I'm probably in the minority on the Edwards thing.

[varkam]

I've read a lot of threads the past couple of days regarding Edwards. I see a lot of frustration, a lot of anger, a lot of disappointment, and a lot of in-fighting between members here on DU. The reasons people feel the way that they do, I think, are fairly complex and I don't mean to try and sum up everyone's position here.

What this whole episode reminded me of, though, is the Bill Clinton era and the meme that I kept hearing that politicians have to be held to a higher standard.

I think that's rubbish.

I think that if you hold politicians up to a standard than what is higher for the rest of us, you're only going to end up disappointed. Politicians are people just like you and me with fears, neuroses, loves, and losses. I'm not quite sure what right it is of ours to demand that they transcend the human condition, and sacrifice them when they (inevitably) reveal that they're human beings with faults and failures.

Take me, for example - on a good day I make at least a handful of mistakes. Not the same ones, mind you, but I make them all the same. I've made pretty big mistakes in the past, including having affairs and multiple relationships. Were I a politician, and had the money and the power and the fame...god knows what I could do to screw things up good. I'm sure I could find a few ways.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not condoning ery. I'm not giving, or meaning to give, Edwards a pass. He will undoubtedly have consequences stemming from his affair, not the least of which will be a tremendous blow to the trust between him and his wife (if my own personal experiences are somewhat normal). That's good - mistakes should have consequences. Ideally, the consequences are one of the things that keep us from repeating said mistakes.

I just don't think that we, of all people, should want to throw him to the proverbial wolves for being human.

That's just my .02. Flame suit on.

[Diane R]

1. Sorry. It's not holding to a 'higher standard' to expect him to tell the truth and not cheat.

People do the right and honorable thing everyday, against much greater odds. More men don't cheat on their wives than do. In fact, I don't know men who cheat on their wives...our group have been married an average of 25 years, and one man cheated on his wife. It's not the norm, and it shouldn't be asking too much to expect that someone like Edwards could keep his pants on.

[tinrobot]

4. Telling the truth and not cheating is a higher standard -- for politicians.

[varkam]

12. I'm not saying that it is.

Normally, we expect people in general to be truthful with us. However, there are many times when people do cheat, and when they do lie.

[ismnotwasm]

44. I understand your point

But I hold most people in my life to that "higher standard" And, as you might expect, the people I'm close to are a select few.

It's not judgment as much as I find that kind of behavior generally to be just one in a series of pain in the ass personal traits, traits that I don't have time for.

I don't want to be involved. I don't want to know, so THAT puts me in the mind my own business camp. I can go for that.

In politics though, I can't get away. In politics this shit has to potential to affect me personally. Although in this case, I hope not. So if a politician can't keep it zipped, or at least practice EXTREME discretion (remember, I really, really don't want to know) He or she doesn't get a pass from me.

[katukov]

21. Save your anger

for the real criminals. There are plenty of them and in very high places.

Edwards aint' running for anything anymore, it's not relevant to anybody but his family.

[aquart]

26. But that cheating is about his oath to Elizabeth NOT YOU.

You are reducing the entire man, any man, to his dick.

And you know what? This man volunteered to take the weight of this entire nation on his back which is NOT like any of the men or couples you hang with.

It takes a HUGE ego to run for president. It takes courage and determination and a whole lot of other strengths that the rest of us rarely have to summon.

In your group, HOW MANY OF THOSE FAITHFUL HUSBANDS RAN FOR PRESIDENT? I'm guessing none. So they aren't a pool we can call on to lead our country thru the dark days ahead, are they?

We are talking about a different kind of man.

BUSH didn't cheat on Laura during his presidency, I'd put money on it. Dear boy was fucking the country instead. You think long and hard about what matters more: that he honor his wife or our constitution? And stop fantasizing that it's a requirement to have both. Because a president that does a good job for this country is going to leave his family in the dust.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. ...

