It was Georgia that struck first in South Ossetia, not Russia!

[IndianaGreen]

While Americans were engaged in our insular issues (tire gages, Edwards' affair, etc.) there have been many warnings by Russia on the situation faced by ethnic Russians in South Ossetia. The BBC in particular has been on top of this issue for several weeks.

Why am I not surprised that American political class is using selective memory when discussing this issue? Why did the US oppose a cease-fire resolution introduced by Russia two days ago in the UN Security Council?

There are people in this country who would love to have a second Cold War in order to keep the arms merchants and the security apparatus going full speed ahead as we disengage from Iraq, and as Osama bin Laden fades from memory.

And let's not forget how the Clinton Administration and the Bush regime have used NATO as an agent of provocation and aggression since the end of the Cold War.

Day-by-day: South Ossetia crisis

THURSDAY 7 AUGUST

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".

The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. K&R The resurrection of the Russian bogeyman continues.

Always handy to have a spare on tap in case Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, China, and the rest fizzle.

[HEyHEY]

2. Good luck with that....

Many here don't care and would rather just make comments out of their asses about the big bad russians.

Even though Georgia DID strike first, I think Russia's response was a bit over the top and the amount of dead is just insane (If the numbers are correct)

[seemslikeadream]

4. Is it over YET?

[HEyHEY]

6. Will be soon

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/10/georgia.html

[seemslikeadream]

8. Let me when the killing stops

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3432838










..

[seemslikeadream]

23. maybe yes maybe no

Russia claims to sink Georgian ship in Black Sea!
Posted by thewiseguy on Sun Aug-10-08 01:55 PM

TBILISI, Georgia - Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.

If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.

---------------------

There are also unconfirmed reports that Russian tanks are advancing towards the town of Gori which is located outside the breakaway province.

I am not sure what Russia is up to now. :think:

[AuntPatsy]

61. Perhaps they are well aware of by now that the Us is somehow involved

in this conflict and in fact are the instigators and are ensuring that the US becomes aware that they will not back down especialy if the US is involved?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

63. We haven't heard a whisper about the Bush/Cheney involvement/funding.

Of course, we won't,...until those effin' neocons do whatever it takes to instigate their freakin' final conflict over resources.

No one is talking about Turkey or oil pipes.

Georgia border Turkey (where US forces are launching its war in Iraq) which borders Iraq. Pipelines run through Turkey and Georgia.

This is a RESOURCE WAR by those who seek to sustain or expand POWER.

If we must get "simple" about what's happening, why not go for the throat of the political power-mongers?
:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

64. sadly the msm will not speak of the real reasons that are becoming glaringly obvious...

[sentelle]

85. this russian naval force is not

A peace keeping force. South Ossetia is a landlocked area. something seems like there is more to this. There has to be, with all the hair-triggers.

[Warpy]

13. I've been saying that for the last 3 days

The good news is that I haven't been flamed for it--yet--meaning that people here just didn't know the whole story behind this and were just responding to the image of a big strong country attacking a small, weak one.

I admit I hadn't heard of South Ossetia until Russia struck back but I did a lot of fast research. Thank goodness for the net, it saves a lot of embarrassment over ill considered words.

It's just very hard to be on the side of the Russians when all the stories coming out are the typical (although accurate) propaganda fare of wrecked apartment houses and bloodied children and little old ladies.

Perhaps the Georgian government should have considered that before they decided that ancient Georgian territory that no longer had a majority Georgian population was still somehow theirs.

[seemslikeadream]

21. Georgian territory that no longer had a majority Georgina population was still somehow theirs.

We have no standing lecturing on that issue

[Warpy]

26. We can't lecture anyone on anything any more

without provoking laughter.

Thanks a lot, you stupid bastards, may you all go directly from the White House to hell.

[seemslikeadream]

30. Yep no more moral authority here

[Eurobabe]

34. I was watching American TV and heard the Russians

attacked first, but then I listened to German TV and they said the Georgians started it. Who should I believe? :sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

3. have used NATO as an agent of provocation and aggression

[mike_c]

5. recommended....

:thumbsup:

[BurtWorm]

7. Thank you!

:toast:

Excellent points well made.

[On the Road]

9. It Shows One Reason Offering NATO Membership

to Georgia is a bad idea.

[tabasco]

10. LOL. All the familiar trolls attacking Russia in the other threads.

This site has become a joke allowing these asswipes to infest the place for so long.

[HEyHEY]

11. Yup

I dealt with a shitload of em yesterday.

