The dilemma of the stay at home mom/wife

[The Backlash Cometh]

I have been a stay at home mom for at least twenty years. It wasn't Plan A. I developed health issues which made the decision for me and, thankfully, I was healthy enough to raise the kids, though not much of a multi-tasker for about a dozen years. Health is doing fine now, thank you, but these are clips of my observations:

Sometime when the kids were very young, maybe fifteen years ago, I had to break my support from NOW. It happened during the peak of my poor health when I relied 100% on my husband financially as well as emotionally. NOW spotted me because I wrote an article in the paper that supported woman's rights at a time when the conservatives were first making an impact in the 90s. I became a member for a couple of years, but during those years, my husband had a female boss who was making it very difficult for most white males and a few black males, in order to favor women and certain males. That was the perception. That's the short of it. She later got sued because at least one or two people found her methods heavy handed but that's just added to point out that I'm not being facetious about my observations. So, I was on the phone with the NOW representative telling her how confused I was over this, because, as much as I supported woman's rights, I knew my husband's work ethic well enough to understand he was getting rail-roaded by some very mean-spirited politics. I asked her if it made sense that I was a stay at home mom, who wrote donation checks to NOW with money earned by my husband's salary when he was coming home almost every day with fears he was going to be the next on the chopping block? To her credit, the woman on the phone said she understood my dilemma and that they had been talking about that very issue. I never heard from them again, which was a good thing because I felt we left on good terms. They had their priorities, and now I understood mine.

However, as a stay at home mom, the irony is that the worst people you will ever have to deal with that will destroy your self-esteem, are conservatives. Specifically, conservative males. Blue-collar conservatives, though that is who I bump into mostly. And the words that will cut you to ribbons, should you ever get into a disagreement with them is, "Get a job!" It works every time. And this criticism comes up, a great often, when you show you have the facts to debate them on an issue, when you can prove you have facts that they haven't even heard of. Suddenly, you become the "bored stay at home mom." They do everything to denigrate you to discredit what you know.

Okay, so here I was thinking that this was all in my head, that I was just being too sensitive and that being a stay at home mom was no biggie to most people, and I come up with this poll in my local paper:

Stay at home wives

More and more educated women are choosing to give up their careers to become stay-at-home wives. Do you think this is socially acceptable?
Yes. It is difficult to run a household. (1360 responses)
58.5%
No. These indulgent women just want their husbands to support them. (378 responses)
16.3%
I don't care. (587 responses)
25.2%
2325 total responses (Results not scientific)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/

I mean, WTF? Why would anyone even think about coming up with such a poll? Do people feel they have a right to be so judgmental on someone who isn't doing drugs, isn't drinking excessively, isn't holding office to steal from the neighbors, doesn't want to go into the real estate business where you're constantly lying to turn over sales?

Is it jealousy? Is it resentment? Can anyone explain what's going on here?

[treestar]

1. It proves what hypocrites conservatives are

They think the woman should stay at home, except, well, when the woman stays at home and is a liberal.

I believe originally welfare for dependent children was meant to allow the mother to stay at home, as all mothers did back at that time. That is consistent with right winger opinion on what women should do. But now their anti-welfare bit takes precedence.

Psychologically, right wingers are pathetic in their desperate need to have someone to put down. They could as equally, in this area that challenges their assumptions, praise the mother for not gettng a job and being on welfare for the good of being at home with her kids, as they assert all good women should do. The fact they choose to go negative speaks volumes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. There does appear to be a split in their conservative values.

How can they, both, believe women should stay home and raise their children and then not support welfare for single moms? The fact that there is discongruity, suggests there is another dark purpose that we're not seeing readily. First, they claim that women should be home raising kids, because that's one less woman they have to compete with for a job; yet they don't want that woman at home on welfare because they don't want to have to raise taxes to help her raise the children.

So, it all comes down to money. Everything comes down to money. If we understand that, we might actually be able to eliminate all the other high and pious crap they use to try to confuse you.

[treestar]

30. True, their hero Raygun blamed women working for unemployment

among men. True they don't want to pay taxes that might help someone else live the same values they demand others follow. They are desperate to believe that one can always have a job. Relatively secure themselves, the spector of their own possible unemployment frightens them so much they don't want to admit it can be possible that they could ever be out of a job and unable to find a new one.

[SoCalDem]

2. It's all of the above

because it's a personal choice that everyone makes for their own reasons..

I made the choice because we were moving very often (5 states-3 years), and I had 3 boys in 5 years, and the oldest one had surgery at Mayo Clinic 4-5 times a year for eight long years, so financially and logistically, it made NO sense for me to try and hold down a job..

When our youngest was in school all day I did get an outside job, but it was mainly for insurance coverage..did it for 10 years, and then came back home.. I wanted to go to our youngest's soccer practices and to his away-football games, and did not want to have to duke it our with a boss for the time off I wanted..

This issue is very much a push-pull issue for most women. If they spent a lot of time & money getting a degree, they feel cheated, no matter which course they plot. Moms at work because they have to resent not being the one to see the baby's first steps, or hearing the sitter repeat the first word.. They are pissed to have to leave a sick baby with a sitter. they are worried for their safety sometimes..

But if they stay home and they really want to work, they can resent the kids for "holding them back"..and the empty space in the career cannot easily be filled..

of course many Dads I know lament the fact that they HAVE to work, whether they want to or not.. I guess there's no solution :(

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. It took me about eighteen years to realize that, in the end, this was

the right choice for my family. Things would have been far worse for my kids if I had not been here for them. My own mother worked and I never got to know her well, I always tensed up whenever I was around her because she was always tense from working all day and had little patience to get to know her children on their own terms. She was a wonderful role model, though, and maybe because she was so focused and uncompromising, it did set a good example for the straight and narrow, even if it was an extremely stressful situation for everyone. I don't think there really is a smooth transition out of poverty.

[glowing]

3. I think some are mean and many are very jealous...

I've been trying to find a way to be at home more myself. I would love for my husband to break from the middle road into the next pay pack, and I would take the time off to raise small children and get my masters degree. But for now it takes two gruelling schedules and shitty pay to barely scrape by...

I am envious. I hate the idea of babysitters raising my children. Maybe one day, or maybe never. I have found many women my age (29) who express the same thing. Its not bad having a job and being independent, but when its time to raise children, we want the time to do it. We missed our mother's and don't want the tired woman straggling home, telling the kids, shhh, let me have a 1/2hr, when really all they want is to see their mother. Its a big fat sucky thing... AND really, I've said it, I don't really care if its me or my hubby, one of us should be there for our kid on a better schedule. As it is now, my son says.. "no, no one go to work, please stay home" He'll be heading back to pre-school soon, I won't feel so damn guilty for failing the little man.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. My mother was that tired mom, coming home from work.

But we lived outside the US so she got help from a grandmother and maid. She was still a bear as a mother, so my heart goes out to every career woman who truly has to do this alone.

[calimary]

31. My best friend is that woman. Married this cute and much-younger guy,

handsome, virile, took himself out of the picture with a freak motorcycle accident. She was left alone with two small children, a mom who wasn't speaking to her and a sister who lived off her own resentments and jealousies of her sibling who'd always been taller, slimmer, prettier, and more popular than she. So my friend has slogged through years, by now, of frantic juggling, a succession of odd jobs, piecemeal cobbling an income together, begging favors, making barter arrangements, FOR YEARS. She's tired, frustrated, nervous, worried ALL THE TIME, and she looks ten years older than I do - and we're the same age (I'm actually a few months older). She's worked LIKE A DOG, all her life, with virtually no help beyond a nanny with whom she's also made all kinds of bargains and alternate arrangements. All of us who are her friends, of course, have tried to help out as much as we can, too, but she's still basically alone. And did I mention she's also an actress - MAGNIFICENT in her born-with-it talent and of course, one of thousands of middle-aged actresses here in So Cal who are too old for the ingenue roles and the beach bunny roles on the teen soaps et al. She gets by. I don't know how. She could have used that spousal income so she could have stayed home with the kids as she longed to. But she schlepped all over the country chasing work just to keep the wolves away at home.

And that's just ONE single mother I know. The struggle is just maddening! Some people just do not have a clue. And sometimes they're cruel.

