I DONT LIKE THIS (Re: saddlebag forum)

[NightWatcher]

I start by saying that I believe in the Great Creator/Spirit (wakan tanka) that created the earth to take care of us and us to take care of the earth. I was raised Baptist but have had dogmatic issues......

I dont like hearing bible verses discussed with our candidates for President. It just does not set well with me. The Presidency is a JOB. When I go to a dentist, I check for a diploma from a dental school, not a bible on his desk. If I should have a heart attack, I want a GOOD PROFESSIONAL to crack my chest and will not pick the Dr. just because of the presence or absence of a bible on his desk.

America is BROKEN and we need a PROFESSIONAL to fix what is horribly wrong with our country. We do not need a panderer who will sit for a forum just because it's popular. I really do not like the religious test that is happening right now. If it helps, great, but I dont like having to check with the fundies before he can run for President. I do not like nuzzling the genitals of any special interest group, regardless of their interest.

...just my two cents...

[LiberalHeart]

1. Total agreement here.

[Orrex]

2. Every time a candidate high-fives Jesus...

He or she loses a big chunk of credibility. Either the candidate is pandering to the uncritical religious constituency, in which case it's insincere and hypocritical, or the candidate really believes this stuff, in which case I have no problem with it, as long as policy isn't formed on the basis WWJD.

Don't get me wrong--Jesus sounds like a swell guy and a party animal, but--as you rightly note--the realities of today's world require more stringent qualifications than "can remember some bits from Leviticus."

[malaise]

6. I hate it but he's sure holding his corner

and not pandering.

[Orrex]

13. I'm pleased to hear it! I don't doubt that Obama is a man of faith...

A person's faith, in itself, is largely irrelevant to me, so long as it isn't wildly insane and/or eagerly apocalyptic. To be honest, this is one atheist who would greatly prefer that all mention of the Alpha Primate in the Sky be banished from all political discourse, because it invariably screws up whatever discussion it's part of (if used in any stronger context than "Achooo!"/"God Bless You!").

But if a candidate must believe (and this atheist recognizes the absolute political necessity of it) then I would like assurance from that candidate that God is not going to be the de facto VP. A statement like JFK's would be nice, though unlikely in this artificially charged day and age.


I'm very glad to hear that Obama is standing up for himself without pandering!

[The Hope Mobile]

57. Exactly - no pandering is the way to go!

Wish congress would figure that out!

[roody]

3. Thank you, from an atheist.

[donco6]

4. Couldn't have said it better. n/t

[liberalmuse]

5. I'm an atheist, and I don't like it, but Obama is a believer...

and I respect that. I am uncomfortable that this country has regressed so much that this is even allowed.

[isentropic]

9. Well, that's what he says.

Of course he must. (say it)
:shrug:

[tbyg52]

42. You're right about that

Polls say that there's no way a non-believer (of some sort or another) could be elected president, and probably not even dogcatcher, the Constitution notwithstanding.

[Diane R]

7. I just told my husband the same thing. I'm tired of candidates having to prove they are Christians.

I wish this forum didn't have the stature it has. I wish Obama did not have to prove himself by answering these questions. That being said, he's just hitting it clear out the ballpark.

[malaise]

10. I think Pastor Rick's young lady's are smitten

with the candidate. They probably haven't had such an educated or articulate person speak to them ever:D

[Runcible Spoon]

24. I'd like an atheist/agnostic president for a very simple reason:

it would show ability to think for oneself. I'm not saying that people of faith can't think for themselves, of course. However, professing atheism/agnosticism means that a person thought about the topic long and hard enough to buck the status quo and choose a way of explaining the universe that isn't part of a belief system often forced onto one from birth.

[Arugula Latte]

64. Yep, plus, it shows an ability to reject irrational and magical thought and

Not a bad quality in a president, IMO.

[Zhade]

72. It's crucial! The same mentality that believes in jesus is the same that thought Iraq had WMD.

There was as much evidence for Iraq's alleged WMD as the alleged existence of jesus (i.e., none).

[Arugula Latte]

80. Yes indeed.

I can't quite fathom how otherwise intelligent people just accept that, in the six billion year history of the planet, there was one magical human who came into being because the sky god knocked up his mother, and then then this product of deity-mortal rape died for our "sins" and came back to life and is going to come back to Earth again. Seriously -- what a steaming load, you know? But that's "mainstream" to believe that. Just check your brain at the door, folks...