[seemslikeadream]

14. That does not change the facts

THIS IS HAPPENING DOES IT MATTER WHO'S FAULT IT IS TO THEM WHEN THEY ARE DEAD?

[HEyHEY]

17. Yes, I know people are dying

But there's not much you can say to that. This conflict will be stopped through talking about the issue.

[seemslikeadream]

19. Silly me I was just thinking of them

I'll leave you to discuss the so called who's at fault

[HEyHEY]

25. What the fuck do you want me to do about it, eh?

What the fuck can I do? Of course I'm thinking of them.

[seemslikeadream]

27. It seems you are very interested in who started this and can easily talk

about that, and there is nothing you can do about that either

[HEyHEY]

31. Well, you must admit that you can't really have a conversation about

People dying... yes, it's terrible. There's nothing more you can say.

[JVS]

28. heyhey, stop the killing!!!!!!

you need to go over there Rambo-style

[HEyHEY]

32. maybe if I kill enough people - the killing will stop!

[JVS]

20. Does nobody die when the Georgian government launches attacks?

Are the Ossetians fleeing to Russian-held North Ossetia for no reason?

[seemslikeadream]

22. Of course

Talk to our government about that, you know pipelines and all

[IndianaGreen]

24. When it comes to lecturing about of wars of aggression, the US and Israel have no leg to stand on

Israel's Occupation of Palestine is 24/7 terrorism.

America's invasion of Iraq has cost over a million dead civilians, and over 2 million displaced individuals.

NATO should have been disbanded when the Warsaw Pact was disbanded. America continues to use of NATO to provoke Russia and to attack other countries. Those were NATO planes that bombed Belgrade, the TV stations, and the electric power plant in the middle of winter!

People that Israel and America murder are never counted!

[Strelnikov_]

12. Trolls? Here? Never!!!!!!!!!!

Disproportionate and appeasement are apparently the Reich Wing words of the day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3432329#3432498

If Putin is Hitler, what are Bush and the Republicans?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3432122&mesg_id=3432549

[fascisthunter]

87. Thank You for Saying it Out in the Open

WTF is going on around here?

[NashVegas]

93. Infestation

This stopped being a place to get the type of news and opinions you'd see in alternative media sometime ago.

[Strelnikov_]

15. I Agree

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3769684&mesg_id=3769684

[seemslikeadream]

16. The U.S. has been there since day one and so have a few other countries

They are just pawns in a game, a most deadly game played by much bigger players



8 mins ago: Demonstrators wave Georgian flags while protesting against what they call a Russian intervention in the breakaway Georgian enclave South Ossetia in Tbilisi, Sunday, Aug. 10, 2008. Georgia called a cease-fire Sunday and said it was pulling its embattled troops out of the disputed province of South Ossetia, submitting to Russia's far superior firepower, but Moscow disputed the pullout claim.

[JVS]

18. K&R

[bluesmail]

29. That Georgia is an ally of ours speaks volumes.

[depakid]

33. More telling is that they've withdrawn their troops from Bush's war in Iraq

because they're now needed on the home front.

[Karenina]

35. The Amis are flying them out as I type!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3770749

:shrug:

[bluesmail]

37. Yes, it's a sad day when our fearless leader

loses his coalition ally's. :hi: :sarcasm:

[MellowDem]

36. And it was Russia that first struck out against Georgia...

and under what pretense? South Ossetia is not part of Russia.

And NATO as an agent of provocation? Yeah, if you are Russia. Who the fuck cares? Russia is run by a dictator named Putin that is trying to take back former Soviet territories. Many of the former territories have joined NATO because they want to have protection from the imperialist shit hole that is Russia. I think it's fucking sad that Russia is able to keep sovereign nations from making certain decisions through brute intimidation and force in this day and age.

I am glad the US is occupied elsewhere. I'm hoping that Russia's aggression and China's growth will lead European countries to take more responsibility for regional security and allow us to draw down the size of our military. It's not America's job to spend an insane amount of our GDP on the military to keep "stability" throughout the world, to the benefit of asshole countries everywhere. Let Russia attack other nations, let the Darfur genocide continue, let the whole fucking world go to hell, as long as it's outside the US, that's how Europeans think, and this selfish provincial attitude only is effective as long as the US plays the role of world police.

[IndianaGreen]

38. Stop watching Faux! It was Georgia that struck first, as peace talks were being held

And don't mention dictators, America has more than her share of tyrants on our payroll.

BTW, does it bother you at all that a majority of the people living in South Ossetia are Russians, not Georgians.

NATO belongs in the toilet of history!

[MellowDem]

40. Oh, I'm watching Faux alright...

Georgia struck South Ossetia, not Russia, that's a distinction you may want to take note of...

And it does not bother me the least that the majority of people living there are Russians. Do you think that territory should be along lines of who as the majority of a certain ethnicity? There are many countries that contain regions with majority minorities. That seems like a rather fascist way to determine borders. It depends on other circumstances I think, and it's not completely true that South Ossetia is acting all on its own, it's hard to tell how much Russian influence has to do with it. I'm sure there are parts of Russia that have majorities of other ethnicities, I guess Russia better give those up, or just move a bunch of Russians in.

Does it make you uncomfortable that I call Putin a dictator? He's a dictator, nothing but a lousy dictator. Dictator dictator dictator dictator dictator! By the way, I can't stand it when someone tells me not to call someone a dictator because of what America is doing. Where is the logic in that? Do you like Putin? Honestly, why try to divert attention from the subject of your OP?

And I'd much rather have NATO around than Russia's military. NATO is a much better organization in my opinion, though not perfect by any means. I personally don't think Georgia should be admitted to NATO because it's not a real democracy yet, it still has a lot of things to fix. Still, the fact that Russia threatens neighboring countries for even considering offers that is in their right to consider is downright scary.

[NutmegYankee]

45. The people in South Ossetia are, get this, Ossetian.

They are not Russian.



This is absolutely hypocritical of the Russians after Chechnya!

[eridani]

52. The ones in the south actually are Russian

Chechnya wanted no part of Russia., but Russians in South Ossetia are very happy that someone is preventing them from being ethnically cleansed.

[theboss]

67. Georgia struck first...against either an independent state or part of Georgia

It didn't strike Russia.

[fascisthunter]

88. BULLSHIT... that's a lie

[MillieJo]

92. The BBC said it was because Georgia invaded

South Ossetia and the British Government has some big issues with Russia at the moment.

And just what is Europe supposed to do, the British troops are overstretched in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of other European counties are there also.

[Captain Hilts]

39. And NO ONE's mentioned that Gori is Stalin's birthplace. I wonder if Russian jets bombed the site?

[malaise]

41. Good post

I've been following on BBC, German TV and Russia Today

[no limit]

42. Considering South Ossetia belongs to Georgia how does this excuse what russia did?

What right did Russia have here? Or is your argument that Russia should now be the new world police?

[Karenina]

62. Read this for some perspective:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9788

[Swamp Rat]

70. danke

:hi:

[Karenina]

71. Naaa, Duuuu!!!

Bitte! Good stuff, eh? :loveya::hi:

[Swamp Rat]

72. Oh yes!

Thanks a lot. :hug:

We are in dangerous territory now... :hide:

[AuntPatsy]

75. Can you form your own thread for that link, I honestly feel it is needed..

[no limit]

80. You need to explain instead of just posting the link

how in the world does that address what I said? All it tries to do is excuse why Russia did what they did by saying the Georgian's are bad. I made the point that South Ossetia belongs to Georgia. This isn't my opinion, this is the opinion of every internation body out there, including Nato. So what right does Russia have to intervene here? Is your argument that they are the new world police?

So again, I don't need any background, I'm not an idiot. I need you to address my point.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

65. Interesting point. Do democracies wage war over territories?

btw Ossetia claimed independence like, 15 years or so ago. Is "independence" bad? Is freedom to claim independence from any governing body,...bad?

Did South Ossetia threaten Georgia's sovereignty or,...do the facts show it was the other way around?

If freedom and independence are the trademarks of a democracy, we CLEARLY need to have a discussion about what those words mean. To date, based on the facts, is appears "freedom" and "independence" have meaning ONLY AMONG THE ELITE rather than among the people.

This is a political power-mongering conflict incited by those whose interests lie with perpetuating ANTI-DEMOCRATIC reigns on power. If you seek to name THOSE people, let's do the research. If you honestly want to talk about the fundamental role of ANY government, especially a democratic one, let's talk about that, too. I believe we'll both agree that a government should NEVER be so powerful that "the people" can be oppressed by it, no matter WHAT you "call" that government: democratic, dictatorship, fascist, theocratic, whatever.

[theboss]

68. If the issue was Georgia vs. South Ossetia, I would side with South Ossetia

That issue, however, is now Georgia versus Russia.

Under NO circumstances, do I want Russia expanding its territory, particularly into old Soviet republics.

And whether we lost the moral high ground or not is irrelevant. We lost the high ground with Kosovo.

The issue is, "What is our position on Russian expansion."

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

76. I'm sure,...the Russians are figuring on same relative position re US expansion,...

,...which makes more sense, at this time.

Neither are correct because taking such a position ends in a lose/lose situation.

[no limit]

81. S. Ossetia's independence has been a matter of debate for a long time

and as far as that debate stands it is still part of Georgia. This is according to every international body out there, such as NATO.

My point is that Russia had absolutely no authority to go in there. By invading S. Ossetia they actually invaded Georgia. A fact the OP and many here seem to forget.

[IndianaGreen]

82. NATO? The same blood-thirsty outfit that bombed the piss out of Belgrade?

Remember that the US supported the breakup of Yugoslavia, both Clinton and Bush. How can you now deny to the Ossetians the support you so freely gave to the Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars?

Why do Ossetians want to break away?

The Ossetians are a distinct ethnic group originally from the Russian plains just south of the Don river. In the 13th Century, they were pushed southwards by Mongol invasions into the Caucasus mountains, settling along the border with Georgia.

South Ossetians want to join up with their ethnic brethren in North Ossetia, which is an autonomous republic within the Russian Federation.

Ethnic Georgians are a minority in South Ossetia, accounting for less than one-third of the population.

But Georgia rejects even the name South Ossetia, preferring to call it by the ancient name of Samachablo, or Tskhinvali, after its main city.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm

[no limit]

84. For fucks sake. NATO doesn't work for you? how about the UN?

The UN doesn't work for you? How about the EU? That doesn't work, then maybe the fact that every country on this planet recognizes them as part of Georgia will?

Seriously, what is your reasoning behind this bullshit? You want to have a debate about the status of s. ossetia? Fine, feel free to. It doesn't excuse the fact that by going in there Russia invaded Georgia, not S. Ossetia (which doesnt exist) under internation law.

[FarLeftRage]

43. Fuck russia...

They murdered Trotsky.

They will never be forgiven for that.

[NutmegYankee]

44. South Ossetia is not part of Russia or Ethnically Russian.

Georgia did not attack Russia, it attacked a breakaway province that is still considered internationally to be part of it's nation. Not unlike the North stomping down the traitors in the south in the civil war...

Get the facts straight!

[tkmorris]

49. South Ossetia is ethnically Russian

You're wrong.

[knitter4democracy]

55. And why is that?

Why is Chechnya so full of ethnic Russians? It was Stalin's doing--he came up with moving Russians to difficult areas to help keep them under control. So, now we're going to use that to say that all those areas still belong to Russia?

[rockymountaindem]

73. You got a link for that

Ossetians are not Russians. They are a distinct ethnic group.

[NutmegYankee]

74. I gave up trying to reason with these people.

They just think, hey, if Bush supports them, they must be wrong. Damn, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

[rockymountaindem]

77. I've come to the same conclusion

I mean, the fact that Russia handed out Russian passports to non-Russians living outside their recognized borders years ago might suggest that the Russians were preparing to use the "protecting our citizens" excuse for just this kind of situation. Nah... suddenly a distinct ethnic group with a language related to Farsi = Russians who Putin has every right to protect. By bombing Tiblisi. Yes. :eyes:

[Ravachol]

57. South Ossetia held a referendum back in 2006...

and ended with a virtual unanimity, like 99% of the population voted in favor of independence with 95% of the people reporting to polls. They didn't want to have anything to do with Georgia, since they're not Georgians.

During the USSR, they were an autonomous oblast. After the fall, they were told they were forcefully annexed to the new Republic of Georgia. Pleasing? Doubt it. Since then, they've been a de facto independent republic, holding presidential elections and what not. Protected by and allied to Russia.

[High Plains]

60. Not unlike the Serbvs stomping down on Kosovo, eh?

There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around.

[panAmerican]

66. Sounds like Georgia wanted independence from Russia, and now S. Ossetia wants out of Georgia.

There's no clear-cut good-guy bad-guy here.

[knitter4democracy]

46. That's seriously debatable.

Why did Russia even have troops there in the first place? It's been a part of Georgia since Soviet times. The only reason that the majority of the populace is ethnically Russian is because of the Soviet program to ship ethnic Russians to difficult-to-control areas (did it in Chechnya, the Baltic States, Siberia, the Ukraine, etc.).

I'm no fan of Saakashvili by any means, but South Ossetia is part of Georgia and has been for many, many years. With the previous Georgian civil war, Saakashvili didn't have the means to keep that area firmly under his control. The Russians moved troops there to help control the oil pipeline and keep Saakashvili out of his own territory, and when he finally broke and sent troops in, Russia's saying he fired first.