And sometimes they're cruel because they don't have a clue. I got fired one time because I was in a job that had first been offered to a man (the friend of the program director at that radio station) but the man was in another city and hopelessly in love, so he wasn't about to relocate. But, as all things go, the love affair fizzled. Suddenly the man was interested in the job again and called his pal the PD in Los Angeles and said - "uh, say... that job isn't still open, is it?" And his friend of course said - "yes it most certainly is! It's yours as soon as you can get here!" And then he called me into his office to lower the boom. What stung was - he actually had the lunk-headedness to say - "well, you'll be okay. At least you have a husband who's working." Turns out, at that particular time, my husband was NOT working - he'd been laid off and was having difficulty finding something new. And when I said so, and added that my job was the only paycheck we had at that moment, the PD looked at me with a blank expression and then finally said - "oh." That was a pleasant day. :sarcasm:

It's just fucked. When I think of how hard my best friend has struggled, the indignities she's had to endure, the necessities she's had to do without, the way she's limping toward the finish line now that her daughter's in college and her son's about to graduate high school - it just breaks my heart. She deserves better than that. FAR BETTER. Never in her life for one moment has she been self-indulgent or lazy or entitled to anything. She's labored in the back of the vineyard FOR YEARS so her kids could have what they needed. Just burns me up. The deck is still SO stacked. It's fucked. And too, too, too many people just do not care, and do not understand. HEAVEN FORBID some of their taxes might have to be raised to help those who need help so desperately and have so little.

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. It was easier when it was easy to network.

You at least had small groups you could socialize with and get help when you needed, but for no other reason than you liked each other as friends. But networking today just means finding prospects for the next Party Lights gathering. We truly have lost the art of befriending people, because we're reminded that every relationship we make must lead to a monetary benefit, or must be exploitable in some way.

[calimary]

49. Yeah - you have to be able to "get something" out of it, whatever it is.

Somebody somewhere here said (just this weekend) - it all comes down to money. That's where our values have gone. They all have a price tag attached.

Everybody's just so frickin' mercenary anymore.

And my friend is STILL struggling. And she's tired. She's getting REALLY tired. She's done the best she could with almost no family support. But she still has the problems of Job, and sometimes, in a weary moment, she'll say "you know, sometimes I feel as though, in another life, I must have run over God's dog."

It's through NO fault of her own! Just shitty circumstances.

[kdmorris]

4. I was a stay at home mom for 8 years

Now my husband is a stay at home dad. It was hard for me, because women who choose to stay at home are perceived as lazy people who just want their husband to support them.

That being said, I believe that my husband has it about 200 times worse than I ever did. The perception of stay at home dads is pretty shitty. He's been here with our daughters for 10 years, raising them, educating them and being there for them. But telling anyone that.... it's a real conversation killer. "Hi, I'm a stay at home Dad"... and every one looks at him as if he suddenly grew a third eye. I've seen a couple of people move away from him, which I have to say totally confuses me. It's like being a Stay at Home Dad is something contagious and horrible to catch.

People who believe that they get to judge others, like the idiots that came out with this poll...well, they suck, that's all. Unless someone is abusing or neglecting their kids, I always start with the assumption that they are doing the best they can with the belief that what they are doing is the right thing to do for the kids. I may not agree with them, but I can't judge them. Otherwise, they get the right to say that things I feel are right for my children are wrong and stupid.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. I certainly feel sorry for the stay at home dad.

If I feel I lack a support system, I can't even imagine what they're going through.

[seabeyond]

18. well, i would love to be introduced to him, a huge smile and excitement

that here is a man giving his children something realy really special that so many men miss out on.

the few times i have met a sah dad i have always embraced and valued

[Fuzz]

87. I'm a stay at home Dad with two daughters

I've been there. There are more of us now. When I first started this adventure, I hardly saw any other dad's at the school. There are more of us now, or at least more of us that are there at the school. But the looks I would get!

I remember the first day of kindergarten for my oldest. She was on the cover of the local paper. The caption read "Daughter's name waves goodbye to her Mom on the first day of school". I was like wtf?! It was me! lol

[The Backlash Cometh]

92. That had to be a keeper.

:-)

[Berry Cool]

5. Is the stay-at-home trend really as big as they're claiming it is?

I'm curious to know from what statistic they're deriving their statement "More and more educated women are choosing to give up their careers to become stay-at-home wives." I'm not so sure it's true, except for maybe the super-rich. Most middle-class couples can't afford to do without earning two incomes just to stay afloat.

As for the poll, there's no real reason for the newspaper to create it other than to attempt to be provocative while trying to get their readers to be "interactive" and respond to a survey. Sometimes you have to say things that will provoke some people to anger or strong opinion to get people to respond to a "survey." Real scientific pollers don't try to do that, though, because they want unbiased, impartial results. That's not the goal here. The poll is unscientific, designed to provoke strong emotion rather than anything else. You need not be concerned about it.

My only concern for stay-at-home wives and mothers (assuming the husband/father is OK with bearing the burden of being their sole financial support) is whether they have some sort of "backup financial plan" to keep themselves and their kids afloat if they lose the husband/father as source of income. Are they well insured? What would they do if the man became incapacitated, died or, God forbid, left them? Chances are a woman who has stayed at home for years without earning a paycheck won't be able to smoothly re-enter the job market because of having been out of it for so long. She will also have lost out on many years of Social Security earnings of her own for all those years when she had no income.

If conservative males are telling you "Get a job!," my response would be "Does your wife have a job?" Chances are the answer would be "No, I support her while she raises our children." You answer "Funny, that's exactly what I do for MY husband, which is why I don't have a job."

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. I have no idea who came up with this poll.

Nor why. First, it is a poll hatching in Orlando, and I can tell you from my own beliefs, that it is difficult for an educated, intelligent woman who doesn't want to compromise her principles or her self-esteem, to find work around here. It is a very cronyistic way of life, down here, and you have to be willing to look the other way, to get along and keep the job.

[Triana]

75. I doubt the trend is anything remarkable but surveys like that are meant to..

...give women/people the impression it is - in order to encourage more of them to stay home - like most conservatives would like women to do - stay home barefoot and pregnant.

And, like you - I worry too about women who do stay home - what happens if their husband loses his income or they lose their husband - for whatever reason? Can they make it alone having been out of the workforce and having no source of income for themselves and their kids?

For women, financial INDEPENDENCE is even more important because women are usually the primary parent. The dilemma of how sah moms can retain financial independence is just that - a dilemma. I resent that women are forced - for whatever reasons - to put themselves and their kids at risk by not having financial independence when they stay at home.

I don't know any solutions - but it just seems really risky for women and kids - they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

CONservative males haven't a clue about a great many things. The narcissistic/sociopathic/self-entitled attitudes are really prominent in discussions about women and financial independence. If she works and is a mom - she's selfish and just wants money to spend on shoes. If she stays at home - she's selfish - and just wants a husband to take care of her. Neither is correct, of course.

This is the old tactic of men DEFINING women in negative terms and then subsequently proceeding to debase and insult them based on those definitions - nevermind how WRONG the definitions are.

Meanwhile, women put themselves and their kids at risk trying to do the right thing and work and struggle.

I don't have the answers. I DO know how goddamned unfair it is and that CONservative males never got out of the cave and learned to walk upright instead of on all fours.

I have no use for them or their attitudes.

My best wishes and sympathies to all working moms out there and ALL OF THEM are "working" moms - whether they do it for a corporate paycheck or not.

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. Thanks for a good post.

It is true, all stay at home moms and wives work without expecting a paycheck. My strengths may not be cleaning house, but when it comes time to do it, I do the bulk of it. Where I do get taken for granted is when I do things for other people's kids. These are the kind of things that people charge $400.00 for one weekend, and I do it throughout an entire athletic season for their kids. It's full time volunteer work, but because they don't see me choring over the computer, they just think I'm a slouch. It gets very depressing. Also, as a stay at home mom, you try your best not to spend too much money on things that might take away from the budget. There's a lot of austere living going on. You get haircuts maybe every three or four months, never do pedicures of manicures, make-up is down to lipstick, blush and eyeliner. Everything is brass-bones.

[PDJane]

6. I don't think it's either jealousy or resentment......

It's part of the shift that has taken place. All of a sudden, everyone and her sister have an opinion on your lifestyle and what you do with your life. I think it's partly the fascist shift and partly religion, which gives others a vantage point to make judgements and decisions about others.