[hisownpetard]

47. Agree, on all points.

:thumbsup:

[Ninga]

8. He is damned if he does, and damned if he does not. And let's face it, there

are hundreds of thousand of people watching carelfully, and it's free exposure for him and 1 hour.

:shrug:

[Booster]

11. Couldn't agree with you more. Both candidates should have never

agreed to do this. What if other religions besides Christian, or non-believers want to have a forum with these two - and you can bet someone's going to ask.

[annabanana]

12. I am categorically opposed to that forum also..

And it would have been unthinkable a mere 30 years ago.

But that was then and this is now. Perhaps we will again become a secular democracy, but in the meantime, Obama is doing very very well.

[katandmoon]

14. I so agree. This is making me sick. Warren makes me sick. He's a smarmy phony.

The religion business has obviously been very very good to him.

[NightWatcher]

17. it's all about megachurches and selling books. What megachurch did Jesus preach at?

[earthlover]

19. Jesus didn't go to a church at all. He went to a Jewish temple....

[Raksha]

74. I guess if you really, REALLY wanna push it

you could call the Temple in Jerusalem a "megachurch," it being the state church and all. No separation of church and state back then.

But since I'm Jewish I'd really rather not go there.

[cliffordu]

15. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[Solly Mack]

16. I don't like it either.

[FatDave]

18. Can somebody organize an athiests' presidential forum?

Where we make both candidates pledge to fully respect the church/state separations? Wonder if either would show up.

[snappyturtle]

20. What you said. eom

[savistocate]

26. I'm not quite atheist--but that is valid &funny.

This 'thing' tho n o t funny. The part i listened i screamed at my tv
Putting a question out "do you believe in evil"!!!! While it is raging all around and not pointed to but called good or nothing--or 'standard of living'.
Could not and never ever stomach McWAR'morewar-drill-drill'CainCane-brain.
I have to read about it.
So few posts..maybe smartly being ignored.

[Skittles]

37. fyi

it is spelled A-T-H-E-I-S-T

[FatDave]

50. You're right, I always get that wrong.

Normally my spelling is impeckable.

[Runcible Spoon]

21. I'm with you.

:hug:

[blues90]

22. They can believe whatever they want just keep it in their church

That's not asking very much now is it? Personally I'm sick of the religion involved in everything. And to pander to it for votes seals it in politics where it does not belong.

[Runcible Spoon]

25. Yep. I hate how modern candidates HAVE to push Christianity and neoliberal economics,

like the two sacred cows that will never be up for slaughter in our current system. sigh.

[question everything]

23. It is Saddleback - from a range of two peaks (nt)

[NightWatcher]

29. I know, but by mocking the name, I am attempting to mock the institution

[stillcool]

27. Seeing how God, Guns and Gays..

are what this country cares about, those are the questions that 'we the people' want answered. Of course, with Obama being a radical black Muslim, his God, Gun, and Gay creds are even more important.

[savistocate]

31. Profound responses HERE...the pastor

looks incredibly like Falwell. He must be in that family..nephew. cousin.
Not convinced the stats he threw out are real. How many abortions..80% of Americans say faith groups do more effectively help needs of people.
As was said here the ___realities__ were not addressed there.
This will as he's thought expand his world...but not world view.

[CitizenPatriot]

28. vomit bag

they just asked mc cain to define marriage and he said the usual bs. what he did not say

was anything about the commitment in a marriage, which is much more important than the gender, for the person we're voting for. don't we need to see his "christianity" in action? how is he a christian when he does not discuss his own affairs, discuss the importance of honor, etc? GENDER? are you kidding me? what a loser.

and he's a christian but he "defeats" evil? did he read the same bible?

I feel so sick. please keep this crazy babbling cruel ironic without knowing it fool from getting into office.

my friends, i need a vomit bag. but bad.

[cynatnite]

30. Presidential campaigns are christianity contests now...

that's how low this country has sunk.

[Supersedeas]

32. Lincoln would have tanked in the Republican Party

[DU GrovelBot]

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[WoodyM]

34. Both candidates agreeing

to this is going to establish precedence for elections to come. It is a way for religion to gain an even bigger influence in our elections. Just how long will it be before other religions demand to have such recognition?

[CrispyQ]

52. Well said. But many on this board think we have to stoop to this to garner votes.

"...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

More & more, religion is being brought into our political discourse & our candidates are judged as to their answers on faith & personal belief. If that is not a religious test, what is?

Shall we abandon all our convictions for a few votes?