In other words, it's been a powder keg for years, and it's an even bigger mess now. The IOCC is sending in aid to the refugees and trying to help all they can, and people are dying for a damn oil pipeline.

Never forget that many in Russia want all of those breakaway republics back. Never forget that some in power in Russia really do want the Cold War again (indeed, never stopped fighting it, as they have a huge spy network here and never stopped spying on us) and are itching for a fight. The republics are constantly under pressure to follow Moscow's rule, especially those with port or oil.

[MattSh]

47. Got MSM?

Never forget that many in Russia want all of those breakaway republics back. Never forget that some in power in Russia really do want the Cold War again (indeed, never stopped fighting it, as they have a huge spy network here and never stopped spying on us) and are itching for a fight. The republics are constantly under pressure to follow Moscow's rule, especially those with port or oil.

Source for this? Or is this supposed to be common knowledge like the earth is round? Methinks maybe you're listening to and reading too much mainstream media.

Oh, and then there's that "some in power in Russia". Very MSM. Maybe there's "some in power in Georgia" who also want to promote another Cold War between Russia and the USA? Maybe "some in power in Georgia" think that prompting a fight with Russian would increase their chances of being invited into NATO.

Have you ever thought that maybe Russia has vital interests in this part of the world, like keeping a hostile NATO away from it's borders, (like Bill Clinton promised), whereas the USA's vital interest is keeping the SUV culture alive? And oil company profits high?

And has the US ever stopped meddling in Russian affairs since the demise of the USSR? Has the US stopped spying on Moscow? If you think the US intentions in this part of the world have ever been honorable, a good read might be "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein.

Anyway, that's the view from 900 miles from Tbilisi Georgia and 475 miles from Moscow.

[knitter4democracy]

50. I studied in Russia in college. I keep an eye on their news.

I was in Nizhni Novgorod at the university there for a semester--Russian language and cultural studies.

Of course the US hasn't stopped meddling there. I wasn't talking about that, but that's a given. The whole NATO thing was huge when I was there, and I still think we should just disband NATO instead of piss Russia off since we're all supposedly great allies now.

I don't trust Saakashvili further than I could throw him. I've made that clear in my posts. If he's trying to do this to get into NATO, he's just as bad a tyrant as I thought he was. From what we learned in our cultural studies classes with poly sci profs at Nizhnigorodski Universitet, though, always keep an eye on the oil pipelines and ports.

[eridani]

53. Some of the people in the breakaway republics want to be back

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia.russia1
.
Unlike in eastern Europe, for instance, today in breakaway states such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, Russian troops are popular. Vladimir Putin's picture is more widely displayed than that of the South Ossetian president, the former Soviet wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity. The Russians are seen as protectors against a repeat of ethnic cleansing by Georgians.

In 1992, the west backed Eduard Shevardnadze's attempts to reassert Georgia's control over these regions. The then Georgian president's war was a disaster for his nation. It left 300,000 or more refugees "cleansed" by the rebel regions, but for Ossetians and Abkhazians the brutal plundering of the Georgian troops is the most indelible memory.

<snip>

In the Balkans, the west promoted the disintegration of multiethnic Yugoslavia, climaxing with their recognition of Kosovo's independence in February. If a mafia-dominated microstate like Montenegro can get western recognition, why shouldn't flawed, pro-Russian, unrecognised states aspire to independence, too?

Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?

[knitter4democracy]

54. That's true, too.

When I was there in 95, there was a guy walking around with a picture of Stalin in the local parade, and when I asked some friends about it, they said that there were Russians who wished Stalin were back so they could be a strong empire again and able to stand up to US bullying.

I'm just sayin', there are a lot of people who miss being able to afford food easily and have vacations and trust that no one would attack them because of their nation's strength.

Still, this isn't exactly an easy situation (ie South Ossetia and Abkhasia say they want independence, and they get it). Georgia's going to say that Russia's been working the people there to get those republics because of the oil pipeline. Russia's going to say that they have to defend the right of the republics to seceed. And with Russia now bombing Tiblisi, it's looking like they want more than just South Ossetia or Abkhasia but Georgia entirely.

[eridani]

56. Russia certainly isn't above imperial bullying

See Chechnya. I doubt that they would be able to hold all of Georgia. The people who aren't in the breakaway provinces want Russia NOT there as much as the South Ossetians want them there. It isn't about Stalin; it's about practical defense against ethnic cleansing.

[knitter4democracy]

58. People haven't forgotten what Stalin did, though.

Chechnya is a total mess in part because of what Stalin did (though the problems pre-date him as well). Shipping out an entire population to the gulags in three days only for those who returned to find ethnic Russians had been shipped there to live in their homes and take over their land is still something people are upset about.

[endthewar]

48. Russia has been beating the war drum all year long

This situation actually started back in the spring (April or March I think) when Russia violated Georgia's airspace to shoot down their unmanned drone. I think Georgia got the message, which was that eventually Russia would be marching on their roads and shores, so they better get ready. I also don't like how they've been flying their bombers close to our aircraft carriers.

If Russia was smart, it would realize that it had more to gain by developing its economy. They should have already learned about the perils of bankrupting your country with the military since that's how the Soviet Union collapsed.

[blindpig]

51. Paybacks

While this is primarily an issue of Russia looking after Russian nationals there is certainly an international aspect. If Maine(just for example) had seceded from the United States and Russia offered Maine a military alliance would the US not take umbrage and feel threatened? This was done during Russia's moment of weakness, now Russia is regaining it's strength while the US military shows it's weakness. What better to accentuate the foolishness of forming alliance with an competing Empire than this? The Georgians pay the price for America's imperial over-reach.

Georgia had been part of Russia since 1801, and though it's inclusion in the Russian Empire was the result of military conquest could not the same be said of our states? Ask Native Americans....

[Overseas]

59. K&R for more balance. //nt

[Monk06]

69. Nato should be disbanded rather than expanded. It's a creature of the Cold

War and is being used by BushCo as a means
of furthering western influence in the Balkans
outside the US security council where Russia
has veto power.

The fact that the Afghanistan conflict is a
Nato mission and Canada's presence there is
due to it commitment to Nato is bizarre to
say the least.

What does Afghanistan have to do with North
Atlantic security?

[knitter4democracy]

79. I agree. It's time to get rid of it.

No real reason for it to exist anymore other than it's still around and has a decent bureaucracy.

[IndianaGreen]

78. Mikhail Gorbachev: Georgia leaders to blame!

A Path to Peace in the Caucasus

By Mikhail Gorbachev
Tuesday, August 12, 2008; Page A13

Through all these years, Russia has continued to recognize Georgia's territorial integrity. Clearly, the only way to solve the South Ossetian problem on that basis is through peaceful means. Indeed, in a civilized world, there is no other way.

The Georgian leadership flouted this key principle.

What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.

Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

In other words, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili was expecting unconditional support from the West, and the West had given him reason to think he would have it. Now that the Georgian military assault has been routed, both the Georgian government and its supporters should rethink their position.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081101372.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[rockymountaindem]

83. Gorby couldn't possibly be biased

:sarcasm:

The fact remains that the only country that thinks S. Ossetia is not legally part of Georgia is Russia. They're the only ones who believe in the idea that Russia is protecting its own. According to the official stances of the other 200+ states on this planet, Georgian forces were operating on territory they legally control. Anything coming out of Russia should be viewed in this lens.

[IndianaGreen]

86. Two thirds of the people of S. Ossetia want to join Russia

specifically their brethren in North Ossetia.

Here is the BBC:

THURSDAY 7 AUGUST

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".


The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

[rockymountaindem]

89. Be that as it may

it is not Russia's prerogative to intervene on what is legally (according to everybody except Russia) Georgian territory. Nor does it excuse their bombings of Georgian cities far from the conflict zone, particularly when the Russian army has had little trouble imposing itself in Ossetia. What's more, the intervention in Ossetia should not necessarily have triggered any Russian meddling in Abkhazia, where pro-Russian forces have now demanded the Georgians withdraw or be crushed. With the impending intervention in Abkhazia and the bombing of the Georgian capital, how can you see this as anything other than an attempt by the Russians to impose their will on Georgia as a whole, rather than simply an intervention into a region into which their pretext was already specious?

[goforit]

90. Yep.....McCain will win as Prez and we will be in WWIII.

Give Cheney credit for pulling this one off!!!

[Hugabear]

91. Return of the Cold War = big $$$ for BushCo

As tensions rise, as relations between the US and Russia deteriorate, who wins? Follow the money...

You know there's a reason why we've been backing Georgia in this whole South Ossetia situation.

[IndianaGreen]

94. The neocons are emboldened, making Georgia to be the innocent victim

and prepping public opinion for a new Cold War, all in order to grease the skids of the arms merchants.