:thumbsup: :applause:

[Tace]

41. : )

[MonteLukast]

68. There's cheating, and then there's cheating.

We've had numerous examples for the last seven years what real dishonesty looks like. What real, systematic poor judgment and lack of empathy look like. Where the liars went so far as to deliberately remake our country to benefit thieves, thugs and autocrats.
We've even had a few examples of callous, unfeeling adultery in McCain, Giuliani and Spitzer (the career Silda S. gave up for him).

I'm sorry-- I can't place Edwards in either category.

[Solon]

2. I agree, somewhat...

I don't hold anyone to any higher standard, indeed, frankly, I have no standards for politicians(I don't expect much from them). At the same time, I would not call this a "mistake" a mistake usually happens when you don't think things through. Unless copious amounts of alcohol and/or drugs were involved in this affair, Edwards thought things through, and simply didn't care about the consequences. That isn't a mistake, that's malfeasance and selfishness.

[dkf]

3. Its not the morality, its the stupidity...

And its putting other people who depend on you at risk.

If he announced before hand that he and Elizabeth had an open marriage and he was having a sex only arragement with his filmmaker, then whatevers.

People can make their own decisions based on the facts.

But it is misrepresenting yourself that is the real sin.

[pnwmom]

5. I agree. I'm sorry for Elizabeth's sake about what he did, but it shouldn't

be any of our business, if we were living in a reasonable place.

Unfortunately, we're living in the land of hypocrisy, and Edwards's mistake could have taken the whole party -- the whole country -- down with him, if he had been the nominee when this all came out. Fortunately, he wasn't.

[MonteLukast]

69. This is really about how you adapt to a hypocritical system.

We have to live by these constricting rules because we live in an irrational country. We tell ourselves that we hate to live by the rules, we hate to prop up the irrationality and hypocrisy, but we have no choice because that's the way things are.

This is also why we have "zero tolerance" in schools and draconian marijuana laws. Because of the emotional reaction of too many, still, on the subject. But instead of changing "the way things are", we change the way WE are to accomodate the knee-jerkers.

How about investing the necessary time and work to CHANGE "the way things are"... to bring some judgment back into how we run things?

[pnwmom]

77. Aren't those of us who are working for Obama investing time and work? n/t

[OneDemsConscience]

6. Its Not The Infedility That Riles So Much As Risking the 2008 Election

The party deserved better. Maybe the Democratic party should hire security services to proactively investigate candidates and hopefully prevent such embarrassments.

[SoCalDem]

7. A mistake is leaving the garage light on for 4 days

or forgetting to put the trash cans out, or not calling someone back..

A mistake is NOT crawling on top of a woman and possibly creating a child with her, when you have a terminally ill wife at home... a wife whom (along with the kids), you have used as a cornerstone of your "family-oriented" campaign..

That is not a mistake.. It's a deliberate choice.. At any moment when she was coming onto him, he had every chance to say.. "I am a happily married man, and am not interested in an affair".. But he apparently did not..

It was not a "mistake"..

[Truth4Justice]

9. Agreed. This was an affair, not a one night stand. nt

[drmeow]

11. Mistake

a wrong judgment : misunderstanding
a wrong action or statement proceeding from faulty judgment, inadequate knowledge, or inattention

It was very much a mistake in the sense that it was poor judgment.

[SoCalDem]

13. Literally, yes, but the way some folks are spinning it, it's that same damned

"passive" way Bush-folk weasel out of responsibility..

mistakes were made
shit happened
..

He chose to cheat on his wife, knowing full-well that it WOULD COME OUT!!.. If you are high profile, people always find out, whether you are a police chief of Podunk, Anywhere or high school principal, or former senator/wannabee president..

He's not some novice 16 yr old cheating on the going-steady girlfriend.. he;s a guy over 50, married with children, and a very high profile.. Those "mistakes" are not acceptable at his level.. he chose to break with his family and have an affair with a "groupie"..

The word "mistake" neutralizes and "tames" what he did..

[varkam]

14. I don't mean to diminish it by calling it a mistake.

Look above about what I said about consequences.

[alphafemale]

16. Hiring your mistress to "film you" on the road. That is not a mistake.

That is a level of brazen deceit that wags itself in your face.

And then to gave the nerve to continue to condemn Bill Clinton....?

Damn...just...damn.

[MonteLukast]

70. She didn't become his mistress till *after* he hired her. (nm)

[CTyankee]

54. Oh boy, did you get it right! My husband taught an evening class

part time and told me he had a female student who approached him with an offer to have sex with him. He told her he was a happily married man and she never approached him again. I have no reason not to believe him. We have both come from marriages that were scarred by infidelities and their outcomes so we don't want that again.

[hfojvt]

67. is she terminally ill?

The press keeps saying that, but my understanding is that she will be treated and continue to live an indefinite time.

[SoCalDem]

80. She has inoperable metastatic cancer.. a recurrence

It may be "manageable", but her prognosis is not good.

Everyone I have ever known who had cancer, swore they would beat it...none did..

She may live 2 yrs, 3 yrs..but 5 would be a stretch..as she goes along, the treatments become less and less effective, and secondary side effects become an issue too..

I sincerely hope she's the 1 in 100 who does overcome this, but even with money and the best care, cancer is a relentless enemy..

[Truth4Justice]

8. A politician who is a trial lawyer? What else could we expect? Lawyer=Liar.

[varkam]

15. I'm in law school.

If you're going to call lawyers liars, then the least you could do is tell it in joke form :D

[SoCalDem]

18. A Lawyer and a chicken walk into a 7-11

(insert punchline here).. it's late and my brain hurts :rofl:

[varkam]

20. Aw, come on! That was gonna be good!

:D

[TexasObserver]

64. Did you hear the one about the teacher having sex with her students?

Oh, wait. That's not a joke.

Why do teachers have sex with their students?

Because they won the coin flip with the priests.


Broadbased smear humor is soooooo funny. Lawyers, teachers, priests - what's the difference? They're all lying dirtbags, aren't they?

[Truth4Justice]

22. Problem is that it isnt a joke to me. Thats my opinion, else I would not have posted it.

last time I checked we are still allowed to have an opinion on things and that is mine. Edwards could have seriously done us a lot of damage had he been the nominee and that's my opinion too.

[varkam]

23. Someone's grumpy. eom

[Skittles]

59. hey varkam

you're gonna be a great lawyer :thumbsup:

[varkam]

60. I certainly hope so.

Time will tell.

In any event, thank you. :toast:

[aquart]

27. You must have real problems voting for Congress.

And all your state and local offices.

[TexasObserver]

37. That's a nasty grudge you're carrying there.

And likely very uninformed.

What experience do you have evaluating lawyers for truthfulness?

[Lex]

61. Abraham Lincoln, Clarence Darrow, Morris Dees, Thurgood Marshall.

I could go on.

All lawyers are not liars, and for you to say shows you know very little, sadly.

[TexasObserver]

65. Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and so on.

Try maligning as a group TEACHERS at DU and see the firestorm ensue.

Unfortunately, lawyer bashing is allowed at DU. It is not reasonable, but that's how it is.

[alphafemale]

10. He had certainly held Bill Clinton to a higher standard

Then he lied to all of us.

If someone will shamelessly lie while continuing to pretend that they find such an act repulsive?

...and the complete disregard for the situation he would have put us in?


I really don't know what to make of that.


It's not the adultery so much as the bald-faced lies and narcissism.

[aquart]

28. Aww, people always attack others for what they fear in themselves.

It can generally be considered a very good clue as to their weaknesses.

[alphafemale]

30. So you mean bush2 is actually a freedom hating terrorist?

Well...Yes! Yes, he is!

Spot on!