[skepticscott]

58. Technically it doesn't apply, but....

Since Warren is a private citizen and his church a private organization, they technically are not covered by that ban, but make no mistake...this is their way of ensuring that no one but a publicly confessed Christian can be elected president. People need to see this for what it is...an end run around the constitutional ban on religious tests for public office by the religious right.

[mahina]

35. And yet,

if it offends us we can turn it off, but if we want to lose with a margin that will keep the GOP from stealing a THIRD election we can't be queasy about fishing where there are fishes.

[Naturyl]

36. Agreed big time (n/t)

[Skittles]

38. it is sanctimonious garbage

:thumbsup:

[Martin Eden]

39. At least the format was even-handed

Both candidates had an hour to answer the same set of questions.

Let's face it -- the vast majority of Americans identify themselves as Christians, and the evangelicals constitute a huge bloc of voters. Those that watched this forum probably came away with a good impression of Obama. However, I wasn't too thrilled by the amount of applause generated by McCain's blatant pandering.

No doubt there was a degree of self-promotion by Rick Warren, and I agree there should be no kind of religious litmus test in our democracy. However, a candidate cannot ignore political reality. After being invited to this forum Obama had a decision to make, and I think he made the right one.

[skepticscott]

62. Well, even handed as far as the fundies are concerned

and despite their whack-a-doodle views on a lot of issues, they are, in the end, citizens and voters too and deserve to have the issues that matter to them recognized by the candidates (though not necessarily addressed in the way they want). The bigger problem I have is that the religious right gets a disproportionate amount of ass-kissing, of which this forum is a prime example. You can be dead certain that there will be no forum on liberal or progressive issues anywhere in our future. And both candidates have given the brush-off to a forum on science policy issues, which is practically criminal.

[Martin Eden]

83. Yes, we have a long way to go before we have a truly rational debate in this country

We are NOT the shining example of a functioning democracy we bill ourselves as.

On many levels.

[KharmaTrain]

40. Being Jewish...The Whole Thing Creeped My Family Out

We popped on for a few minutes of each half...prefering to watch the Olympics and pre-season football. There was nothing of substance being offered to me and my family...since we consider the New Testament nothing but a best seller and look at the religious right as both inclusionary and elitist. My grandparents came to this country to escape religious repression and intolerance...they'd be horrified at seeing what this country has turned into.

I know Obama walked into the "belly of tbe beast" last night, but the fact, in my world, it's still a beast...and the mindset of most in that audience would love to see me and my family condemned for our beliefs cause we don't believe in Jesus or feel that these goons hold the golden key on what is moral or not.

[sellitman]

49. Religon has no business in politics.

It corrupts both whatever government is allowing it and smears whatever religon allowed.

As a fellow Jew I too refused to watch.

[sellitman]

41. McCain was there to pander to the Fundies.

He won't win without their support.

On that note he did well.

As to why Obama was there...........?

[tbyg52]

44. >>As to why Obama was there...........?

R's would use it against him if he wasn't? Trying to pick up fundie votes? Free airtime?

Felt he had to/needed to for some reason. That's the scary part. This thing was creepy.

[Politicalboi]

60. Your Right

And if he didn't go the muslim title would really stick. There should be some written agreement that no candidate is to pander to religion. This is a slippery slope that we need to get off of fast. It's sad that Obama has to defend that he is not a muslim. If he were white this event probably never would have happened. Ron Paul would never attend this and no one would doubt that he wasn't Christian.

[Jawja]

43. Love your Avator, NightWatcher!

Goooooooo Dawgs!! :toast:

[pleah]

45. K&R

[Hidden Stillness]

46. This Corporate Production had Nothing to do with Religious People

This is not the first time that CNN has done a "forum" on what the corporate master is ordering us to think of as "faith" or "religion," (there was one several months ago called "Compassion Forum," if you can imagine all the arrogance it takes to ANNOUNCE YOURSELF as "compassionate"), and I did not listen to that one either. I don't know what mindset you have to have, exactly, to want to listen to this kind of presentation, it seems like more of a consultants' construct than something an audience was actually seeking, and I cannot imagine any interest at all from sincerely religious people. I am offended by the corporate media usurping spiritual issues and re-casting them so that they start echoing and "agreeing with" all of the new corporate/corrupt behavior, and offended by any displays of "I am so religious" blah blah, in front of an audience, that just make me cringe with embarrassment every time. As a deeply religious Christian here on DU, who reads the Bible and early Christian writers for fun, I despise a public show of it, and if you knew me, you would hardly guess how religious I am. It is SUPPOSED to be seemless, sincere, not put on for vainglorying! If you ask me, (listening to that prick blowhard Warren for a few minutes once on TV), the only group advanced here, were bigoted males. Why do "some" people think, that it isn't "official"--religion or anything else--until a male says it? This was not even slightly "religious"; it was corporate male.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. A disgusting display

My Grand pa was a devout Baptist from long ago. He'd say " a politician who says 'praise the Lord' is as honest as a harlot who says ' I love you'- only difference is God forgives the harlot."

