984. Conditioning of the masses to accept control

This is not even a valid anti terra measure. Is a terrorist so dumb that he is going to carry his plans on a laptop,
when he can just download them in a cybercafe from any alqaeda server on the internet?
FUCK AIRPORTS

[Hobo]

4. So I have a question

When does this go into affect? I arrived last night on an overseas flight from Germany. Besides xray machine no one cared I had a laptop. Sounds like FUD to me

Hobo

:beer:

:toast:

[Mr. Blonde]

5. It is in effect.

Obviously they aren't going to take everyone's laptop. They are just letting you know they can. And as an anti-terrorism measure it is worthless. It is, however, a handy-dandy way to catch illegal downloaders. Which of course isn't their job.

And yes, I doubt pretty much everything our government does. Especially when it comes to ways to limit our liberty.

[HughMoran]

7. They lost my bosses laptop

They can and will randomly take laptops and copy the contents of the hard drive. It happens all the time as has been discussed at work. This was strickly a practical discussion at work, no politics involved.

[Matariki]

41. It' a random 'sample' thing - about 1 in 100

that's what I've heard from my coworkers based overseas and who have to travel here with computers. It's happened to a member of our team and it delayed the work he was coming over here to do. They supposedly copy the entire contents of the hard drive.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

6. Keith Olbermann reported on this last night. He was furious as I am. Big Brother Is Here, Alive And

Well. The Constitution has become a piece of toilet tissue.

[WhiteTara]

8. Fedex is going to make a fortune

people will fedex all their stuff home and get on the plane empty handed, but will have their laptop and documents(or purchase orders or whatever) when they get home.

[Occulus]

21. Send it via USPS

I work there. We don't know what's in the parcels, and for the most part we just don't care. Our volume is far, far too large to search for needles in a haystack.

[undeterred]

9. What happens to people who handle international accounts?

What happens to people who need to travel internationally to do their jobs? Doesn't the government even think of all the hassle they are creating for businesses?

If I were going on a vacation I could certainly live without a laptop. But people on business cannot.

[Bonobo]

10. I am a translator!

A Japanese translator. My clients have a right to expect that their proprietary information is kept that way. When I sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement), that is what I am promising.

So they could copy my HD and send my non-English files to be translated by someone? But even I don't know what is in them until I translate them. What if a client sends me something they consider suspicious? Fuck this is horrible.

How can I NOT Travel with my computer?

[MicaelS]

13. The safest solution

Is to image or clone your hard drive, keep the original at home in a secure location, and ship the other drive to yourself by FEDX or UPS Air. If there's no drive in the laptop, then there's no data for them to inspect or copy.

[KittyWampus]

24. suppose you just keep your harddrive seperate from your laptop when traveling

BTW, what does a harddrive look like?

[MicaelS]

30. Not completely safe

They could still search your luggage and confiscate that. Laptops use the 2.5" size hard drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk_drive

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. shipping overnight via any carrier

does not remove the search threat at the border. customs can and do hold packages for inspection and you could still end up with missing hardware. It is easy enough to get the data back home via the 'net...however, losing equipment to search procedures at the border is an ongoing fight...

sP

[WhiteTara]

29. ship it overnight n/t

[IDemo]

11. This is a blatant evisceration of the Fourth Amendment

The US has apparently reached the point where the 'Executive' or any federal agency can simply announce a new policy that openly violates a central tenet of the Constitution without fear of being corrected by the Department of Bushtice or the Supremists.

Hopefully this will see some action by Obama. He's got a long list of outrages to deal with, I know.

[PA Democrat]

12. My husband's laptop contains information regarding his legal clients.

How is prying into his files NOT a violation of attorney client privelege?

[Pavulon]

15. Rules are different at the border.

same search and seizure that applies at your home are not used.

However whole disk encryption is a great technology that fixes that problem.

If he is not using it already he is in violation of state of California law and good computing practice.

[IDemo]

17. Is the border a Constitutional gray zone?

How much leeway does an agency actually have in creating and enforcing rules of its own that are clearly unconstitutional?

And, the article states that they can remove your laptop "to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time". If your hard drive is encrypted, I tend to think it may be removed for a lengthy period, and may not even be returned.

[PA Democrat]

27. His hard drive is encrypted. The point is if authorities claim the right to examine

the contents of your hard drive, they are going to demand access to your unencrypted data. If you refuse, they will treat you as if you have something to hide.

[Andre II]

19. Besides the practical problem

how much time and trouble and manpower is needed only to shift through a laptop with a few GB of text files.....?
In other words it doesn't even makes sense if one believes (not me) in a good intention here.
The few cases where there is really a suspicion you don't have any problem to get the d'accord from a judge.
So again one of these many tools that only serves Big Brothers and nothing else.

[yardwork]

23. I think that's the point.

This is an extension of the wiretapping of phone calls. They want our personal information to use against their political enemies, or just to use for personal profit and power.

Notes about people's discussions with their attorneys, their doctors, their psychiatrists, their accountants, their bankers, their probation officers, their business partners - think of how incredibly valuable in $$$ this information is to criminals.

[alfredo]

14. Even notepads and pocket trash are confiscated.

[Diclotican]

16. Andre II

Andre II

If this is true, and nothing surprise me anymore when it come from the US. Then I do hope that every single member in the EU/Shengen area would use the same practice when it come to american coming to Europe. If they want to play this game, we as european can do the same.. And we have a lot mor practice with this than the US would ever manage to have...

This is just dam wrong, and I have to say, US look more and more like the USSR as the days pass.. But far More paranoid that even the USSR/Eastern Europe ever was, when they was under the Cold war...

If I ever was to travel to US, after this and other "news" about the fact that your computer can be stolen, by the government, and the content "studied" then they have to ask.. I have "closed down" my pc, and if I ever was to travel to US, the TSA and other government have to ask.. And then I would be more than happy to help. But they have just to ask... No difficult that, is it?

And if they find out that I am writing on DU, and other "regime critical sites" what can they do?. Deny me access to US, that is the worst they can do... I doubt they would send my to Guantanamo Bay anytime soon... And if they don't want my to access the US, my hard won money could be used many other places..

What this is about, is to scary everyone, and to show a terrified population, that they are doing "something" about it.. Even that it would hurt the visitors, ordinary, and work related who have no connection to terrorism or something like that.. And it would also end many business trips to the US. If US believe that we as an world can't trade other places than in the US, they may discover that they are deadly wrong..

America, (USA) look more and more like what the book 1984 was telling about. It is an important book, that I read once in College. But I would never known, that the country where the whole consept of 1984 was to be working out, was in the US.. This is a scary time for everyone.. And more for they who want to travel, to do business or just be there as tourist and visit your wonderfull country... In time when US was to wake up, and be grown up again, and stoping this it might be its time to wisit you again...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[KittyWampus]

26. your english is pretty darned good. And yes, this is becoming very like Soviet state

corporations control information and our government

[Celebration]

18. How about this?

In addition to keeping a backup of things at home, and erasing stuff on the computer, couldn't someone get one of those services that keeps copies of data on hard drives in case of computer crashes? So, someone could erase the data on their hard drive, before traveling abroad, have a backup at home, but also, after getting to the foreign country, copy from whatever the service is that keeps the copy of their data. It seems like a little bit of trouble but I think these services are fairly cheap. I don't travel overseas but I am still thinking about getting one.

There are always work arounds, and I am guessing that most "bad" guys already are doing things like this, and it is the innocent that are being punished by this policy.