[CTyankee]

7. "Get a job" AACK! What the hell do they think raising kids is? A big vacation?

I have often said this, "The most important job a person can have is being a parent to a child. It is also the hardest job."

That said, I have also talked with moms with outside jobs who agree with me BUT say that they have BOTH jobs since when they get home from the day job they still have the housework --sort of the "second shift" thing. I've seen it wear down many a woman in the workplace and I've been there myself.

[Berry Cool]

8. They only have the housework when they get home from the day job if they assume it themselves.

Why don't they just tell their husbands "Look, we both work. Where is it written that housework and taking care of the kids are still my job?"

I read something many, many years ago that pointed out that if two men became apartment mates (whether it was a college situation, or they were gay partners, or whatever) and one was white and the other was black, people would immediately be outraged if the white man assumed that the black man, as the descendant of people who for many years have been slaves, janitors and maids, was going to take primary responsbility for keeping the apartment clean (with the white guy only "helping out" once in a while on tasks he enjoyed). Yet every day, men and women set up house together, married or not, and the woman ends up taking the primary burden of housekeeping and child care onto herself, without anyone even talking about it or any questions being asked.

It should make us furious. But it doesn't. And THERE lies the problem.

Wives and mothers: If you don't like "the second shift," DON'T JUST TAKE IT ON. Sit the man of the house down, and pose to him the scenario above about the black guy and the white guy sharing an apartment. Then make it clear to him that you were not put on this earth to be a maid or a nanny and that if both of you made the mess and the children, both of you need to deal with them. Equally.

[wildflower]

39. I think the problem with that is...

Some husbands/partners say to the woman, "Well, fine, I don't need the house to be cleaned every week." Or, "Who cares what other people think? My friends/family/co-workers don't care if our house is messy." Then the woman is the one who gets blamed by those friends/family/co-workers for the lack of housekeeping.

That's been my experience, anyway. Sit the partner down and ask for help with the chores, and the answer is "If you don't want to do those chores, just don't do them. They don't need to be done so often anyway."

[Berry Cool]

52. And to that I'd say "Hallelujah!"

I guess I just don't have as high a standard of what constitutes "clean" as most women do. I hear woman after woman saying "Well yeah, that would be fine, but my husband/partner has a way lower standard of cleanliness and a higher bar of when things need to be cleaned than I do, and I can't stand having things be a mess until he's motivated to clean them up." Well then, if that's your hangup, you have signed yourself on to a lifetime of being your husband/partner's maid. No thanks.

If other people blame the woman for a house not being properly cleaned to THEIR standard, whose problem is that? I'd tell them "I'm not in charge of housekeeping; it's a shared responsibility. We decide when things need to be cleaned and we are happy with the decisions we have made. If you don't like it, tough toenails, but don't look at me just because I'm the woman."

I might also describe for them the scenario of the white and black male housemates. Might just shut 'em up.

[Xithras]

96. Yep, that's pretty much my opinion on it.

My wife used to ride my back about cleaning the house all the time. She was CONSTANTLY cleaning, and was always complaining that I didn't "do my share".

The problem was that I thought it was INSANE that she felt that the counters needed to be sanitized every day, the carpets needed vacuuming every other day, that the showers needed to be rinsed and scrubbed daily, etc. IMO, carpets should be vacuumed weekly OR when there's visible dirt to be picked up. Ditto on mopping the kitchen floor. Counter areas used for cooking should be 409'ed after the meal is done, but "kitchen sterilization" is an every other week thing. Windows? Twice annually, at the beginning and end of summer, AT MOST (unless one of the kids flings something onto them, in which case the mess will be spot cleaned).

My wife thought that was being slovenly. Tough on her. As long as the house isn't visibly dirty and doesn't smell funny, I'm happy. If she wants it STERILE and thinks rooms should be cleaned whether they appear to need it or not, she needs to take care of it. I don't care if there's a little surface dust on the mantle over the fireplace...dusting once or twice a month to keep it from building up is good enough for me. I'm not going to waste a perfectly good evening, an evening that could be spent playing in the yard with the kids, digging in the garden, or fishing on the river, satisfying her need to have a home clean enough to grace the cover of Good Housekeeping. If she wants to waste her time trying to keep it looking that clean, she can do it herself. I don't expect her to keep it that clean and I've told her on countless occassions that I do NOT like the fact that she's so obsessed with having a spotless home, so I'm not going to be guilted on the fact that she does 80% of the housework in the home. It's her choice that she do it, not mine.

I vacuum once a week or when I make a mess, I clean the windows twice a year, and I 409 the counters after I make dinner. I mop the floors in the kitchen and dining room once every few weeks, and the bathrooms a bit more often than that since there are three males in the home, two of whom are young and prone to missing the toilet. I am willing to split the work needed to keep the house looking presentable and reasonable. I am not willing to take on 50% of the work to meet her unreasonable need to keep our house looking like a model home.

Luckily for the continued happiness of our marriage, she figured that out and accepted it years ago. I don't think we've even had a discussion about our relative housecleaning responsibilities in the better part of a decade.

[hfojvt]

97. are you sure he's not already helping with the chores?

Or does yardwork not count? Things like changing oil, cutting grass, doing plumbing, locksmithing, carpentry, etc., are typically male chores. Probably shovelling snow too, if you live in that climate.

[CTyankee]

40. But that is not taking into account single moms. I know. I was one.

And I had friends who were, also. No money for any outside help (at one point I had two jobs (a night/weekend job in addition to my full time one).

So the "second shift" for us was just the way it was. Of course, youput on your big girl pants and just do it, but it ain't easy.

[Berry Cool]

53. I'm not talking about single moms, obviously.

Obviously, single moms, unless they can afford help (and most can't), are stuck doing their own housework and getting the kids to help if they have any, once they're old enough. I should know. I was raised by one.

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. There's no question that raising children is extremely stressful.

I have a single friend who was with us during all those hard times, we saw him and traveled with him during that period whenever we could break away from the kids to get to a college friend's wedding etc. and to this day he'll say, "Do you remember when we were in the lobby waiting for the reception doors to open and this old lady came in smashed and we laughed at her and we found out later she was the mother of the groom?" Now, you would think that something that funny would be emblazoned in my memory, but I had no recollection of it. I have no recollection of plays that people claim I saw in New York with them, nor of conversations that people claim we had. It's all gone. When I say those years were stressful, I mean, I was barely making it through from day to day.

[pitohui]

66. if it was a job they'd pay you for it

the trouble is that words do have a meaning

[Warpy]

9. First, if you're a woman with children, no matter what you do

you're going to be wrong. Accept that as a fact of life, that it doesn't matter if you work outside the home or devote your life to your family, whether or not you've got a trust fund that makes you independent or an illness that renders you too disabled to cope. You're always going to be wrong.

Second, supporting women's rights doesn't mean you have to support female assholes. Recognize they exist primarily because the only way to compete in a world of male assholes is to become a female asshole. This was especially true in the early years of breaking into "male" jobs.

My best and worst bosses were women. The best ones were true to themselves and the worst ones were trying to fit into the competitive corporate mold.

Third, choose your friends wisely. If conservatives are thrust into your life, be civil but tune them out. They're toxic personalities and you do need to limit your exposure. You will never please them.

You are who you are and your life is what it is. Screw anybody who is disappointed because you're not living the life they want to choose for you.

[seabeyond]

13. If conservatives are thrust into your life.... i have become more and more isolated

after 15 yrs raising a family in the panhandle of texas. i really noticed it last years. 11 yrs of volunteering and mother day out programs and being a part of my community, last year in pta i had one mother make a snide comment about hippies in calif and then a comment she would rather celebrate robert e lee day instead of martin luther..... not to mention talk about our segregated poor black community and the problems in their school by two members, i just could not go to another meeting after not missing one in two years.

and from there on out, i cant hardly go out of my house to socialize. i just cannot do it any more. i was telling self this year i have to get back out there and realized how i cannot be a part of these people anymore.

so isolated i will probably stay. at least with a comprehension to why this happened.

[yardwork]

19. I'm sorry that is happening to you, and I understand. I was there.

As I mention downthread, I was a stay at home mom for 15 years. Even in my fairly progressive area I became very isolated. I discovered that, despite the high levels of education in my community, many of the other suburban moms (those working outside the home as well as stay at homes) had no interest in anything beyond their children and their social lives. They didn't even know who was running for mayor! Had no interest in local, state, or national politics unless someone they knew was running for school board.

I became very depressed and ended up staying in the house a lot. sleeping when my kids were at school, spending hours on the internet. I gained weight. It was not a good existence.

When circumstances forced me to go back to full-time work outside the home, I discovered a side benefit. People to talk with who know about current events and care about what is happening to the country and world! I also lost weight and became much more energetic.

I strongly recommend getting a job outside the house if you are feeling isolated.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. I bet it was easy to find people who could hold a good political discussion

when you lived in a progressive area. Many of us don't and the experience won't be quite as positive.

[yardwork]

65. No, it's still difficult. Most people are willfully ignorant.

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. Thank you, seabeyond.

Isolation is definitely a hazard. I feel my isolation began around 1998, definitely set in by the time Al Gore had his election stolen: Oh, and I started shedding friends and family soon after we invaded Iraq because it wasn't a healthy environment for me to be around people like that who fully expected you to agree with them, or be considered unpatriotic and aiding the enemy.

[seabeyond]

25. exactly. in my area a peace sign is a bad thing. what does that say.

my kids talk about "them". texans. hubby who is a born and bred texan laughs and says them is you....

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. Friends are very hard to come by around these parts.

[Berry Cool]

54. And if you're a woman WITHOUT children, you're going to be wrong too.

If married, you'll constantly be asked when the pitter-patter of itty-bitty feet will be heard in your house. If single, you'll be looked at askance for not having gotten married AND had children. Many will assume you're a lesbian--whether or not they are OK with that. And there's really nothing you can do about it.

[seabeyond]

10. prior to marriage and kids i scorned sah. then with babies i didnt like it on one hand,

the selfless work 24/7 day after day, but on the other hand i was blessed and so thankful and wouldnt have it any other way.

now kids are 13 and 10 and i dont give a shit what others think or expect out of me. it works wonderfully in our house. hubby brings home the money and i do the rest leaving both of us with plenty of down time. and my kids are balanced and healthy and doing really well. we are a connected family and staying home has allowed us to do it in the easiest of ways

i really dont care what the outside world thinks of it

i just feel lucky

so does my family

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. The world has really flip-flopped

Progressives who now understand the value of having on parent stay at home; and conservatives who feel that laziness is involved if both parents don't work.

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. I don't understand turning against NOW just cuz your husband had a bad female boss

[yardwork]

16. Yeah, I'm stuck on that too. What happened?

NOW advocates for better pay and working conditions for women, who are paid nearly half what men are paid for the same work. Of course there are bad individuals! We've all had or know of people who have had terrible bosses, men and women. Some people are jerks. What does that have to do with NOW? I feel like I'm missing something.

fwiw, I was a stay at home mom who ran my own consulting business for 15 years after my children were born. I'm now back in the full-time permanent job because I realized that I'm gay and left my husband. Consulting didn't pay enough to cover health insurance and retirement. You oughta see the right-wing heads explode when I tell them my story! LOL!

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. NOW advocates for better *comparative* working conditions.

NOW doesn't advocate for better pay for women, they advocate for better pay relative to men. They are succeeding, but not entirely because women's pay is increasing, but because mens is decreasing. Men today earn less than their fathers.
http://privatizationofrisk.ssrc.org/Warren/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7657610222796819392&ei=EimfSOj8DJ22qgPy2ckd&q=Elizabeth+Warren&vt=lf

If you're a man in the workforce, or are a woman whose family is dependent on a man's pay, they are working against your economic interests.

[yardwork]

67. What? No way. NOW is not advocating for anyone's wages to decrease.

Don't play NOW for the stupid economy.

And women's pay is still far far below that of men's.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Then I guess men's pay will continue to drop to attain parity.

Did you watch the second video?

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. I didn't turn against them. They just couldn't give me a reason why

their priorities had any direct benefit to me in their present state. They understood that. At the time, their main causes were: Keeping abortions legal and improving job opportunities and breaking glass ceilings for women. They would have supported that female boss, and what she was doing. My immediate needs put me at polar opposite of their aims and goals. They respected my situation and didn't try to debate me on an issue that they understood had no relevance to me -- no immediate relevance. It's extremely stressful to have health issues, small children, and a husband who was never sure if he was going to keep his job. It would be like Jane Fonda trying to convince the 50 year old, immigrant cleaning lady with five kids at home to join one of her exercise programs back in the 80s.

[Lorien]

85. But if your husband died and you had to work to support yourself

you might need the help of NOW. I have Fibromyalgia and CFS, but I've always had to work to support myself even though the struggle has sometimes been so hard that it was difficult to think of living even one more day. I've worked for plenty of places that have one pay scale for men and one pay scale for women. Do you have any idea how infuriating it is to be told that $30 an hour is "really good for a woman" because most women at a company only make $25 per hour, while men's pay for the EXACT SAME JOB starts at $45 an hour? I've always been more competent and more efficient at my job than the vast majority of my male coworkers-despite my physical limitations-because I had to be, but I'll never have the same rewards they do because of my gender. I'm sick and tired of the struggle and applaud any efforts to end it for the millions of us who deal with it on a daily basis.

[The Backlash Cometh]

86. There was no resentment against NOW.

Just an understanding that for my immediate needs at the time, we were working at cross-purposes. I respected them for understanding my position. As a stay at home mom, where every dollar counted, I couldn't donate to them, nor help them, and they understood why. You are, of course, also right to support NOW because you also have a worthy cause.

[Scout]

88. NOW does not blindly support all women and their actions simply because she

is a woman.

If the female boss was breaking the law, I'm sure NOW would not have supported her.

[The Backlash Cometh]

91. Hindsight is everything.

Sometimes you don't know how far to carry a cause, until the courts define the boundaries. I'm pretty sure the woman thought she was following the tenets of the time.

[LWolf]

27. I was a stay-at-home mom for about 6 years.

Sort of. I waitressed nights, took care of working friends' kids, and cleaned and cooked for an elderly neighbor to bring in a little money.

I am severely divided on the concept.

On the one hand, I think it's better for one parent to stay at home and be present for children. I think kids do better with their parents than day care, when possible. At least, I think that ought to be a choice for those parents that feel that way.

On the other hand, that scenario upsets the balance of power in a relationship. The person making the money has the power. The person making no money is a dependent, regardless of the fact that their working hours and responsibilities are probably longer than the money-maker's.

An imbalance of power is not good for the relationship. While some couples recognize the value of the contributions of both partners, without money being a factor, way too often it DOES affect the relationship.

Someone who stays at home, regardless of their education or career before, is not building a career. The longer they are out of the workforce, the less likely that they will be able to get the job, income, and career they could have, should they have to, or want to, go back to work.

If the marriage goes bad, they've paid a heavy price. Some will stay in a n unhappy marriage because of that.

I'm just not comfortable with an imbalance of power, and with the loss of earning capacity and career choices for the stay-at-home that can, and often does, occur.

What is a fair and reasonable way to protect the interests, and future interests, of the stay-at-home partner?

Finally, on the "third hand," lol, how much of the middle class, let alone those below the "middle," can afford to live on one income, anyway?

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Thanks for bringing this up.

I have been thinking about all of this within the last few weeks.

[InkAddict]

51. I too have dealth with the very issues you describe.

I married young but waited five years for the kids to come along. At that point, we had a mortgage on a condo and were close to making the same money. I stayed home six years taking care of the babies and we lived on one salary. When #2 entered kindergarten, I got a PT job, evenings and weekends, out of necessity because I could no longer make the grocery dollar stretch. A year later, he got laid off for the first time. Four jobs later after a full year of his unemployment, I had to get a FT job. Six months later he found work in another city, so I resigned a job I loved and we moved to an apartment. When the home sold, I took some of the proceeds and went to community college, but the economy was already off the track for IT workers and he was merged, outsourced, reorged, you name it.

I got a FT second-shift job so I could continue school - he was laid off when I graduated and took the expensive certification exam. However, no one would hire a new grad. The BS follow-up program in my field had left the state. I was thrilled when his employer announced they were moving and wanted to take employees because there was a program in that city, but in the end, the company took no one. Laid off again.

I asked my family about coming home at that point, but HS drop-out stay-at-home all her life Mom said I was "lazy" and should not have stayed at home w/babies if what I wanted was a career.

So, I stayed and have muddled through his job/no job ever since in one of those dying Ohio towns. The FIL got sick and went through all his assets and most of what was left of ours (The spouse is an only child).

I ended up in the hospital psych unit for a week, and when I was released, I made an attempt at separated singleness, but two months later, my boss cut my hours and started withholding for healthcare benefits which effectively cut my pay in half. We reconciled and moved again. I said good-bye to my 10-year employer and found another job in the new city.

Chase outsourced his job to the Indians here the week after bailing out BS. It's lucky our lease was just about up. My daughter and SIL now not-so-graciously house us. I doubt we will ever recover an independent life.

So much for balance of power!

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. Damn It sounds like you didn't just fall through the cracks.

You're living in it. Hang in there. I have to believe that things have to get better. I have to believe it.

[LWolf]

68. There are too many of us

who have been there, or are there. :(

[Marrah_G]

32. I wish I could be stay at home mom.

I'd like to have more time for my kids rather then just surviving each day as a single mother without completely losing my mind.

[seabeyond]

37. i just cannot fathom what the two working family has to experience

and i have so much empathy for you all. if only.....

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. It is at least as bad for stay-at-home dads.

The worst are the comments from conservative moms, which I encounter frequently (at school usually).

IMHO, a person has a moral obligation to contribute to their family to the best of their ability, according to their skills. The form of that contribution can be subject to change.

[seabeyond]

36. my middle brother would have made the best stay at home out of all of us

now he does the single parent thing and is terrific. but it is that tired all the time on the go and fitting everything in. he was really made for stay at home. me not so much. but so worth it, i have adapted.

i love and value and appreciate the stay at home dad and the gift that you get for it.... fuck em all, is so beyond what they will experience.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. Totally agree with your last point

But do you get grief? I've mostly seen any dads staying with their kids treated like superheroes just for doing that.

"Oh, isn't that great! Look, he knows how to make a sandwich!" sort of thing. Of course, it's horrendously condescending; my husband is perfectly capable of taking care of his children.

But you're probably right - under the praise is still that current of "real men get a job"...

It's just a completely twisted way of looking at the intersection of life and work that we have in this country.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. Anecdote time.

I told my wife's best friend, a 50 year old college educated teacher who has never held a teaching job (and was a stay-at-home mom for 24 years), that I was going to be doing some drafting from home. Her response was "That's great! Isn't it nice to be doing something useful again?"

The most annoying frequently comes from teachers. At my youngest son's open-house, I introduced myself to my son's new special-ed teacher (a man) who said "You're his dad? Is mom here? When I replied in the affirmative, the turned his back on me and introduced himself to her and launched into an explanation of his schedule, his curriculum etc. To her credit, she said "Whoa! Hold on a sec, dad is the stay at home parent, he needs to hear this."

He and I reached a much better understanding in the last couple of years. :)

The truth is, this wouldn't have been an option if I hadn't saved 20% of my income from 1980 to 2000. I consider myself fortunate, but at the same time, I don't consider myself undeserving.

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. We value you, lumberjack

If you lived in my area, we might even be able to start our own coffee clutch.

[krabigirl]

35. I like being a SAHM, but I am starting to do some work on the side.

Just online content writing, but it exercises my mind. I haven't earned anything yet, but I hope to in the near future as I build up my portfolio.

But back to the topic, I have no regrets as a stay-at-home mom. I was in the corporate world for thirteen years, so it's not like I never had a job. I really don't give a damn what people think about me. If I ran my life upon what is "socially acceptable," I'd have a heart attack by now.

[JerseygirlCT]

46. That's the only way to decide what to do:

what's best for you and your family, and screw everyone else and their opinions.

I was like you - the f/t at home thing was tough for me, intellectually. I started doing some consulting as soon as I could - the money wasn't much, but I needed the stimulation!

[rucky]

38. It's simply a luxury most families can't afford anymore.

Though we'd love to have one of us be stay-at-home.

[Toucano]

41. Kicking to comment later when I have more mental energy. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. God bless you.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Oh yes. This is a constant thing, I think.

I've done it all - working out of the home f/t, working p/t, working from home, not working while at home... run the gamut over the years. And I'll tell you something: there's never a situation in which a woman is NOT judged for her choice wrt work.

If she's working f/t, and her children are in daycare, she's a negligent mother who cares more for her own ambition than for her children.

If she's working less than f/t, she's lazy.

If she's home with her children, she's lazy, and content to leech off someone else.

I don't ever hear the same judgements about men... If THEY choose to stay at home to raise kids, they're practically given hero status. And if they're working f/t, then they're doing what they're supposed to do, and isn't that respectable? Even when I was working f/t, the expectation was still that I'd be the primary caregiver - the one to drop off, pick up, and be there for the emergencies. That came not so much from my spouse as from his employers - and then it wasn't even a policy, just an expectation based on their live experience (wives at home to care for all of that stuff).

I think all of this comes down to our twisted cultural ideas about work and family. It goes beyond women and women's rights - it's really about a culture that doesn't recognize that family life is important, that raising children ought to occupy a primary place in the lives of those with children, and that both mothers and fathers need balance in their lives.

[NashVegas]

47. To Answer Your Question

A poll like that gets put up because it's a media outlet's job to know its community's opinions and outlooks.

I think the response is pretty hopeful, actually. You may not like the verbage the paper used, but it's wording that their editors have probably seen often in their own message boards, if they have them.

As for the 16.3% - of course it's resentment! Resentment and ignorance. In poor families, mothers don't feel they have a choice about whether or not to work. It's easy to cast stones at "lazy" SAHMs; they don't know what they don't know.

[tjwash]

48. Heh...you guys are in the minor leagues of push polling horse shit in your papers.

They had one this one other day in the local San Diego rag:

Is Barack Obama getting getting too much media coverage?

1) Yes...the liberal media is definately pushing Obama far too much. (83 percent)
2) No....but Obama is still getting too much air time compared to McCain (17 percent)

All I could doo was look at that and think :wtf: even for San Diego that's fucked up...

[Berry Cool]

57. OMG, that's bad.

They might as well have published a "Men, when did you stop beating your wife?" poll.

_ Longer than five years ago
- Five to three years ago
- Two to one year ago
- Within the past year
- I have never stopped beating my wife

:rofl:

Some media outlets are just so conservative it's not even funny.

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. Shameful.

[earth mom]

50. Frankly, I don't give a damn what people think about me being a stay at home mom.

I bring in money through ebay and a couple other venues and at the same time I work my ass off to make sure my kid is well raised, happy and secure.

I think the problem with our society is that in most homes there isn't a parent home at all times to take care of the kids. People want to push off the care of their children onto other people-namely the people at their childrens school-and then wonder why the hell their kids turn out so badly or have problems. Sorry, but children need their parents around to be well raised, happy and secure. You just can't phone it in and if you do expect good results.

[CTyankee]

56. Well, I was both. I stayed home with my kids when they were little.

Then, when the youngest was six I went to work because I had to. 7 years later I was a single mom due to divorce. I had the first shift and the second shift, so to speak, even two jobs for awhile just to afford Christmas presents. I took pay in lieu of vacation time. It was incredibly hard and I told my kids that they had to get scholarships if they wanted to go to college. That they did and one wound up at an Ivy League school,the other at a 7 Sister school. They are responsible, stable adults with nice kids of their own. Sorry to deflate your case here, but just because I was a working mother didn't make me a worse mother and I proved it. I have the grown kids to show for it!

[earth mom]

59. I salute all single moms/dads, and my hat is off to you. Good for you for doing a great job!

That being said, I wasn't talking about single parents at all. I was talking about two parent households.

I think that far too many two parent households aren't willing to make the sacrifices needed to raise their kids.

We lived as the working poor for years in order for me to stay home and it's been hard as hell but worth the sacrifice.

[CTyankee]

63. For the first 6 years that I was working, I was still living with my husband.

He would not take care of his responsibilities with regard to me and the kids. It was he who sent me out to get a job because he didn't like the job he had and quit. Then he sat around the house and basically goofed off with stupid little hobbies. So it was either me in my big girl pants or disaster for me and my kids. Guess what I chose. I kept at it for several years. I had a serious health issue resulting in surgery leaving me with one kidney or I would have left sooner. I also didn't want to take my kids out of their school district to move to a less affluent community (I applied for a waiver, which I got, to send them out of district). This is just one story of things that happen in American families. Every family is different, you know...

[LeftyMom]

55. I stayed home with my son for a few years, then worked from home for several more.

Honestly those first few years we really couldn't afford it, but we couldn't afford quality childcare either, and I'd rather have been broke at home with my son than broke at work while he was being raised by somebody else.

I regret a lot of things, but staying home to raise my son for as long as I could was never one of them.

[kimmerspixelated]

58. This is pretty much my experience.

However, I do have issues about not bringing in money,that balance of power thing.. and having realized I will probably not make it as a freelance writer(but still working on that novel), I am looking into other avenues, but I don't think I will ever be happy not being my own boss. Been there, done that- before my daughter was born. Or maybe I just don't play well with others. Either way, I'm glad that things aren't so desperate that I absolutely have to work at the moment. Knock on wood!

SAHM's don't get near enough respect!

[mnhtnbb]

60. I have been a stay at home mom for almost 22 years--and I become an empty-nester

this Friday when my youngest moves into the dorms at UNC-Chapel Hill. (Granted, he'll probably be home
a fair amount since we live a 30 minute walk from his dorm.)

When I was at home with my first child, we lived in Santa Monica. I would take him and our dog
for a walk and all I would see were nannies and au pairs with the kids. NOBODY, and I mean none of
the moms was home with her kids. I left a career in hospital administration at age 35 to stay home with my kids. I figured that I couldn't possibly work 60-70 hours a week (which is what I would have to put in to do the job at the level for which I was ready); spend enough time with children; have any time left over for myself and hubby. I still, to this day, do not know how women who work full time
manage it all. The only thing I can figure is that they never sleep or have any time for themselves.

It was very lonely being a stay at home mom, even after we left the Los Angeles area and moved
to Missouri and then Nebraska. There were more stay at home moms, but they were Republicans!
They were mostly women who did not give up careers--although they gave up jobs--to stay home with kids. Many of them had children who were old enough that if the mom wanted, she could work at least part-time during school hours, but didn't.

It was at that point when Hillary made her famous what should I do, stay home and bake cookies remark
that she turned me against her. It showed an appalling lack of respect for women who believe they
can make a significant difference in their children's lives by staying at home.

Devoting your life to raising kids is not respected or honored in this country. Having the means
to be able to live on one income has to create jealousy among those who don't have the means.
I made the maximum, deductible contribution to my IRA every year, too, because just because
I wasn't taking home a salary didn't mean I wasn't working. I worked harder--and for many years when
the kids were young it was on-call 24/7--than I ever would have had I remained single and working in my chosen field.

I eventually became involved in community theatre (acting), local politics, and began some serious
writing. Rehearsals were at night (hubby was home), volunteer activities related to politics were doing the school day. I continued to handle all our finances, investments, and keep the house going.

Neither of my boys has ever become involved in drugs, alcohol, or gangs. The oldest finished high school, got a job, moved out, and has been on his own for 4 years. He has had ups and downs, with 4 jobs in 4 years, but has managed to remain living on his own. The youngest had terrific grades (despite having a sudden loss of vision at age 8 due to a genetic eye disease)and has earned a scholarship to UNC-Chapel Hill. I am proud of both my boys. I do not regret making the decision
to be a stay at home mom.

I am looking forward to the next chapter in my life and I do not plan to go back to work. I plan
to do a lot of what I want to do for me--whether it's reading, volunteering, writing, or just
plain nothing. Anybody who wants to criticize me for that can just stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

On edit: Hubby is 65 and thinking about retiring, too.

[pitohui]

64. it shouldn't be acceptable for a mentally and physically person to be a parasite

this doesn't change because someone becomes a mother and has kids to set an example for, in fact, it kind of makes it worse

it's different when we're talking of someone in your case who was unable to work for health reasons but being a mom shouldn't really come into it

be that as it may, i have no objection to someone resenting someone else getting a free ride through life, i think it's only human nature when the rest of us either have to work very, very hard or (as in my case) WANT to work but are denied employment for reasons beyond our control (such as age, health, discrimination)

a healthy educated woman choosing to sit on her ass and pointing at the kids as a reason, nope, she is not getting any respect from me while other women seem to be able to raise kids AND set an example by working, for that matter, almost any man we respect is expected to both raise his kids AND set an example by working

what does your daughter learn when she sees that attending college really is just about the M.R.S. degree? children aren't stupid, when you say one thing and do another, the kid figures out what your values really are

as long as person has a brain, they have a right to make judgments about others, i have no problem w. someone judging a person who has made a choice of her own free will to live off someone else's money

you didn't have a choice, you were ill, surely you can see the difference?

we live in a capitalist society, where your value is judged by what you earn and what you can tithe (bribe) to buy standing in the community, you can't seriously expect NOT to work and then be considered equal to those who do by traditional conservative yahoos who don't see any value in anyone or anything beyond a dollar bill

think about it for awhile, from their point of view, the logic is actually pretty straightforward

[The Backlash Cometh]

70. Sounds like you're ... bitter.

I understand you're not directing this to me because my health issues sidelined me, and that was the case for 95% of the time, but I have been healthy in the last few years and didn't get a job for a couple of reasons. Mainly because I know my child well, and giving her a house without parents is a temptation that I didn't think she could pass up with the boy she was dating. Both kids are good kids as long as someone's watching, but there is a way of life with the kids in this community that is just taken for granted. i.e. the high school has the highest STD rates in the county. I'm surprise that this isn't more common knowledge, but the kids find houses without parents in them and the house becomes a den of inequity for experimentation. Every room is open for a variety of elicit behavior.

There is still a good way to be a role model without working a standard job. For example, when I decide to do a project, I do it myself and see it to completion. I couldn't do this for years because of my health problems, but as I got better, my projects got more and more sophisticated. These are not easy tasks, and generally people have complimented me because of the difficulty and intricate work involved.

Unfortunately, I don't think my daughter has learned the most important lesson that I wanted to instill in her. And that's that it's okay to stand alone if you believe in something that everyone else doesn't believe in. She doesn't support me as an aspiring writer and thinks I'm nuts because my beliefs are different than everybody else's. This is a very conservative town, and though she has learned to be herself within the confines of that kind of environment, she still thinks I'm way out there. I guess she feels she has the impetuousness of youth to explain her rash behavior. The good news is that she's going to a college that will hopefully teach her what I could not.

And, one last thing. My daughter did early on mention that she was going to go to college to find a doctor to marry, and I told her that was a foolhardy plan. Her response was, why not, you found a husband and you're fine. And in the most exaggerated way I said, "Haven't you been paying attention? Do I LOOK happy?"

And her face got all worried and said, "No, no you don't." So, don't assume that you know exactly what the result will be, should a woman decide to stay at home. Most girls start out wanting to be anything but what their mothers turned out to be.

[ismnotwasm]

69. It's bullshit

If you're a stay at home mom, it's your business and yours alone. In fact, good for you. You have every right to be very proud of what you're doing.


That poll is disgusting.

For the record, my husband stays at home and I work. He has Multiple Sclerosis and lost his ability, piece by tiny piece to work. He fought it every step of the way. It broke his heart and nearly broke his spirit. The last ten years have been that way.

Since he has "invisible" symptoms--He looks OK on the outside-- I could see some one with the nerve to lay judgment like that on him without walking in his shoes. Not in front of me they won't 'cause they will defiantly have a new way to shit when I'm through. Not that he can't take care of himself.

I'm a proud feminist and I completely support your choice to stay at home with your children, although you don't need my approval or anyone's else's.

Polls like that, quite simply, are anti-woman. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Fuck 'em.

[The Backlash Cometh]

71. Thank you. I really appreciate your post.

You sound like a very strong woman, inside and out.

[femrap]

74. No matter what a woman does,

she will be judged as WRONG!

[Triana]

76. Yep. That is the truth. Damned if she does. Damned if she doesn't. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

80. You know, as long as I'm hearing that this experience is common to everyone,

I'm getting some cathartic value out of all of this.

[knitter4democracy]

77. "You don't get a say. You don't pay taxes."

That one courtesy of my stepbrother when we were at a family get-together and arguing over the fair wage vote in the town Hubby and I lived in. Yeah, that one shocked me, too, especially considering his mom had been a stay-at-home mom while we were growing up and was practically raising his kids.

I've been a SAHM for 8 years now, and I still miss teaching. It's worse in the fall, but I miss it all year long and have missed it badly lately. I'm taking grad-level classes in my field for fun and to see if I want to get my master's, which I'm seriously considering. It would fit into our family's schedule best.

The reality is, all moms are SOL when it comes to getting respect. Working moms are looked down on because they're leaving their kids alone or because they aren't the room moms or whatever. SAHMs are looked down on because apparently we're leeches who drain away our husbands' paychecks. No matter what we do, we're wrong, and it's tiring.

For those who think I'm a leech, consider all work I do to keep my husband, an internal medicine physician, focussed on his patients. When he lost his last job, I was the one who found this one, went to the interview and knew his numbers well enough to sell them on his potential, and took care of all the e-mails and faxes and phone calls. I'm his home secretary, so I field calls from the hospitals, nursing homes, and patients. I make sure that he can come home as early as 5:30 or as last as 2:30 in the morning without having to worry about childcare or the house. I've also had health problems, similar to the OP, that have kept me from following some of my dreams, but that doesn't mean that I'm some leech making him pay for me. I make it so he can make the pay he does and not have to spend it all on support staff.

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. We all need a good public relation specialist.

Part of the problem, I think, is that there isn't a whole lot of support for women, by women. One of my husband's co-workers, (this was years ago), who I thought I had a good relationship with, looked at me with resentment once and said, "all the things you do for him at home, I have to do myself for my family after working all day. How do I compete against that?" She didn't realize that I was very sick at the time and that my hubby had to wear two hats for many years.

[knitter4democracy]

84. Divided we fall, that's for sure.

There's no reason to fight our fellow women. We're not the ones who created this mess.

[emmadoggy]

78. Ugh. Assholes.

I'm a SAHM too. And while I believe I am actually a pretty crappy one (especially after the evening I had here tonight - ack!), I still believe that it is worthwhile. I have had two incidences where I felt outright condescension from people - both men.

One was about a year and a half ago. My neighbor had called and asked me if I would be interested in some temporary work at her office (accounting office). She was very casual about it, said they needed help getting old files input into their computer system. She made it sound as though, if I wanted it, it was mine and that I could probably even determine how many hours and what days I wanted to work. At the very end of the converstation she said I would just need to come in and meet her boss. No big deal.
After I arrived, thinking he would just meet me and then explain what the job would entail and discuss the particulars, I got the distinct impression that it was actually an interview. However, it was the most uncomfortable and awkward interview I have ever had. The guy would just sit there for long pauses and not say anything and kept waiting for me to talk. It was very strange. Anyway, I was trying to just wrap it up and extricate myself when he interjected with the comment that, "Well, at least it would give you something to DO." I said that being a SAHM kept me plenty busy. Needless to say, I declined the work.

The other incident has been with our financial advisor. This is the advisor through my husband's job. I also have an account with this company, so I go in and meet with him at the same time my husband does each year when he comes for annual employee account reviews. Anyway, each year he makes a point to ask me if I'm still not doing anything. A couple years ago, when my kids had just started preschool, he asked if I was planning to go back to work once my kids started kindergarten. I said I wasn't sure, maybe, if I could find something part-time that I could do during school hours. I can't remember what he said first, something to the effect of needing something to do at that point and that "there's only so much housework you can do!" As if that's all SAHM's do. That ticked me off and I was even more mad at myself for not setting him straight.

As it is now, I do some work as a substitute teacher's aid in the school, which helps me bring in a smidgen of money and the hours always coincide with my kids' school hours - no school, no worrying about having to work - sick kid, I can say "no" if I get called - snow days, no problem. If a full-time teacher's associate position comes available, I will have to consider going for it, though if I had my druthers, I would just be a SAHM permanantly. But that job is the most mom-friendly job I can think of, so if I had to it wouldn't be bad.

There have been occasional tensions over the issue with a couple of my siblings as well, though for different reasons. Nothing serious, but some tension - mostly with my Repub brother who is a single father (has joint custody of his daughter).

Anyway, I hear ya. It is a damn hard job and there are still many people who place little value or worth on it.


:hug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

83. I think that first guy...

...was hoping he could get you on the cheap. You did right to walk away.

You know why Repubs may not like the fact that we stay at home? Well, it's because we have time to take a good look at the community and see how it's being run. And all the little indiscretions that other people don't pick up on, or can't do anything about it because they're working long hours, well, we see it. Because, you would think that a SAHM would be valued for their neighborhood watch potential, but I have reached the conclusion that it's that particular ability, that scares a lot of people.

[hunter]

89. We are a nation of sado-masochistic Puritanical misogynist morons.

If we had any sense we'd mandate a twenty hour work week with a vastly increased minimum wage that would be enough to provide a healthy and comfortable life for all of our children.

Instead we are slaves to consumerism, and our society destroys the families and personal relationships of those who do not meet the artificial and oppressive standards of "economic productivity" set by the wealthier classes, most of whom achieved their own wealth and economic privilege simply by being born into wealthier families.

The productivity of our society far exceeds that required to support stay-at-home and single parents. It's a measure of our overall failure as a society that we don't.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Playing on your last line...

...what does that say when two people have decided to live within their means, cutting out all the superfluous materialistic crap that comes with keeping up with the Jones', and the people around them are unsettled by that decision?

[hunter]

101. I've always been the stay at home parent.

My wife's profession pays substantially more than mine. As a stay at home dad I've always unsettled people. But from the time I was a little kid I've always been an outsider, so I don't much worry if people are unsettled or not.

Our society has confused the pursuit of happiness with the pursuit of material goods which is very bad for the earth's environment, and at the same time places a crushing burden on lower income workers and their families.

I often think about how we might dismantle our current demonstrably unfair economic system to achieve a sophisticated technological society in which profits at the expense of the earth's environment or by the oppression of workers becomes impossible.

Unfortunately in our current political system whenever our economy falters it's the people who are barely hanging on who are the first to suffer. We need to turn that around somehow so that the people who benefit most from the economy they direct are the very first to suffer the consequences of the economic disasters they cause.

In exchange for the limited liability of large corporations, we the people ought to get something a little more substantial than some vague promise of general good posited by pseudo-scientific economic theories. We ought to be able to quickly revoke the charters of large corporations when they run amok, and redistribute their assets in a way that benefits all of us rather than a few insiders -- often the same insiders who led the corporation wrong in the first place.

We can't grow the economy any more by exploiting natural resources. If we continue down that path nature will swat us down like she does any exponentially growing species. We'll die off like a plague of insects; we're not so clever that we can change those rules. But perhaps we are clever enough to live within in our means and recognize when the damage we do to the earth is damaging our own well being. Perhaps we will be able to limit our numbers by ourselves while we replace non-sustainable technologies with sustainable technologies, while we protect and extend our protection to natural environments and species that are in danger of extinction.

[ejpoeta]

90. I have been a SAHM for several years now.

I worked for a year after my daughter was born. Drove an hour to work, dropping her off at the daycare on the way. It was rough and tiring. I felt I had two full time jobs! And when I felt my boyfriend (now husband) was stable, I decided I wasn't making enough money to make it worth it. Not to mention the fact that the sitter was smoking around my daughter and I was taking her to the doctor every week with bronchial problems. So I became a SAHM.

You don't even realize what you are getting yourself into when you make a decision like that. I was college educated and one might think that from the outside looking in being a stay at home mom is easy. But it's not! LOL! Isolation, 24/7 on call status can get to a person. And I get so mad at how people look at what I do. Fill out a survey. Do you notice the employment list? Apparently, a Stay at home mom isn't a job. I am 'unemployed'.

Women sure have a rough gig. I mean, when I was working, I felt guilty missing all my daughter's firsts. I felt guilty that I wasn't there. And I felt someone else was raising my child. But as a stay at home mom I feel as though I am not contributing to the family. I feel that I am losing myself completely. And I can't help but feel as though I am looked down on by others.

Mind you, I do not regret the choice I made. I am glad that I had that choice to make. There were several reasons for my decision, but I wanted to be there for my kids. I was right there to see my younger daughter's firsts. I was able to read to my older daughter and see the fruits of that investment every day when Emily's eyes light up. And since I am home, I watch my sister's kids for her.

[The Backlash Cometh]

94. Wonderfully encapsulated

and welcome to DU. I know that the sacrifices I made putting up with all the bullshitters out there was worth it when I look at the end product.

[AspenRose]

95. I don't regret staying home with my kids

I chose to have them, so I see it as my responsibility to raise them to be caring, thinking and productive members of society.

Some advice I received from a friend who was a SAHM once was to make sure my kids saw me as a well-rounded person, and not just as a "mom," so that they could see that I was important in the lives of others and that I did things outside of the home that were fulfilling (and made me happy). In that modeling they'd hopefully learn to see women in a role besides "mommy."

Women can't win for losing - we'll be criticized no matter what we choose to do, so I think it's important to follow your heart and do what makes you happy.

[The Backlash Cometh]

99. Good advice.

[LibertyLover]

98. To be honest, for me it's a bit of both jealousy and resentment

Not that I would ever say anything, because it's your, or whomever's decision what to do and how to run their lives. I work as the sole income provider for our family. One day about 7 years ago my husband decided that he had had enough of working, didn't like his boss and wanted to see if he could hack staying at home if and when our adoption was finalized, so he quit his job. We had decided that when our daughter came home that he would stay home with her until she went to school and then he would go back to work, but he decided to try it early, way early. There was nothing I could do, so I grinned and bore it. Now, our daughter is entering the 1st grade. My husband has seen all of her milestones, phoning me at the office to say that she had just done this or that, oblivious to how it hurt me. I would love to been able to have stayed home with her, at least for a year or so. My husband occasionally makes noises about finding a job, looks a little on line and comes back with "oh, I can't find anything that will work with your schedule because I never know when you are getting home". He is also growing resentful that I can't buy him the things he wants, like a motor scooter, a small trailer or more vacations in Europe. Hell, he'd never been to Europe until we married. But those trips were back in the days when we were both working and had 2 incomes. I look at some friends of mine, both of whom are or were stay at home moms. The one became a stay at home wife long before she had her son. Now, she does work part time as a therapist, but can be home as and when needed or available to take long trips when she and her husband feel like it. The other teaches on-line as her children are both grown and married, but is talking about cutting back now that the grandchildren are arriving and they just bought a house on St. Thomas. When I talk to them, all I hear is about how they are meeting friends for lunch, going shopping, going someplace for the weekend, none of which I can do. When I'm asked how I'm doing, I give some vague, feel good answer because I know they don't understand how much it hurts not to have heard my daughter's first word or seen her first interaction with a neighbor's kitten because I was at work. I understand why women make a choice to stay at home and I wish that I could be one of them, at least for a short time while my daughter is still young enough to care.

In terms of the poll, well, I'm amazed at the things people consider their business. Just look at all the people saying that they want Elizabeth Edwards to punish her husband for his affair and excoriating her because she forgave him. Good heavens, the Edwards' marriage and her decisions regarding it are none of my business - I have enough problems in my own marriage without worrying about hers.

[The Backlash Cometh]

100. Well, I see from your post that a woman can't seem to win, even

when they've actualized the feminist dream. I guess the key is to rejoice in the positives of the decision you made, and to tell everyone else to butt out of your life, because you're right in what you said. It's amazing the things that people consider their business.

[Hidden Stillness]

102. Several Responses to Things on This Thread

This is such a great thread, with so many good points, that I will just answer many of them all on this one reply. Starting with the OP, first, I agree that many of the smartest--and most liberal/feminist--women I have known, starting with my late, beloved Mom, were stay-at-home Moms, (called "housewives" then, and that label always offended my Mom), and it is largely for the commonsense reason that women are generally smart/readers, and have time to pursue things and follow issues, so you have an educated person. I also agree that the most obnoxious, bigoted, stupid group is the "business male." Have you ever heard a group of them having a "conversation" with each other? Horrible. When my Mom and I used to go out to lunch, which I still miss doing, you would overhear a group of them from the same office, etc., and it was all one-upping, dumbass attempts at "humor," put-downs of "inferiors," (all the groups I like), blather about "women," and what they "are," etc. Complete assholes--and a whole lot of endless conversation, interminable, about making money. Horrible. My Mom and I, meanwhile, would zip from politics to family to great movies to ideas, on and on, and have great conversations. I know who the smart people are, and who are not. I agree with others, though, when they don't understand how that should turn you against NOW. These people are your friends, and at the risk of being offensive, don't be surprised if the male opinion at work, against the woman boss, is totally fabricated and a lie; it wouldn't be the first, or last, time. As to the "poll," any time it starts with "more and more people" are doing something, with no quantified number, you know it is shit--"Results not scientific"; no fucking kidding.

For the people on the thread who mentioned how males who do anything at all are praised and "thanked" endlessly, while women are attacked if they don't get everything right, this reminds me of two things. First, Phil Donahue, then a single parent, referred to this years ago: bringing the kids to be enrolled in school then, if Donahue got their birthdates wrong, etc., the women at school would still be impressed with what a "great father" Donahue was, for doing anything, where women were criticized if they didn't know all the information, because THEY were "supposed to," it is "their job." Second, it is not just married people and kids that this happens to: when my Mom was very sick, at the end, and I was taking care of her, she was in the hospital for a few months, I had been running around taking care of everything, doing laundry, paying bills, getting to appointments, talking to medical social workers (the best), visiting every day, planning to take care of her when she got out, etc., and a male family member was up visiting from Florida for several days. We were all in the hospital room when suddenly a woman nurse comes up to me and says, "Don't you think it's just wonderful that he's doing all the work of taking care of his mother?" and how "rare it is" for a male to do that. I was flabbergasted and angry, after all the months and months of unrelieved stress I had been going through, doing everything alone, with no help from anyone. Did she make that up herself, another typical bigot, or was she given that impression by another male you thought you knew, stealing the credit away from you, and never correcting the false impression. I could hardly contain the shocked anger, and I think I said something about how I was actually the one doing everything, that this other person was just up here from Florida and does not even live here, and then of course, that made me sound like a "bitter vindictive woman," as opposed to the "wonderful, nice saintly male." All the time. Just to be clear, I wanted to take care of my Mom, and was glad to, but having the thing taken away from me and suddenly given to a male who had nothing to do with it, was shocking and disgusting; yet typical.

Also, to seabeyond and her feeling of isolation--I understand how it can get, having had periods of life like that, too. I think you can do a few things that help; one, as mentioned on the thread, even in Democratic areas that you consider "good" (I live in Michigan), there are still stupid people you can't identify with; also maybe you can think of the great people who have come from Texas--Molly Ivins, Ann Richards, Lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson, Stevie Ray Vaughan, etc.--and get a better sense of the place; also, if you can meet people on a friendly plane other than politics, so that you have some nice, non-confrontational contact with them, sometimes that actually relieves a lot of the general feeling; also, sometimes, just going out of the house at all, with not even having any contact with people but just being outside and noticing things around the neighborhood, can make you feel better. I have sympathy for anyone having to be stuck in a Republican area.

[susanna]

103. I saw a story on CNN about this...

Their story profiled SAH wives - not moms. Basically they discussed women who had the luxury of staying home and running the house but had no kids, so it's slightly different than what you are talking about I think. Anyway, the responses on the comment board were utterly scathing about women "sitting around sucking off their husband's work," "parasites," etc. A lot of the most vitriolic posts came from other women! I was astounded at how judgmental these people were, not knowing what decisions were made or why the women stayed at home. It was eye-opening, to be sure. I agree with you - it's really none of their business. We all make decisions based on our own circumstances.

In interest of disclosure, I am currently an unintentional SAHW, as I was just laid off from a job after 20 years. My former company is abouthisclose to bankrupt and did one last wrenching downsizing hoping to stay afloat. I was extra cargo, so here I am. It was demoralizing, but DH and I made some sound financial decisions (and didn't have any health issues - big one, that) that are offering me the opportunity to look for something new and to make a mid-career switch if I choose. Unfortunately, unemployment is at an all-time high here so I may end up at home a lot longer, and if I do, folks who want to b*tch about it can take a long walk off a short pier. :-)

on edit: clarity