[madamesilverspurs]

51. Watched the thing

from a hospital bed (tripped over a rug, ripped the knee but good!). As it happens, our local hospital has the FOX 'package' (multiple Fox channels, no MSNBC) for the television service, with only one alternative offered, CNN. As soon as the pastor explained that McCain was in a 'cone of silence' my thought was, "yeah, but what's he reading?" Smarmy. But the thought occured that if it made me hurl I was in a place that could deal with it.

Anyhow, it's ironic that the far-right can still peddle their version of the 'importance of faith' in political discourse, seeing as how their last two nominees for president (Bush and McCain) have had to shout repeatedly that they are 'christian,' because nobody but nobody would ever deduce such a thing by the way they have lived their lives. Beyond weird.

[DarbyUSMC]

53. Amen. I started to watch it but didn't last 5 minutes. I did like the first

comment Obama made, that could hardly be heard through the applause...... ("Like your tie." or "nice tie.") (My memory is not my strong suit anymore.) His humor is natural v. McCain's attempts at humor.

[wundermaus]

54. Religion and politics...

throw in a little Sex and Voilà - the holy trinity of M$M induced narcolepsy.

[tinkerbelle]

55. Couldn't agree more, nightwatcher...

if only the rapture would come and we could have a world without wing nuts (sigh).

[Baby Snooks]

56. "On second thought..."

You have to wonder how the founding fathers would look upon this. Based on what I've read through the years, and particularly framed by the Treaty of Tripoli, they would say "On second thought" and rewrite the 1st Amendment to restrict the freedom of speech that promotes hatred of and acts of violence against others and stated as an absolute that the United States of America was a country of all religions not just one and that no one religion or its religious teachings could be used as a basis for civil law in this country. And of course then made what became the 14th Amendment the 11th Amendment. And probably, for good measure, banned any Roman Catholic from sitting on the Supreme Court. Five to four is not a good thing. And probably banned Southern Baptists as well. Just in case. What they've done in several states is enough to scare most rational people. God forbid they ever control the Supreme Court.

Hindsight is always better than foresight. As it stands, until Congress changes it by an amendment, this country is obviously what some have claimed all along it is. A Christian nation. Despite the fact that it is not. Read the Treaty of Tripoli. And then accept that along with everything else written by the founding fathers, it means absolutely nothing at this point.

This forum was meant simply to strengthen the support for McCain since he is the only one who "toes the line" with the Christians. And like patriots, Christians have now been clearly defined. Define mainly along lines of a thin but clear line of morality. The few, the proud, the Christians.

And of course now we are headed to war with the godless communists once more. Who of course have a lot of oil. But the bottom line, or what the bottom line will become, is that they are godless communists. So, you see, the next president must prove his Christianity if we are to win the war. "Onward Christian soldiers..."

At this point I will skip the presidential race on the ballot in November. They both are disgusting.

[arthritisR_US]

59. I couldn't agree more! n/t

[LWolf]

61. Here's the first thing I didn't like, just seconds into it:

(edited to take the line numbers out, bolding mine.)

<snip>

NOW WE BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF FAITH AND POLITICS BECAUSE FAITH IS JUST A WORLD VIEW AND EVERYBODY HAS SOME KIND OF WORLD VIEW AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.

http://www.rickwarrennews.com/transcript/

I support a deep, wide, strong separation of church and state. I do not support narrowing or blurring that separation. I've been unhappy with Obama's seeming willingness to do so throughout his entire campaign.

Warren's statement above is about as blatant a castration of that separation as you can get. I don't see a whole hell of a lot of difference between church and faith, at least not when "faith" means the doctrine that an organized religion is teaching. And that's what they were there for, isn't it? To question candidates on issues of doctrine. I don't see a whole hell of a lot of difference between politics and state, since politics DRIVES the government.

Add this to the growing list of orwellian propaganda that rules the nation.

[tnlefty]

63. I couldn't agree with you more!

I'm sick of religion and politics being mixed.

[RainDog]

65. The Religious Right is the beard for Republican proclivities

Leo Strauss was very articulate about the need to promote a belief in god. Apparently the most idiotic belief was preferable simply b/c those people who believe these things are the most gullible, maybe?