:hi:

[aquart]

57. See how easy that was?

[drmeow]

17. As far as I'm concerned

the sex lives of politicians should not be news unless:

1) they are trying to pass laws that restrict other people's sex lives
2) they are arrested because of sexual behavior
3) they run the risk of committing treason because of sex

They can have orgies on the floor of the Senate for all I f**king care as long as they

1) Restore checks and balances
2) Close Guantanamo and stop torture
3) Stop the war
4) Refrain from initiating wars of aggression
5) Restore our rights
6) Provide universal health care
7) Tax the rich and corporations (especially those that send jobs overseas)
8) Protect the environment
9) Leave women's bodies alone
10) Arrest all the key players in Bush's administration and extradite them to stand trial for war crimes

I could go on.

[Norwood]

19. Heres what dissapointed me about this whole thing

and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the same way.

The fact that his wife had cancer (or recovering from it as the case may be) and he still decided to mess around on her. I don't care if it was in remission that's just fucked up. To top it all off, it was on Elizabeth Edwards, a woman who really is an amazing person.

What kinda got on my nerves as well is this... Edwards appeared with Elizabeth and his children quite often, giving you the "Hey look at me, I'm a family man with good morals" impression or something like that and this affair just makes him reek of hypocrisy, and I really hate hypocrisy.

If it wasn't for these two reasons, I probably wouldn't even give a damn....but now Edwards just becomes another politician to me.

[Truth4Justice]

25. Excactly. Just another lying, cheating dirtbag lawyer. How awful for his wife. There are no words..

[AlGore-08.com]

24. It's bad judgment all around for him - - especially paying her the $114,000 in PAC money

For a job that she had no experience in and hasn't continued in since her gig for Edwards.

If their affair was over, it was stupid of him to hire his ex-mistress for a gig that would just inspire questions among other staffers and the press.

If their affair was still going on, it was bone stupid of him to hire his mistress for a gig that would just inspire questions among other staffers and the press.

I personally am in the camp of people who think married pols should not be given a pass when they have an affair. It needs to be confirmed whether the President (or Senator or Governor or Slab City Council Member) is using public funds or campaign funds to pay for his/her paramour(s). (Remember how everybody here was righteously indignant when it came out that Rudy Guiliani used city cars to shuttle his mistress around in?) Pols should also be watched to make sure they're not funneling government or campaign money to their spouses, children, in-laws, siblings, etc., etc., etc. without a d*mn good reason.

If you go into politics, you are agreeing to have your private life be an open book. Just like if you go into medicine, you are agreeing to work insane hours or if you go into the military you are agreeing to put your life in jeopardy for policies you may not even agree with.

[and-justice-for-all]

29. Has it crossed anyones mind that...

it could have been consensual between John and Elizabeth? Perhaps, since Elizabeth was not able to fulfill a particular need while she was ill and between them, made it OK for him to do so.

People have needs and desires. I do not put people on pedestals, it is just a set up for a major let down.

[LeFleur1]

31. Character

I don't understand those who are isolating stupid decisions and actions from the whole of the person.
People are what they are.
Edwards is a cheat and a liar and not fit to be anyone's President or even Senator or Representative. He stood in front of cameras and told us lies. He lied to his wife and children, to his friends, to the country. He took our money by pretending he was something he wasn't. He's a liar and a cheat.
Anyone who takes vows and the truth as lightly as he did isn't a man/person of good character. Nor is he someone people would want making decisions for our country.

The excuse...Everyone does it is pure bullshit. Everyone doesn't do it and those who do, then try to cover it up are dishonest and suspect.
Those people, who in the past have cheated and lied are not of the highest quality, either. Bill Clinton ruined an otherwise decent career because he couldn't control his urges.

Maybe it's time to elect women to office. Maybe they have more control over their biological urges, and are better equipped to run the country.

[MonteLukast]

71. But in Bill Clinton's case...

... his lack of control over his sexual urges was longstanding and pervasive.

Edwards is not even in the same category as that. His affair was not part of a pattern as it was for Clinton.

[ensho]

34. sexual needs are not that strong! to make a man cheat.

that's kool aide

saying a man's sexual needs overwhelmed him.

bosh!

[ensho]

32. cheaters of a feather flock together

since you are a cheater yourself its no wonder you think cheaters are just human beings making wrong choices. nothing to loss sleep over.

[varkam]

35. I would be interested to know...

where I said that it is no big deal and nothing to lose sleep over. I would additionally be interested to know where I said that my own experiences with it are no big deal and nothing to lose sleep over. Oh, wait, I didn't say that, did I? I mean, I didn't think I would, seeing as how the consequences of my own actions have caused myself and those that I care for great pain - something I have lost a good deal of sleep over.

May you live in interesting times, friend.

[krabigirl]

36. lol, i bet you are perfect.

[and-justice-for-all]

53. I am beginging to think that alot of people..

see themselves as somehow morally superior and have never EVER done anything wrong...EVER.:eyes:

[cabbage08]

38. kick

[EFerrari]

39. I'm so with you, varkam.

1) I see no benefit in promoting the (right wing) idea that our private lives are any of the public business.

2) People who make mistakes do not tend to benefit from punishment. They benefit from understanding, empathy and encouragement.

Either way the public pillorying of John Edwards, let alone the couple, seems vastly inappropriate to me. I am embarrassed for DU over the last few days.

[MonteLukast]

72. Exactly. You don't *learn* anything from being punished.

[LWolf]

40. How about this:

People, public or private, regardless of race, gender, class, or any other qualifier, should be held to higher standards of honor and integrity.

That would include not making excuses for people who dishonor others.

That's what infidelity does. It dishonors the cheater and the cheatee.

It harms other people.

Mistakes? Sure. That's one way to spin it.

How about this:

People have choices. The honorable choice, the choice with integrity, is to abstain from self-gratification at the expense of others.

Just hurting yourself? Fine. Hurting anyone else? Not okay.

Or how about this: it's time for people to walk their talk, and stop making excuses. Is that such an unreasonable expectation? If your not willing to do the walk, don't do the talk?

[Whisp]

43. the bar is getting lower and lower in so many ways.

isn't it?

it's not okay to cheat and lie. it's that simple.

it shouldn't be 'expected' that politicians do this all the time - so what's the big deal.

and government, well we all know they're screwing us but what the heck! there's always a few good jokes in there while we are being robbed and pillaged!

wars, we all know too they are not for ideals, but for profits for a few at the expense of many. but hey, tha'ts the way the cookie crumbles, whatcha gonna do!

it's just this kind of collective acceptance of the unacceptable that is truly killing us all.

[LWolf]

51. You nailed that one. nt

[TorchTheWitch]

76. ding, ding, ding!!!

This is one of those very few times I wish I could rec a single post. You nailed it exactly. Bravo!

[varkam]

46. I'm not making any excuses.

Re-read the OP: I never said that he should be absolved of responsibility. Here's the relevant passage:

[LWolf]

52. You may not be,

but the front page of GD exhibits plenty of them.

I did read your whole post; the passage you meant to reference is blank.

[omega minimo]

42. how stupid do they (know) we are?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3771313

[ProSense]

45. Consequences

People tend to want a punitive consequence attached to lying. When little Johnny lies, Mommy scolds him, or at least explains why lying is wrong.

For Edwards, he needed to issue a sincere apology. He didn't come off as sincere. He also has to live with criticism for extremely poor judgment: running for President and carrying on an affair at the same time.

For Bush, the consequences for lying should be a war crimes trial. If it were up to me, he'd be on his way to the Hague.

Did anyone really expect that Edwards' exposure for lying would be met with a shrug?

Ideally, the consequences are one of the things that keep us from repeating said mistakes.

That is why the notion that no one should criticize Edwards for extreme arrogance and lying is ludicrous.

The fact that his story still has so many holes in it isn't a sign that he's learning from his mistake. It's a sign he's still trying to cover his ass.

[kiva]

47. Yup, it amazes me that so many here are so ready to toss him overboard.

Let's ignore anything he contributed to the country and the party, he's gone...

[LanternWaste]

48. No one's sex life is any of my business--

As Edwards is not the nominee nor do I live in Carolina, his sex life is simply not any of my business-- there are enough (religious AND secular) puritans telling us who can sleep with who and why it's moral or immoral to do so.

However, I won't point any fingers at his sex life lest fingers get pointed back toward me. And, as Edwards has never legislated (as far as I know) any bills aimed at criminalizing adultery, it's a non-issue that will only get play on A.M. radio and the by the sexual busy-bodies...

[question everything]

49. It is judgment

If you've read many threads here, you'd realize that for most of us who are angry and disappointed with him, and with Elizabeth, is the poor judgment.

In these days of the Internet, and blogs, and 24/7 cable news constantly searching to fill time and space, who could have they thought that they could get a way with it?

He should have come clean before declaring his candidacy. Then test the waters to see if most of us would find this a private matter, I think we would. And then start his campaign.

Had our wishes been fulfilled, he would have been our nominee now, and then the campaign would collapse, taking with him any chances of taking over Congress.

This is why we are angry. No, we do not hold them to higher standard of moral behavior, but we except a sound judgment and political savvy. And while most of us did not care (not much) about his 28,000 sq. ft. mansion, it now does fit into the picture. He should have waited with this house until after the campaign added. To talk about poverty and to live in such a house also shows a poor judgment.

[progressoid]

50. That's worth more than 2 cents.

:thumbsup:

[kiteinthewind]

55. Thank you for this post. I don't think people realize the 'natural consequences'

this is having on him (family, political, etc.). I, also, do not give him a pass, but I would like to think that people, when they reflect on their own lives, remember the mistakes they have made and, hopefully, were beneficiaries of forgiveness, as well as growth as human beings who learn from mistakes. Ye who is without sin, cast the first stone. :thumbsup:

[Stand and Fight]

56. Kicked and recommended. n/t

[Evoman]

58. I'm a horn-dog, but even I could keep it in my pants for a little while if I was running for pres.

You cheat on your spouse AFTER you get into power, not before. As cool as your spouse is with it (and I'd bet you a pretty penny Elizabeth doesn't give a shit about his infidelity), the majority of puritan bastards in the U.S. are not. They're judgemental, their busybodies, and their superior (and most of them are probably hypocrites too boot).

Not that I'm suprised with the cheating, mind you. Hell, I don't give a shit. Now that he isn't the nominee, I say put it in whatever holes you fucking want, dude.

[liberalpress]

62. In a perfect world I would agree

but for the last 30 years we've been living under Lee Atwater/Krl Rove politics. If any Democrat running for public office even accidentally touched a woman's boob while reaching for a newspaper they'll make it front page news in an attempt tp embarass te candidate and his famioy. Why not just admit your mistakes upfront, admitting to anything major you may have done to make their strategy ineffective.

It isn't anybody else's business. In poliics, that statement has been dead longer than Lee Atwater

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. agreed. i think his affair is none of our business, however he should have known

better than to run for president

[Occam Bandage]

66. So, expecting politicians to not funnel donations to their lied-about mistresses

is holding them to a higher standard? More pathetic attempts to defend the sleazebag.

[MonteLukast]

73. That is the part I'm worried about.

He will have to do everything in his power to prove the money he paid her did not come from our donations.

Why does everyone assume that first she became the mistress, second she was hired? I don't think this is right.

[EFerrari]

74. If there's a money issue, he should fix it. He can. He's wealthy.

He didn't kill anyone. He didn't start a war. He didn't sell your natural resources to Exxon. Where is your sense of proportion? Jesus.

[Occam Bandage]

75. I'm not furious at him, as I am at Bush. I simply think he's a sleazebag unworthy

of further concern.

[EFerrari]

78. Actually, I just remembered that I'm wrong. He did vote for the war. n/t

[alarimer]

79. ALL politicians are scum.

I don't trust anyone running for president. They lie and cheat for a living.

I wouldn't cheat in my relationships so why should politicians get a pass?

Republicans cheat on their wives left and right. Democrats should be better than that. We need to stop rewarding these cheating assholes. Let Edwards go back to suing mega-corporations. He did some good there, but he needs to stay out of politics.