[IDemo]

20. I stand corrected

http://supreme.justia.com/us/431/606/case.html#616

from United States v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606 (1977):

That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border should, by now, require no extended demonstration. The Congress which proposed the Bill of Rights, including the Fourth Amendment, to the state legislatures on September 2, 1789, 1 Stat. 97, had, some two months prior to that proposal, enacted the first customs statute, Act of July 31, 1789, c. 5, 1 Stat. 29. Section 24 of this statute granted customs officials "full power and authority" to enter and search "any ship or vessel, in which they shall have reason to suspect any goods, wares or merchandise subject to duty shall be concealed. . . ." This acknowledgment of plenary customs power was differentiated from the more limited power to enter and search "any particular dwelling-house, store, building, or other place . . ." where a warrant upon "cause to suspect" was required. The historical importance of the enactment of this customs statute by the same Congress which proposed the Fourth Amendment is, we think, manifest. This Court so concluded almost a century ago. In Boyd v. United States, 116 U. S. 616, 116 U. S. 623 (1886), this Court observed:

"The seizure of stolen goods is authorized by the common law; and the seizure of goods forfeited for a breach of the revenue laws, or concealed to avoid the duties payable on them, has been authorized by English statutes for at least two centuries past; and the like seizures have been authorized by our own revenue acts from the commencement of the government. The first statute passed by Congress to regulate the collection of duties, the act of July 31, 1789, 1 Stat. 29, 43, contains provisions to this effect. As this act was passed by the same Congress which proposed for adoption the original amendments to the Constitution, it is clear that the members of that body did not regard searches and seizures of this kind as 'unreasonable,' and they are not embraced within the prohibition of the amendment."

I guess leave the laptop at home, encrypt the drive, or mail the drive to your destination and back home..

[canucksawbones]

22. why I will look to fly anywhere that doesn't include thge US

As a Canuck, I often connected via the US for international trips, now it looks like I'll be using London or Frankfurt more and thankfully the Orient has always been accesible via Vancouver easily. Even South America is accesible via direct flights from Toronto. Because I use my laptop for my photography, losing it for a vacation would be more than a serious inconvenience. It's really too bad, because connecting via the USA was often easier (if less comfortable). It aslo makes one a whole lot less inclined to visit the US, which I do enjoy, even if your government blows chunks. <sigh> Hope you guys can salvage your country and constitution, soon it will be like travelling to North Korea.

Grant

[Evoman]

25. No doubt. I have no desire to go back to the states...especially not after the way they treated

me last time I tried to cross the border.

[magellan]

28. The DHS Gestapo

So they can take your data, fish around in it, amuse themselves with it, and share it with any other entity as they see fit? This is especially egregious:

"When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to non-federal entities must be returned to DHS."

Yeah, and who ensures that happens, please?

"But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials."

WHAT?? WHAT??!?!

My husband travels overseas at least once a year and takes work with him on a laptop, otherwise he can't get anything done while he's away. Mailing a hard-drive ahead and back again isn't an option -- too insecure all around, not to mention the cost. Neither is using an online service to hold the data as it would take hours to download it again for use.

NO FUCKING WAY are we trusting the government and possible 3rd parties with our data. I'll find a way around this threat of oppressive intrusion. Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Ravachol]

31. Avoiding to travel to the USA would do, as well.

For us non-americans. :P Or without my damned laptop for sure.

[Heywood J]

32. Apologies for the necro-post, but there's a free and easy fix for this.

(I just got to this window after getting home)

Take a "blank" laptop (OS and appropriate drivers only) with you, or borrow a machine on the remote end (e.g. at your job site) and use a secure, encrypted VNC connection to your home or office. You can do it over SSL or SSH, depending on how you set it up, and it's just like sitting in front of your usual computer if the connection is fast enough. Most VNC clients will also allow you to do file transfer over the encrypted connection as well, so you can just grab your files and work on the computer at the remote location if necessary.

No mailing of hard drives required, no downtime in trying to reassemble the laptop, and no customs agents wondering why your laptop has no hard drive.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. not really an option for a lot of international locations

as the bandwidth to overseas locations can be problematic for such a suggestion. I am in Brazil at the moment and am working in a fairly high tech organization here with what should be nice fat pipes...however, connecting to a PC back at my office or even at my home is yielding the equivalent of a 56K connection...at best...

sP

[karynnj]

33. I've flown with a lap top on interanational flights

between the US and London (twice), the US and St Marteen, the US and Trinadad, the US and Panama, the US and Athens, and the US and Frankfort. Nothing like that EVER happened - it was just like on domestic flights.

Has anyone here experienced anything like that? There are enough people here that if no one experienced it - the chances of it are very very low.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. i burn quite a few international miles

and have never had more than a cursory glance at my laptop...well, with the exception of departing Israel...

sP

[BlooInBloo]

34. And how do you fix the fact that they're allowed to strip search you?

Have been allowed to for years.

[JustAnotherGen]

Also

Same applies to BlackBerries. They can also seize notebooks, etc. etc.

[JustAnotherGen]

35. n/s

dupe

[Catherine Vincent]

36. My boss did a couple of weeks ago.

It was to Mexico City if that makes a difference.

[warren pease]

40. What to do about these TSA and DHS thugs, and the criminals who give them their marching orders?

Like we're all just supposed to happily give up our laptops and wave good-bye to all our information as some power-mad asshole with a tin badge steals them and takes them somewhere for "further examination?" And this is somehow just another pain in the ass that we have to live with because if we don't, the terra-ists win?

This must stop. It's already gone on far too long and the response has been grousing on Internet boards and very little else.

I'm honestly out of ideas that don't require maybe 10 million people in a white hot rage taking back the country by any means necessary and kicking these fascist bastards down the nearest abandoned mine shaft. I don't think those 10 million will be Americans, though.

With very few noteworthy exceptions, I haven't seen anybody, anywhere stand up for anything or anyone -- including themselves or even their families -- in so long I can't even remember the last time. The only exceptions are political dissidents and activists who routinely put their bodies on the line because that's all they have left. That's increasingly dangerous here in Taser Nation, and they're well aware of it. But there they are, every Saturday freeway blogging on I-205 overpasses, every Thursday standing in front of the local offices of Portland's waffling Earl Blumenauer (D-Fantasyland), rewarding him for his striking ability to say all the right things and do absolutely nothing. Low numbers, lots of heart and courage.

This is in sharp contrast to our tens of millions of phony swaggering cowpokes and gunslingers who were exposed as cowering candy asses by the Bushies' terror, terror everywhere propaganda storm. They've probably had to modify their bed frames so they're high enough for our rugged individualists to crawl under them at night, shaking with fear that some swarthy guy with a scimitar will slit their throats before dawn.

So that's the woeful state of our high-volume shit-talking patriot wankers these days. Decades of televised poison has turned their brains to Malto Meal, with a level of intellect and awareness to match. Now they're just consumption addicts and fast food hogs; it should be lots of fun watching them collectively jonesing as their money evaporates and their credit lines disappear.

But as always, they'll blame all the wrong things for their misery. It'll be immigrants or gas prices or gay marriage or the librul media or atheism or environmentalist or pinko commie college professors or... And there's always the radical left and the ghost armies of Islamofascists if they run low on scapegoats.

The one thing they'll never do is inform themselves beyond what Rushie told them to think that day. They'll never even hear the phrase "predatory capitalism," much less understand that it's not capable of sustaining itself without practicing thievery on a global scale.

Or how our nobility has such little faith in their own abilities as thieves that they've even had to rig this zero sum game to make sure they win. Which means the other 99 percent has no chance in the long run unless seismic changes take place and the thieves are removed from their positions of power.

Still, ignorance must really be bliss because there seems to be no end of ignorant gullible fools around who will swallow anything as long as it fits on a t-shirt or bumper sticker -- which means it will just barely fit between their ears.

Absent any evidence of domestic outrage with sufficient critical mass to matter, or even a clue as to what's going on all around them, I have to hope that the saner parts of the world decide that it's in their best interests to clean up this shit-hole of a third-world banana republic so that it's fit for human habitation again. I think waiting for the gunslingers to get their trembling hands around their six-shooters might take just a little longer than the short time we have left.

So that's another rant containing no useful suggestions for improving the situation. There's always immediate impeachment and removal of a couple dozen of the worst of the worst, but that's such hard work and so distracting and it would tear the country apart and we don't have the time and we don't have the votes and we need more democrats in congress (meaning dozens of new Nancy clones) and it's all about winning elections and we have to run to the center and...


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