So the religious right gets money for the mega churches and the neocons get to invade nations illegally and torture innocent people and rape children and refuse to help our own dying citizens in New Orleans while giving govt. contractors BILLIONS to do shoddy work and to profit from the wars the neo-cons start but the people on the RR, or the people most vulnerable to the RR send their children to die for these wars of aggression because, after all, the leaders of the churches get big fucking bucks to sell their congregations into debt slavery and feed them into the neo-con killing machine. But it's all right because gee-zeus is coming back to the earth either before or after all the good christians are raptured and the everyone who did not think just as they did can be left to wallow in hell for eternity because, hey, they tried to telllllll youuuu.

yes, vomit bag, please.

the RR is why this nation is so fucked up right now. the neo-cons couldn't win without their support.

[Golden Raisin]

66. Bravo and thank you. Totally agree.

I'd say, "Bless you" for your post, but that's probably an inappropriate response given the subject matter. I find it exceedingly disturbing (whatever their individual motivations) that we have reached a point in this country where both candidates felt it necessary and perhaps imperative to appear on a panel hosted not by a civic organization such as the League of Women Voters but a religious organization.

[pollo poco]

67. Hate it

Totally inappropriate.
Totally useless.
Instead of pandering to the bronze age believers among us, Obama and the party should be cracking down on election fixing.
That would ensure victory. Nothing else will.

But you can't even get them to talk about it.

We went through this roller coaster ride in 2004, because they didn't want to deal with it after 2000.
Now, we're supposed to approach this election all eager to support the candidates, and earnestly discuss the nuances of the race.

The only subject fit for our discussion is the corporate takeover of our voting system.
The rest is moot.

I am tired of this stupid ride.
Stupid stupid stupid stupid.

[GreenPartyVoter]

68. I couldn't agree with you more

[Canuckistanian]

69. This forum is just bizarre, considering other problems facing the country

A brutal and expensive war. An economic meltdown. Unemployment. Infrastructure crumbling.

Exactly how is a president's spiritual beliefs supposed to solve these problems?

[Runcible Spoon]

75. because another president's spiritual beliefs were partially responsible for getting us INTO those

problems. And if you don't buy it that Bush is sincere in his fundie zeal, you surely can't question the faith of those in his army, leadership of many social institutions, and his voting block who empowered him to commit these atrocities. Yes, I would say the role of religion is QUITE important in getting some idea how any politician is going to act. It corresponds not only with a belief system which guides decisions, but on the kind of people that will receive funding and power.

[Canuckistanian]

79. Well then, by that logic

Wouldn't the voters be fleeing from a self-confessed Christian, especially one endorsed by the most fanatical wing of Christianity?

[Runcible Spoon]

81. DOH! I misread a word in your original reply. we are on the same page here!

I don't think Obama is doing much good reaching out to fundies in terms of winning votes; I think he knows this and the biggest reason he's doing these forums is to dispel the Muslim extremist label, if you want my honest assessment.

**on edit, I misread a word in your original post I was replying to. We are exactly on the same page here :P

[TheCentepedeShoes]

70. The whole thing

gave me a serious case of the squirms.
And, yeah, I think McThuselah cheated.

[Enthusiast]

71. Wholeheartedly agree with you!

My God transcends human created, dogma oriented organized religion.

[DearAbby]

73. K&R

:thumbsup:

[MzNov]

76. Jesus didn't get this country into the deep mess it's in,

that was the right wing criminal mob for the past 20 years....

and Jesus sure as hell isn't going to dig us out of 8 years of Chucklenuts and the Bush Crime Family.

If there were any chance at all that religion should play a part in finding a competent President, then I certainly would ask a non-existent Jesus to quit screwing around and send us CANDIDATES WHO ARE NOT AFRAID TO STAND UP TO THESE NEO-CON HYPOCRITICAL "RELIGIOUS" FREAKS!!!!

<>

[skepticscott]

77. Don't be so sure

A significant driving force of our (screwed-up) Middle East policy, including our contemplated bombing of Iran, is the desire of radical Christian Zionists' to see Israel protected at all costs and the Holy Land completely under their control. Only that way, they believe, can their non-existent savior return to earth and slaughter everyone but them in the most horrible ways possible.

[MzNov]

78. And that isn't working out so well for them either.

[Runcible Spoon]

82. exactly the thing I was thinking...

Fundies really preach bringing on the nuclear Rapture :scared: